Politics The case of Macedonia

[iapetoc]

Well where the hell is the Slavic R1a then? It seems to me that you don't understand the problem.

If it is Thracian than it cannot be Hellenic.

not exactly,

many times I try to connect Thracians with I2a2, But i was wrong, and I ahve to admit that,

Macciamo and Julia told me hat ancient Thracian Y-Dna qas R1a,

the R1a of Greek Macedonia also can be found in Magna Grecia, an area that is not Slavic at all,

if you look the maps of How Yes No you will see that enough R1a pre-slavic also exist in Magna Grecia in area of Sarento,

ancient Thracians had R1a surely,

ancient Thracians are consider Pre-Slavic by some, or Daci for others or even Goths to an extra possibility,

Greeks pushed Pieri-Thracians to east while Vrygians moved to minor asia, and the space occupied by Greeks,
the case of Pieri - Vrygians - Paiones is strange as also the Getae and the Triballi and Odryssee,

seems like Thracians were 3 mainly or Sub Nations,
you can read about in a thread,


Now R1a today is cinsidered
1) Germanic
2) Balto-slavic
3) Turkish by some especially in Turkey,

but an ancient R1a existed in Balkans,

a possibility that a R1b passed and moved West is Certain, but mostly today R1b in Greece is Romano-Celtic.

the Case of G2a3 in Greece is know from Pelasgians,
Pelasgians split to many and one of them is Thyrrenians,
Etruscan Y-Dna is found mostly G2a

J1 and J2 is considered Greek (some DYS of them) but J2 language was not IE but Pelasgian-Thyrrenian
so who gave IE language to greeks,

E-V13 came to balkans at 2000 BC estimated by some searchers

a possibility that Myceneans were R1b from minor asia that enter Greece is A) change
the possibility of Myceneans were R1a from steppes or Minor Asia (Hettit) is B) chance

The Driopes being R1a is a most possible chance

the rest are not consider IE by what we know today.

the case of R1a in South Italy - Magna Grecia gives connection among Greeks and R1a,

ancient Greeks had R1a among others,
the case of Agrinio an area that was not invaded that much, almost isolated,
that has enough I2 while Agrinion King Agrios had son the Paeon (Paeonnians- area of Skopje) as also the names of Paeonian Kings and Tribes (Agrianes = sons of Agrios)
also the Vrygian remained words and their connection with Ancient Makedonians,
seems like Thracians were 4 groups, the Greco-Thracians like Vrygians Pieri and Paeoni,
the Daci-Getae Thracians, the Illyro-Thracians, The central Thracians (Odrysse-Triballi-etc)

Linguistic of Homer seems like the IE of Greek is mostly towards English and Slavic
while is far from Latin,
Pelasgian elements are included also, but mostly in later Hesiodus,
so Pelasgians existed in Homers time, But mostly unite with Greeks after Troy and Sea peoples,

Pelasgians is the other part that existed in Balkans, Mostly in Greece, Albania, and South and East Thrace,
Pelasgians dwell lake Lychnitis today Ochrid before the arrive of Makedonians and King Karamos.
the 3rd ancient is Celts, mostly lived west of Dinaric Alps


now about modern case of Makedonia, Fyrom,

Yes you are right,
In 1900 lived more Slavic people in Greek Makedonia, and more Greeks in Fyrom
also in Bulgaria lived more Greeks, and Serbia,
After WW1
Greeks of Serbia either left, either change their names to -ic and became Serbs.
same happened with Serbs of Greek Makedonia.
Greeks of Bulgaria mostly exchanged with Bulgarians from Greece.

since I am from a village that is connected from Ancient times with Argeiad Dynasty. don't tell me about Makedonia, and ansk Butaris. I live here with my Family before 1000 of Years,
Before 1900 there were only Vlachs(Aromani), Greeks, Serbs, and Bugari (watch:Bugari not Bulgarians), Roma and Turks (Turks are considered both Turk-albans and Ottomans Arnaut and Turks)
After that
Greece did not wanted to expand in Skopje cause that area was never Greek, in anciety was Paeonia,
now about minority of Slavic Speaking people in Greece mostly change with Bulgaria,
while Serbs moved to Skopje.

At that time we Have Bardarska,
later after WW2 Greek communist decide to Become Fyromians and MAC-Donaldians,

Butaris major of Thessaloniki is an Aromani-Vlach that wants to be progressive and support Fyrom Issue cause he was an ex-Communist.
besides Butaris support Free Porn under 18 years old, support Gay mariage in Church, and is well known for his Alcoolism,
He is the only major that was in TV Drunken for 5 Minutes saying nothing, just looking, Got Drunken to the limit,
Butaris spend millions to became major, for more than 20 years now.

the case of Fyrom, that Unites Greeks Serbs Albanians and Bulgarians, is just out of Discuss,
A paper treaty is in power only if All accept it,
The Turks manage to create a diplomacy problem in Balkans,
while Mother Russia pushed Pan-slavism,

now about who must have the name of Makedonia,
For Greeks the connection is with Blood, from anciety,
is connection with Linguistic, and Koine-Hellenistic,
is connection with History and memmories of a Nations,

For you is just geographical term that must give to your unification movement a name,
well since some of you Lived in Original Makedonia and not Paeonia or Bardaska after Serbian Dusan, or Bulgarian Cymeon and Samuel invations in Makedonia,
and since Romans name Skopje Makedonia, well
Greek Gave you the opportunity, to live in peace both countries, by accepting the word Slavic infront, or Bardarian (Slavic Makedonia, Bardarian Makedonia)
But no, your Patrons suggest you to claim Alexander, to claim that Alexander spoke Slavic, although archaiology proves opposite, and to claim Lands,
you are the only ones in Planet That say that Modern Greeks of Macedonia are Slavic, Speak Slavic etc, while even Turkish Census prove that Greeks were majority after Turk citizens in Greek Makedonia,
you have your own land, stop Bullshit before Greece start Demanding Lands from Fyrom of Greek Minority, (pappers still exist) and starts to discuss rights of Albanian and Bulgarian minority,

we are Here 000 of years before Dusan or Cymeon
and we don't know for how long we will be,


Now about the photo of Germanos Karavaggelis, I have more to show you, with Fyromians next to Nazi-Germans, or Bulgarians burning Villages in Makedonia,
as also about Sandasky the Famous Bulgarian criminal that killed 75 Greeks under Turkish command,
there are many photos of Sandasky and Bulgarians with Turks also,
we never wanted your lands or your culture,
you invade from Dusan times and today you claim the lands,
well we will not give you them with out a fight, cause we were here before Dusan.
Stop Bullshit
All R1a are not Slavic,
or maybe for You south Italy is also Slavic.
Stop blame Greece for your problems, and start to concern about your people, by building monuments and statues, you simply cover a lie that even majority of Fyrom doesn't believe.

it is another thing the Ancient Makedonia,
another the Roman Makedonia.

I wonder in school what you tell to kids that Alexander was slavic and Dusan was Greek?
!!!!!!



Yes I have to admit that ancient Thracians were R1a although being I2 solve many problems and Questions
But the R1a is Greek colonies proves that IE speaking Greeks were also R1a

 

[iapetoc]

Why you lie my friend?
greece would never leave macedonians to speak their language in greece like you dont leave Albanians speak Albanian in greece!

yes offcourse 1,5 000 000 Albanians that came from 1990 and after speak every day Albanian and we hear them every were in the streats, nothing happened,
indeed I live next to Paralia, every summer 500 000 Fyromians came, and speak Slavic, what happened to them? who forbid them?

At least Greeks do not kill someone that spoke another language in his store, as Albanian Nationalist did.
thanks God Albanian Goverment act fast and arrest the scums

Now who is telling lies, ask the murderers of Guma,

I repeat in case of misunderstand, Albanian goverment act fast. and arrest the scums, showing that doesn't want such actions,

 

[Valmir]

yes offcourse 1,5 000 000 Albanians that came from 1990 and after speak every day Albanian and we hear them every were in the streats, nothing happened,
indeed I live next to Paralia, every summer 500 000 Fyromians came, and speak Slavic, what happened to them? who forbid them

So what is this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeioPKkd9-Y&feature=related

And This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY4kJXLbrCs

And i have seen another video, Some greeks abusing 2 Albanians, but unfortunately i cant find that video...

 

[Elias2]

So what is this:

And This:


And i have seen another video, Some greeks abusing 2 Albanians, but unfortunately i cant find that video...

Again, youtube is full of nationlistic crap and is not worth taking seriously.

 

[AndronikD]

not exactly,

many times I try to connect Thracians with I2a2, But i was wrong, and I ahve to admit that,

Macciamo and Julia told me hat ancient Thracian Y-Dna qas R1a,

the R1a of Greek Macedonia also can be found in Magna Grecia, an area that is not Slavic at all,

if you look the maps of How Yes No you will see that enough R1a pre-slavic also exist in Magna Grecia in area of Sarento,

ancient Thracians had R1a surely,

ancient Thracians are consider Pre-Slavic by some, or Daci for others or even Goths to an extra possibility,

Greeks pushed Pieri-Thracians to east while Vrygians moved to minor asia, and the space occupied by Greeks,
the case of Pieri - Vrygians - Paiones is strange as also the Getae and the Triballi and Odryssee,

seems like Thracians were 3 mainly or Sub Nations,
you can read about in a thread,


Now R1a today is cinsidered
1) Germanic
2) Balto-slavic
3) Turkish by some especially in Turkey,

but an ancient R1a existed in Balkans,

a possibility that a R1b passed and moved West is Certain, but mostly today R1b in Greece is Romano-Celtic.

the Case of G2a3 in Greece is know from Pelasgians,
Pelasgians split to many and one of them is Thyrrenians,
Etruscan Y-Dna is found mostly G2a

J1 and J2 is considered Greek (some DYS of them) but J2 language was not IE but Pelasgian-Thyrrenian
so who gave IE language to greeks,

E-V13 came to balkans at 2000 BC estimated by some searchers

a possibility that Myceneans were R1b from minor asia that enter Greece is A) change
the possibility of Myceneans were R1a from steppes or Minor Asia (Hettit) is B) chance

The Driopes being R1a is a most possible chance

the rest are not consider IE by what we know today.

the case of R1a in South Italy - Magna Grecia gives connection among Greeks and R1a,

ancient Greeks had R1a among others,
the case of Agrinio an area that was not invaded that much, almost isolated,
that has enough I2 while Agrinion King Agrios had son the Paeon (Paeonnians- area of Skopje) as also the names of Paeonian Kings and Tribes (Agrianes = sons of Agrios)
also the Vrygian remained words and their connection with Ancient Makedonians,
seems like Thracians were 4 groups, the Greco-Thracians like Vrygians Pieri and Paeoni,
the Daci-Getae Thracians, the Illyro-Thracians, The central Thracians (Odrysse-Triballi-etc)

Linguistic of Homer seems like the IE of Greek is mostly towards English and Slavic
while is far from Latin,
Pelasgian elements are included also, but mostly in later Hesiodus,
so Pelasgians existed in Homers time, But mostly unite with Greeks after Troy and Sea peoples,

Pelasgians is the other part that existed in Balkans, Mostly in Greece, Albania, and South and East Thrace,
Pelasgians dwell lake Lychnitis today Ochrid before the arrive of Makedonians and King Karamos.
the 3rd ancient is Celts, mostly lived west of Dinaric Alps


now about modern case of Makedonia, Fyrom,

Yes you are right,
In 1900 lived more Slavic people in Greek Makedonia, and more Greeks in Fyrom
also in Bulgaria lived more Greeks, and Serbia,
After WW1
Greeks of Serbia either left, either change their names to -ic and became Serbs.
same happened with Serbs of Greek Makedonia.
Greeks of Bulgaria mostly exchanged with Bulgarians from Greece.

since I am from a village that is connected from Ancient times with Argeiad Dynasty. don't tell me about Makedonia, and ansk Butaris. I live here with my Family before 1000 of Years,
Before 1900 there were only Vlachs(Aromani), Greeks, Serbs, and Bugari (watch:Bugari not Bulgarians), Roma and Turks (Turks are considered both Turk-albans and Ottomans Arnaut and Turks)
After that
Greece did not wanted to expand in Skopje cause that area was never Greek, in anciety was Paeonia,
now about minority of Slavic Speaking people in Greece mostly change with Bulgaria,
while Serbs moved to Skopje.

At that time we Have Bardarska,
later after WW2 Greek communist decide to Become Fyromians and MAC-Donaldians,

Butaris major of Thessaloniki is an Aromani-Vlach that wants to be progressive and support Fyrom Issue cause he was an ex-Communist.
besides Butaris support Free Porn under 18 years old, support Gay mariage in Church, and is well known for his Alcoolism,
He is the only major that was in TV Drunken for 5 Minutes saying nothing, just looking, Got Drunken to the limit,
Butaris spend millions to became major, for more than 20 years now.

the case of Fyrom, that Unites Greeks Serbs Albanians and Bulgarians, is just out of Discuss,
A paper treaty is in power only if All accept it,
The Turks manage to create a diplomacy problem in Balkans,
while Mother Russia pushed Pan-slavism,

now about who must have the name of Makedonia,
For Greeks the connection is with Blood, from anciety,
is connection with Linguistic, and Koine-Hellenistic,
is connection with History and memmories of a Nations,

For you is just geographical term that must give to your unification movement a name,
well since some of you Lived in Original Makedonia and not Paeonia or Bardaska after Serbian Dusan, or Bulgarian Cymeon and Samuel invations in Makedonia,
and since Romans name Skopje Makedonia, well
Greek Gave you the opportunity, to live in peace both countries, by accepting the word Slavic infront, or Bardarian (Slavic Makedonia, Bardarian Makedonia)
But no, your Patrons suggest you to claim Alexander, to claim that Alexander spoke Slavic, although archaiology proves opposite, and to claim Lands,
you are the only ones in Planet That say that Modern Greeks of Macedonia are Slavic, Speak Slavic etc, while even Turkish Census prove that Greeks were majority after Turk citizens in Greek Makedonia,
you have your own land, stop Bullshit before Greece start Demanding Lands from Fyrom of Greek Minority, (pappers still exist) and starts to discuss rights of Albanian and Bulgarian minority,

we are Here 000 of years before Dusan or Cymeon
and we don't know for how long we will be,


Now about the photo of Germanos Karavaggelis, I have more to show you, with Fyromians next to Nazi-Germans, or Bulgarians burning Villages in Makedonia,
as also about Sandasky the Famous Bulgarian criminal that killed 75 Greeks under Turkish command,
there are many photos of Sandasky and Bulgarians with Turks also,
we never wanted your lands or your culture,
you invade from Dusan times and today you claim the lands,
well we will not give you them with out a fight, cause we were here before Dusan.
Stop Bullshit
All R1a are not Slavic,
or maybe for You south Italy is also Slavic.
Stop blame Greece for your problems, and start to concern about your people, by building monuments and statues, you simply cover a lie that even majority of Fyrom doesn't believe.

it is another thing the Ancient Makedonia,
another the Roman Makedonia.

I wonder in school what you tell to kids that Alexander was slavic and Dusan was Greek?
!!!!!!



Yes I have to admit that ancient Thracians were R1a although being I2 solve many problems and Questions
But the R1a is Greek colonies proves that IE speaking Greeks were also R1a

Problem number 1:

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5375.htm

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5386.htm

Today Macedonians have what your describe as ancient R1a.

Problem number 2:

http://korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_tra07.pdf

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf

Thracian spoke a language that can be described, if we are modest, as protoslavic.

Problem number 3:

Recent slavic researchers place the origin of the Slavic in Balknas, probably R1a people.


Thats the problems that need solving not claiming that the whole world is Greek.

And how many times I have to tell you R1a has never and never will be considered Germanic or certanly not Turkic that is funny.
About Balto-Slavic region see the links above.
By the way the main concetration of R1a in Greece is the regions of macedonia were Slavic was and still is spoken that is West Macedonia.
Now let me tell what you obviously don't want to tell. Ancient Macedonians were also R1a, if they were Dorians as you claim them to be they would have to be R1B. That.
Now please be concise and argumentative. The long tirades about Greek mythology and their modern Greek interpretation are prove of nothing when it comes to genetics.

 

[iapetoc]

Problem number 1:

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5375.htm

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5386.htm

Today Macedonians have what your describe as ancient R1a.

Problem number 2:

http://korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_tra07.pdf

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf

Thracian spoke a language that can be described, if we are modest, as protoslavic.

Problem number 3:

Recent slavic researchers place the origin of the Slavic in Balknas, probably R1a people.


Thats the problems that need solving not claiming that the whole world is Greek.

And how many times I have to tell you R1a has never and never will be considered Germanic or certanly not Turkic that is funny.
About Balto-Slavic region see the links above.
By the way the main concetration of R1a in Greece is the regions of macedonia were Slavic was and still is spoken that is West Macedonia.
Now let me tell what you obviously don't want to tell. Ancient Macedonians were also R1a, if they were Dorians as you claim them to be they would have to be R1B. That.
Now please be concise and argumentative. The long tirades about Greek mythology and their modern Greek interpretation are prove of nothing when it comes to genetics.

lets see. Sarendo Italy, Magna Grecia

How much R1a?????? >20%
Greek Makedonia how much R1a >20%
how mauch in Bulgaria??? <10% ???
How much in Fyrom ??? <10%
How much in Serbia ???? <10%
How much in Bosna?? ~14%
How much in Turkey ??? in some areas that J1 is strong reaches 24%

lets see J1a7 ???? Pontic Greeks
area of Greek Pontus? how much R1a 24% Bigger than Greek Makedonia.

simply where ever Greeks go a R1a exists most of it it is outside Greece, and in Greek Makedonia.

The rest is just a story for your bullshit,

Turks are claiming R1a Brances as Turkish, in this site also.
Read about Turks and their Y-Dna what they say,

since you want to connect ancient Thracians with Pre-protoslavic then you follow Georgiev-Duridanov Theory,
well according that Theory, Greeks are a union of ancient Thracians with minor Asian Pelasgians.
the case of Georgiev Duridanov is rejected by Rusu a Daci Thracian,
about the case that ancient Thracians were Proto-Slavic seems familiar also to me but Gennetic prove that Thracians also share HBO-Arab?????
what does that mean since you are expert in Genetic.

Better read the thread,

Now since as you claim R1a is only Slavic then Serbia Fyrom Bulgaria, Bosnia are not Slavic, !!!!!
cause they have <% than south Italy and Turkey,

why Dorians should Be R1b?
can you explain me that,
in Fact from Aiginion Thessaly and Area Tricca we have enough G2a3 as also in Central Makedonia and Around Mount Olymp.

Besides the only slavophones that exist in Greece are in area of Florina that from 1900 recon as Serbs, and the Edessa KilLkis which exchanged with Bulgaria,
I gave before numbers about 7-8 000


Besides I advise you to read carefully
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26187-Macedonians/page23

post #62 #64 #87 #98

what happened to all that greeks??????
350 000 Greeks los their properties and you are talking about 7000 slavophones?


Read carefully

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showth...search-of-Haplogroups-C-E-G-I-J-L-N-Q-R-and-T

ther you find that R1a for Turks is Chinese mogolian origin of Ongurs
Although I don't share that,


and that is the favorite map of How yes no

watch carefully,
Greek Makedonia has Bigger R1a than rest south slavic !!!!!!!
Sarendo Italy Greek colonies that even today speak Grico (Greek) has BIG R1a for Italy,

now if I say If R1a is slavic and Slavic people invade at 6th century then how the hell Greeks of Italy from 8th century BC have R1a
why R1a in Turkey follows the Alexanders steps?
or the oposite
if Pomaks are origin Thracians since they have R1a they are Slavic then how on Hell have have HBO-Arab.

simply you telling bullshit, and you know nothing about Genetic

an Aryan R1a either came from ancient times via minor Asia to Greece (Thracians) and Balkans,
and among them dwell the Iayan people (Pelasgians)
Either a R1a came from steppes at 3000 BC to Greece creating the IE branch of Greek Language, and Thracian culture which according many Thrakologists if you read the above post is relative to Greek (south tribes, Grecothracians, Vrygians, Paeones, Agrianes, etc)

and later after 6th century came another wave !!!! of R1a, the Balto- slavic,

the case of Myceneans or Driopes to be R1a or R1b is another story,
as also the case of Dorians,
watch it is another nation the Driopes and another Dorians,
Myceneans are connected with Lydia and Hettit so they could be R1b
but early myceneans also share same burial culture with Thracians which were R1a.

the = that R1a = Slavic is wrong,
R1a#Slavic,
if Slavic is ancient Thracian language, then Serbs Bosnians Fyrom should speak Celtic and not slavic cause majority is I2a2,

now about ancient Thracians we know from Erzerovo ring, and from Odrysse plates that used Greek Alphabet from 400 BC,

then what the hell Cyrill try to do if Thracians=slavic and gave new alphabet????

simply

Sorin Mihai Olteanu, a Romanian linguist and Thracologist, recently proposed that the Thracian (as well as the Dacian) language was a centum language in its earlier period, and developed satem features over time.[15] One of the arguments for this idea is that there are many close cognates between Thracian and Ancient Greek. There are also substratum words in the Romanian language that are cited as evidence of the genetic relationship of the Thracian language to ancient Greek and the Ancient Macedonian language (the extinct language or Greek dialect of ancient Macedon). The Greek language itself may be grouped with the Phrygian language and Armenian language, both of which have been grouped with Thracian in the past.


as you see there Thracologists that connect Thracian language with Greek,

Even in one of your links Connect Greek with Lithuanian and Baltic

the problem you set before are old,
If I2 was Thracian then all problems are solved
also if I2 is Slavic all problems are solved,

the determination R1a = slavic is wrong,
remember that Greek word for NO is Ουκ uk while turkish is yok.
simply no body dares to analyze R1a which is ancient and which is medieval.


about problem number 3 only today Bulgarians have that problem,

They still don't know since Balkars were Ogurs-Huns NON IE, NON Slavic, then how Bulgarian is a Balto-slavic language!!!!!!
so Georgiev is pushing the Idea that Thracians were Slavic, and Slavic language spread from south to North, But that is against Logic how come a small R1a change language to a Huge R1a?
so the case of Slavic being I2a language suits more with Slavic language.

another Theory is that Daci and as Greeks call them Getae are the Today Dutch, Deutch, and Getae are the Goths, meaning that Ancient Thracians were Germanic that were pushed West, or invade West whatever you like, and their lands were occupied by Slavic people,

many question still exist,
But the case of an ancient R1a and a later invade R1a at medieval is stronger

The case of Thracians Being R1a = Slavic then how you explain HBO-ARAB
Slavic people invade from middle east and not from Steppes?

simply your determination R1a = Slavic is wrong

 

[AndronikD]

Where the hell did you find that information????? Underhill, Bataglia, Kljosov e.t.c nobody lists Republic of Macedonia under 14 % and most of them list Greek Macedonia between 10 -15 %. ????????? So it was smart for you to include Greek Macedonia in the South Slavic world but not that it has more R1a.

The spread of R1a speaks of nothing. The methodology of finding the age of the common ancestor on the basis of the analysis of large number of ancestry information markers on the other hand speaks a lot.. Also there are subclades of R1a e.t.c. Otherwise if we combine the spread and your ability to produce stories The Russians Indians and half of Europe will be Greek.
Duridanov's theory primarily deals with the Dacian and Albanian languages. And it is not refuted because refutation does not depends on somebody liking. Howerver Thracian as proto-Slavic is widely argumented, not only in the limits of that theory.

So you want to tell me that everywhere Greeks went left R1a (for example Ria in South italia that is significantly younger than on the Balkans) except in Greece proper. How strange? By the way what the hell would ancinet Macedonians be doing in Graecia Magna????

About Lerin and Kostur back in the 50-ies the percent of South speakers was >75 %. But i guess Greece is wonderland. People dissapear there easier than european money.

Not to mention that the last time I discussed on forums the Greeks ran away from R1a like devil from cross. i guess now even that is Grecisazed. Well nothing new.

 

[iapetoc]

Where the hell did you find that information????? Underhill, Bataglia, Kljosov e.t.c nobody lists Republic of Macedonia under 14 % and most of them list Greek Macedonia between 10 -15 %. ????????? So it was smart for you to include Greek Macedonia in the South Slavic world but not that it has more R1a.

The spread of R1a speaks of nothing. The methodology of finding the age of the common ancestor on the basis of the analysis of large number of ancestry information markers. Otherwise if we combine the spread and your ability to produce stories The Russians Indians and half of Europe will be Greek. Also there are subclades of R1a e.t.c.

Duridanov's theory primarily deals with the Dacian and Albanian languages. And it is not refuted because refutation does not depends on somebody liking. Howerver Thracian as proto-Slavic is widely argumented, not only in the limits of that theory.

So you want to tell me that everywhere Greeks went left R1a (for example Ria in South italia that is significantly younger than on the Balkans) except in Greece proper. How strange? By the way what the hell would ancinet Macedonians be doing in Graecia Magna????

About Lerin and Kostur back in the 50-ies the percent of South speakers was >75 %. But i guess Greece is wonderland. People dissapear there easier than european money.

well the same about Monasterion (bitola) and Perlepe the % of speaking Greek was>60% than speaking Slavic, seems like they dissapear before '50 at starts of WW2, I wonder what happened to them...... the population in bitola area only was 30-40 000 Greeks in the city !!!
besides in 2 main Makedonia areas Thessaloniki and Monasterion Greeks are above,
both that areas today belong to Greece and Fyrom,
Monasterion included Bitola =Monasterion
while Thessaloniki area included Ευγελεια Gevgeli and Στρυμονισσα Strumnitsa.

nope not in Kastoria, in kastoria slavic almost Zero, Arnauts were more in Kastoria,
Slavic were mainly in Florina and Edessa and around Kilkis
Now about karakasidou,
!!! she is Pontian communist !!!!! not even Greek makedonian.

since you are a gennetic spesialist go tell Turks that claim that R1a in Turkey is XinYiang Desert origin,

Indeed there subclades of R1a,
these are the Germanic,
The Slavic
The Thracian
The Turkish
The Greek,

Simply Greek Makedonia and many Greek colonies have more R1a than south slavic nations,
that leads to a conclusion that R1a could be different than Slavic. or all south Slavic are Greeks,
choose


BUT STILL YOU DID EXPLAIN ME THE HBO-ARAB GENETIC MARK OF ANCIENT THRACIANS



Ancient Makedonians, all we know is that they start from Thessaly Pelasgian Argos from area Trica from city Aiginion (not Aigina), they move south as Dorians, they return North to Honor Hercules and they occupy land of Vrygians and push Pieri East, who push Bithini etc,makedonian brothers are considered Magnites, while all belong to Dorian family,
simply Makedonians spoke Aeolian dialect Thessaly was not Mycenean but Driopes and Pelasgians, myceneans spread to west to Epirus,
so Makedonians although they origin from thessaly they came from Peloponese,
so the marks you want you found them, Makedonians started to expand at 700 BC the time that colonisation of Italy had started. so R1a existed in peloponese,
now the story of Dorians leads us to Locris before the Makedonian started and before Dorians invade peloponese, Locri have many colonies in South Italy, especially in that area.
Besides Makedonians make their own colonies,
let me give you some,
Αμβρακια in Epirus
Αρσινοη in Cyprus etc
I am not claiming that Russians are Greek etc,
Besides Greek are not the owners and never found the world.
But Greeks is the link among minor Asia to West Europe and North East Europe,
is perhaps the most ancient IE with fully literature from Homer,
so can be connected with all IE languages, while mostly is consider alone, or to proto IE families of Hettit, Armenian
Greek also connected Via Pelasgian and to non IE languages.

 

[iapetoc]

So what is this:

And This:


And i have seen another video, Some greeks abusing 2 Albanians, but unfortunately i cant find that video...

well I can give you 00 of videos that Albanians f.. Greek girls,
or 000 of Videos that Albanians beat Greeks in Greece, simply your passion is result for Being fanatic Anti-Greek
and many videos that Albanians burn Greek flag in Greece.
simply you a blind fanatic, probably you came to Greece, and they caught you in robbery and you were sent back.
or you were mistreated by some Greek employment. who knows!!!
besides when i was in business I had many Albanians working, but half of them do not worth, and I kept them cause the other half was indeed good workers,

 

[AndronikD]

BUT STILL YOU DID EXPLAIN ME THE HBO-ARAB GENETIC MARK OF ANCIENT THRACIANS

It's not a genetic mark it's a disorder. Have you even an idea who the pomaks are and how they are described ? ))))))))))) have you heard about thallasemia. If you are close to sea you must have.


All R1a languages from Sanscrit to Thracian show incerdible similarity. Now how about it instead of your daydreaming?

 

[Antigone]

And i have seen another video, Some greeks abusing 2 Albanians, but unfortunately i cant find that video...

Are you seriously suggesting that because a couple of Greeks abused some Albanians and uploaded it on Youtube that everyone in Greece does it?

Yes of course there are some racist idiots in Greece, just like there are some idiot racist Albanians. In fact, I'm sure every country has their share of racists. If I searched for videos of Albanians abusing Greeks or anyone else what do you think I'd find?

I must be off now and abuse that really nice Albanian family who live next door.........

 

[iapetoc]

It's not a genetic mark it's a disorder. Have you even an idea who the pomaks are and how they are described ? ))))))))))) have you heard about thallasemia. If you are close to sea you must have.


All R1a languages from Sanscrit to Thracian show incerdible similarity. Now how about it instead of your daydreaming?

if you check the similarities of Greek language with all IE, then probably you will say that GREEK language is mother of all IE languages,
But that is not correct,
as also the rest above, yes I know about θαλασσαιμια, thalassaimia, it is known in all mediteraneo people, but mostly in east mediterraneo, then how come thracian and balto-slavic came from steppes????

by what you said above, you just admit that there is an R1a that came from middle east and not from North-east,
you just admit that there is an an ancient and a medieval R1a.

maybe i am daydreaming, but seems like all your equations are wrong, you have believes and not proves.

so I am daydreaming but you follow wrong God.

pan-slavism stopes at Makedonia, all R1a are not slavic,

 

[AndronikD]

if you check the similarities of Greek language with all IE, then probably you will say that GREEK language is mother of all IE languages,
But that is not correct

Blatant relativisation. I would again stress the word EYCATCHING SIMILARITIES. I am not speaking about traces that will lead you to conclusion that they all stem from one language.

also the rest above, yes I know about θαλασσαιμια, thalassaimia, it is known in all mediteraneo people, but mostly in east mediterraneo, then how come thracian and balto-slavic came from steppes????

by what you said above, you just admit that there is an R1a that came from middle east and not from North-east,

If you know about thalassaimia than you know that it is not in relation to haplogroup instead it is in relation to the region.

Who came from the steppes or from the middle east or from the north-east? That's the answer that you should answer, since genetics shows that nobody came from anywhere lately (that means in the last 10 000 years) in the Balkans (of course except for the 600 000 orthodox Turks that came in White Sea Macedonia).

you just admit that there is an an ancient and a medieval R1a.

Of course I didn't said or admitted something nonsensical like that. There can't be medieval haplogroup since it takes time for the specifics of the common ancestors to become statistically meaningful. For example in the work I referenced a few posts ago Kljosov estimates the age of the Balkan R1a to be 10 000 years while the age of the Nort-East R1a (or the Steppes as you like to call them) to be 4 000 years. And let me repeat you for the 1000-th time there is no "young" R1a on the Balkans, verstand? And R1a is the one and only connection of the Balkans and the North - East (your favourite Steppes).

maybe i am daydreaming, but seems like all your equations are wrong, you have believes and not proves.
so I am daydreaming but you follow wrong God.
pan-slavism stopes at Makedonia, all R1a are not slavic,

I reference you to a works that have been done with methodology explained in the work itself. What you reference me to is your Greek school textbooks that are telling the story of the pureness of the Greek nation and of the coming of the Slavs. That is the difference capish? For example it is strange that the spread of ancient R1A on the Balkans is the same as the spread of the Slavic languages. What a strange coincidence! And of course how inconvenient for the Greeks, since by what you a saying i sense that you are implying that there is a Greek R1a as you were implying that there were Turkish and German. Well now that's a good joke. I will tell it to the first person I meet. I'm sure we will have a good laugh and a bright day.

 

[iapetoc]

well seems like you don't understand, or you dont want to,

if Pomaks of Rodopi Mountain are the pure Thracians,
(Not all pomaks, cause word means slavophones muslims)
then they have thalassaimia more than 2000 years,
that means they did not came from steppes, that means that is another the ancient Greek-Thracian R1a and another the Baltic north R1a,
thalassaimia is a well know Mark to All greeks as also Anaimia (Μεσογειακη meditterenean)
in fact according to primal Y-DNA we found strange DNA pathesis,
I don't want to expand more,
Just think if Pomaks (Thracians) have so much thalassaimia, why the rest (Serbians Bosnians Croats) dont share the same %

you are turning me back to Georgiev's work,
But you don't want to see other possible,
Turks devastasion was about <200 000
Slavic invasion was bigger
and Balkar is the smallest,
Bardars invasion is not estimated, but surely smaller
Cumans invasion is also enough.

Only the R1b that entered last 2000 years in Balkans is estimated today more than 4 000 000 people (aromani all over Balkans etc)
and you tell me what?
that ancient makedonians were slavic before Slavic invasions?
or that Slavic as today is, was before 6th century,
or slavic speak thracian then Greek then Baltic. !!!!

Ancient thracians used Greek Alphabet, erzerovo ring, odrysse stones etc,
they did not want new alphabet,
newcomers needed new alphabet and a record of language,

understand that, there was a devastasion and an invasion, simply modern theories don't believe that was so tremendus in numbers as was believed before,
think from Asparuch then we find Kaloyiann (!!!) compare names,

SIMPLY YOUR COINCIDENCE IS WRONG,

LOOK AT MAGNA GRECIA SARENTO ITALY? DO THEY SPEAK SLAVIC?
LOOK AT MINOR ASIA GREEK CITIES AREAS HOW MUCH R1a, DO THEY SPEAK SLAVIC?

AND IF DURIDANU AND RUSU IS CORRECT THEN ANCIENT THRACIANS SPOKE A LANGUAGE SIMMILAR DACI AND ALBANIAN

I don't know who Myceneans (read about simmilarities with rest My nations) or Driopes (Druids they lived in Thessaly next to pelasgians probably fathers of Greeks) were R1a But i am sure and most do that Thracians had simmilar Funeral customs with Myceneans, and if is correct that pomaks are Thracians then ancient Thracians carry the Mark of HBO-ARAB, meaning that did not came from steppes, or North at 6th century, since the more the slavic the country the less the HBO-Arab.

there was a R1a that came from middle east.

Besides if for you R1a is only slavic I wonder how and why in North Polland (Duncich I think) they were consider Germans,
why numbers like of Turkey or south Italy did not change language, and small numbers like in Bulgaria manage to change it,
and since R1a is Slavic and only Slavic and medieval incoming to Balkans, Did Slavic invade also Turkey and South Italy???????

Thracians could Be linked with a pre-slavic culture, But is still under search,
Indeed I believe that ancient Thracian could be either Slavic, either Getae (Goth)
either a Daci-Albanian Language,
But linguistic we find that Vrygians and Paeones spoke more Greek than Odrysse.

And for your consideration at area of Syntikes and Odomantikes the word Serb or Fyrom Never existed, they still call Serbs and Skopje Trivalli.

Understand that, maybe R1a in India is also Slavic to you,


ok Then tomorrow I will go to my Friends and told them that people in India are Slavic as you claim,

cause all R1a are Slavic, according to you
I am not sure if the first person I meet will laugh, But Surely they ask me, are you ok? do you feel ok?


you are funny,

seems like to you Armenians are brothers of Irish, cause they also have R1b
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Simply with your Logic, Spanish R1b people are Hettits, !!!!!!!

:useless: :useless: :useless:

 

[AndronikD]

well seems like you don't understand, or you dont want to,

if Pomaks of Rodopi Mountain are the pure Thracians,
(Not all pomaks, cause word means slavophones muslims)
then they have thalassaimia more than 2000 years,
that means they did not came from steppes, that means that is another the ancient Greek-Thracian R1a and another the Baltic north R1a,
thalassaimia is a well know Mark to All greeks as also Anaimia (Μεσογειακη meditterenean)
in fact according to primal Y-DNA we found strange DNA pathesis,
I don't want to expand more,
Just think if Pomaks (Thracians) have so much thalassaimia, why the rest (Serbians Bosnians Croats) dont share the same %

Well maybe because thallasemmia is an autosomal DNA trait. Why are you putting thallassemia and Y-DNA in the same sentence? It's very ignorant. Autosomal DNA is so random that it cannot be used for anything aside as a proof of the fact that we all alike as humans, and of course if you want to know your personal lineage of ancestry. Ethiopians and Kenyans know even better about these disorders. Are they Greek?
I already explained this and I do not want to repeat myself into eternity since I don't have the will nor stubbornness to say the same thing all over again. Repetition is the mother of knowledge, and then again one is to wonder what re-repetition is a sign of?

you are turning me back to Georgiev's work,
But you don't want to see other possible,
Turks devastasion was about <200 000
Slavic invasion was bigger
and Balkar is the smallest,
Bardars invasion is not estimated, but surely smaller
Cumans invasion is also enough.

Only the R1b that entered last 2000 years in Balkans is estimated today more than 4 000 000 people (aromani all over Balkans etc)
and you tell me what?
that ancient makedonians were slavic before Slavic invasions?
or that Slavic as today is, was before 6th century,
or slavic speak thracian then Greek then Baltic. !!!!

I was reffering to the "good-will" resettlement of the citizens of Greek Macedonia of the 20-ies and 30-ies in the XX century. I wasn't talking about any invasion of the Balkans since there never was one as you imagine. Not to speak about the absence of archeological and anthropological evidence of a disruption as one would expect from these large scale invasions that are happening in Greek wishful thinking, there is a lack of genetical proof of this. And genetics is not aware of it's appropriateness or inapropriateness to Greek history, luckily. And i didn't even mentioned the logical ludicrousness of an idea of an invasion of farmers!
And not to speak about the last paragraph since it lacks any comprehensive line of exposition of an argument. :useless:

Ancient thracians used Greek Alphabet, erzerovo ring, odrysse stones etc,
they did not want new alphabet,
newcomers needed new alphabet and a record of language,

Hellenes used phoenician script. What is it a proof of ???? Mycenians used Minoan script. What is it a proof of????

understand that, there was a devastasion and an invasion, simply modern theories don't believe that was so tremendus in numbers as was believed before,
think from Asparuch then we find Kaloyiann (!!!) compare names,

understand that if you use the words devastation and invasion you need to prove that instead on relying on belief. Bulgarian conquest was what it is - a conquest by a small number of well organized warriors. if it was invasion the genetic makeup of Bulgaria would have been different. (by the way R1a is present in Bulgaria in larger extant than in sicily, I don't where do you find the information you are using????)

SIMPLY YOUR COINCIDENCE IS WRONG,

LOOK AT MAGNA GRECIA SARENTO ITALY? DO THEY SPEAK SLAVIC?
LOOK AT MINOR ASIA GREEK CITIES AREAS HOW MUCH R1a, DO THEY SPEAK SLAVIC?

AND IF DURIDANU AND RUSU IS CORRECT THEN ANCIENT THRACIANS SPOKE A LANGUAGE SIMMILAR DACI AND ALBANIAN

Yes, so many coincidences. For the rest see my comments about repetition above. You said nothing that would refute my claims except repeating your ignorant initial statements.

I don't know who Myceneans (read about simmilarities with rest My nations) or Driopes (Druids they lived in Thessaly next to pelasgians probably fathers of Greeks) were R1a But i am sure and most do that Thracians had simmilar Funeral customs with Myceneans, and if is correct that pomaks are Thracians then ancient Thracians carry the Mark of HBO-ARAB, meaning that did not came from steppes, or North at 6th century, since the more the slavic the country the less the HBO-Arab.

there was a R1a that came from middle east.

About HBO- Arab see the comments about thalasemia above. Nobody knowledgeable would use it as a proof of ancestry, that is why Y-DNA testing is used since it is relatively constant. About R1a people the problem is their distance from J2 people (In fact it's a Greek problem). About invasions I'm too tired to say the same thing for a 1001 -st time. Read my previous post and offer some argument. Or even better read Elias2's posts since he understands better than you the problem with the invasions from Mars.

Besides if for you R1a is only slavic I wonder how and why in North Polland (Duncich I think) they were consider Germans,
why numbers like of Turkey or south Italy did not change language, and small numbers like in Bulgaria manage to change it,
and since R1a is Slavic and only Slavic and medieval incoming to Balkans, Did Slavic invade also Turkey and South Italy???????

Thracians could Be linked with a pre-slavic culture, But is still under search,
Indeed I believe that ancient Thracian could be either Slavic, either Getae (Goth)
either a Daci-Albanian Language,
But linguistic we find that Vrygians and Paeones spoke more Greek than Odrysse.

And for your consideration at area of Syntikes and Odomantikes the word Serb or Fyrom Never existed, they still call Serbs and Skopje Trivalli.

Understand that, maybe R1a in India is also Slavic to you,

R1A is not Slavic as it is not German or Turkish or property of any modern nation or state where it was found. That is the fallacy of your thinking that I have pointed to many times. R1a simply tells
1. that people that belong to the haplogroup have a common ancestor that can be placed more recently on the timescale than the common ancestor (if any) of different haplogroups.
2. probably that initialy R1a people (beacuse of their genetic realtedness) shared common habitat and culture.
So i don't know who is Slavic, Indian or whatever you want to call them but taking into account the two points above when we compare the most of R1a languages we find eycatching similarities .
Your problem is that you take your notion of history and try to bend the genetics to fit it. Try the other way around.

ok Then tomorrow I will go to my Friends and told them that people in India are Slavic as you claim,

cause all R1a are Slavic, according to you
I am not sure if the first person I meet will laugh, But Surely they ask me, are you ok? do you feel ok?


you are funny,

seems like to you Armenians are brothers of Irish, cause they also have R1b
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Simply with your Logic, Spanish R1b people are Hettits, !!!!!!!

:useless: :useless: :useless:

Every haplogroup means relatedness. That's the essence of the notion of the haplogroup. I don't know what is so strange to you, genetics does not deal with the romaticised vision of the history of Europe, it deals with something else that is strange to you I guess.

:baffled:

Now when we are at laughing, here have a laugh

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik08/indo_aryan.pdf

 

[iapetoc]

Well maybe because thallasemmia is an autosomal DNA trait. Why are you putting thallassemia and Y-DNA in the same sentence? It's very ignorant. Autosomal DNA is so random that it cannot be used for anything aside as a proof of the fact that we all alike as humans, and of course if you want to know your personal lineage of ancestry. Ethiopians and Kenyans know even better about these disorders. Are they Greek?
I already explained this and I do not want to repeat myself into eternity since I don't have the will nor stubbornness to say the same thing all over again. Repetition is the mother of knowledge, and then again one is to wonder what re-repetition is a sign of?




I was reffering to the "good-will" resettlement of the citizens of Greek Macedonia of the 20-ies and 30-ies in the XX century. I wasn't talking about any invasion of the Balkans since there never was one as you imagine. Not to speak about the absence of archeological and anthropological evidence of a disruption as one would expect from these large scale invasions that are happening in Greek wishful thinking, there is a lack of genetical proof of this. And genetics is not aware of it's appropriateness or inapropriateness to Greek history, luckily. And i didn't even mentioned the logical ludicrousness of an idea of an invasion of farmers!
And not to speak about the last paragraph since it lacks any comprehensive line of exposition of an argument. :useless:


Hellenes used phoenician script. What is it a proof of ???? Mycenians used Minoan script. What is it a proof of????



understand that if you use the words devastation and invasion you need to prove that instead on relying on belief. Bulgarian conquest was what it is - a conquest by a small number of well organized warriors. if it was invasion the genetic makeup of Bulgaria would have been different. (by the way R1a is present in Bulgaria in larger extant than in sicily, I don't where do you find the information you are using????)


Yes, so many coincidences. For the rest see my comments about repetition above. You said nothing that would refute my claims except repeating your ignorant initial statements.




About HBO- Arab see the comments about thalasemia above. Nobody knowledgeable would use it as a proof of ancestry, that is why Y-DNA testing is used since it is relatively constant. About R1a people the problem is their distance from J2 people (In fact it's a Greek problem). About invasions I'm too tired to say the same thing for a 1001 -st time. Read my previous post and offer some argument. Or even better read Elias2's posts since he understands better than you the problem with the invasions from Mars.



R1A is not Slavic as it is not German or Turkish or property of any modern nation or state where it was found. That is the fallacy of your thinking that I have pointed to many times. R1a simply tells
1. that people that belong to the haplogroup have a common ancestor that can be placed more recently on the timescale than the common ancestor (if any) of different haplogroups.
2. probably that initialy R1a people (beacuse of their genetic realtedness) shared common habitat and culture.
So i don't know who is Slavic, Indian or whatever you want to call them but taking into account the two points above when we compare the most of R1a languages we find eycatching similarities .
Your problem is that you take your notion of history and try to bend the genetics to fit it. Try the other way around.



Every haplogroup means relatedness. That's the essence of the notion of the haplogroup. I don't know what is so strange to you, genetics does not deal with the romaticised vision of the history of Europe, it deals with something else that is strange to you I guess.

:baffled:

Now when we are at laughing, here have a laugh

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik08/indo_aryan.pdf

Well by what I know Autosomal DNA is major what counts about a nation,
a nation is mostly declared by its Autosomal and not by Y-DNA or mtDNA,

so autosmal DNA of Pomaks(Thracians) proves another nation than Slavic,

yes R1a could mean that they have a common ancestor, But that doesn't mean that they are all slavic, that is what you don't undestand,
the autosomal of Pomaks, is another autosomal that links them with East mediterrenean and Not with Baltic or North East Stepes,

all the discussion is to understand that Thracians is an Ancient Nation that is connected with Armenians and Greeks and minor Asia and Not with Northern R1a,
the case of Thracian to be Slavic is for laugh,
the case of Thracians to be a Pre-slavic culture can have a point,
the autosomal of Pomaks does not fit with the autosomal of south Slavic people, but mostly with Meditterenean, that means that they were here from far ancientry,
All the discuss is about your equation R1a=Slavic,
well that is for Laugh,
The autosomal defines a nation and not the Y-DNA,

Now about Ethiopeans,
IT IS KNOWN FROM HOMER THAT EXIST IN BALKANS FROM AROUND 2000 BC,
read Dienekes about E-V13,
it is Kushetic and came from Cyprus to Balkans the Bronze times,
so if you are a genetist then you can realize that they brought their genetic Anomalies to Balkans,


now about 20th century settlements, and 6th century, and 12th century, and ottomans times settlements,
I answer you clear, and straight,
Turkish census proves that Greeks in monasterion and Thessaloniki where majority, and minority in Skopje,

Yes Slavic people were more at 1900 at Greek Makedonia,
But Also Greeks existed in Fyrom and Bulgaria,
So changes of population happened,
Yes in Florina area (Lerin) Slavic people were more than they are today, But in Monasterion Greeks were majority,
Monasterion was a Greek speaking Area,
so it is obvious that people change country and left their homes according the culture they wanted to live,
But maybe for some of Fyrom, Greeks struggle the Slavic of Greek Makedonia,
Then how about Fyrom Struggle against the 150 000 Greeks of Fyrom?

Simply Fyrom is asking Lands and claims that Slavic minority people lived in 1900 at Greek Makedonia, and that is TRUE, But Forgets the Greek minority of Bardaska at 1900.
and if you know the case and numbers then you know truth,


Well No, according to last archaiological founds, and the new theories that are in search progress, Greeks used the Pelasgian Alphabet,
Pelasgian Alphabet is according protosinaitic,
Minoans used Linear A and myceneans linear B, that is why Myceneans were connected with R1b of Hettit, But the connection of Cadmus and the last written form of ceramic in an a north Island seems like Pelasgian used Alphabet with vowel before Ugarit,

the case that Greeks added vowels, or phoenician did not Use vowels (expel them), is not yet certain, a ceramic λυκηθος that is found in North aegean, proves that Pelasgian Language had alphabet with Vowels,
Plasgian alphabet is after proto-sinaitic code and has 29 letters, later forms have 27 as the Greek alphabet, and in koine left only 24.
instead of pure phoenician that has less,
Pelasgian are know to found alphabet, Both Greek-Latin of Κυμη Cyme, and Phoenocian,

Now about invasions, of the Greeks,
when Europe was invaded? from ancient times until late medieval, and a new peacefull invasion started after WW2,
lets see
R1b to many is connected with south caucas Armenian area and Hettits.
R1a is connected to areas of Aryan for many afganistan and in south caucas for others (area south of armenia)
G people are connected with far behind dwellers of Europe, and an Invasion at 900 BV with Etruscans, and many others,

J1 is northern Caucas and a branch is semitic,
J2 is Anatolian but is also is connected with India,

E-V13 is Kushetic, but moved in south Balkans at 2000 BC
I Gave links in another posts,

Now seems like Europe's only left Y-DNA is I,
By understanding that Europe was invaded from south to North, and from east to west, then you can realize many,

first try to understand and find which are the Slavic people, the R1a, or the I2a?

second Bulgarian invasion (Balkars) was not made by Slavic people, but from Hunish-Avars etc non IE. Yet Bulgaria speaks Slavic IE,
seems like Balkars did not manage to change language, or they accepted Slavic at Cyrillos times,

Finnaly I repeat my shelf again,
some J1 and J2 are consider Greek,
G people passed from Greece,
E-V13 entered Balkans at 2000 BC from Cyprus,
Greeks Myceneans had simmilar Funeral customs with Thracians, and both had with Levant, and Egypt and Middle East.

now the rest is enough,
even you admit that Pomaks autosomal is more connected with Greeks,
That means that Thracians are more connected with Greeks than Balto-Slavic people,

simply your equation R1a=Slavic is wrong,

in your previous post you were strongly supported that,

All R1a are Slavic you said,
Today you say that R1a is not Slavic

try to make fact simple and clear to your shelf,

Well where the hell is the Slavic R1a then? It seems to me that you don't understand the problem.

If it is Thracian than it cannot be Hellenic.

R1A is not Slavic as it is not German or Turkish or property of any modern nation or state where it was found. That is the fallacy of your thinking that I have pointed to many times. R1a simply tells

That is what you don't Understand,

Yes Greek language is connected with Lithuanian,
But also is connected with English
and Latin,
That is what you understand,
I can give you thousands of words of Hommers that are in R1b in west Europe, and thousands that are in G2a3 culture, and do not exist in Slavic R1a languages,

Your problem is that you want to put Greeks in Slavic population due to R1a,
Now if you search ancient Greeks scripts,
Locri people, Tall enough,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locrians
connections,
Lellekas in Greek Modern means tall man with not wide shoulders, and also is another word for Stork bird,
Makedonian means tall people,
Lelleges came from minor Asia, Not from North,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leleges
remember that Makedonians were 2 tribes the Locri and the Argeiads,
Argeiads were short, muscular, with wide body and shoulders, (Central Greek Makedonia)
Locri were tall, with thin skeleton, (upper west Makedonia)

the connection of Alexander with R1a, or R1b or J1 or J2 or G2 is a question that can not answered,

but from bible we learn that Iones dwell among Tharseis, (thracians? thyrrsenians?)

Greeks are from a unification movement that started 4000 years before.

Greek belong to the group of ancient civilization connected with minor asia cultures, Levant, and south Balcan,
Greek then expand to Italy etc,
the connection of Greeks with Slavic,
Yes Greeks belong to All families,
they Belong to R1a family,
they belong to R1b family,
they Belong to J family,
yet Greeks belong to no one,
Not even to Greeks,

that is what you don't get,
Greeks are a mix of Minor Asians with Balcanic people, and Cypriots, that happened in Thessaly
that later expand back to minor asia, Levant and Cyprus (also west).


YOU CAN NOT PUT GREEKS ARMENIANS HETTIT etc TO NEW FAMILIES OF MODERN IE GROUPS,
that is what you get,

the case of an Ancient R1a in Ancient Greece, and In ancient Thracians,
and the % of Today we don't know if they also added by medieval, as also the case that a R1a branch came from minor Asia instead of Steppes,

now about Bulgaria that is a good search area,
we now that was mostly spoken by Odrusse Thracians,
Later change to Greek the west areas, and the black sea coast,
Later turn to roman (Romylia)
The Balkars enter, the Goths enter, (Alarichus)
but yet Roman and Greek were dominant, or at least official,
and later after cyrillic aphabet and bible translation Bulgarian change to Slavic, by some Kings demands,
Now the case of Pomaks of Rodopi Mountains that Speak a dialect that is basically Slavic, but follows some Greek Gramar laws, and contains many Greek, drive Georgiev to assume that ancient Thracians spoke proto-Slavic,
But on the other hand the Vrygian and the Paeonian(Skopje) vocabulary has not much common with southSlavic, and after Greek isotones,
the Daci-Albanian approach links them to an ancient Itallic language,

according to you an isolated community for more than 1500 years has autosomal near Greek,
well since for you put Pomaks Thracians more close to Greeks than Slavic. well then probably ancient Thracian were more Greeks than south Slavic, (If isolated Pomaks are thracians)
and indeed south Slavic culture is imported at 6th century,
But if Pomaks are Thracians that means they came from East Mediterrenean,

the thing you don't understand is that Slavic and Germanic tribes are connected with Sweat water Cultures,
while Greeks are a salt water culture, Like Thyrrenians, Levantines,
now about your determinationof R1a, tell me how much J exist in Bulgaria?

 

[AndronikD]

Well by what I know Autosomal DNA is major what counts about a nation,
a nation is mostly declared by its Autosomal and not by Y-DNA or mtDNA .....

Of course it would, if you are Dienekes, you would say such nonsense, because using autosomal DNA you could relate everybody with everybody and distance anybody to someone else, according to your wishing. Nobody uses it anymore since autosomal DNA deals with the so called outer characteristics of the humans which are exposed to randomness and adaptation .
Y-DNA and mtDNA is the storage of unchangeable data about ancestry that is why everybody sane deals with them when researching population histories, and certainly not autosomal DNA.
That was what I was talking to you about. There is such an ignorance and spamming in your posts that it is not worth commenting. So i will make a few points instead of repeating myself on your parrot-like repetitions.

1. R1A DOES NOT PROBABLY means that they had a common ancestor and shared same culture some time ago (since there was no in-vitro fertilization back then got it?) it means that FOR SURE since that's the sense of the grouping itself.
2. E- V13 is a very specific sub-cluster on the Balkans and it certainly is not 2000 years old. That just speaks of your ignorance. What large scale invasion happened 2000 years ago that would bring it here?
3. Don't prescribe modern nation's (or notions of modern nation's) names to haplogroups (although it is a practice in autosomal research since it deals with geographic spread of patterns that is all it can do). It is unreasonable. It is enormously unreasnobable.
4. If Thracians were related to Greeks they would have been the same haplogroup. Got it? That's the primary pointer of common ancestor, and the one for Thracians and Greeks is very, very, very distant in the past. Genetics cannot be refuted with fairy tales.
5. Take it easy with all those invasions. There is a difference between invasion and conquest and intrusions. I doubt that even in the 20-th century invasions were possible. Have you ever wondered what it takes to make an invasion????
6. READ MY REFERENCES You have in my last reference at least 4-5 arguments against any larger migration in the Balkans in the last 10 000 years. And yet you take invasion like popcorns. They jump out with no reason whenever it suits you. That's the funny thing now.

 

[iapetoc]

Well where the hell is the Slavic R1a then? It seems to me that you don't understand the problem.

If it is Thracian than it cannot be Hellenic.

R1A is not Slavic as it is not German or Turkish or property of any modern nation or state where it was found. That is the fallacy of your thinking that I have pointed to many times. R1a simply tells

what can i expect,

simply you put data and the nyou draw them,

it is out of discuss,

simply you don't know Gennetic, and you use marks just to claim your Ideas,

for you exist only Y-Dna Nations,


Well you try to connect R1a with Slavic, so make an arguement about Greeks and Makedonia, and you failed,
you try to connect and the Pomaks and Thracians with Balto-Slavic, and you failed,
Although I don't deny a relation of pre-, not a proto
and then you blame Dienekes,

you follow a mark that has a law mutation,
and you not following families,

according your thoughts we are still 'Cro-Mans'
If I follow your method,
lets See.
we Found in a cave that a homo Erectus was R1a,
Yeah Homo-Erectus was Slavic,

that is the way you think,instead the nation is a wide family, of common ancestors that splits, or changes according to mix,so cases like anaimias, inheritage characteristics of eye color etc are defining a nation, but that does not mean all people have same Dna belong to them,
simply a nation is after common memories, common language, etc,a kid in Spain that has thalassaimia is not a Pomak, but if majority of pomaks have thalassaimia probably they lived around Aegean before Years, and mixed with others that had that mark,well by what I know some tribes in Africa have their own rules of what is attractive,
I know about a tribe, that a girl passes among boys to chose the one with perfect nose, if you look the boys they all almost the same as twins.
yet I don't know if all have same Y-Dna,

so all boys carry a Dna Mark that gives that nose, but the Y-Dna could be different.maybe for you if some of them has R1a is also a Slavic,
Y-dna is a primary tool, also mtDNA, but there are not the only marks that make a nation
the more the marks the better the view,

by blaming Dienekes you simply prove that you are not in knowledge of Genetics,
By in knowledge of Propaganda,
I quess who are your patrons,
Panslavism, PanTurkism Pan Albanism, PanHellenism times are over.

Greeks are Hospital people that accepted many populations that came,
but your effort to make them another populations just drives us mad,

6. READ MY REFERENCES You have in my last reference at least 4-5 arguments against any larger migration in the Balkans in the last 10 000 years. And yet you take invasion like popcorns. They jump out with no reason whenever it suits you. That's the funny thing now.

well maybe for you Romans never entered Balkans, never devastate, did not make Villaches (Villages), hundrends of thousands of roman soldier never populated with a local girl,
yes maybe aromani cinqueani were here before 10 000 years!!!!!!!!

you are nothing more than a fanatic that knows nothing about Genetics, and simply
you make an equation
R1a = Slavic
Thracians = R1a
Thracians = Slavic
Greek Makedonia has 1/5 R1a =Slavic,
wow what about Fyrom that has 1/7 R1a? is Slavic also?
if I follow your method the Fyrom and Bulgaria IS GREEK (Big J-Ydna)
and Greece IS SLAVIC


:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:

who knows Sarendo Italy has R1a so is Slavic also, maybe they came from Baltic 20 000 years before
or Spartacos the Slavic (Thracian) satisfy many women there
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:


Yes Dienekes is not a good analyst,
:wary2: :wary2:
if he was patronised by a Slavic Center then he will be better????
if his analysis suits you then you probably say that he is the Best


I am a G2a3 what is my nationality following your method???
I am not Slavic, so am I human??
have i the right to live?

 

[AndronikD]

what can i expect,

simply you put data and the nyou draw them,

it is out of discuss,

simply you don't know Gennetic, and you use marks just to claim your Ideas,

for you exist only Y-Dna Nations,


according your thoughts we are still 'Cro-Mans'
If I follow your method,
lets See.
we Found in a cave that a homo Erectus was R1a,
Yeah Homo-Erectus was Slavic,

that is the way you think,instead the nation is a wide family, of common ancestors that splits, or changes according to mix,so cases like anaimias, inheritage characteristics of eye color etc are defining a nation, but that does not mean all people have same Dna belong to them,
simply a nation is after common memories, common language, etc,a kid in Spain that has thalassaimia is not a Pomak, but if majority of pomaks have thalassaimia probably they lived around Aegean before Years, and mixed with others that had that mark,well by what I know some tribes in Africa have their own rules of what is attractive,
I know about a tribe, that a girl passes among boys to chose the one with perfect nose, if you look the boys they all almost the same as twins.
yet I don't know if all have same Y-Dna,

so all boys carry a Dna Mark that gives that nose, but the Y-Dna could be different.maybe for you if some of them has R1a is also a Slavic,
Y-dna is a primary tool, also mtDNA, but there are not the only marks that make a nation
the more the marks the better the view,

by blaming Dienekes you simply prove that you are not in knowledge of Genetics,
By in knowledge of Propaganda,
I quess who are your patrons,
Panslavism, PanTurkism Pan Albanism, PanHellenism times are over.

Greeks are Hospital people that accepted many populations that came,
but your effort to make them another populations just drives us mad,




well maybe for you Romans never entered Balkans, never devastate, did not make Villaches (Villages), hundrends of thousands of roman soldier never populated with a local girl,
yes maybe aromani cinqueani were here before 10 000 years!!!!!!!!

you are nothing more than a fanatic that knows nothing about Genetics, and simply
you make an equation
R1a = Slavic
Thracians = R1a
Thracians = Slavic
Greek Makedonia has 1/5 R1a =Slavic,
wow what about Fyrom that has 1/7 R1a? is Slavic also?
if I follow your method the Fyrom and Bulgaria IS GREEK (Big J-Ydna)
and Greece IS SLAVIC


:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:

who knows Sarendo Italy has R1a so is Slavic also, maybe they came from Baltic 20 000 years before
or Spartacos the Slavic (Thracian) satisfy many women there
:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

I blame Dieneks for it's methods and I blame you for your ignorance. You are the one that connects nations with genes and yet you blame me to be a nationalist. Hmmm, funny. I am only interested in inconsistensies of the romantic theories about the Balkans, and that is why genetics are good for since they do not incline to be "politically correct" as you would want them to be. I am Macedonian and will stay Macedonian regardless of genes, fairy tales, Greeks and I don't know what.
And that story about the boy (no matter how ignorant of what the population genetics deal with) just proves what I am saying although I doubt you are aware of that.

Well you try to connect R1a with Slavic, so make an arguement about Greeks and Makedonia, and you failed,
you try to connect and the Pomaks and Thracians with Balto-Slavic, and you failed,
Although I don't deny a relation of pre-, not a proto
and then you blame Dienekes,

you follow a mark that has a law mutation,
and you not following families,

I would like to see elaboration on how IO failed. With a rather more thoughtfull arguments than this:

the connection of Alexander with R1a, or R1b or J1 or J2 or G2 is a question that can not answered,

but from bible we learn that Iones dwell among Tharseis, (thracians? thyrrsenians?)

About autosomal DNA I cannot REPEAT myself untill unconsciousness. It's funny to say that Pomaks are Greeks because thay have thalassemia. So I can say that Greeks are Kenyans based on that. Funny. Besides I do not know of a research that says that Pomaks have same autosomal patterns as the Greks, Far from it.

So about autosomal research: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/autosomal-dna-testing.html

 

[AndronikD]

well how about ancient Thracian R1a Y-Dna from Tombs,

seems like an ancient R1a existed before slavic invasions

and surely it is not slavic But Greek R1a the IE branch of Greeks,

as you see son R1a existed in Greece and Bulgaria before the invasion of Slavic people,

And the answer in post nr. 175:

Well where the hell is the Slavic R1a then? It seems to me that you don't understand the problem.

If it is Thracian than it cannot be Hellenic.

And you are implying that I am using the ethnic adjective to R1A?
What is next i wonder

By the way my previous post was withheld by the administrators (I guess) for some reason so I would refrain from further posts until it is posted on the thread.