Politics The case of Macedonia

Well, in fact, I didn’t want to engage this topic with Greece-turkey issues, but I guess it is too late now and although I am not a specialist on such a complex case, I feel like I must find some answers for such claims.

About agean sea, the limit was 3 miles in lozan, then Greece decided to extend it to 6 miles and turkey did not object it (according to 6 miles %48,85of agean is international waters;43,68 of it belongs to greece and %7,47 of agean belongs to turkey). After 1959 with respect to the international treaty of sea laws (UN) greece increased its territory limits to 12 miles (according to this limits the above ratios will be %26.1; %63.9 and %10).

Greece applied to International Court of justice (1978) for the case and court couldnt reach and agreement. Greece insist on 12 miles and turkey objects it and gives the references of the Tunusia –libia (1982) north sea (1969), US-Canada (1974) and England-France (1977) cases.

About cyprus, in july 1974 some greek soldiers charged in cyprus and cyprus soldiers made a putsch (?) with help of greek junta against makarios (in that period cyprus was one country). And these putschist killed around 2000 cyprus citizens (turks and roman). Their aim was to join greece as cyprus (see Makarios, who is not Turkish, speech at UN Security counsel at 19 july 1974). In that period turkey, Greece and England was the guarantor of the treaty of Cyprus. And turkey invaded 1/3 of Cyprus where the population was mostly Turkish.

In 2008, Turkish side of Cyprus accepted the Annan plan which would make the Cyprus again 1 country. But roman side didn’t accept it.

So, what is your opinions?

Turkey has no right to tell Greece what in can do. turkey is not greece, and Greece is not Turkey. If Greece wants 12 mile sea boarders, and signs the agreement which it has, it has the legal right to do so. Greece is not breaking any international laws in this respect. The other cases have no effect over the agean, Turkey is just looking for ways to hold Greece down. This is a example of turkey not respecting greece's international rights. Sending warplanes over greek islands is turkey looking for war.

Greeks wanted to make Cyprus apart of greece. With 88% of the island greek it made sence. Turkey then invaded the island which was deemed illegal by the international court of Jutice and Northern Cyprus untill today is not recognised around the world.
 
and can anybody explain this?

I already did explain this many, many times in my posts. If you choose not to read my posts its your own fault. It seems to me barbarian you go in circles, because you can't justify Turkey's actions.
 
I do, I don't like it when anyone is forced from their homes, like in the cases of northern cyprus, pontus, the 1955 Pogrom of Constantinople (I have a friend whos Grandmother was forced out of Constantinople), armenia, or kurdish villiages. There are a couple of things to remember about these "macedonians" who were expelled from greece:

1. They did not refer to themselves as or have a national councesness as being "macedonians" These people at the time of the Balkans Wars were Bulgarian nationalists envisioning a "Greater Bulgaria". This is the reasoning for the second balkan war which occured right after the first, when Bulgaria attacked serbian and greek military posts. Bulgaria went on to lose the war which gave the Vardar river Region to Yugoslavia, and the bulgarians living in it, which leads me to my next point.

2. There are no such thing as a seperate macedonian ethnicity. The people of FYROM are closely related to bulgaria and Serbia, the southern slavic peoples. All three said countries are apart of thr slavic union organisation. If you look at old Ottoman ethnographic maps of the Balkan region at the time or prior, there is no seperate "macedonian" people labeled. Interestly enough, there is no seperate "turk" label either, just muslims. The idea of being "Macedonian" was an idea of communist Yugoslavia, and Tito's vision of seperate republics inside of Yugoslavia.

The difference between what happened to these people and the people of asia minor is the Greek government doesn't throw peopel in jail for talking about it. In Turkey anything pro armenian or pro kurdish is seen as a crime, or in the case of the armenian journalist, a death warrent. Greece doesn't try to hide that these things happen or try to alter history, something Turkey can learn from.
your answer is this. but, you didnt explain if:
-greece killed or expelled over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region,
-makedonians still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places,
-no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools

and marianne says "There is no Macedonian language" so what is that language that atanas speaks about&
 
your answer is this. but, you didnt explain if:
-greece killed or expelled over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region,
-makedonians still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places,
-no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools

and marianne says "There is no Macedonian language" so what is that language that atanas speaks about&

"Macedonians" speak Bulgarian. Greece expelled 500,000 bulgarian nationalists to Vardar bovina and bulgaria. I explained this aswell. "Macedonians" can speak whatever they want and go wherever they want.
 
Turkey has no right to tell Greece what in can do. turkey is not greece, and Greece is not Turkey. If Greece wants 12 mile sea boarders, and signs the agreement which it has, it has the legal right to do so. Greece is not breaking any international laws in this respect. The other cases have no effect over the agean, Turkey is just looking for ways to hold Greece down. This is a example of turkey not respecting greece's international rights. Sending warplanes over greek islands is turkey looking for war.

Greeks wanted to make Cyprus apart of greece. With 88% of the island greek it made sence. Turkey then invaded the island which was deemed illegal by the international court of Jutice and Northern Cyprus untill today is not recognised around the world.
if 88%(?) is enough to decide why do you complain about kurdish minority in turkey
 
if 88%(?) is enough to decide why do you complain about kurdish minority in turkey

yes it was 88%, after turkey came in and displaced the greeks in the northern half they brought in turkish settlers to distort the population.

I complain about the treatment of Kurdish minority, which doesn't have a exact figure because the turkish government doesn't want to say, but estimates are kurds make up anywhere between 20-30% of turkey's population, concentrated in the south east of the country. Thats 15-20 million people, the largest group of peopel on earth that doesn't have a country for their own.
 
yes it was 88%, after turkey came in and displaced the greeks in the northern half they brought in turkish settlers to distort the population.

I complain about the treatment of Kurdish minority, which doesn't have a exact figure because the turkish government doesn't want to say, but estimates are kurds make up anywhere between 20-30% of turkey's population, concentrated in the south east of the country. Thats 15-20 million people, the largest group of peopel on earth that doesn't have a country for their own.
it is better to speak with you after you finish primary school
 
Yes it is a southern slavic dialect. Bulgarians and Macedonians are able to communicate very easily with one another.
 
Is this an insult or do you have nothing else to say?
what can i say?
you neglect a country, a language, you accept that you expelled and killed(?) 500.000 ppl and defend it, you dont let them see their families, you dont give them rights to educate in their language, you accept that majority can do anything they want. and finally come up with saying you worry about our minorities.

kurdish people have their own policital party and have about %5-6 vote (about4 million). they can speak their language, they can educate in kurdish.
 
what can i say?
you neglect a country, a language, you accept that you expelled and killed(?) 500.000 ppl and defend it, you dont let them see their families, you dont give them rights to educate in their language, you accept that majority can do anything they want. and finally come up with saying you worry about our minorities.

kurdish people have their own policital party and have about %5-6 vote (about4 million). they can speak their language, they can educate in kurdish.

"Macedonians" can say and go where ever they want, they can see whoever they want, they can learn whatever language they want. This person to claim otherwise is brainwashed from Skopian propaganda. Greece does not send warplanes over FYROM nor does it "neglect" it, on the contrary, Greece is FYROMs top investor in their country. If a greek talks about the expulsion of the slavic people during the balkan wars he does not go to jail, he does not have a death warrent either, in Turkey this is the opposite.

I can't believe your trying to compare the killing of 1.5 million armenians, 300,000-360,000 thousand greeks, and other christian minorites to the expultion of Bulgarian Nationalists to Vardar bovina and bulgaria. If turkey only expelled (not killed) the nationalists, there would have been no genocide. We are talking about two very different levels here.

Last time I heard about a kurdish political party it was banned for having connections to the PKK. Please tell me the name of this party so I can do some research on it. And don't try to hide it, there is a kurdish population in turkey (should I call them "mountain turks", would that help you better?) of about 20-30%.
 
Barbarian, listen, I don't want to debate this with you anymore, we've accompished nothing. Between Greece and Turkey right now, there are two issues, Cyprus and agean. I don't think turks understand that ottoman empire is over, it doesn't exist anymore. Turks don't have claim to cyprus anymore, or anything in the agean, it's greek again. You may act childish and try to inforce militarily but its not going anywhere. Ottoman is over, Turkey is your new country, you don't have say what goes on beyond your boarders. Greece doesn't claim any turkish territory, yet turks act like they're being invaded.

In the long run nothern Cyprus issue will be resolved and northern cyprus will not be anymore. Turkish warplanes will not be flying over greek islands forever, greece will have 12 miles maritime boarders. This will happen because Greece has international law behind it, its that simple. You can act childish about it or face reality. If you choose to act childish behind it to the bitter end Greece and turkey will have animosity for a long while after. If Turkey becomes mature about the issues and it happens sooner, Greeks and Turks may actually becomes friends (shocker!), its all up to turkey which of the two its going to be.

This is my last responce in this thread, I don't have anything more to say.
 
"Macedonians" can say and go where ever they want, they can see whoever they want, they can learn whatever language they want. This person to claim otherwise is brainwashed from Skopian propaganda. Greece does not send warplanes over FYROM nor does it "neglect" it, on the contrary, Greece is FYROMs top investor in their country.

you expelled 500 000 people (atanas said you killed them also), and dont let them see their families in your country. you accept it and then you can say that they can go anywhere they want.

If a greek talks about the expulsion of the slavic people during the balkan wars he does not go to jail, he does not have a death warrent either, in Turkey this is the opposite.

Kurdish party can speak anything it wants to speak, e.g. they say that they want to have autonomy and their own flag these days. they have their tv, education, political party. and nobody jailed them.
but may be we should expell them, since it is no problem.


I can't believe your trying to compare the killing of 1.5 million armenians, 300,000-360,000 thousand greeks, and other christian minorites to the expultion of Bulgarian Nationalists to Vardar bovina and bulgaria. If turkey only expelled (not killed) the nationalists, there would have been no genocide. We are talking about two very different levels here.

this 1,5 million is unclear yet, and must be solved with the help of historians. turkey accepts to have such a working group. if there was an illegal execution turkey must apologize as a heritage of ottomans.

what i dont understand is it normal to expell, if you dont kill.

and what is this 300/360.000 greece stuff? can you detail it?


Last time I heard about a kurdish political party it was banned for having connections to the PKK. Please tell me the name of this party so I can do some research on it.

"demokrat türkiye partisi" is closed. they have "barış ve demokrasi partisi" now.

And don't try to hide it, there is a kurdish population in turkey (should I call them "mountain turks", would that help you better?) of about 20-30%.

you are funny, nobody say them they are mountain turks, in contrast, we accept them as native settlers of anatolia. and nobody expell them. you dont even know their political party name, but still claim about their population with the help of google. again, they have a political party, and their vote is %4-5 (~4 million).

in my personel opinion, they should have their own country, although they never had it before in the history. (it will be under the control of US, just like Iraq under the control of England at the beginning of 20 th cent.)
 
The Historical boundaries is not what this debate is about, even though FYROM posssses little of ancient Macedon pre-alexander, used to have. The problem is this notion of a "Greater macedonia", which they are actively taught in schools.


Their invented Identity post WW2 as "Macedonians" makes them think they have rights to Greek and Bulagrian Land, and Greek and Bulgarian History. And this I idea of a "greater macedonia" is what they are taught in schools and at home. Greece has no problem when they call themselves macedonians, but by having a country with the name "Republic of Macedonia" propagates ownership of foriegn land, which they pursue through propaganda like the one I just showed, and national rallies where they wave flags outlining their asperations.

This is why Greece cannot let it be. A simple "Northern", "New", or "Vardar" in the name would clearly differenciate it between Greek, or bulgarian macedonia. We see this used throughout the world in examples like northern Ireland and North Korea.

I won't get into the cultural and ethnic differences between these "Macedonians" and ancient Macedonians, which they claim they are decended from, even though they proclaim to be slavic aswell.

Why do you find it "childish" when Greeces neighboors infrienge on its sovereignty and Greece speaks up for itself?

The same goes with Turkey. Daily, Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace, and the Greek Airforce has to drive them back, airspace over greek owned islands. The same goes with the enlargment of greek territorial waters to 12 km offshore. Greek has the international right to do this yet Turkey threatens war with greek should they impose it in the Agean, yet they themselves claime 12 km off North and southern Turkey.

The same Turkish hypocracy can be found in the illegal occupation of Northern Cypus. Turkey frowns apound the palestinian occupation yet they themselves do the same. Turkey nor the enhabitants of northern cyprus want to reunify, they think if they prolong it they will get recongnised eventually, even though the ICJ ruled the invasion illegal. And pro Turkish plans like the "anna plan" undermines democracy and makes turkish votes more important than greek votes.

A country like turkey who breaks many international laws, and human rights should be facing sanctions but insted they are activley seeking EU membership supported by Britain to combat the Franco-german alliane over the EU. This is why Britain is so pro-Turkey.


So I ask you again, why do you think it is childish when greece speaks up for its own intrests?


How you a problem with Greater Macedonia, mine grandfather was from Salonica, my grandmother from Ajvatovo (what you call LITI), and the other grandparents from Rugunovec/Polykastro.
 
And you can tell me again, that all that is ancient Greek lands ??? Greece has no minoroties, how can half the Salonica understands the language that I speak...

Last weeekend - a Salonikian sitting in Starbucks told me , SEDI (on Macedonian: SEAT)... od a chair ...
 
"Macedonians" can say and go where ever they want, they can see whoever they want, they can learn whatever language they want. This person to claim otherwise is brainwashed from Skopian propaganda. Greece does not send warplanes over FYROM nor does it "neglect" it, on the contrary, Greece is FYROMs top investor in their country.

you expelled 500 000 people (atanas said you killed them also), and dont let them see their families in your country. you accept it and then you can say that they can go anywhere they want.

If a greek talks about the expulsion of the slavic people during the balkan wars he does not go to jail, he does not have a death warrent either, in Turkey this is the opposite.

Kurdish party can speak anything it wants to speak, e.g. they say that they want to have autonomy and their own flag these days. they have their tv, education, political party. and nobody jailed them.
but may be we should expell them, since it is no problem.


I can't believe your trying to compare the killing of 1.5 million armenians, 300,000-360,000 thousand greeks, and other christian minorites to the expultion of Bulgarian Nationalists to Vardar bovina and bulgaria. If turkey only expelled (not killed) the nationalists, there would have been no genocide. We are talking about two very different levels here.

this 1,5 million is unclear yet, and must be solved with the help of historians. turkey accepts to have such a working group. if there was an illegal execution turkey must apologize as a heritage of ottomans.

what i dont understand is it normal to expell, if you dont kill.

and what is this 300/360.000 greece stuff? can you detail it?


Last time I heard about a kurdish political party it was banned for having connections to the PKK. Please tell me the name of this party so I can do some research on it.

"demokrat türkiye partisi" is closed. they have "barış ve demokrasi partisi" now.

And don't try to hide it, there is a kurdish population in turkey (should I call them "mountain turks", would that help you better?) of about 20-30%.

you are funny, nobody say them they are mountain turks, in contrast, we accept them as native settlers of anatolia. and nobody expell them. you dont even know their political party name, but still claim about their population with the help of google. again, they have a political party, and their vote is %4-5 (~4 million).

in my personel opinion, they should have their own country, although they never had it before in the history. (it will be under the control of US, just like Iraq under the control of England at the beginning of 20 th cent.)

Atanas only talks macedonian propaganda. Do some reasearch for yourself, if he was speaking the truth the EU in Brussels wouldn't tolerate it, and you would hear it on the news. Macedonians can go,say, learn, whatever they want. You choose to believe him its your fault.

kurdish people can not talk whatever they want. Remember that article I showed you where the little girl was arrested and jailed for speaking her mind? What about the armenian Journalist that was killed for mentioning what happened to the armenians. You talk only lies. Free speach in turkey is only acceptable if the government approves, this way Turkey is alot like North Korea and germany's 3rd reich.

1.5 million is the educated guess by historians. And yes historians agree a genocide happened, its politicians that don't, and I trust historians more. The only historians that say it didn't happend are turkish or funding their research by turkey. Its like the macedonians historians saying alexander wasn't greek when everyone else does. Do some reseach on the Greek genocide, 300,000-360,000 greeks died, along with other christian minorities. Turkey has alot of blood on its hands.

My last post was supposed to be my last untill I read yours and found many faults in your logic and understanding. My last comment to you is do some reseach before you believe the propaganda spewed out by turkey or skopia.

Have a good day barbarian, I'll be taking a trip with my girlfriend to the local museum and visiting a comedy club afterwards :)
 
And you can tell me again, that all that is ancient Greek lands ??? Greece has no minoroties, how can half the Salonica understands the language that I speak...

Last weeekend - a Salonikian sitting in Starbucks told me , SEDI (on Macedonian: SEAT)... od a chair ...

Greece has alot of minorities, I don't know where you heard otherwise.
 
Greece has alot of minorities, I don't know where you heard otherwise.

Yes I know, Macedonians (non Greek speakers), Albanians, Vlachs, Turks (these are native minoroties) ... Armenians and Georgians as far as I 've seen.
 

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