Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 126 to 150 of 230

Thread: The case of Macedonia

  1. #126
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    DejaVu's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-10-10
    Posts
    578
    Points
    23,249
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,249, Level: 46
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United Kingdom





    Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century


    Record of the Macedonian language
    The texts presented for analysis in this article were produced by the Institut Detudes Slave, De L’universite De Paris in 1958, and are a study based on words and phrases from Macedonia in the 16th century. It is one of the earliest manuscripts written in a purely Macedonian vernacular tongue, and its content was collected from the village of Bogatsko, which is found in the region of Kostur in the south-west of Macedonia. The author remains anonymous and the only likely conclusion that can be drawn is that he may have spoken the Macedonian language natively or acquired it as an additional tongue due to living in close proximity to people who spoke it. The texts were written using the Greek alphabet, which was not uncommon in the Balkans during the Ottoman period, as similar examples with the Albanian and Vlach languages have demonstrated. Furthermore, the ‘Bulgarian’ label that was at times attached to the Macedonian language is employed in the texts, remnant terminology that had remained in use largely due to Macedonia’s former location within the Bulgarian Empire. Despite this, however, there can be no doubt that the dialect (and indeed location) of Bogatsko belongs to Macedonia, and not Bulgaria.
    Macedonia during the Middle Ages
    By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.
    Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.
    Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics
    The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.
    Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).
    Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).
    Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.
    Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’ , although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.
    Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.
    Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.
    16th cent., Kostur dialect
    21st cent., Bitola dialect
    Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
    Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.
    Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
    Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.
    As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.
    All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.



    What was like the ancient Macedonian language?

    There are only a certain number of preserved words, and from the current knowledge the structure of the ancient Macedonian can not be fully synthesised. Most of the ancient Macedonian words are different to the ancient Greek language words, however there are a few that are similar. For the words from the ancient Macedonian language that are similar to the ancient Greek language words are believed to be taken on from Greek.19) In fact, this occurrence was and still is characteristic for all languages in the world. In the Macedonian language today terms are adopted from foreign languages mainly where there is no authentic terminology or analogy. For instance: antena (antenna); satelit (satellite); mobilen telefon (mobile/cellular phone); kompjuter (computer) etc. These foreign words are being adapted in accordance with the modern Macedonian phonetic system. This needs to be taken into account when analysing the ancient Macedonian language. The authenticity and the nature of a language can not be possibly determined only by the words that language adopted from another language.

    One needs to bear in mind that almost all the preserved ancient Macedonian words reached modern age through their Greek transcript which makes it more difficult to identify their true meaning. It is important that the phenomenon "Interpretato Graeca" is mentioned here, that is greekifying of all the foreign words: nouns, verbs, and especially names. A specific characteristic of this process is adding the suffix "os" or "s" to the foreign words, and this will be discussed later in this paper.

    Despite all this, it is very interesting to note that many of the authentic ancient Macedonian words, according to their etymology and pronunciation, have a striking resemblance to the appropriate words used in the modern Macedonian language (and other so called "Slav" languages).
    For instance, the word "tshelniku" which translated in English means foremost is a very interesting case. The British historian Hammond mentioned its etymology and said that the word "tshelniku" in the ancient Macedonian language had a meaning of "leader of a group". Hammond says that this word was translated into Greek only in the 14th century as "phylarchos".20)
    The word "tshelnik" with completely identical etymology and pronunciation has been registered in the so called "old Slavic language" in Macedonia as early as 11th century! Proof of this is the entry of Byzantine chronicle writer Kekavmen where he described the events surrounding the anti-Byzantine uprising of Petar Deljan in 11th century. He said that in the language of the rebels "the strategist is called tshelnik"!21) It is known that Kekavmen was fluent in the "language of the Slavs" in Macedonia therefore he could translate the Greek word "strategist" as "tshelnik" (the strategist was a high military rank in Byzantine). It is even more interesting that the word "tshelnik" with identical etymology and pronunciation is being used in todays' Macedonian language and in other "Slav" languages, as well! This can not be a coincidence, especially considering the fact that there could be hundreds of thousands etymological meanings that a single word can represent, and in this instance there is an identical etymological meaning for a word that has also an identical pronunciation.

    The remark that the middle age Macedonians simply borrowed this word from the language of ancient Macedonians and used it in 11th century is not valid. Assuming that it is so, becomes impossible to explain the fact that this word is present in the contemporary Croatian literary language. Have they inherited this word from the ancient Macedonians as well? It is the same with the contemporary Serbian and Bulgarian literary languages where this word is also present with the same pronunciation and etymology.
    It is highly likely that through analysis of the word "tshelniku" some other characteristics of the ancient Macedonian language could be identified, considering the fact that in the contemporary Macedonian language this word is deducted from the noun "tshelo" - forehead.
    As mentioned previously, the non-Greek words were recorded by the ancient Greeks on as-heard basis without analysing the form of the word. Due to the fact the word "tshelniku" had been recorded inclusive of the vowel "u" at the end, it is anticipated that "tshelniku" was recorded by the ancient Greeks in its vocative form. The vocative form of the noun "tshelnik" in the contemporary Macedonian language is precisely "tshelniku". Is it maybe that the Greeks used to hear the word "tshelniku" every time a Macedonian addressed the leader, therefore recorded this word without realising that they were recording its vocative form?

    Another word that is also very interesting in this regard is the word "phoinikos", which is related to the warfare22). Indubitable this word is very much alike the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" meaning "soldier". There could be a little doubt that these words have a common origin. Why is this so? In the ancient Greek language the consonant "v" did not exist23). The conclusion is imminent that the true pronunciation of the word "phoinikos" would be "voinikos" ("ph" replaced with "v"). In addition to this, as established earlier in this text, ancient Greeks added the suffix "os" to a lot of non-Greek words they recorded. If the word "phoinikos" had been subjected to the "Interpretato Graeca" phenomenon i.e. if the suffix "os" had been added to this non-Greek word, by taking out the Greek suffix we arrive at the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" (soldier). Not only the pronunciation, but also the etymology of the word "voinik" is very similar to that of the word "phoinikos" and is located in the domain of warfare.

    An abundance of water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary Macedonian language. The corresponding ancient Macedonian word for this is the word "vedy". The Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical "Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa, may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave the name "Edessa", was originally a Brygian city and its old name was Vedy which means abundance of water24). Furthermore, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote that ancient Macedonians had a great respect towards the water (springs, wells, rivers) and they worshiped the Macedonian divinity they called Vedy25). In this instance as well, the similarity between pronunciation of a contemporary Macedonian and an ancient Macedonian word is undeniable, and again their etymology is identical.

    The contemporary Macedonian verb "pesh" (walk) in ancient Macedonian would have been pronounced "pez"26).

    "Pella"27) is another ancient Macedonian word. The etymology of this word is "a stone". The corresponding word in contemporary Macedonian language is "spila", which is similar in pronunciation with the ancient Macedonian word "pella".

    The ancient Macedonian word recorded through its Greek interpretation as "skoidos" bears the meaning of judges. In contemporary Macedonian this meaning is conveyed using the word "sudii"28).


    There are number of ancient Macedonian words with undetermined etymology which in their pronunciation undeniably resemble contemporary Macedonian words, as well as words from other so called "Slavic languages".


    A very good example is the word "arotos" which ancient Macedonians used as an epithet to the god Heracles29). Its etymology is undetermined to-date, however if the suffix "s" is deleted this word is practically identical with the adjective "aroto" - "the old one" (archaism to a degree) from the present Macedonian language. According to a legend Heracles was considered to be the oldest ascendant of the Macedonians. Can the answer for the etymology of the word "arotos" be located in this legend, by referring to Heracles as "the old one" or "aroto(s)"?


    It is inevitable that the Macedonian Phalanx is mentioned in this discussion. The strongest weapon of the phalanx was the long spear called "sarissa". It is very interesting to analyse the etymology of the word "sarissa". The first and obvious question is whether the first letter of this word, the letter "s", is authentic or perhaps there should be the letter "z" instead? It is well known that the name of the Brygian (ancient Macedonian) goddess was recorded as both "Semela" and "Zemela". If this is applied to the word "sarissa" i.e. the letter "s" is replaced with the letter "z" it will transform into the word "zarissa". An exciting assumption emerges regarding the etymology of this word. The reflexive verb in its dialectical form "zari se" in the contemporary Macedonian is identical in pronunciation with the word "zarisa" (thrust itself in, pierce itself into). This is of course an assumption, which nevertheless has a solid base in the information presented in relation to the pronunciation and etymology of the words discussed previously.

    By analysing ancient Macedonian words that have a determined etymology, it is possible to make some assumptions and even draw some conclusions regarding certain grammatical forms of the ancient Macedonian language. This forms are identical with the forms of the contemporary Macedonian language.

    It is worth to mention that there were words in the ancient Macedonian language that (at least without performing a deeper analysis) appear to have a little in common with the contemporary Macedonian language. However, the presence of these words does not deny the existence of words from the contemporary Macedonian language in the ancient Macedonian language. In fact, for some of these words it is more than obvious that they had existed in the ancient Macedonian vocabulary.
    We should also turn attention to a portion of the ancient Macedonian onomastics. At the same time it is necessary to keep in mind two things. First, there is no doubt that the ancient Macedonians (mainly those from the highest circles) accepted part of the Hellenic onomastics. But in fact a large number of Macedonian names were different than those in the Hellenic onomasticon, while a considerable number of these are reminiscent of the later Macedonian onomasticon, or are derived from words of Macedonian or from so called "Slavic" (Venetic) origin.

    A second thing that needs to be kept in mind is the fact that ancient Macedonian personal names up to our own time mainly achieved written form through their Greek (and in a smaller number Latin as well) transcription. We can surmise that a considerable number of these names were given the added Greek suffixes "os" and "s", and more rarely "us". There are a lot of proofs for this, but here for lack of space we shall only mention that, in our research we have noted over 350 personal names written by ancient Greek authors, which names belonged to various non-Greek peoples. The overwhelming number of these Persian, Thracian, Illyrian, Egyptian, Scythian, Brygian, Libyan, Indian, and other personal names (but also toponyms and other words) were artificially Hellenized by the old Greek authors, adding the Greek suffix "os", and where appropriate "s". Sometimes the old Greek authors went to such lengths that the foreign name was totally changed in the process. Thus, for example, the Egyptian Pharaoh Khu-fu in Greek sources became written as CheopS (with the attached Greek suffix "s"). Later the Indian King Chandragupta was written by Greeks as SandroticOS, and so forth. Sometimes the only change to the name would be the Greek ending "os" or "s". Thus, for example, the name of the Egyptian King Psamtic was written by Greeks as PsametihOS. The Macedonian name Ata, as well, became written as both Ata and AtaS (Hellenized by addition of the suffix "s"), etc.

    We've said that we have identified hundreds of such examples of artificially Hellenized non-Greek names (but also other non-Greek words) by old Greek writers, which for lack of space here, will not be mentioned. According to such practices of that time it happened that peoples from quite disparate cultures, ethnic origins (and even races) such as the Persians, Egyptians, Illyrians, Arabians, Libyans, Thracians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Indians, Macedonians, and others, all had identical (Greek) endings on their names. This is so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Therefore, in the following discussion particular attention will be paid to the roots of personal names, given the extensive artificial use of the Greek suffixes "os" and "s" (as well as "us").

  2. #127
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    DejaVu's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-10-10
    Posts
    578
    Points
    23,249
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,249, Level: 46
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United Kingdom








  3. #128
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    DejaVu's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-10-10
    Posts
    578
    Points
    23,249
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,249, Level: 46
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

    Map showing the original territory of the Kingdom of Greece as laid down in the Treaty of 1832 (in dark blue).

    The consequences of the Greek revolution were somewhat ambiguous in the immediate aftermath. An independent Greek state had been established, but with Britain, Russia and France claiming a major role in Greek politics, an imported Bavarian dynast as ruler, and a mercenary army.[123] The country had been ravaged by ten years of fighting, was full of displaced refugees and empty Turkish estates, necessitating a series of land reforms over several decades.[30]
    The population of the new state numbered 800,000, representing less than one-third of the 2.5 million Greek inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire. During a great part of the next century, the Greek state was to seek the liberation of the "unredeemed" Greeks of the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Megali Idea, i.e. the goal of uniting all Greeks in one country.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea
    Megali Idea (modern Greek: ΜεγάληΙδέα, "Great Idea") was an irredentist concept of Greek nationalism that expressed the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greeks, since large Greek populations after the Greek independence in 1832 still lived under the Ottoman rule.
    The term appeared for the first time during the debates of Prime MinisterIoannis Kolettis with King Otto that preceded the promulgation of the 1844 constitution.[1] This was a visionary nationalist aspiration that was to dominate foreign relations and, to a significant extent, to determine the domestic politics of the Greek state for much of the first century of its independent existence. If the expression was new in 1844, the concept had roots in the Greek popular psyche, nurtured as it was by the prophecies and oracles that had kept alive, hopes of eventual liberation from Turkish rule.
    Megali Idea implied the goal of reviving the Byzantine Empire by establishing a Greek state, which would be, as ancient geographer Strabo wrote, a Greek world encompassing mostly the former Byzantine lands from the Ionian Sea to Mikra Asia (Asia Minor) and Euxenus Pontus (Black Sea) to the east, and from Thrace, Macedonia and Epirus, north, to Crete and Cyprus to the south. This new state will have its capital in Constantinople.
    The Megali Idea dominated the foreign policy and the domestic politics of Greece, from the War of Independence in the 1820s through the Balkan wars in the beginning of the twentieth century. It started to disappear after the defeat of Greece in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) and the Great Fire of Smyrna in 1922, followed by the exchange of population between Greece and Turkey in 1923.


    The Greek History. Continuity of fakness.

    And here is the Fake Greek enlightenment. The Fake Greeks.



    And the Greeks?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lbanian_origin
    Greeks (of Arvanite origin)
    Andreas Miaoulis
    Markos Botsaris
    Laskarina Bouboulina
    Nikolaos Krieziotis
    Xadziyiannis Mexis
    Pavlos Kountouriotis - First Greek President
    Kitsos Tzavelas
    Georgios Kountouriotis - Prime Minister of Greece under King Otto.
    Antonios Kriezis
    Dimitrios Voulgaris - He was thus one of the greatest exponents of the Modern Greek Enlightenment.
    Athanasios Miaoulis
    Diomidis Kiriakos
    Theodoros Pangalos
    Petros Voulgaris
    Alexandros Diomidis
    Nikos Engonopoulos
    Ieronymos II - Archbishop of Athens and All Greece.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (GERMAN)
    Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek: θων, Βασιλεςτςλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King of Greece in 1832 under the Convention of London, whereby Greece became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (the United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (VLACH)
    Ioannis Kolettis (Greek: ΙωάννηςΚωλέττης) (1773[citation needed] - 1847) was a Greek politician of Vlach origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (Venetian)
    Count Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias (Greek: ΚόμηςΙωάννηςΑντώνιοςΚαποδίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian: Giovanni Capo d'Istria, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian: графИоаннКаподистрияGraf Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek diplomat of the Russian Empire and later first head of state of independent Greece.
    Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu,(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands, which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice . He studied medicine, philosophy and the law at Padua, in Italy. When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a conte (count) by Charles Emmanuel II, Duke of Savoy, and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the Libro d'Oro of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from Capodistria, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper in Slovenia and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the Libro d'Oro since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu, the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia and Turkey, Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis (Aromanian)
    Theodore Kavalliotis (Greek: Θεόδωρος Αναστασίου Καβαλλιώτης, Romanian: Teodor Kavalioti, 1718 – 11 August 1789) was a Greek Orthodox priest, teacher and a figure of the Greek Enlightenment. He is also known for having drafted an Aromanian-Greek-Albanian dictionary.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios (Aromanian)
    Rigas Feraios or Rigas Velestinlis (Greek: Ρήγας Βελεστινλής-Φεραίος, born Αντώνιος Κυριαζής, Antonios Kyriazis; also known as Κωνσταντίνος Ρήγας, Konstantinos or Constantine Rhigas; Serbian: Рига од Фере, Riga od Fere; 1757—June 13, 1798) was a Greek writer and revolutionary, an eminent figure of the Greek Enlightenment, remembered as a Greek national hero, the first victim of the uprising against the Ottoman Empire and a forerunner of the Greek War of Independence.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ent_Aromanians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

    Just speak Greek and have Greek name then you belong to the ancient Greeks, easy and simple.

  4. #129
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    DejaVu's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-10-10
    Posts
    578
    Points
    23,249
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,249, Level: 46
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United Kingdom




    Taken from “Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990″ by Anastasia N. Karakasidou, Published by University of Chicago Press, 1997, page 141.



    Taken from the November issue of National Geographic year 1925. The name of the article is “History’s Greatest Trek: Tragedy Stalks Through the Near East as Greece and Turkey Exchange Two Million of Their People” By Melville Chater.

  5. #130
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    DejaVu's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-10-10
    Posts
    578
    Points
    23,249
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,249, Level: 46
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon
    Perseus (Greek: Περσεύς) (ca. 212 BC - 166 BC) was the last king (Basileus) of the Antigonid dynasty, who ruled the successor state in Macedon created upon the death of Alexander the Great. He also has the distinction of being the last of the line, after losing the Battle of Pydna on 22 June 168 BC; subsequently Macedon came under Roman rule.

    The Antigonid kingdom was dissolved, and replaced with four republics. Andriscus of Macedon broke off the Roman rule for about a year, but was defeated in 148 BC by the Romans. In 146 BC, the four republics were dissolved, and Macedon officially became the Roman province of Macedonia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_p...e_of_Macedonia

    The province of Macedonia within the Roman Empire, ca. 117 AD


    Roman provinces,400 AD

  6. #131
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    DejaVu's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-10-10
    Posts
    578
    Points
    23,249
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,249, Level: 46
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    AS A CONTESTED space Macedonia in the late nineteenth century suffered political, religious and paramilitary incursions made upon the population by the neighbouring nascent states and the disappearing Ottoman empire. Territorial claims were rationalised by ethnographic maps and statistical population data. Interested commentators viewed Macedonia in accordance with government policy and presented their studies as academic and scientific, even though these studies were clearly political in nature. The European Powers maintained their own pretence and acted as patrons of the small Balkan States. Although churches, schools and paramilitary bands were the primary instruments of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serb states, expansion into Macedonia was ultimately achieved by a full military mobilisation when the armies of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia marched into Macedonia in October 1912 and drove out the Ottoman Turks. The territorial division of Macedonia and claims upon the Macedonians have continued to be a matter of contention between the Balkan States into contemporary times.



    Neutral Statistics on the Population of Macedonia:

    1. Dr. K. Ostreich. Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien. Leipzig, 1905.
    2. K. Gersin. Macedonian und das Turkische Problem. Wien, 1903.
    3. Andrew Roussos. The British Foreign Office and Macedonian National Identity 1918 - 1941.

    Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
    1. 1,500,000
    2. 1,182,036
    3. 1,150,000

    Serbs
    -
    -
    -

    Bulgarians
    -
    -
    -

    Greeks (Did not call themselfs Macedonians only Greeks)
    1. 200,000
    2. 228,702
    3. 300,000

    Turks and others
    1. 550,000
    2. 627,915
    3. 400,000



    Statistics without "Macedonians"
    There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.

    1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
    Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
    Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
    Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

    2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
    Muslims - 423.000
    Greeks - 259.000
    Bulgarians - 178.000
    Serbs - 13.150
    Others (Jews) - 73.000

    Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedonians were divided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.

    3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 lived:
    Turks - 2.000
    Greeks - 1.341.000
    Bulgarisants - 77.000
    Others (Jews) - 91.000

    Submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.


    Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
    The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.

    Nikolaides, 1899 (Greek)
    Slav Macedonians - 454.000
    Greeks - 656.300
    Turks and others - 576.600

    Kenchov, 1900 (Bulgarian)
    Serbs - 400
    Bulgarians - 1.037.000
    Greeks - 214.000
    Turks and others - 610.365

    Gopchevich, 1886 (Serbian)
    Serbs - 1.540.000
    Greeks - 201.000
    Turks and others - 397.020


    Forced Change of the Ethnic Structure of Aegean Macedonia
    The presence of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia could not allow Greece to claim that land to be Greek and only Greek. Since it was proven that they resisted the Hellenization, Greece decided to drive them out of Macedonia. Greece made agreements with Bulgaria (signed 10/27/19), and Turkey (1/30/23 in Lausanne), for exchange of population. This provided for the Macedonians of Aegean to leave for Bulgaria, while the Greeks in Bulgaria and Turkey settled in the Aegean part of Macedonia. These measures changed the ethnic character of the Aegean Macedonia. According to the "Great Greek Encyclopedia", there were 1,221,849 newcomers against 80,000 "slavophones". The "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926," claims there were 119,000 "bulgarisants" in 1912, and 77,000 in 1926. The Greek ethnic map of Aegean Macedonia was submitted to the League of the nations by the Greek government. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting this statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. There are also other Greek sources that contradict the previous numbers of the Macedonians in Greece. The Athenian newspaper, "Message d' Aten" wrote on February 15, 1913, that the number of "Bulgar-echarhists" was 199,590 contradicting with those 119,000 of the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia".

    How many Macedonians remained in Greece?
    When the Bulgarian and Serbian views are added, the confusion gets only bigger. According to the Bulgarian Rumenov, in 1928 there were total of 206,435 "Bulgarians", while the Serb Bora Milojevich claimed 250,000 "Slavs" in Aegean Macedonia. Belgrade's "Politika" in its 6164 issue of June 24, 1925 gave three times greater numbers for the Macedonians in Greece than official Athens:
    "The Greek government must not complain that we are pointing to the fact that the Macedonian population of West Macedonia - 250,000 - 300,000 - is the most unfortunate national and linguistic minority in the world, not only because their personal safety in endangered, but also because they have no church nor school in their own language, and they had them during the Turkish rule."
    The speculations with the real number of Macedonians is obvious again. Their true number remains disputable in the Balkan documents, same as it was the case before the partition of 1912. Unfortunately, the Greek government would not allow anybody, including neutral observers to conduct statistical studies. Forced to leave, the Macedonians emigrated in large numbers to Australia, Canada, and the USA. As a result, there are about 300,000 Macedonians that presently live in Australia. In the city of Toronto, Canada, there are about 100,000. The present Macedonian colonies in these counties are represented mostly by the descendants of those Aegean Macedonians who settled there in the 1920's.
    According to the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926", only 42,000 left their homes. If we take the statistical tables of the Balkan and neutral sources above, by 1913 in the whole of Macedonia lived around 1,250,000 Macedonians. In the Aegean part (51%) which Greece took after 1913, half of the Macedonian nation remained under Greek rule - that would be 625,000 people. If up to 1926 42,000 out of these 625,000 left, in the Greek part of Macedonian thereafter remained 583,000 Macedonians.

  7. #132
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    DejaVu's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-10-10
    Posts
    578
    Points
    23,249
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,249, Level: 46
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United Kingdom



    This posts are enuff to show all who are against ethnic Macedonians, are wrong about their history.

  8. #133
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-10-10
    Posts
    390


    Country: Canada



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Copy/paste from macedonian propaganda sites does not help you. Fabrication of historical document and misinterpretation doesn't help either. You don't counter an enlightenment, it happens at the grassroot level, greece had one, Skopia didn't. Macedonians were invented by communists out of bulgarians. Trying to prove you are macedonian by trying disproving greeks does not make you more macedonian. You are a SLAV. All accounts point to you bulgarianess prior to WW2. And by all acouunts, this means data not fabricated by Skopian nationalist like yourself. If you hate yourself so much for being a slav that is your problem not mine. Julia is right, alexander spread helenic culture, not bulgarian you are in denial.
    Last edited by Elias2; 15-04-11 at 03:54.

  9. #134
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points

    Join Date
    26-03-11
    Location
    Copenhagen
    Posts
    43


    Country: Denmark



    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Copy/paste from macedonian propaganda sites does not help you. Fabrication of historical document and misinterpretation doesn't help either. You don't counter an enlightenment, it happens at the grassroot level, greece had one, Skopia didn't. Macedonians were invented by communists out of bulgarians. Trying to prove you are macedonian by trying disproving greeks does not make you more macedonian. You are a SLAV. All accounts point to you bulgarianess prior to WW2. And by all acouunts, this means data not fabricated by Skopian nationalist like yourself. If you hate yourself so much for being a slav that is your problem not mine. Julia is right, alexander spread helenic culture, not bulgarian you are in denial.
    I’m not a fan of what Macedonia is doing. But he does make a strong argument when it comes to modern national identity. And from what I can se the sources he points at are not fabricated.

    Modern Greek nationality is just as constructed as any other national identity. The evolution of human civilization that happened in the area is that. A part of human development. The ancient Greeks drew from knowledge from somewhere ells and added to it and then the torch was passed along.

    When the Swedish national identity was formed they made them self’s as a people of Troy. The modern Macedonians want to trace their origins to Ancient Macedonia there isn’t much Greeks can do about it.

  10. #135
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-10-10
    Posts
    390


    Country: Canada



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aconform View Post
    I’m not a fan of what Macedonia is doing. But he does make a strong argument when it comes to modern national identity. And from what I can se the sources he points at are not fabricated.

    Modern Greek nationality is just as constructed as any other national identity. The evolution of human civilization that happened in the area is that. A part of human development. The ancient Greeks drew from knowledge from somewhere ells and added to it and then the torch was passed along.

    When the Swedish national identity was formed they made them self’s as a people of Troy. The modern Macedonians want to trace their origins to Ancient Macedonia there isn’t much Greeks can do about it.
    Skopians went through three "modern" national identities in the last 100 years; Bulgarian - serbian- macedonian. History is not a commodity, and no greece is not an artificial construction, greek speaking people have been living in Greece since written history.Genetics have proven vast similarities of modern greeks to ancient ones. Greeks still ive in southern Italy as pointed out by Julias post on Magna Grecia, and Greeks in asia minor were there untill the Turks killed or forced converted them to islam (very civilized). Skopians were only told they are macedonian for expansionist purposes under communism, which is why it is unacceptable. Slavs have always wanted access to the agean, and they still do.

    Do swdish people actually think they are decended from Troy? skopians think they were never slavs or are currently not slavs when the differences between them and bulgarians are only political.

    As for manipulated sources, just as an example from alot of the lies Dejavu posted, Goce Delchev was not fighting for an independant macedonia nor did he think of himself as macedonian. He was Fighting for the region of macedonia to be annexed by bulgaria during the first balkan war. Skopians just fabricate him to make it look like he was a macedonian revolutionary. This is what they do alot with past characters and data. See again when he says that bulgarians in ottoman censuses were actually macedonians, this is not supported by any evidence or historical discourse, only skopia nationalistic interpretation,

    The struggle between the Bulgarians, led by Neofit Bozveli and Ilarion Makariopolski, and the Greeks intensified throughout the 1860s. By the end of the decade, Bulgarian bishoprics had expelled most of the Greek clerics, thus the whole of northern Bulgaria, as well as the northern parts of Thrace and Macedonia had effectively seceded from the Patriarchate. The Ottoman government restored the Bulgarian Patriarchate under the name of "Bulgarian Exarchate" by a decree (firman) of the Sultan promulgated on February 28, 1870. The original Exarchate extended over present-day northern Bulgaria (Moesia), Thrace without the Vilayet of Adrianople, as well as over north-eastern Macedonia. After the Christian population of the bishoprics of Skopje and Ohrid voted in 1874 overwhelmingly in favour of joining the Exarchate (Skopje by 91%, Ohrid by 97%), the Bulgarian Exarchate became in control of the whole of Vardar and Pirin Macedonia. The Bulgarian Exarchate was partially represented in southern Macedonia and the Vilayet of Adrianople by vicars. Thus, the borders of the Exarchate included all Bulgarian districts in the Ottoman Empire.

    "Macedonians" voted in favor of joining the bulgaian church? why didn't they just created a macedonian church right then, oh right, macedonians didn't exist.This history of the bulgarian orthodox church is long in FYROM, the modern "macedonian" church is just a break-away from the bulgarian church.

    Dejuva even goes so far as to accuse the medeival romans(Byzantines) as falsifying territories to subdue the macedonian idenity, this is a real joke. If you have to go to this length to prove something it is cleary wronge.

    FYROM are Slavs. This is a factual statement.
    Last edited by Elias2; 15-04-11 at 16:47.

  11. #136
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-10-10
    Posts
    390


    Country: Canada



    Hey Dejavu when they open the last tomb at Vergina in the Province of Macedonia do you think they will find greek or slavic artifacts? ;)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13046299
    Last edited by Elias2; 16-04-11 at 05:27.

  12. #137
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-10-10
    Posts
    390


    Country: Canada



    “Now is the time to settle the name issue, and the new climate of confidence between your country and Greece should be seized,” Jose Manuel Barroso said during a speech on Saturday at a debate on Macedonia's EU future in Skopje."

    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...on-reform-path

    All there needs to be is the word "northern" in the name, but Skopias inability to face up to its communist past is costing it dearly. 30% unemployment, massive poverty and rapid immigration out of the country, albanian insergency, yet it still claims territory of its neighbours. Diaspora skopians really don't care for this country, they just want to be called macedonian and not bulgarian.

  13. #138
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsVeteranTagger First Class50000 Experience PointsRecommendation First Class
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    LeBrok's Avatar
    Join Date
    18-11-09
    Location
    Calgary
    Posts
    10,329
    Points
    113,888
    Level
    100
    Points: 113,888, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b Z2109
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1c

    Ethnic group
    Citizen of the world
    Country: Canada-Alberta



    That's exciting Elias, I wish they televise the opening of the tomb.

    It made me thinking, what kind of culture was burring their great leaders in earth mounds, where did the tradition come from?

  14. #139
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-10-10
    Posts
    390


    Country: Canada



    The burial mound is called a "tholos" that it seems the Mycenaeans started to bury their royalty in and caught on. History channel "Engineering an Empire" tells how they were built;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aXiq...eature=related

    They start talking about it at 6 min. The Mycenaeans might of got the idea from the egyptians with their pyramids.

    off topic-
    The Engineering an Empire series which you can watch on youtube is very interesting. History channel made an episode on alot of empires: greece, rome, persia, china, russia, france, england, carthage, Byzantium, alexander, ect.

    I enjoyed the russian one very much, it made me think that it really was the "third rome"

  15. #140
    Marquis Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    iapetoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-01-11
    Location
    Katerini Pieria Makedonia
    Posts
    890
    Points
    5,706
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,706, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    That's exciting Elias, I wish they televise the opening of the tomb.

    It made me thinking, what kind of culture was burring their great leaders in earth mounds, where did the tradition come from?

    In Greece from ancient times we have 5 kinds of Burial,

    1 is Burning but exting after Christianity, and put ashes to a small house, or delive to family
    2 was similar (like Kallash), coffins with soil open to air and no burry, left in Holy Land
    simmilar American natives but Body was cover by stones and stones and placed inside a wooden coffin and a quardian to keep away Dogs in Holy land (necropolis)
    3rd is Pyramoid tombs not covered with soil,
    4rth is small Tholos,
    a) small buildings covered by soil, with a door, and mostly belong to family,
    gathered in Necropolis like Sindos etc
    b) modern way small buildings but personal
    5th is Classical Tombs with Big Tholos Belong to rich people or families


    the 4rth a) is considered that Developed in Greece and Minor Asia, The mausoleum way
    But stoped after Christianity,
    the 4rth b) is simmilar every where in Balkans and Thracian Kings are burried also like That

    the 5th is like 4rth type but mostly ambitious so only Kings allowed to have them, and many times Hidden the tomb

    the Burial of ancients Greeks are not something new,
    many customs are Egyptian like 3rd type
    many are near Eastern like gold in mouth, or seal with wax the ears.
    but there is no Mummification

    The change or the added that Greek input was soil cover of the house, so to reuse tomb

    now about characteristic are many, Mycenean tombs with 2-3 rooms as also temples have, to visit, the holy room, the crypte, is only in rich tombs,
    have unique culture, different from other tombs, and tottaly different than same time Anatolian or Italian,

    so ofcourse Greeks Boorowed data in Tomb architecture and ceremonies,
    but that doesn't mean that Myceneans were not Greeks,
    in fact yes they did, and they also input their own elements,

    the Difference about Tombs can be found in Far ancient pre-historic civilizations,
    as an example the Neolithic culture of Despilio Δεσπηλιο in Kastoria,
    and the 2 neighbor culture of Sesklo and Dimini in Magnesia,
    proves that, and in fact Sesklo is far ancient even to kurgan culture,
    But we can not speak for Greek Nation that time, or any other nation,

    remember that Sesklo is simmilar to Vinca culture but 1500 years older,
    so the Kurgan Hypothesis could be wrong, and maycomp could not be 1rst,

    in Fact is more possiple the Obsidian Valley to Be than Maycomp

    remember that obsidian Valley is near Babel tower, near Summerians etc


    simply The Mycenean Tombs Are Developed By Greeks and Considered that are Greek, cause Mycenean culture is unigue, because it combines Pelasgian with geometrical data

  16. #141
    Marquis Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    iapetoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-01-11
    Location
    Katerini Pieria Makedonia
    Posts
    890
    Points
    5,706
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,706, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    0 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Dejavu accept it, you are unwanted here, you are paranoids, who claim that Alexander was Slavic, you are paranoids, that you claim that you are more Serbians than Serbians, like claiming Dusan, more Bulgarians than Bulagarians, by claiming Samuel, Cymeon, And Sandasky, and now you are claiming that you are more Greeks than Greeks,

    Child Kidnappers are not wanted in Greece,





    You steal children from Greeks and never turn them back,
    you are worse than Mafia, criminals, and child Kidnappers,
    Tito is dead, and everybody knows who are you,
    an artificial nation,

    you are the most Fasistic country in Balkans that doesn't permit to speak Greek the kidnaped childs,
    you did not Give back the fortunes of Monasterion people (bitola)





    you murdered All Greeks, from Moanasterion, Perlepe, Eygelia etc, and you are telling me bullshit?
    at 3:04 is one of the many Greek elementary schools, were are all these people?
    at 3:08 time is the Greek highschool of Monasterion (bitola) were is it now?


    Where are they now? those people?
    WHERE ARE THE GREEKS THAT LIVED IN FYROM?


    you murdered them to prove that Slavic are majority?

    You ARE UNWANTED IN MAKEDONIA

    The communist artificial nation doesn;t exist,
    Fyrom back to Albanians, Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbians,


    WATCH CAREFULLY THAT DOWN VIDEO AT TIME 4:50
    A Greek kid in Greek language shout ' Hurray leader TITO'

    in the begining they sing a sing a song for kids,
    later they hurray to greek communist party leaders
    and at 4:50 they hurray TITO




    YOU EVEN STEAL PONTIC GREEK CHILDREN, REFUGEES FROM '23
    AND LEARN THEM SLAVIC
    NOT ONLY GREEK MAKEDONIAN, BUT EVEN PONTIC GREEK CHILDREN

    and you are telling for fyrom and occupation,

    1rst you murdered all Greeks that lived in Fyrom area,
    2nd you steal 100 000 population Greek and convert them
    and now you want the rest?


    NO WAY NAZI

    you are unwelcome here,
    stay there with your lies,

    1 800 000 Pure Makedonians will resist your Lie for ever,
    stay back Fake ones

    STOP ARTIFICIAL NATIONS
    GIVE FYROM BACK TO ITS BELONGERS,
    GIVE FYROM BACK TO ALBANIA BULGARIA SERBIA GREECE

    HELP RESTORE THE TRUTH

    Fyrom which was one of the favorite ex Communist children of communist expansion occupies land from other countries,

    Help Liberate Tettovo Albanians from Fyrom occupation
    Help restore Strumnitsa Bulgarians back to their mother land,
    Help Liberate the Serbs of Kumanovo and Skopjie

    FREEDOM TO the SUPRESSED NATIONS OF FYROMIANS NOW

    Set them free


    part b dedicated to Dejavu

    In your own language and Alphabet the National hymn of Makedonia

    Позната Македонија
    Отаџбина Александра,
    Ви сте отерали варваре,
    и сада сте Ви слободни


    Famous Makedonia
    Alexander's country
    that kick back Bulgarians (until '74, Barbarians after '74)
    and you are Free now

    Is that the language of ancient Makedonians?
    is that the alphabet of Ancient Makedonians?

    let' see Makedonians in modern Greek History,




    look at 2nd video, time 0:55, My village contribution to Makedonian Freedom from Bulgarians and Turks,

    Look at 1rst video time 7:06, The Greeks of Strumnitsa fighting the Bulgarians and the Turks
    Look at 1rst video time 0:01 The Greeks from Monasterion (Bitola)


    and as the national Anthem says about Freedom,
    the same freedom must have
    The Albanians of Tettovo,
    The Serbians of Skopjie and Kumanovo
    The Bulgarians from Strumnitsa
    The Greeks of Monasterion

    SET FREE THE PRISONERS OF AN EX-COMMUNIST MAFIA THAT STILL EXIST,
    THE FYROMIANS

    want More?

    1821 Revolution of Greek Makedonians by Karatasos,
    Arapitsa River massacre,
    at that time you were with Turks,
    Like the criminal Sandasky, the Bounty hunter of the Turks against Greeks,

    Last edited by iapetoc; 16-04-11 at 15:15.

  17. #142
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-10-10
    Posts
    390


    Country: Canada



    What I find the most ironic is it was the communists that kidnaped thousands of greek children from the province of Macedonia, bring them over the iron curtain to the communist states, and now they call it a "macedonian" genocide that the greeks commited against them. These people live in another world outside of ours, which is very small, cold and lonely.

  18. #143
    Marquis Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    iapetoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-01-11
    Location
    Katerini Pieria Makedonia
    Posts
    890
    Points
    5,706
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,706, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    For what it's worth, I think that the Republic of Macedonia should be called the "Republic of Macedonia." Macedonia is just a region, and although the supposed extent of its borders and the culture contained within its borders have fluctuated over time, that's something to note in textbooks, not to make an international issue about.

    tottaly wrong,

    Makedonia is not a region as Fyromians say,
    Makedonia is a sub nation Tribe of Greeks with its own culture language and History,
    Makedonia is connected with Blood with Greek nation,

    Fyrom was never Makedonia, not as a nation not as region,

    the problem starts from pan-slavism of Peter of Russia and rewarmed by ex-communist party of Yougoslavia,,
    it is an artificial nation so to unite Greeks serbs Bulgarians turks, albanians

    Thank we are going to take even by force,

    STEAL OTHER IDENTITY DOESN'T MAKE YOU BIG,

  19. #144
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    DejaVu's Avatar
    Join Date
    30-10-10
    Posts
    578
    Points
    23,249
    Level
    46
    Points: 23,249, Level: 46
    Level completed: 70%, Points required for next Level: 301
    Overall activity: 6.0%


    Country: United Kingdom







    Who is Nassau William Senior???
    http://www.offalyhistory.com/article...862/Page1.html

    Dont play Macedonians when you are not. Macedonians never was Greek and never will be.

  20. #145
    Marquis Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    iapetoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-01-11
    Location
    Katerini Pieria Makedonia
    Posts
    890
    Points
    5,706
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,706, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post




    Who is Nassau William Senior???
    http://www.offalyhistory.com/article...862/Page1.html

    Dont play Macedonians when you are not. Macedonians never was Greek and never will be.

    Hahahahaha

    I am from Balla, a village in Makedonia, known from ancient times, today known as Elafos
    I speak the language of ancient Makedonians

    where are you from? Paionia? skopjie of Kumans? what are you? a Cuman? a Turk? a Serb? a Bulgarian? an Albanian? you are not Makedonian anyway
    what language you speak Slavic?

    don't speak of Makedones, cause we exist 2 800 years

    if it was not The Russian and st Stephan you will be either Serbs today either Turks

    if it was not the communists and Tito you will be Bulgarians

    Help liberate the last occupied lands

    FREEDOM TO THE ALBANIANS OF TETTOVO
    FREEDOM TO THE SERBS OF SKOPJIE
    FREEDOM TO BULGARIANS OF STRUMNITSA


    Help restore the Trough and not communist LIE



  21. #146
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-10-10
    Posts
    390


    Country: Canada



    Dejavu just copy/pastes from FYROM propaganda sites, communism is still alive and well in the hearts of Skopians, they must really miss Tito. ;)

  22. #147
    Elite member Achievements:
    Recommendation Second Class1 year registered1000 Experience PointsTagger Second Class
    Michael Folkesson's Avatar
    Join Date
    20-02-10
    Posts
    131


    Country: Sweden



    Quote Originally Posted by elias2
    Do swdish(sic) people actually think they are decended from Troy?
    Not quite. At the height of Swedish power and the empire, the late 1600s, devoted nationalists of Sweden were - as nationalists often do - trying to trace and connect our origin and heritage to greatness and antiquity. Serious claims of Sweden being the mythologic Atlantis were made as well. One might take into account that this was around the time where the idea of the national state was manifested, and these - in hindsight - ridiculous claims were part of the attempts to create national unity of one people, one culture with a great common origin, and as nobody had a clue about where we came from, one fantastic claim was as possible as the next. As nation building is a slow stroll full of missteps, nationalism is anything but rational.

  23. #148
    Regular Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points
    Rastko Pocesta's Avatar
    Join Date
    19-10-10
    Location
    Belgrade (Beograd)
    Posts
    96


    Ethnic group
    Anational
    Country: Serbia



    Constitution of Macedonia says that country is called Republic of Macedonia. Therefore, that is the only name I recognise as legitimate.

    I strongly support euro-atlantic integrations of Macedonia and I respect its wealthy cultural heritage.

  24. #149
    Marquis Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points
    iapetoc's Avatar
    Join Date
    09-01-11
    Location
    Katerini Pieria Makedonia
    Posts
    890
    Points
    5,706
    Level
    22
    Points: 5,706, Level: 22
    Level completed: 32%, Points required for next Level: 344
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    Greeks
    Country: Greece



    Constitution of Fyrom say also about a Slavic Makedonia, land divide, ethnic cleansing etc. do you support also those?

    Constitution of Fyrom does mantion about about Albanians in Fyrom?
    Does mention about Bulgarians in Fyrom?
    does mention about Greeks in Fyrom?

    constitution of Fyrom wants Lands from Makedonia, do you approve that?
    wants land from Bulgaria, do you approve that?

  25. #150
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-10-10
    Posts
    390


    Country: Canada



    Macedonia is Moving Backwards, Kurt Volker

    In an interview aired this week on Alfa TV, the director of the US-based think tank, the Centre for Transatlantic Relations, blamed Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski for "elevating a sense of nationalism” to distract people from their real problems.
    "It is very sad to see how the country has been held back, not investing in the things that are necessary to advance, like political freedoms, democratic institutions, a strong economy, and integration into the EU and NATO," Volker said.
    From 1999 to 2001, Volker was deputy director of the private office of NATO's then Secretary General, Lord Robertson. In this capacity he was involved in NATO's efforts to help end the 2001 armed conflict in Macedonia.
    "Naturally it [the name dispute with Greece] is a very emotional issue, so you can rally people that way but it is really not serving the people well," Volker said.

    "What about the ability to get a job, what about corruption, the courts system, organized crime and infrastructure, all the things that can build a country?" he asked.

    Volker said he was concerned about the state of media freedom in the country, which he said had declined over the past few years. He fears that the government's grip on the media may prevent Macedonians from seeing the whole picture during the campaign for the June 5 early elections.

    "Gruevski can make his case about the ways he wants to lead Macedonia but people have to be able to listen to the alternatives," he said.

    Concerning the "name" dispute with Greece that has prevented Macedonia from entering NATO since 2008, and which is now impeding the country’s progress to the EU as well, Volker said he was not an optimist.

    “Unfortunately it [the dispute] has dragged on far too long," Volker said. "It has gotten harder over time to reach a solution rather than easier, because of the way national sentiment has been used as a political device."

    Volker said it was a "travesty" that such an issue had prevented Macedonia from moving forward in the first place. However, he said that the slow pace of reforms at home was also a problem.

    "A few years ago people had great confidence in Macedonia and it [NATO membership] would not have been a problem without the 'name' dispute. Now you are going to see renewed emphasis on meeting the standards coming from NATO and the EU," he said.

    Volker said that although Macedonia could survive without NATO and the EU, it was not in Macedonia’s interest to postpone a solution to the name dispute and be left behind while all of its neighbours make progress.

    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...ving-backwards

Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Interesting case.. where would you put her in europe?
    By julia90 in forum Anthropology & Ethnography
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 23-11-11, 23:11
  2. This is what should be done with FYR Macedonia
    By georgi94x in forum EU politics & government
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 14-05-11, 21:56
  3. Vietnam shows stance with Glitter case
    By Tokis-Phoenix in forum World News
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-03-06, 19:32
  4. Case Of Gao Rongrong, Tortured Falun Gong
    By TuskCracker in forum Other Serious Discussion
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 04-07-05, 07:48
  5. Cyprus' case
    By Maciamo in forum European News & Hot Topics
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 04-04-05, 18:47

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •