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Thread: The case of Macedonia

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    since We use accronyms like FYROM I think would be better using FOPOG instead of Greece. Greece is a ancient term which refferes to several cities-states, which existed more than 2000 years ago.

    *FOPOG - Former Ottoman Province Of Greece.

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    In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

    Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
    From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
    Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?
    For once, I agree with something you have written.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atanas View Post
    In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

    Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?
    I think you may be indirectly referring to two particular studies that were found to be methodologically flawed, in serious ways. The results produced by such have never been peer duplicated and were debunked numerous times.

    Modern Greek genetics are primarily Near Eastern / Eastern Mediterranean with some Slavic and Germanic influences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
    From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
    Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?
    Of course modern greeks and ancient greeks live different lifestyles, there is a 2000 year gap, but to say we have nothing in common is false. To say the roman era and ottoman era didn't leave its mark would be wronge, but to say we don't decend in one way or another from them is false. I don't understand what you want from greeks, to live in stone houses and wear togas all day long? no, it is the year 2010, we won't do that. You want greeks to worhship the ancient gods? The christian roman era changed that for good. The greek language has changed, but to put in it perspective, the english language has changed more from the time of shakespear than the greek language from the time of homer. The language might have adopted outside words along the way but it has not changed, if you look at it from a 2000 year perspective, very drastically like say latin has in relation to modern latin languages.

    What I love the most is when I debate a FYROM person about how they are not macedonian is that they attack me about my origins. In essence they cannot refute my statements so they begin attacking me. They spew out propaganda invented by skopje about us greeks being africa, asian, alien, whatever. Our "macedonian" friend here did no different. You cannot be slavic and be decended from ancient macedonians, its impossible. And frankly, to base a country on one greek tibe that existed 2000 years ago is ludacris. Greeks don't claim to be from one specific city state or another, its impossible to trace your origins that precise, but we are the almagamation of the greeks living on the penisula over the years. There has always been greek speaking people in greece.

    You critisize that history is taught to much from a nationalistic standpoint, you should read the macedonian history books, pure and utter propaganda. It is FYROM with their invented nationality that claims greek macedonia based on their fantasies, Greece has always said it would meet half way with FYROM about the name issue, but they stubbornly refuse. Nothern Macedonia, Vardar Macedonia, New Macedonia, what is wrong with these names? To call yourself just Macedonia is to deny Greek Macedonia their Identity and to steal their history, so who is it here that is wrong? The Lier and desiver or the rational man?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    I think you may be indirectly referring to two particular studies that were found to be methodologically flawed, in serious ways. The results produced by such have never been peer duplicated and were debunked numerous times.

    Modern Greek genetics are primarily Near Eastern / Eastern Mediterranean with some Slavic and Germanic influences.
    Greeks have always been a near eastern/eastern mediterranean people. Check out what maciamo has made on this website about the genetic makeup of europe:


    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...ighlight=greek

    I don't think the genetic makeup of greeks, though it has changed over the years, changed as drastically as many may think. Then we have "research" projects funding by skopje that lie to prove greeks are not decended from ancient greeks. Did you know there is a law in FYROM that forbids any scientific study about the origins of their people? I wonder why...

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    Quote Originally Posted by atanas View Post
    In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

    Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?

    whatever rocks your world....where do you get all those "facts"...?? do you know how you sound like when you referring to "purity of a race"...?? yes that is right... a nazi...that is what you are in Fyrom..

    .we never said that we are 100% pure descendants of the ancient greeks, but who in europe can claim that is coming 100% pure from an ancient tribe...?? we are talking about CULTURAL heritage...not RACIAL....to me anyone with greek language, heritage and culture, either he is white or black, muslim or christian, can claim the heritage and ancestry of ancient greeks and that INCLUDES that of macedonia, as ancient macedonia was a greek tribe...now go and sob....stupidity annoys me you know...better chose your next comment more carefully and stop making a fool of yourself...

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
    From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
    Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?

    my dear lebrok, did you really think that modern greeks would not evolve after thousands of years or history..?? honestly, what crossed your mind to be thinking that modern greeks and the ancient would be exactly the same and speak the same language..!! after all the thousands of years past, the conquerors and the other nations that we came in contact with, the forced christendom that came upon us, as well upon the rest of europe, did you think that we would still believe in the 12 gods of olympus..?? honestly..!!
    travel to greece and see for yourself...not just the greek touristic islands, but the mainland and come in contact with the local customs....do not go there just for the sun and the beaches and you will see that we do have some elements surviving in our culture....hospitality is one...many customs come from our pagan ancestors dressed in a christian veil.....each february there are customs all over greece that echo ancient pagan rituals...

    in the northern greek region of macedonia, we have some customs that date back in the dionysian days...men dressed up as goats, holding fallic symbols, run through the streets of towns and tease women but also men with them...have you never heard of that before..?? i guess not..because when you europeans come to greece, you only are interested in our sun beaches and drinks, and you are totally indifferent in anything else...

    i agree with all the rest that you say, that we do need to see forward, forgive and forget, but that should not mean that i have to forget my heritage....why should i do that anyway...?? i am a man who looks at the past and is inspired by it, but also that looks in the future and has a vision for it...and i will also agree with you that the truth always lies somewhere in the middle, but in this case, greece has more of a point.....as i said..we could share the name, but deffinatelly NOT our heritage...end of...

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    Quote Originally Posted by atanas View Post
    since We use accronyms like FYROM I think would be better using FOPOG instead of Greece. Greece is a ancient term which refferes to several cities-states, which existed more than 2000 years ago.

    *FOPOG - Former Ottoman Province Of Greece.

    don't blame us for this silly name, but yourselves and the UN....you should be renamed to what your name was before WW2....Vardarska...FYROM is a silly name that came upon you from your stupidity and insistence to be called something you are not...it is temporary and hopefully it won't last long...
    i do want to see you in EU one day...but as long as you do not try to throw mud against my country, and try to steal my heritage...i can not be allies with such a nation, and why should i...

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    Looks Like the name issue will be resolved soon now there is pressure from USA and the EU on FYROM;

    "The Obama administration in Washington D.C. is pushing the Skopian Republic to accept the predominant name for the country which is “Vardaska Makedonija”. However the United Nations official proposal of “Northern Makedonia” remains on the table. Secretary of Foreign Affairs Hilary Clinton was very clear about the intentions of the Obama government at a recent U.S. – E.E. meeting . During the speech from the representative of Slovenia, she intervened and strongly stated that Greece should cease negotiations with the E.U. about FYROM, and the country’s accession into NATO. Her opinion on the matter was that Prime Minister George Papandreou had stated his position, therefore it was now FYROM’s turn to respond.
    She indirectly sent another message to the Skopian Republic with the option of using the term “Makedonia”, referring to the northern neighborhood. Clinton has strongly supported the Greek “2014 Agenda” for the accession of the whole Balkan network of Serbia, Bosnia, and Kosovo into the E.E."

    source:
    http://usa.greekreporter.com/2010/10...om-name-issue/


    Words from herman van rompfree (sp)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zibxBoziGgA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Looks Like the name issue will be resolved soon now there is pressure from USA and the EU on FYROM;

    "The Obama administration in Washington D.C. is pushing the Skopian Republic to accept the predominant name for the country which is “Vardaska Makedonija”. However the United Nations official proposal of “Northern Makedonia” remains on the table. Secretary of Foreign Affairs Hilary Clinton was very clear about the intentions of the Obama government at a recent U.S. – E.E. meeting . During the speech from the representative of Slovenia, she intervened and strongly stated that Greece should cease negotiations with the E.U. about FYROM, and the country’s accession into NATO. Her opinion on the matter was that Prime Minister George Papandreou had stated his position, therefore it was now FYROM’s turn to respond.
    She indirectly sent another message to the Skopian Republic with the option of using the term “Makedonia”, referring to the northern neighborhood. Clinton has strongly supported the Greek “2014 Agenda” for the accession of the whole Balkan network of Serbia, Bosnia, and Kosovo into the E.E."

    source:
    http://usa.greekreporter.com/2010/10...om-name-issue/


    Words from herman van rompfree (sp)


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zibxBoziGgA

    vardarska makedonija is perfect for me...vardarska was the real name of the region before Tito....and that what they should technically be called...the makedonija bit could still sound sour to most of my country mates, but i accept it if only they drop the propaganda about the greekness of ancient macedonia and the "occupation" of their lands by greece and bulgaria...the makedonija bit should be just to define the region, not the ethnicity....then peace will come in the balkans at last...!! amen!

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    Quote Originally Posted by atanas View Post
    In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

    Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?
    You are just repeating your country's propaganda.

    Ancient Greeks' and Modern Greeks' DNA is surprisingly similar. Modern Greeks have evolved since ancient times like every population does, but their DNA has remained practically the same. In fact Modern and Ancient Greeks, have almost the same % of y-dna haplogroups and Modern Greeks have one of the lowest sub-Saharan admixtures in Europe

    The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%).

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    your own words answers yourself.

    you cannot be the sons of socrates.


    someone that doesn't know Greeks,

    Remember that Greeks are also the sons of Alexander, and Pausanias,
    so maybe Alexander sons are on the loose,

    on the other hand I don't allow a man from a Nazi country, that occupy nations to speak,
    1n 1900 Turkey genocide Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and Con/polis minority in 1953,
    today Turkey occupies from Land of Cyprus,and Bulgaria,
    And the Lands of Kurdistan, South ARmenia (Kars), Laz, Syria, republic of Pont,

    so when you set free those nations and people then speak


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    Quote Originally Posted by atanas View Post
    In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

    Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?



    maybe Ancient Greeks had also sub-saharan MtDNA, who knows?

    lets see Danaus Δαναος Bother of Egypt, wow
    so Ancient Greeks could be sub-saharans,
    but what are you?
    Are you a slavic? a steppe one? a modern intruder?
    or a Cuman?
    what is your MtDna? siberian? Moggolean?

    so since Greeks admit that have 1 of 3 Patriarchs from Africa,
    what is your problem?
    Maybe Alexander had sub-saharan Dna


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    There is no discussion about any other countries names or nationality, if so its unvalid because countries name is not negotiable and thats a fact who cant be broken. If its going to be democratic lets start again same rules for all countries if not then no discussion or negotiation.
    Greeks (modern adopted and given identity name by Western Europeans like Great Britain) are spreading wrong information to other people and countries so they get confused that they are what they are and others not, but its over and the time is not on your side even if you try with lies and fake propaganda. Greece the biggest criminal in Europe regarding Minority human rights and cheated with the currency to get Euro and now in big crises with the economy and that will bring unstability in the country. Your days is counted and there is no way out. Your offensive fake propaganda and the sell out of your soul to the Devil will get you where you belong. (Hell-as)

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    REPOST: Greeks are Sub-Saharans. FACT!


    The Greek Europeans?

    Ann Hum Biol. 2010 Jul 29.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704

    Abstract
    Background: The HLA polymorphism is a powerful genetic tool to study population origins. By analysing allele frequencies and haplotypes in different populations, it is possible to identify ethnic groups and establish the genetic relationships among them. Aim: The Berber (endogenous Tunisians) HLA class I and class II genotypes were analysed and compared with those of Mediterranean and Sub-Saharan African communities using genetic distances, Neighbour-Joining dendrograms, correspondence and haplotype analysis. Subjects and methods: One hundred and five unrelated Berbers were typed for HLA class I (A, B) and class II (DRB1, DQB1) gene alleles using reverse dot-blot hybridization. Results: High frequencies of A*0201 (24.76%), A*3402 (22.38%) and B*44 (32.85%) alleles were recorded for Berbers, the highest recorded for Mediterranean and North African populations. This study shows a close relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to other Tunisians, North Africans and Iberians. Conclusion: The apparent relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to present-day (North African) Tunisians, Algerians and Moroccans suggests that the Arab invasion of North Africa (7(th)-11(th) centuries AD) did not significantly impact the genetic makeup of North Africans. Furthermore, Tunisian Berbers appear to be closely related to Iberians (Spaniards and Basques), indicating that the 7(th) century AD gene flow of invaders was low in Iberians and that the main part of their genetic pool came after the Northward Saharan migration, when hyper-arid conditions were established in Sahara (before 6000 BC). Other studied populations belong to the old Mediterranean substratum, which has been present in the area since pre-Neolithic times. This study indicates a higher proportion of Iberian than Arab ancestry in Tunisian Berbers, which is of value in evaluating the evolutionary history of present-day Tunisians. Greeks seem to share genetic HLA features (Chr 6) with Sub-Saharans. The relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharans has been confirmed by other studies based on chromosome 7 genetic markers.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract.
    Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans... Hajjeja 2005 also claims that "Our study shows that the Greeks are separate from other Mediterranean populations and tend to cluster with Sub-Saharans (Figs. 2 and 3). This result confirms the Sub-Saharan origin of Greeks". Di Giacomo 2003 reported for Y Hg A found in Mitilini-Greece. Al-Zahery 2003 also separates the Macedonians/Europeans from the Greeks.....or vice versa.


    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309
    HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.
    A. Hajjej a, S. Hmida a,*, H. Kaabi a,A. Dridi a,A. Jridi a, A. El Gaa1ed b, K. Boukef a
    a National Blood Transfusion Centre, Tunis, Tunisia
    b Laboratory of Immunogenetics, Department of Biology, University of Tunis, El Manar

    Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in the Greek–Turkish Area
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/

    Measuring European Population Stratification with Microarray Genotype Data
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/

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    Greeks aren't that close to Sub-Saharan Africans on most markers. This page has a good summary that shows that Greeks tend to cluster more readily with their neighbors. Probably, similarities that they share with certain Sub-Saharans result from common descent from the Neolithic Expansion, which would be Middle Eastern origin, at least at the time of outset. It could have been displaced where it originated, in that case. Either way, the cited studies are flawed.

    I'm not really sure what you're suggesting anyway. That modern Greeks came directly from Sub-Saharan Africa when...?

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    For what it's worth, I think that the Republic of Macedonia should be called the "Republic of Macedonia." Macedonia is just a region, and although the supposed extent of its borders and the culture contained within its borders have fluctuated over time, that's something to note in textbooks, not to make an international issue about.

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    @Sparkey,

    I agree with you on your cultural point. Greeks call people from FYROM slavs for obvious reasons, and they resent that because it contradicts their claims to be macedonians, so in turn they say greeks are sub saharan using studies that were flawed on purpose to try to use a point saying greeks arn't european or whatever. Dejuva know everything he posts is fake but he will do it anyways, it's the nationalism talking.

    My opinion is that the country should be called northern, new, vardar, or upper macedonia.

    @ Dejavu

    Bulgaria lost the second balkan war get over it.

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    Im in the side of greeks here. The ancient region of Macedonia was only like 5% of today's FYROM, plus they were ethnic greeks not slavs like modern "macedonians" are. It's the manipulation of the communists.

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    A small history lesson!

    Argead house:


    `The Argead dynasty (Greek: Ἀργεάδαι) was an ancient Greek royal house. They were the ruling dynasty of Macedon from about 700 to 310 BC. Their tradition, as described in ancient Greek historiography, traced their origins to Argos, in southern Greece (hence the name Argeads).[1][2] Initially, the rulers of the homonymous tribe,[3] by the time of Philip II they had expanded their reign further, to include under the rule of Macedon all Upper Macedonian states. The family's most celebrated members were Philip II of Macedon and Alexander the Great, under whose leadership, the kingdom of Macedon gradually gained predominance throughout Greece, defeated the Achaemenid Empire and expanded as far as Egypt and India.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty

    350px-KAranus.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Im in the side of greeks here. The ancient region of Macedonia was only like 5% of today's FYROM, plus they were ethnic greeks not slavs like modern "macedonians" are. It's the manipulation of the communists.
    You're right about borders and culture, the culture has clearly changed, and the modern region of "Macedonia" is larger than the ancient region of "Macedonia." And not much of the Republic is contained within the ancient borders. But I still don't see why we need to use terms like "FYROM" or change the name to "Upper Macedonia." Is it implicit in the current name that they are the only or true modern Macedonians? Because the name "United States of America" does not imply that those living in the States are the only or true Americans. Isn't that a reasonable analogy?

    I'd like to see the Macedonians from the Republic accept the history of the region and the Greeks accept the name of the country. Then maybe we could all get along.

  23. #98
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    Wilhelm:
    You dont know anything about the history on Balkans does not matter what side you are on.
    Read the Macedonians thread if you are neutral but you are not thats why it does not matter what you think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    You're right about borders and culture, the culture has clearly changed, and the modern region of "Macedonia" is larger than the ancient region of "Macedonia." And not much of the Republic is contained within the ancient borders. But I still don't see why we need to use terms like "FYROM" or change the name to "Upper Macedonia." Is it implicit in the current name that they are the only or true modern Macedonians? Because the name "United States of America" does not imply that those living in the States are the only or true Americans. Isn't that a reasonable analogy?

    I'd like to see the Macedonians from the Republic accept the history of the region and the Greeks accept the name of the country. Then maybe we could all get along.

    If you ask them they are the only true macedonians and therefore Greece and Bulgaria occupy their land
    606px-Macedonia_barbed_wire.jpg;

    That is what they teach young slavo-macedonians happened to their country after the balkan war. There were no macedonians then, it is an invented nationality after WW2 in order to claim greek macedonia. In my opinion Greece has every right to be involved in the affairs in another country who has expansionist goals into yours. I would like aswell to see slavo-macedonians accept their history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Wilhelm:
    You dont know anything about the history on Balkans does not matter what side you are on.
    Read the Macedonians thread if you are neutral but you are not thats why it does not matter what you think.
    No he was spot on, "Macedonian" is an invented nationality by the communists.

    "When Yugoslavia actually claimed Greek Macedonia at the Paris Peace Conference of 1947, the Greek plenipotentiary reminded the Yugoslavian delegation that in 1916 his father had been the Prefect of Corfu, and had been responsible for saving approximately 133,000 Serb soldiers from drowning or captivity. The traditional Serbian song from WWI, "Tamo Daleko," was still fresh in their minds. The Yugoslavian delegation backed off. Macedonia remained Greek."

    http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/225852

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