Genetics of the British and Irish people

[Maciamo]

Population studies use historical, archeological, linguistic, place-name and surname evidences to determine the ethnic origins of the people found in a specific region.

DNA tests now offer a more reliable way to confirm the previous hypothesis. Various research projects are under way, including several testing ancient or medieval DNA to see the genetic evolution of the studied population in time.

This thread aims at gathering and comparing the results and conclusions of each study available for Britain and Ireland. Here are a few links :

1) Excavating Past Population Structures by Surname-Based Sampling: The Genetic Legacy of the Vikings in Northwest England : aim at assessing the genetic impact of Norwegian Vikings in West Lancashire and the Wirral Peninsula. Comparison with samples from Norway, Orkney, the Shetlands, the Isle of Man, Cheshire, Anglesey, etc.

Summary :

• Percentage of Scandinavian admixture in modern populations (average with other studies cited) : Anglesey (10%), Western Scotland (15%), Mid-Cheshire (21%), Western Isles and Skye (22.5%), Cumbria (37%), Wirral and West Lancashire (38%), Isle of Man (39%), Orkey (40%), Shetlands (42.5%).
  
• Comparison with medieval samples : Wirral (47%), West Lancashire (51%)

2) People of the British Isles : genetic comparison of the British population by region. The main purpose is medical, to create a map of genetic diseases in the UK. 3500 people tested in 30 different rural regions. The target date for collecting the sample is January 2009, so the final results won't be published before that.

3) Tracing the Phylogeography of Human Populations in Britain Based on 4th-11th Century mtDNA Genotypes : analysis of ancient and medieval British mtDNA samples to assess the importance of female migrations of Roman, Anglo-Saxon and Viking origin. Unfortunately, the conclusion isn't clear because of too limited samples. Results from Roman and early Saxon cemterries were merged under "Early Ancient" to add to the confusion.

4) Y Chromosome Evidence for Anglo-Saxon Mass Migration : attempts to find evidence of an Anglo-Saxon mass migration to central England (East Anglia and Midlands) by comparing Y-DNA haplotypes of Wales, central England, Friesland and Norway.

Conclusion : samples from central England and Friesland are almost undistinguishable. proving that a massive proportion of central English people descend from the Anglo-Saxons. Conversely, samples in North Wales and Norway were quite different.

5) Genetic evidence for different male and female roles in the British Isles : attempts to estimate the impact of successive migrations on the genetic make-up of Britain, by comparing the Y-DNA, mtDNA and X-chromosome in Wales, England and Orkney to Ireland, Norway, Friesland, the Basques (closet assumed descendent of the Paleolithic Europeans), the Anatolian Turks and Syrians (bothassociated with the source population of the Neolithic migrations).

[Maciamo]

Assessing the percentage of Viking paternal lineages in the UK and Ireland

We know little of the ethnic composition of Britain prior to the Roman and Anglo-Saxon invasions. The Ancient Britons were supposedly all Celts, belonging to haplogroup R1b. But there might have been earlier Germanic migrations. Nobody is sure of the actual impact of the Angles, Jutes and Saxon on the present population of Britain. However, it is possible to estimate the share of the later Scandinavian settlers.

Based on the assumption that haplogroup R1a was brought to the UK "almost exclusively" by the Vikings, we could calculate the percentage of paternal "Viking blood" in the British Isles by multiplying the percentage of R1a relative to its proportion in the source population. Vikings raiding Britain and Ireland came either from Denmark (in Eastern England) or Norway (Scotland, North-Western England, Wales, Ireland).

England

At present the proportion of R1a in Denmark is about 12 to 15%, against 27 to 30% in Norway.

To simplify things, let's say that England was exclusively Danish. There are 4.5% of R1a in England, 3x less than in Denmark. It would mean that 1/3 of the English have Danish Y-DNA. As Denmark has 45% of R1b, 30% of I1 and 5% of I2b1, it should be expected that about 15% of R1b, 10% of I1 and 1.5% of I2b1 in England are also of Danish origins.

This would leave about 52% of R1b, 4% of I1 and 3% of I2b1 of Anglo-Saxon or Celtic origins. Considering that the Celts were almost exclusively R1b and that the Anglo-Saxons came from Frisia, where R1b-S21+ is dominant, it makes sense to find such low percentage of I1 and I2b1.

In fact, the Netherlands and North Germany have a similar ration of I1 to I2b1 of 4 to 3 or 3 to 2, while in Norway the ration is about 35 to 1 and in Denmark 6 to 1.

Still in the Netherlands, compared to R1b the proportion of I1 is about 4.5 to 1, while it is 7 to 1 for I2b1.

If the above estimations are right, there should be 4.5x more Frisian R1b than I1 and 7x more than I2b1. So between 18% and 21% of the English males could be R1b of Anglo-Saxon/Frisian origins. This would leave about 32% of the population being R1b of Ancient Briton origin.

The rest of the population is made of Near-Eastern (E3b, J, G, K) and Balkanic (E3b, I2) lineages that came with the Neolithic farmers or during the Roman occupation.

In summary, the population of England could be composed of :

- 31.5% of Ancient Briton paternal lineages
- 11% of Near-Eastern paternal lineages
- 26.5% of Anglo-Saxon/Frisian paternal lineages (19.5% R1b + 4% I1 + 3% I2b1)
- 31% of Danish Viking paternal lineages (15% R1b + 4.5% of R1a + 10% I1 + 1.5% I2b1)

Because a low percentage of R1a in fact probably came with the Anglo-Saxons, it is likely that the above calculations overestimated the proportion of Vikings and underestimated that of the Anglo-Saxons.

One way of confirming the overall proportion would be to know the percentage of R1b subclades. S116- would be either Frisian or Danish, and should make about 55% of all R1b (i.e. 35% of the population). It will be very difficult to distinguish between Frisian and Danish R1b, as they are basically the same. But it does not matter so much as they are basically the same people.

R1b-S28+ is found at a higher percentage in Denmark than the Netherlands. However it is most common in Jutland, which was a source for both the Anglo-Saxon and Viking migrants. What is more, some S28+ might have come much earlier (1st or 2nd century BCE) with Belgic tribes from northern Gaul.

The real native Briton subclades like M222, M167 or M37, or just R1b-S116+* should reach about 30% in England, with the highest concentration in the South and West.

Scotland

The case of Scotland should be easier than England. The proportion of R1a and I1 are almost equal, which would mean that almost all the Germanic blood there came from Norway, accounting for about 28% of the Scottish male lineages. There are under 6% of Near-Eastern lineages, and about 66% of Celtic lineages, with a high proportion of R1b-M222+.

Ireland

Ireland is more complicated because the actual number of Viking settlers was probably quite limited, but Germanic haplogroups account for about 25% of the male lineages. The reason is that many English people settled in Ireland, bringing with them I1, R1a and R1b-S21 haplogroups. To make things even more complex, Northern Ireland has a lot of fairly recent Scottish lineages, who also brought Norwegian R1a and I1a with them.

R1a makes up some 3% of the Irish population. With the same reasoning as for England above, Norwegian Vikings lineages should account for about 9% (with 3% of R1b and 3% of I1).

This is unlikely, because of the higher proportion of R1b-S21 (11%), I1 (7%), I2b1 (4%), but also R1b-S28 (6.5%), which could also be Dutch, Danish or Norwegian, or maybe also from an earlier Belgic migration (which is documented). Let's say that 3.5% of R1b-S28 is Belgic, and 3% came later.

This way we have 14% of R1b, 7% of I1, 4% of I2b1 and 3% of R1a. This pattern doesn't match at all the Norwegian population, but fits right in between the Dutch and Danish one, pointing at an admixture, like the one found among the English.

Many surnames in Ireland are also English, further confirming that a big part of the Irish population (about one fourth) is of English descent on their paternal side.

[carpathia]

the Y-DNA of the Basque, Irish and North Welsh are closely related to each others,

this has been disproven by ongoing dna science..

the only thing all have in common is that they are all R1b as is 70%+ of the rest of europe..

the Irish and Basque populations are uncommonly isolated unlike continental europe, and both of those populations have a SNP associated with their own 'nationality' specifically.. the Welsh on the other hand share no SNP in common or with the other two groups.. north wales is also heavily E3b unlike either ireland/basques..

[Cambrius (The Red)]

this has been disproven by ongoing dna science..

the only thing all have in common is that they are all R1b as is 70%+ of the rest of europe..

the Irish and Basque populations are uncommonly isolated unlike continental europe, and both of those populations have a SNP associated with their own 'nationality' specifically.. the Welsh on the other hand share no SNP in common or with the other two groups.. north wales is also heavily E3b unlike either ireland/basques..

Would you be able to provide some scientific references to buttress your points?

[Maciamo]

this has been disproven by ongoing dna science..

the only thing all have in common is that they are all R1b as is 70%+ of the rest of europe..

the Irish and Basque populations are uncommonly isolated unlike continental europe, and both of those populations have a SNP associated with their own 'nationality' specifically.. the Welsh on the other hand share no SNP in common or with the other two groups.. north wales is also heavily E3b unlike either ireland/basques..

I said that their Y-DNA is closely related. I didn't say autosomal DNA. They have in common a very high frequency of Y-DNA hg R1b1b2a. That's all I am saying.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I said that their Y-DNA is closely related. I didn't say autosomal DNA. They have in common a very high frequency of Y-DNA hg R1b1b2a. That's all I am saying.

Yes, the Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). As is well known, a number of Atlantic European populations are AMH, including Ireland, Wales, Brittany, Cornwall, parts of Scotland as well as areas of central-north to northern Portugal and central and northern Spain.

[carpathia]

Would you be able to provide some scientific references to buttress your points?

all of europe falls into basically the same broad, genetic holding category of the general SNP's discovered, with a few exceptions-

to state the irish, welsh, and basque are closely or especially related is not true, as two have their own group-specific SNP, and certain historical regions within wales have unusually high frequency of E3b Hg.. and are not at all related, while the welsh R population does NOT share the basque / irish SNP's..

Basque= R / SNP M153/H102
Ireland(and irish-invaded western scotland) = R SNP M222

Wales = no M153, little M222, pockets of lots of E3b

(with conflicting ancestral SNP's it is totally inaccurate.. WRONG... to claim they are more closely related than other R populations..although this claim they are closer genetically to one another would SEEM logical, the current SNP information disproves the claim)

"Data obtained by "A Y Chromosome Census of The British Isles" show that the highest levels of E3b were found
in areas with a known history of Roman settlement. In addition to Southwell, these include Uttoxeter in the midlands,
Dorchester and Faversham in southern England, and towns in Wales, like Llangefni and Llanidloes, where the Romans
established forts and mined for gold and lead."

Another important fact..
S21/S28 claims of restricted regions of nothern europe also are largely concocted by those with a agenda to claim them as 'saxon' or 'viking'.. or such..

the 'studies' of these claims are fanciful and NOT peer reviewed and most originate from hobbysists,
particularly a guy named David Faux who has promoted this, and although he is a credentialed scientist, he has a website asserting he is provably paternally from THE CIMBRI TRIBE.. based only on his DNA which is standard, common, AMH R1b.. which is totally without any credibility.

You have to be careful.. really careful with some of these claims, as a few individuals make these far-fetched assertions that they cannot really support, BUT FOR PERSONAL REASONS WANT TO BE TRUE, and in a short time, lots of others are spouting these claims as fact, when their is no basis for it.

[Chris]

Another important fact..
S21/S28 claims of restricted regions of nothern europe also are largely concocted by those with a agenda to claim them as 'saxon' or 'viking'.. or such..

Could you give your source(s) for this fact, and/or elaborate?

[carpathia]

Could you give your source(s) for this fact, and/or elaborate?

The commercial development of the S21 and S28 SNP's were initially the realm of a private for-profit company named ''Ethnoancestry''. The head of Ethnoancestry at that time was a credentialed Canadian scientist named 'David Faux'.

I will not link to his still extant web sites as they are so filled with wild conjecture and extravagant claims that all it will do is lead some of those who see this to uncritically accept his assertions..

As stated before, Faux, who is a canadian of english origin, is so bold in his claims that he has a web page that insists, not merely offers a possibility, but outright asserts that he is paternally a descendant of the CIMBRI tribe of Jutland..
Google ' cimbri david faux ' if you want to see the literary works of these SNP's purveyor, but I will not post the link as it is absolute garabge to put mildly. The below quotes in Bold are also pronouncements from Faux's DNA testing business, and if you want the source google it, as I will not post links to this man. He is a discredited laughing stock in the community of geneticists.

Now, back to the SNP's directly-

In 2005 Ethnoancestry located two markers which may break through what was once an impregnible barrier. With the prosaic names of S21 (R1b1c9) and S28 (R1b1c10) these markers on the Y chromosome, known as single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), .."

Faux had Almost immediately proclaimed that -
"To date it appears that S21 in Britain marks "Anglo - Saxon"

and that,

S28 is seen further east and in England only in what is known as the "Danelaw" which appears to mark Danish Viking in those who possess it.


The S28 marker was developed by his company from his own personal genetic study AFTER he personally tested ANCESTRAL (not 'derived' / positive) for the hyped S21 SNP.
Faux reportedly 'commisioned' a study on himself, resulting in S28, at the Ethnoancestry Lab, to find his own 'elite' SNP and to build himself a R1b 'clade' to prove his ''cimbri hypothesis'',
and very convieniently it 'turned out' to establish that the bearer (Faux himself) was a 'danish viking descendant' per his own web page pronouncement, PRIOR to ANY STUDY being undertaken.

Never mind the absurd connotation of Faux's equation of differing SNP's for the ''Anglo-Saxons'' and the ''Danelaw Vikings'', who are the SAME SOURCE POPULATION from the same locale!!

Faux had already hyped S21 as the Danish/germanic SNP, and when his own crazed ''I am a Cimbri" assertion was threatened by his 'ancestral' / negative result, he had to differentiate a germanic/continental origin for His OWN S28 ancestral result to maintain his Cimbri nonsense, but NOT anger the S21 crowd,
so he built a theory/study that satisfied both groups pre-conceptions but was factually totally invalid.

The study that was completed on these SNP's was comical, if not for the fact that it facilicitated a marketing campaign that sold a lot of these SNP test, under the assertion that they offered insight into a localized paternal ancestry origin for the bearer.
The 'study' Faux offered up utilised the self-funded study participants that had already paid for their own tests and offered him their biographical details/origin..
As most of these original particpants were american or canadian,
Almost all originated in North West Europe,
and a majority had roots in the British Isles and many likely had shaky factual knowledge of the actual region.

These were allowed to stand as the representatives of the ENGLISH, DANISH, GERMAN, FRISIAN..etc. sources in the study,
while the other regions that Faux had a interest in minimising as bearers of this SNP were allowed to be taken from a very limited sampling of several european source populations not historically connected to the 'Cimbri theory' that Faux had bestowed upon himself.

This resulted in a scheme where the near entirety of Faux's contingent of S21 derived self-funders were combined with the remainder of his self-funded N/W Euro R1b, but non-S21 derived, to reach high levels of S21 ancestry found proportionally for the supposedly 'Cimbric-related' populations including the English.
The S21 SNP, and later S28, was already fanatically hyped by ethnoancestry during this period as the ""R1B germanic SNP", and the study to undergird the claim was undertaken after a pool of other 'derived' participants had been assembled.
A legitimate study would reach its conclusions AFTER a study had been properly devised and executed to support the thesis, not before hand.

In contrast, the allegedly non-cimbri related euro populations were very small contingents of participants that included all R1b results from those populations outside of northwest europe and the claim was that the freq. of occurance diminished significantly..
These were partially self-funded participants but much smaller population samples for these locales.

So, although I cannot absolutely assert that Faux manipulated the studies with a eye toward selling regionalized continental european SNP tests,
1)I can tell you that he promised in advance what the tests would show his customers, who also paid their own way,
2)He privately controlled all the test results in advance, and assembled them from results his own company had performed, in a frankenstein-like creation of a paper that was engineered to look like a scientific study,
3)he has a history of making bizarre and unprovable assertions about his own ancestry reaching back to tribal pre-contact jutland that are not credible.

While S21 / S28 ARE a significant portion of the Northwest european gene pool, trying to equate these SNP with specific cultures in exclusivity is not supported, nor are the national distributions which have never been funded to create such a SNP snapshot, across the EU..

From a funding standpoint, the sources selling these tests would not be able to undertake such a study incorporating randomly selected, but later providenced participants, across a wide geographical range, even if 100% of their profits from these test were used to fund them.. the travel / lodging costs required alone would bankrupt a company such as ethnoancestry.
Any such undertaking would be in the millions of euros to accomplish properly, it would require massive lab resources, and no one has ever done it. Those offered assurances as to these SNP establishing certain Geographical boundaries/population frequencies are the sources selling the SNP testing, and if you take that as what it truely is... it is advertising.

[Chris]

Thanks for that - very interesting. (I know nothing about the technicalities of this stuff, and am very interested in the 'so what' factor, having had my deep subclade results). What conclusions do you draw, as opposed to the above?

Maciamo - you're also very knowledgeable it seems to me; what's your view?

[Maciamo]

Another important fact..
S21/S28 claims of restricted regions of nothern europe also are largely concocted by those with a agenda to claim them as 'saxon' or 'viking'.. or such..

S21 and S28 are very different. S21 is common in northern Europe, and especially around the Netherlands and northern Germany. On the other hand, S28 is most common around the Alps, Italy, France, Belgium and southern Germany. What is amazing is how little S28 there is in northern Germany. At present it is almost non-existent. So S28 is in no way associated with the Saxons or the Vikings.

[martin parra]

S21 and S28 are very different. S21 is common in northern Europe, and especially around the Netherlands and northern Germany. On the other hand, S28 is most common around the Alps, Italy, France, Belgium and southern Germany. What is amazing is how little S28 there is in northern Germany. At present it is almost non-existent. So S28 is in no way associated with the Saxons or the Vikings.

I am tested for the R dna s21+.. my family is from mexico but before then to spain. I match exact the VILLA from spain in testing- not from germany, VILLA family is spain.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

of all of the study most are from angland, so I am also from the english, no?

I count of family tree S21+ study total is 744 people.

369 english people from america,
212 other british people living inside of england still,
and only 158 people so far across all of the europe on this study.

almost all s21 totals is of the english origin.

I think this comes not from germany but from england, as the results shows. I would like to find how my family go from england to spain, then mexico, thank you my friends

[Chris]

almost all s21 totals is of the english origin.

As far as I have discovered, the S21 population of England originated in northern Europe, mainly northern Germany and Frisia. So S21 isn't of English origin.

[Maciamo]

I am tested for the R dna s21+.. my family is from mexico but before then to spain. I match exact the VILLA from spain in testing- not from germany, VILLA family is spain.

Interesting. You can be descended from Vandals, Suebi or Visigoths who settled in Spain in the 5th century. From which part of Spain did you family originated before moving to Mexico ?

almost all s21 totals is of the english origin.

That's only because commercial tests are more popular in the British Isles than elsewhere in Europe. The country with the highest percentage of S21 is actually the Netherlands.

[martin parra]

Interesting. You can be descended from Vandals, Suebi or Visigoths who settled in Spain in the 5th century. From which part of Spain did you family originated before moving to Mexico ?



That's only because commercial tests are more popular in the British Isles than elsewhere in Europe. The country with the highest percentage of S21 is actually the Netherlands.

I am mostly of the indians of mexico I am not white, so I do not know if spain but this is the home of the Parra familys origin.

I do not see the europeans having part in test being of this type.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

why are the white american used in these test only, instead of europemen ?

all the many tests are done on these white americans, but not on the europeans instead.
This is why I think, these test show of americans that are from england not the germans to this type of genes. Only the study on europe can show this, I think. Where is the study on this gene that can be found complete of europeans? thank you.

[dnabuff]

Your MtNa is J? That indicates Phoenicians and Arabs and some Greek

[Wilhelm]

Your MtNa is J? That indicates Phoenicians and Arabs and some Greek

Actually Not. I think you are confusing dna-Y J, with mtDNA J.
The mtDNA J distribution in Europe is as follows :

• J* = Ireland - 12%, England-Wales - 11%, Scotland - 9%, Orkney - 8%, Germany - 7%, Russia (European) - 7%, Iceland - 7%, Austria-Switzerland - 5%, Finland-Estonia - 5%, Spain-Portugal - 4%, France-Italy - 3%
• J1a = Austria-Switzerland - 3%
• J1b1 = Scotland - 4%
• J2 = France-Italy - 2%
• J2a = Homogenously spread in Europe. Absent in the nations around the Caucasus. Not known to be found elsewhere.

[rms2]

Actually Not. I think you are confusing dna-Y J, with mtDNA J.
The mtDNA J distribution in Europe is as follows :

• J* = Ireland - 12%, England-Wales - 11%, Scotland - 9%, Orkney - 8%, Germany - 7%, Russia (European) - 7%, Iceland - 7%, Austria-Switzerland - 5%, Finland-Estonia - 5%, Spain-Portugal - 4%, France-Italy - 3%
• J1a = Austria-Switzerland - 3%
• J1b1 = Scotland - 4%
• J2 = France-Italy - 2%
• J2a = Homogenously spread in Europe. Absent in the nations around the Caucasus. Not known to be found elsewhere.

Aside from that, dnabuff was asking a question of a man who cannot answer because he has been banned (for good reason) and about a post from back in July.

But I think you are right, anyway.

[Eireannach]

New here. I'm L21 from Ireland.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Also R-L21 from Alto-Minho, NW Portugal.

[Eireannach]

Assessing the percentage of Viking paternal lineages in the UK and Ireland

Ireland

Many surnames in Ireland are also English, further confirming that a big part of the Irish population (about one fourth) is of English descent on their paternal side.

Many surnames in Ireland are English because when they were translated from Gaelic into English, the English translators gave names that sounded similar to English names e.g. Ó Coileáin is anglicised to the english name Collins, hence there are many Collins in Ireland, most of whom are indigenous.

Also a name like Smith is common in Ireland but this again is mostly as a result of translating Irish names into english. Mac an Gabhain (literally translates as the son of the smith) was changed to Smith and and also the anglicsized MacGowan.

[Maciamo]

Many surnames in Ireland are English because when they were translated from Gaelic into English, the English translators gave names that sounded similar to English names e.g. Ó Coileáin is anglicised to the english name Collins, hence there are many Collins in Ireland, most of whom are indigenous.

Also a name like Smith is common in Ireland but this again is mostly as a result of translating Irish names into english. Mac an Gabhain (literally translates as the son of the smith) was changed to Smith and and also the anglicsized MacGowan.

Nevertheless there is a small, but substantial percentage of Irish people who are clearly of English descent. The English have started settling in Ireland since Norman times. Most of the big landowners from the 16th century until the 19th century were English.

[Eireannach]

Nevertheless there is a small, but substantial percentage of Irish people who are clearly of English descent. The English have started settling in Ireland since Norman times. Most of the big landowners from the 16th century until the 19th century were English.

Of course there is a percentage of Irish people of English descent. But it would be no where near 25%. Most of the big landowners were absentee landlords or arisitocratic planters who did not intermarry with any native Irish. They were and in some cases still are bascially English people born in Ireland and adhere to English customs. Even to this day (although their numbers are so tiny) many of these send their children to school in England.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I've read somewhere that the percentage of Irish folk of English descent totals about 10-15%.

[Trollhattan]

In summary, the population of England could be composed of :

- 31.5% of Ancient Briton paternal lineages
- 11% of Near-Eastern paternal lineages
- 26.5% of Anglo-Saxon/Frisian paternal lineages (19.5% R1b + 4% I1 + 3% I2b1)
- 31% of Danish Viking paternal lineages (15% R1b + 4.5% of R1a + 10% I1 + 1.5% I2b1)

Because a low percentage of R1a in fact probably came with the Anglo-Saxons, it is likely that the above calculations overestimated the proportion of Vikings and underestimated that of the Anglo-Saxons.

I have read " indigenous English " is a controversy subject in England.

I've suspected indigenous population of Celtic-Breton origin accounts for a significant percentage of English genetics.I think it's native Bretons lost their ethnic identity to the Anglo-Saxon majority.It's common belief among English nationals I met online,that English are predominately " Germanic " closely related to Dutch & Scandinavians & Germans.A few even told me that they do feel kinship toward those European peoples.