Politics The case of Macedonia

if you want to understand the problem, you need to understand the history of the region....ancient macedonians were a greek tribe...otherwise why on earth with the spread of the empire of alexander the great, we see the spread of HELLENISTIC art and culture in the period of humanity and not the macedonian, and GREEK language is spread all the way to india,and not the macedonian one..that is that...
now the modern macedonia has two ethnicities..the greek macedonians, and the slav macedonians....slav macedonians are of bulgarian mainly decent, that is why their language is bulgarian...they moved to the region in the byzantine years, 1000 years after the years of alexander the great so they have no claim over the heritage of ancient macedonia...with the liberation of macedonia from the turks,started a struggle to carve the macedonian region into the different nations that were being created in the region...bulgaria, greece albania..we had also the thessalonian jews that did not want the macedonian region to fall either to greece or bulgaria and wanted an independent region or state of macedonia because simply they controlled financially the region and it was in their ineterests....even today the jewish lobby in USA, still supports the creation of an independent macedonian state....
there is no one macedonian nation, nor language...what is called macedonian language is actually a bulgarian diallect...macedonia should be a region of europe not a country, just like other regions of europe that contain more than one ethnicities....greek macedonians existed in teh region since the ancient times and are being forced to forget their heritage,yet no one complains about them (i am one of them)...the modern macedonian region has more that one ethnicities living in it, the greek macedonian and the slavomacedonians....in fact people of fyrom are known in greece as that...slavomacedonians....so you see our problem IS NOT THE NAME, we could share the name, but not the history and the heritage...
but as fyrom believe that they are the true descendants of alexander and other nonsence like that,and they claim ,after the brainwashing and propaganda they endured under the Tito regime that had views on the northern greek region of macedonia, that greece actually occupies their land and there are minorities that are being supressed and other ridiculous claims, we can not accept FYROM as one of our allies, no matter how much some hard core europeans want them asap in EU and NATO...why should i compromise my heritage so for some to see all countries of europe in EU...??
as i said we could share the name, but not the heritage and history....if FYROM accepts this and stop making claims over greek territory and culture and heritage. i would be happy to accept a name like northern or new or vardar macedonia for them....otherwise i am sorry, let them stay where they are...!!
 
Elias2 said:
Greece has alot of minorities, I don't know where you heard otherwise.
Click to expand...


greece has the roma, the pomaks and turkish minorities that are recognised and they have a seat in the parliament...since when though, an immigrant is considered an ethnic minority?am i an native ethnic minority in ireland? we have many immigrants from bulgaria, albania,serbia, romania...so perhaps the person who spoke to you in slavic language, was actually a bulgarian??
 
turkey occupies ILLEGALLY northern cyprus and they only reason the invaded the island is because of britain, and let su stupid turks and greeks fight over it....
when the brits gave cyprus their independence one of the rules was to accept british bases on the island (in fact cyprus is not just divided in two, rather in three parts until today,and britain, and EU country, has military bases in another EU country-ridiculous!!)..once the greek cypriots started wanting unification with greece, the agreement between the UK and cyprus would be annulled as cyprus being part of greece would not have to accept british bases...the brits are desperate to have bases in cyprus, as they are their eyes and ears in the middle east....the brits always practiced divide and rule policies wherever they went...india-pakistan with muslims and hindus, palestine and israel, and of course in cyprus with the greeks and turks....whenever there was a revolt in the turkish community they put greek cypriots to put it out by force, and vice versa..so they created hatred and divisions in the island to control both communities...so my turkish friend, open your eyes a little bit and smell the coffee...when the grek cypriots wanted unification with greece, the brits gave half of the island to you and allowed you to invade it, in order to keep their status quo on the island...and you are so silly to believe that you went there to protect the suppressed turkish minority....wake up will ya?
 
chris eblana said:
turkey occupies ILLEGALLY northern cyprus and they only reason the invaded the island is because of britain, and let su stupid turks and greeks fight over it....
when the brits gave cyprus their independence one of the rules was to accept british bases on the island (in fact cyprus is not just divided in two, rather in three parts until today,and britain, and EU country, has military bases in another EU country-ridiculous!!)..once the greek cypriots started wanting unification with greece, the agreement between the UK and cyprus would be annulled as cyprus being part of greece would not have to accept british bases...the brits are desperate to have bases in cyprus, as they are their eyes and ears in the middle east....the brits always practiced divide and rule policies wherever they went...india-pakistan with muslims and hindus, palestine and israel, and of course in cyprus with the greeks and turks....whenever there was a revolt in the turkish community they put greek cypriots to put it out by force, and vice versa..so they created hatred and divisions in the island to control both communities...so my turkish friend, open your eyes a little bit and smell the coffee...when the grek cypriots wanted unification with greece, the brits gave half of the island to you and allowed you to invade it, in order to keep their status quo on the island...and you are so silly to believe that you went there to protect the suppressed turkish minority....wake up will ya?
Click to expand...
:useless: i am sure you can use better words

so do you mean greece was not silly to try to unify with cyprus by killing 2000 cyprus citizen? and, turkey should watch it not to help brit politics?
 
hahah Ancient Macedonians have never been a Greek tribe.

If they were, there was no gonna be any Chaeroneia battle in 338 BC, do you understand. It was the greatest victory of Macedonians over the ancient Greeks - when the greek city-states turned dependent to the Macedonian kingdom.

Then - the ancient Macedonians according the "civilized" ancient greek society, were nothing else but Barbarians. Alexander 1st Philhellene was given that nickname - non Greek by origin, in order the get access to the Olympic games.

Check the states of you great spokesman, Demostenes of Athens. Ancient Macedonians, neither Macedonia - have never been Greek until 1980.
 
atanas said:
hahah Ancient Macedonians have never been a Greek tribe.

If they were, there was no gonna be any Chaeroneia battle in 338 BC, do you understand. It was the greatest victory of Macedonians over the ancient Greeks - when the greek city-states turned dependent to the Macedonian kingdom.

Then - the ancient Macedonians according the "civilized" ancient greek society, were nothing else but Barbarians. Alexander 1st Philhellene was given that nickname - non Greek by origin, in order the get access to the Olympic games.

Check the states of you great spokesman, Demostenes of Athens. Ancient Macedonians, neither Macedonia - have never been Greek until 1980.
Click to expand...


NONSENCE..!!! and you know it..!! you are entering the sphere of ancient greek politics, where when someone called another nation either greek or non greek a barbarian, it was the biggest insult you could give them...and ancient greek tribes were always fighting each other....what that does mean...?? half of greece was fighting the other half all the time...alliances kept changing...read some history man..!! and why ancient macedonians were taking part in the olympic games of the time,and as we know ONLY greeks were allowed to take part in them...??alexander took part in the olympics....since you are a "macedonian", please visit Pella, Aeges, Philippoi, and Vergina ancient cities of the macedonians that their ruins still stand,and have a look around.....if you see anything else than greek culture and architecture, then i will give you this argument...go to teh museum of Thessalonica...see the finds in there...open your eyes man...you are brainwashed by the times of Tito..!!

but PLEASE do answer my question...why did macedonians spread GREEK language culture and art all the way to india, and not "macedonian" and why we call this period of history HELLENISTIC, and not macedonian...?? and why your alphabet is cyrilic that was invented by two thessalonican brothers more than 1000 years after Alexander, and why you speak a slavic language, and as we know slavs came down to the region of northern macedonia 1000 years after alexander....?? please answer those questions in your head and then you will see the light of truth..!! my brainwashed friend
 
barbarian said:
:useless: i am sure you can use better words

so do you mean greece was not silly to try to unify with cyprus by killing 2000 cyprus citizen? and, turkey should watch it not to help brit politics?
Click to expand...


when did greece killed 2000 cypriots...??are you mad...??cyprus was independent...!! greek cypriots did want unification with greece...there were always clashes between the two communities, the turkish and the greek and yes in some of them people did die FROM BOTH SIDES....cypriot greeks killed turkish cypriots AND turkish cypriots killed greek cypriots....it was a war, that as i said started from the brits....your government used that lie to excuse and explain the atrocities that they commited in cyprus to your nation, just like america is brainwashing it's citizens to excuse the mess they are creating in iraq and afghanistan....you invaded cyprus and you occupy it ILLEGALLY, that is why no one has recognised northern cyprus.....you commited attrocities against the armenians, that even americans have accepted, only YOU still deny it...wake up...!!
 
chris eblana said:
when did greece killed 2000 cypriots...??are you mad...??cyprus was independent...!! greek cypriots did want unification with greece...there were always clashes between the two communities, the turkish and the greek and yes in some of them people did die FROM BOTH SIDES....cypriot greeks killed turkish cypriots AND turkish cypriots killed greek cypriots....it was a war, that as i said started from the brits....your government used that lie to excuse and explain the atrocities that they commited in cyprus to your nation, just like america is brainwashing it's citizens to excuse the mess they are creating in iraq and afghanistan....you invaded cyprus and you occupy it ILLEGALLY, that is why no one has recognised northern cyprus.....you commited attrocities against the armenians, that even americans have accepted, only YOU still deny it...wake up...!!
Click to expand...

i appreciate your effots to wake me up wise man. and i accept that brits, uS etc. plays game with countries like GR and TR. but, from what you wrote you must, at least, accept the stupidity of the cyrus/greece side since they began to force the whole island to unify with greece with the help of guns.

see: post no :39

"About cyprus, in july 1974 some greek soldiers charged in cyprus and cyprus soldiers made a putsch (?) with help of greek junta against makarios (in that period cyprus was one country). And these putschist killed around 2000 cyprus citizens (turks and roman). Their aim was to join greece as cyprus (see Makarios, who is not Turkish, speech at UN Security counsel at 19 july 1974). In that period turkey, Greece and England was the guarantor of the treaty of Cyprus. And turkey invaded 1/3 of Cyprus where the population was mostly Turkish.

In 2008, Turkish side of Cyprus accepted the Annan plan which would make the Cyprus again 1 country. But roman side didn’t accept it."
 
barbarian said:
i appreciate your effots to wake me up wise man. and i accept that brits, uS etc. plays game with countries like GR and TR. but, from what you wrote you must, at least, accept the stupidity of the cyrus/greece side since they began to force the whole island to unify with greece with the help of guns.

see: post no :39

"About cyprus, in july 1974 some greek soldiers charged in cyprus and cyprus soldiers made a putsch (?) with help of greek junta against makarios (in that period cyprus was one country). And these putschist killed around 2000 cyprus citizens (turks and roman). Their aim was to join greece as cyprus (see Makarios, who is not Turkish, speech at UN Security counsel at 19 july 1974). In that period turkey, Greece and England was the guarantor of the treaty of Cyprus. And turkey invaded 1/3 of Cyprus where the population was mostly Turkish.

In 2008, Turkish side of Cyprus accepted the Annan plan which would make the Cyprus again 1 country. But roman side didn’t accept it."
Click to expand...


greek soldiers never put a foot in cyprus in 1974...we were stopped before we even leave the agean sea....otherwise we would have had a war between turkey and greece on the island of cyprus, if greek soldiers were allowed to go to cyprus to fight...what are you talking about...?? more propaganda of the turkish side...?? and if we ever killed greek cypriots do you think that we would have good relations with them....?? from where did you get that source...? from wikipedia...?? honestly..!!!

and the greek cypriots DID WELL to reject the Anan plan at the time, since it gave more rights to the turks, even those who colonised the island after the illegal invasion and took illegally land and property of the greek cypriots...
 
chris eblana said:
greek soldiers never put a foot in cyprus in 1974...we were stopped before we even leave the agean sea....otherwise we would have had a war between turkey and greece on the island of cyprus, if greek soldiers were allowed to go to cyprus to fight...what are you talking about...?? more propaganda of the turkish side...?? and if we ever killed greek cypriots do you think that we would have good relations with them....?? from where did you get that source...? from wikipedia...?? honestly..!!!

and the greek cypriots DID WELL to reject the Anan plan at the time, since it gave more rights to the turks, even those who colonised the island after the illegal invasion and took illegally land and property of the greek cypriots...
Click to expand...
greece military junta supported the putschist in cyprus by using their soldiers in the island. you can find it in the speech of makarious. those were killed in that period was from both of turkish and cyprus side. they killed also roman cypriots because they were against this putsch.

edit: get bored of this subject. this is my last reply. you look smart person to me and i am sure you (greeks) are also right in some perspectives. but i hope you will find respectful words next time when we have an argue.
 
atanas said:
hahah Ancient Macedonians have never been a Greek tribe.

If they were, there was no gonna be any Chaeroneia battle in 338 BC, do you understand. It was the greatest victory of Macedonians over the ancient Greeks - when the greek city-states turned dependent to the Macedonian kingdom.

Then - the ancient Macedonians according the "civilized" ancient greek society, were nothing else but Barbarians. Alexander 1st Philhellene was given that nickname - non Greek by origin, in order the get access to the Olympic games.

Check the states of you great spokesman, Demostenes of Athens. Ancient Macedonians, neither Macedonia - have never been Greek until 1980.
Click to expand...

Your government is trying to take the political differences between the city states at the time in ancient greece and use it as evidence that macedonians were different, when in facts they were all greeks.

Chaeronia is one example of greek states fighting each other, the Peloponnesian War is another. Barbarian was a phrase greeks called each other to insult them, as well as the more practical definition.

You choose to read the propaganda spread by skopje and believe it, if that makes you happy in the bubble of the world you live in go ahead and believe it, but do not come here and spread your lies.
 
barbarian said:
greece military junta supported the putschist in cyprus by using their soldiers in the island. you can find it in the speech of makarious. those were killed in that period was from both of turkish and cyprus side. they killed also roman cypriots because they were against this putsch.

edit: get bored of this subject. this is my last reply. you look smart person to me and i am sure you (greeks) are also right in some perspectives. but i hope you will find respectful words next time when we have an argue.
Click to expand...


makarios wanted the unification of cyprus with greece..that is no lie..and he cooperated with the junta to make this happen...many greek cypriots wanted the unification..some still are...we are you see one nation....it was not by force as you said, rather the wish of many greek cypriots, and above them all makarios'..but the big powers had other opinions,so they worked on that...britain and turkey did not want the unification for obvious reasons..so that intensified the struggle from the greek side...the hostilities between the two communities did not happen because of any greek presence in the island, rather because of british policies...they incited the hatred that already existed...so both communities committed crimes against each other...
i did not use any disrespectful words against you or your nation..rather your quotes...and yes both sides have some right or wrong perspectives, but the bottom line is, turkey must withdraw it military presence in the island and stop the occupation..even if you are right and we are wrong, unification will never happen if turkey still occupies militarily the island....let the greek and turkish cypriots find the solution between them...amen
 
atanas said:
wasn't this a discussion about Macedonian-Greek relations ?
Click to expand...

yes but since you rest your case we thought to change the topic to something more substantial...

FYROM-Greek relations should be good...we have a lot to achieve if we all united in the Balkans.....My dream is that...But i am not willing to compromise my heritage for my dream....in the worse case scenario, since we have many other "holes" in EU (switzerland, norway) let us have one more and be done with it...
 
Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?
 
since We use accronyms like FYROM I think would be better using FOPOG instead of Greece. Greece is a ancient term which refferes to several cities-states, which existed more than 2000 years ago.

*FOPOG - Former Ottoman Province Of Greece.
 
In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?
 
LeBrok said:
Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?
Click to expand...

For once, I agree with something you have written. :cool-v:
 
atanas said:
In accordance with LeBrok - yes, ancient Greekism is gone today, you and the rest of the modern Greek, do not have much in common.... with the ancient Greeks.

Modern Greeks are of subsaharian origin, don't you know this, according to IGENEA ?
Click to expand...

I think you may be indirectly referring to two particular studies that were found to be methodologically flawed, in serious ways. The results produced by such have never been peer duplicated and were debunked numerous times.

Modern Greek genetics are primarily Near Eastern / Eastern Mediterranean with some Slavic and Germanic influences.
 
LeBrok said:
Chris, there is not much from ancient Greek heritage left anyway. Don't try to hold on to it in sort of nationalistic way, just to see how different you are from Macedonians or Turks. Today's Greeks, would have hell of a hard time to communicate with ancient Greeks. The language has changed so much. Today's Greeks have different religion than ones from 2000 years ago. The architecture is different, the customs are different, the enemies are different, the way of life is different, even people look somewhat different. You even live now in different place.
From my experience everybody's history point of view is skewed. Everybody's history is taught from nationalistic, heritage pride point of view. I'm pretty sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of all arguments.
Besides, history and the wars where cruel and everybody will have some vengeance to satisfy. I think, we should forgive, even forget what was in the past, and start fresh. I'm not sure what else we could do to live together in peace?
Click to expand...

Of course modern greeks and ancient greeks live different lifestyles, there is a 2000 year gap, but to say we have nothing in common is false. To say the roman era and ottoman era didn't leave its mark would be wronge, but to say we don't decend in one way or another from them is false. I don't understand what you want from greeks, to live in stone houses and wear togas all day long? no, it is the year 2010, we won't do that. You want greeks to worhship the ancient gods? The christian roman era changed that for good. The greek language has changed, but to put in it perspective, the english language has changed more from the time of shakespear than the greek language from the time of homer. The language might have adopted outside words along the way but it has not changed, if you look at it from a 2000 year perspective, very drastically like say latin has in relation to modern latin languages.

What I love the most is when I debate a FYROM person about how they are not macedonian is that they attack me about my origins. In essence they cannot refute my statements so they begin attacking me. They spew out propaganda invented by skopje about us greeks being africa, asian, alien, whatever. Our "macedonian" friend here did no different. You cannot be slavic and be decended from ancient macedonians, its impossible. And frankly, to base a country on one greek tibe that existed 2000 years ago is ludacris. Greeks don't claim to be from one specific city state or another, its impossible to trace your origins that precise, but we are the almagamation of the greeks living on the penisula over the years. There has always been greek speaking people in greece.

You critisize that history is taught to much from a nationalistic standpoint, you should read the macedonian history books, pure and utter propaganda. It is FYROM with their invented nationality that claims greek macedonia based on their fantasies, Greece has always said it would meet half way with FYROM about the name issue, but they stubbornly refuse. Nothern Macedonia, Vardar Macedonia, New Macedonia, what is wrong with these names? To call yourself just Macedonia is to deny Greek Macedonia their Identity and to steal their history, so who is it here that is wrong? The Lier and desiver or the rational man?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

This thread has been viewed 176006 times.

Back
Top