Politics The case of Macedonia

i cannot see nothing there like she is jailed because of her kurdish language.
in that part of turkey parents do not want to send their daughters to school and for this reason goverment pay money if they send their child to the school. goverment also give them "green card" so that they can meet all of their medical issues free. they dont pay for electricity also.

and here is the trt şeş: natinal kurdish tv. turkish PM is on the screen
View attachment 4612

note: father of my grandfather is kurdish.

Read the rest of the article, it says she was jailed for standing up to your government in the face of repression. They then accused her of having links to the PKK to throw her in jail. I'm willing to bet that Kurdish TV station is controled by the government, or at least influence heavily by.

I feel bad for the Kurds. The Turkish government have by repressing them for 100 years now. They were told if they go and kill Armenians en messe that they would be rewarded with a country called Kurdistan. Insted after the blood was spilled, your governemnt said no, labeled them as "mountain turks" and have activley trying to assimulate them into turkish society ever since. I remember when your president Erdgoran on his trip to Germany said that it is a crime to assimulate turkish people into german society, yet Turkey have been doing that for 100 years now! The hypocrasy of turkey knows no limits!

If your great grand-father was kurdish, and lived in the eastern half of what is now turkey, he more than likely saw, or even took part in the genocide.

I don't want Turkey and Greece to continue to have hostile relations with each other, but really its because of your government that it remains this way, in cyprus and in the agean. Its up to Turkey when they want to hold out a hand to greece of friendship, greece will be waiting to shake it back.
 
Hello,

The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.
you may feel sad for them also, since you are such a humanist.
 
you may feel sad for them also, since you are such a humanist.

I do, I don't like it when anyone is forced from their homes, like in the cases of northern cyprus, pontus, the 1955 Pogrom of Constantinople (I have a friend whos Grandmother was forced out of Constantinople), armenia, or kurdish villiages. There are a couple of things to remember about these "macedonians" who were expelled from greece:

1. They did not refer to themselves as or have a national councesness as being "macedonians" These people at the time of the Balkans Wars were Bulgarian nationalists envisioning a "Greater Bulgaria". This is the reasoning for the second balkan war which occured right after the first, when Bulgaria attacked serbian and greek military posts. Bulgaria went on to lose the war which gave the Vardar river Region to Yugoslavia, and the bulgarians living in it, which leads me to my next point.

2. There are no such thing as a seperate macedonian ethnicity. The people of FYROM are closely related to bulgaria and Serbia, the southern slavic peoples. All three said countries are apart of thr slavic union organisation. If you look at old Ottoman ethnographic maps of the Balkan region at the time or prior, there is no seperate "macedonian" people labeled. Interestly enough, there is no seperate "turk" label either, just muslims. The idea of being "Macedonian" was an idea of communist Yugoslavia, and Tito's vision of seperate republics inside of Yugoslavia.

The difference between what happened to these people and the people of asia minor is the Greek government doesn't throw peopel in jail for talking about it. In Turkey anything pro armenian or pro kurdish is seen as a crime, or in the case of the armenian journalist, a death warrent. Greece doesn't try to hide that these things happen or try to alter history, something Turkey can learn from.
 
It would be interesting to see, when the Slavs in region of Macedonia began to use name Macedonians for themselves. As I know, in 19th century they were mostly defined as Bulgarians, and in northwestern part of nowadays Macedonia as Serbs. The name Macedonians for Slavs in region of Macedonia was introduced in late 19th century. It was rather artificial designation for people with undefined national identity.
The same thing happened with Muslim Slavs of Bosnia who usurped name of state Bosnia and designated themselves as Bosniaks today.


Oh I like this explanation.

Maciamo it seemed childish to me for a long time also but then I realised that identity theft goes beyond issues of childishness.
 
I do, I don't like it when anyone is forced from their homes,

then why dont you add greece to this sentence?
"Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational. They do whatever they want..."

because you can just see what your people wanted to show you, just like turkish people in my country. that is why you are not anymore great greece culture.
 
then why dont you add greece to this sentence?
"Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational. They do whatever they want..."

because you can just see what your people wanted to show you, just like turkish people in my country. that is why you are not anymore great greece culture.

Please explain what you mean by "you see what your people wanted to show you". I don't deny that slavs were forced from their homes during the balkan wars, how am I denying this? Or how am I trying to say it wasn't the right thing to do to these people? Do you deny the Armenian genocide happened? do you deny tens of thousands of ethnic greeks were forced from from their homes in asia minor and constantinople? where they had inhabeted for 3 thousand years?

Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational to solve the problems of today. They do whatever they want. Turkey claims islands in the agean based on nothing, they send warplanes over greek islands illegally. Northern Cyprus and the illegal occupation of the west bank (palestine) are the same thing, turkey supports the palestinians but turns a blind eye to what they do in northern cyprus, hypocrasy. Turkey threatens war with greece if they get their international right to 12 km maritime boundaries. Who is warmongering here? Greece or Turkey?
 
"you see what your people wanted to show you" means you speak like politicians in turkey and in greece, i have tons of friends who look at the cases subjective just like you. they see turkey completely maltreated, while they see greece as an enemy. i am sure you would be the same if you were turkish.

in history, turkman came from their native lands to anatolia and europe because of they were hungry and wild. there was an "empire" in anatolia which was weak and couldnt defend their lands, the new ruler let them live in their cities for hundreds of years without problem together with arbics,caucasians, armenians, and kurds. after the french revolution together with the down of ottomans, lots of small countries emerged. and you kicked us out of balkan. (what do you expect in that period, when you kicked us out of balkan: to be brothers and sisters in anatolia?) so all the frozen problems through the years are melting down now. and we have our share with kurds, cyprus and armenians.

we do not claim anything about your islands. and it is better you forget about your constantinopolis. and never forget in 500 years under ottoman you didnt need to change your religion, and nobody killed you. while lots of luvvi were killed in anatolia because they didnt want to be christian in byzantium period.

so elias no body is angel. the problem is some people must be objective to find a way out of this mess, instead of saying we were innocent the rest was aliens.
 
"you see what your people wanted to show you" means you speak like politicians in turkey and in greece, i have tons of friends who look at the cases subjective just like you. they see turkey completely maltreated, while they see greece as an enemy. i am sure you would be the same if you were turkish.

in history, turkman came from their native lands to anatolia and europe because of they were hungry and wild. there was an "empire" in anatolia which was weak and couldnt defend their lands, the new ruler let them live in their cities for hundreds of years without problem together with arbics,caucasians, armenians, and kurds. after the french revolution together with the down of ottomans, lots of small countries emerged. and you kicked us out of balkan. (what do you expect in that period, when you kicked us out of balkan: to be brothers and sisters in anatolia?) so all the frozen problems through the years are melting down now. and we have our share with kurds, cyprus and armenians.

we do not claim anything about your islands. and it is better you forget about your constantinopolis. and never forget in 500 years under ottoman you didnt need to change your religion, and nobody killed you. while lots of luvvi were killed in anatolia because they didnt want to be christian in byzantium period.

so elias no body is angel. the problem is some people must be objective to find a way out of this mess, instead of saying we were innocent the rest was aliens.

Please can you share the turkish side of the story concerning Turkey claiming islands in the agaen, which you do. Flying warplanes over greek territory and threatening war if Greece takes its international right to extend their boarders to 12 km. I want to know the turkish side of why they continue to support the illigal occupation of northern cyprus while critisizing isreal for doing the same in the west bank. I want to know how and where the turks feel "maltreated" by the evil greeks. You say I talk like a politician, I say you talk like a puppet of your government, incapable of thinking objectivly and buying into the dogmas poured out from ankara.

Wether you like it or not, Northern cyprus isn't permanent. The warmongering in the agean isn't going to last forever. We can sit down as people and discuss ways to stop your government from breaking international law or we can sit back and wait until these problems become to big to stop.

To greeks, it will always be Constantinople. I don't know why you feel threatened by this name. It was used up into the early 20th century. "Istanbul" is a creation of turkish nationalism. Do the Egyption call Alexandria something else than it is? Tripoli? other greek founded town in t he Mediterranean? Constantinople carries more weight than "istanbul" ever will.

I don't need a history lesson, I study it as school. We can talk all about the treatment of christians in a muslim empire in another topic.
 
Please can you share the turkish side of the story concerning Turkey claiming islands in the agaen, which you do. Flying warplanes over greek territory and threatening war if Greece takes its international right to extend their boarders to 12 km. I want to know the turkish side of why they continue to support the illigal occupation of northern cyprus while critisizing isreal for doing the same in the west bank. I want to know how and where the turks feel "maltreated" by the evil greeks. You say I talk like a politician, I say you talk like a puppet of your ....
....
i already said all i could say about all the topics you mentioned and i guess you too. i believe these problems will never be solved, if the goverments speak with each other like you and me do it.

anyway, thanks for share. (y)

see you in another life (or topic)
 
i already said all i could say about all the topics you mentioned and i guess you too. i believe these problems will never be solved, if the goverments speak with each other like you and me do it.

anyway, thanks for share. (y)

see you in another life (or topic)

No, you've said nothing about it, you just sidestep the issue cause you know turks are wrong, turks are wrong about denying the Armenian genocide, and Kurdish rights. You don't have an excuse for cyprus or agean, your're just like the rest of the turks, selfish and greedy, warmongering. I'm glad we had this convo, so every one who reads this can know what the greeks have to deal with for neighbours.
 
I think it can be solved, Greece and Turkey just need to have another war. But this time it ought to be limited to sticks and rocks, no vehicles, no aircraft, no fire arms, no ships, just bare hands and caveman weapons.
I am saying this as a tongue in cheek message. The reason is to point out exactly how primitive both of your complaints and reasons for these feelings are. It is something that goes beyond reason and is something that resides in both sides of this argument way down in your limbic systems. These are pure animal instincts and we as reasoning beings have to make conscious decisions not to act on these animal instincts and seek a higher level of thought.
We as human beings need to try and act with reason in a more mature manner and make conscious decisions to act that way.
 
I think it can be solved, Greece and Turkey just need to have another war. But this time it ought to be limited to sticks and rocks, no vehicles, no aircraft, no fire arms, no ships, just bare hands and caveman weapons.
I am saying this as a tongue in cheek message. The reason is to point out exactly how primitive both of your complaints and reasons for these feelings are. It is something that goes beyond reason and is something that resides in both sides of this argument way down in your limbic systems. These are pure animal instincts and we as reasoning beings have to make conscious decisions not to act on these animal instincts and seek a higher level of thought.
We as human beings need to try and act with reason in a more mature manner and make conscious decisions to act that way.

just like 70 years ago in europe? or like in iraq?
 
No, you've said nothing about it, you just sidestep the issue cause you know turks are wrong, turks are wrong about denying the Armenian genocide, and Kurdish rights. You don't have an excuse for cyprus or agean, your're just like the rest of the turks, selfish and greedy, warmongering. I'm glad we had this convo, so every one who reads this can know what the greeks have to deal with for neighbours.

This is ridiculous, barbarian is not Turkish government to give you any official apologies. I'm sure he didn't take part personally in Armenian genocide too, and to be accused and be guilt of it.
Did Sparta officially apologise to Athens, or vice verse for the atrocities committed during long centuries of warfare? Did they really hated each other and kill with vengeance?
Are they friends now and proud citizens of one Greece?

"...your're just like the rest of the turks"
Now that's just a pure hatred to the whole nation. For this statement alone I kick you out of my Global Village.
 
i am sad that, turkish people did not contribute nothing when the human step on the moon, i also know that we dont have too much addition to the intellectual accumulation or civilization, however, my superego makes me love my country. just like everybody on this forum.

every reaction has its response. every country has his sins in their history. we were the conquerors and coming from wild lands, and it is normal that we were grimmer than others (see vikings, germens). In 21 century, turkey is trying to be a part of civilization. we work hard for it. we have too much hate around us as a heritage of our conqueror days. as a person, i would like to be a citizen of well civilized, and producing country. like europeans (but not european), or ancient greece (not todays greece).

EU can help us in this trip. they will also gain some advantages from it. eg. after loosing the control of petroleum to US and russia. they can, now with the help of turkey, reach emerging energy sources (kazakhistan etc.). or they can built stronger walls around them and call the outsiders as aliens.
 
Hello,
What is today's Republic of Macedonia is used to be the Vardar part which was given to Kingdom of Serbia, later Yugoslavia.
There is no recognized republic of macedonia. Only FYROM.
Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.
There is no Macedonian language. Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek. Great Alexander (his name means protector (alex) of men (andres)) and his father Philipos (his name means friend (philos) of horses (ipos)) were Greek, spoke Greek and were born in the Greek area of the ancient territory called Macedonia. Their names mean nothing to your slavic language and therefore you cannot claim you speak "macedonian". You can claim you speak a slavic language called FYROMian or whatever you want to call it.

The only reason your country started having the idea of being Macedonia/Macedonians is because around 1945 a politician over there named Tito (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito ring any bells?), who kicked out all Greeks residing in Yugoslavia and didn't permit them to go visit their place of birth and houses, decided that the idea of the Great Macedonia in the Balkans is great and he should impose it. The only reason you are called Macedonians is because some politicians thought that by implanting such ideas in your heads will create tension in the area and a country named like that would later give them reason to claim areas from Greece and Bulgaria. In your schools you all you are taught is propaganda. You should realize it and embrace your true identity and not try to pretend you are someone else. The idea that you decent from Great Alexander and his empire may make you feel that you belong somewhere and have glorious ancestors, but if you were decedents of his empire you would be speaking Greek and not Slavic. What you used to be is a part of Yugoslavia (meaning the land of south Slavs http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Yugoslavia) and therefore you are a Slavic nation.

I totally agree with Elias2 and his posts. If some people think that Greece is over reacting and we should be more rational you are wrong. We are as rational as it can get. In the past we wouldn't even consider allowing a name that contains the word Macedonia for the former state of Yugoslavia that used to be called Vardarska (the original name before the propaganda and idea of Great Macedonia). Now our country keeps proposing names and we eventually agreed with the name North Macedonia, that will eliminate every thought of FYROM expanding it's boarders to Bulgaria and Greece, and they don't even agree to that. Talk about rationality from their side...

In Greece we have a saying: if you let the savage in your garden he will eventually climb to your bed and claim your wife (loose translation). That is what is happening here. We are backing off constantly and they aren't, not even a little. If you want to talk about rationality address to FYROM and not Greece.

My country is facing the danger of losing it's territorial integrity from the North by FYROM and the idea of Great Macedonia, from the North-East in Thrace (150.000 turks living in Greece and only 2.000 Greeks living in Constantinople while the Lausanne treaty clearly states that the amount of Greeks and Turks in Turkey and Greece must be kept equal and Turkey has kicked out the majority of Greeks during the last 50 years, see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25545) and from the East at the Aegean (USA already calls the Aegean a "gray zone", which is clearly Greek area, just to please Turkey so they can help them with their plans in the Middle East) with Turkey constantly claiming Greek territories as Turkish, violating our boarders with their air force and not letting us claim our international right of 12km by threat of war.

Yet we are the bad ones here.
What is EU doing with all these matters that a country-member faces? Nothing.

Those of you who think that a few km of territory don't make a difference you are right but what we are talking about here is almost 1/3 of Greece being claimed by others. And if your country is in the middle of peaceful Europe or in it's own continent and can't really understand what it means to have other countries next to you claiming your land because you are at the boarders of your continent then I advise you to think better before posting your opinion without a little bit of research on that is going on.

PS. If you think my post is a bit aggressive it's because you are guys and never had PMS :rolleyes:
 
This is ridiculous, barbarian is not Turkish government to give you any official apologies. I'm sure he didn't take part personally in Armenian genocide too, and to be accused and be guilt of it.
Did Sparta officially apologise to Athens, or vice verse for the atrocities committed during long centuries of warfare? Did they really hated each other and kill with vengeance?
Are they friends now and proud citizens of one Greece?

"...your're just like the rest of the turks"
Now that's just a pure hatred to the whole nation. For this statement alone I kick you out of my Global Village.

I asked for the turksih side of the story, which he is hesitant to give. I do not represent Greek government but I give the greek side. He is like the rest of the turks. He isn't the only turk I debated about this, they all have the "I'm the victim everywhere sydrom, and we have never done anything wrong" card. The law in turkey where it is illegal to mention genocide of any kind is a good example of this. He did not take part in the genocide, no, but not additming it happened, or saying that it wasn't wrong makes him an accomplise in crime. I don't know about your global village but the one I live in people break laws and should be punished for them.
 
There is no recognized republic of macedonia. Only FYROM.

There is no Macedonian language. Ancient Macedonians spoke Greek. Great Alexander (his name means protector (alex) of men (andres)) and his father Philipos (his name means friend (philos) of horses (ipos)) were Greek, spoke Greek and were born in the Greek area of the ancient territory called Macedonia. Their names mean nothing to your slavic language and therefore you cannot claim you speak "macedonian". You can claim you speak a slavic language called FYROMian or whatever you want to call it.

The only reason your country started having the idea of being Macedonia/Macedonians is because around 1945 a politician over there named Tito (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito ring any bells?), who kicked out all Greeks residing in Yugoslavia and didn't permit them to go visit their place of birth and houses, decided that the idea of the Great Macedonia in the Balkans is great and he should impose it. The only reason you are called Macedonians is because some politicians thought that by implanting such ideas in your heads will create tension in the area and a country named like that would later give them reason to claim areas from Greece and Bulgaria. In your schools you all you are taught is propaganda. You should realize it and embrace your true identity and not try to pretend you are someone else. The idea that you decent from Great Alexander and his empire may make you feel that you belong somewhere and have glorious ancestors, but if you were decedents of his empire you would be speaking Greek and not Slavic. What you used to be is a part of Yugoslavia (meaning the land of south Slavs http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Yugoslavia) and therefore you are a Slavic nation.

I totally agree with Elias2 and his posts. If some people think that Greece is over reacting and we should be more rational you are wrong. We are as rational as it can get. In the past we wouldn't even consider allowing a name that contains the word Macedonia for the former state of Yugoslavia that used to be called Vardarska (the original name before the propaganda and idea of Great Macedonia). Now our country keeps proposing names and we eventually agreed with the name North Macedonia, that will eliminate every thought of FYROM expanding it's boarders to Bulgaria and Greece, and they don't even agree to that. Talk about rationality from their side...

In Greece we have a saying: if you let the savage in your garden he will eventually climb to your bed and claim your wife (loose translation). That is what is happening here. We are backing off constantly and they aren't, not even a little. If you want to talk about rationality address to FYROM and not Greece.

My country is facing the danger of losing it's territorial integrity from the North by FYROM and the idea of Great Macedonia, from the North-East in Thrace (150.000 turks living in Greece and only 2.000 Greeks living in Constantinople while the Lausanne treaty clearly states that the amount of Greeks and Turks in Turkey and Greece must be kept equal and Turkey has kicked out the majority of Greeks during the last 50 years, see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25545) and from the East at the Aegean (USA already calls the Aegean a "gray zone", which is clearly Greek area, just to please Turkey so they can help them with their plans in the Middle East) with Turkey constantly claiming Greek territories as Turkish, violating our boarders with their air force and not letting us claim our international right of 12km by threat of war.

Yet we are the bad ones here.
What is EU doing with all these matters that a country-member faces? Nothing.

Those of you who think that a few km of territory don't make a difference you are right but what we are talking about here is almost 1/3 of Greece being claimed by others. And if your country is in the middle of peaceful Europe or in it's own continent and can't really understand what it means to have other countries next to you claiming your land because you are at the boarders of your continent then I advise you to think better before posting your opinion without a little bit of research on that is going on.

PS. If you think my post is a bit aggressive it's because you are guys and never had PMS :rolleyes:

I don't know why the rest of europe and america supports albanians, "macedonians", and turks as much as they do, maybe it has to do with geo politics. As an ally of both world wars, and the cold war, they are shafting greece everywhere. Maybe they realized that the way they broke up Yugoslavia only created more problems and they want to sweep it under the rug as fast as possible.

I agree with your last statement about having a perspective of western europe or, like Le Borke, a Canadian. They don't know what its like to have nationalistic-propagandic neighbours.
 
I think it can be solved, Greece and Turkey just need to have another war. But this time it ought to be limited to sticks and rocks, no vehicles, no aircraft, no fire arms, no ships, just bare hands and caveman weapons.
I am saying this as a tongue in cheek message. The reason is to point out exactly how primitive both of your complaints and reasons for these feelings are. It is something that goes beyond reason and is something that resides in both sides of this argument way down in your limbic systems. These are pure animal instincts and we as reasoning beings have to make conscious decisions not to act on these animal instincts and seek a higher level of thought.
We as human beings need to try and act with reason in a more mature manner and make conscious decisions to act that way.

How about you start with the people actually breaking international laws. This would be nice.
 
Well, in fact, I didn’t want to engage this topic with Greece-turkey issues, but I guess it is too late now and although I am not a specialist on such a complex case, I feel like I must find some answers for such claims.

About agean sea, the limit was 3 miles in lozan, then Greece decided to extend it to 6 miles and turkey did not object it (according to 6 miles %48,85of agean is international waters;43,68 of it belongs to greece and %7,47 of agean belongs to turkey). After 1959 with respect to the international treaty of sea laws (UN) greece increased its territory limits to 12 miles (according to this limits the above ratios will be %26.1; %63.9 and %10).

Greece applied to International Court of justice (1978) for the case and court couldnt reach and agreement. Greece insist on 12 miles and turkey objects it and gives the references of the Tunusia –libia (1982) north sea (1969), US-Canada (1974) and England-France (1977) cases.

About cyprus, in july 1974 some greek soldiers charged in cyprus and cyprus soldiers made a putsch (?) with help of greek junta against makarios (in that period cyprus was one country). And these putschist killed around 2000 cyprus citizens (turks and roman). Their aim was to join greece as cyprus (see Makarios, who is not Turkish, speech at UN Security counsel at 19 july 1974). In that period turkey, Greece and England was the guarantor of the treaty of Cyprus. And turkey invaded 1/3 of Cyprus where the population was mostly Turkish.

In 2008, Turkish side of Cyprus accepted the Annan plan which would make the Cyprus again 1 country. But roman side didn’t accept it.

So, what is your opinions?
 
Hello,
The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.
and can anybody explain this?
 

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