Politics The case of Macedonia

The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!


time_almanac_2010-287.png

1.8% ethnic Macedonians in Greece.
1.5% Albanians in Greece.
1.4% Turks in Greece.
0.9% Pomaks in Greece.
0.9% Roms (Gypsies) in Greece.
3.1% Other nationality in Greece.
90.4% Greeks in Greece.


Greece does not recognize Macedonian minority in Greece.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece
And this are the statistics in Wikipedia.
93.8% Greek,
4.3% Albanian,
1.9% others

1.8% Macedonians in Greece of 11,239 millions total people = more then 200 000 Macedonians.
(The others are afraid of losing their job by self-determination)

The Macedonians of Greece speak out! (over 1 million Macedonians in Greece)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnPp5740zXg
 
Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks?

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Ancient Quotes on the Macedonians as Distinct Nation[/FONT]

The ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, geographers, and orators, speak of the Macedonians as distinct nation, separate from their Greek, Thracian, and Illyrian neighbors. They are clear that Macedonia was never part of Greece and that the Macedonians conquered Greece, Thrace, and Illyria, and kept the Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians enslaved, until Rome defeated the Macedonian armies and turned the country into its first province in 168 BC. The assertion of those modern historians that propagate that the Macedonians "were Greeks" which have "united" Greece, is absurd and is completely unsupported by the words of the ancients who clearly considered Greece subjected by the Macedonian foreigners. The Macedonians garrisoned the Greek cities (like the Thracian and Illyrian cities) to enforce their occupation, and later used the Greeks (along with equal numbers of the Thracians and Illyrians) for their conquest of Persia.




The ancient Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks, nor the Macedonians regarded themselves to be Greek. They were proud of their Macedonian nationality and way of life, and looked down upon the Greeks and with contempt. The Greeks called them barbarians, along with the Persians, Illyrians, and Thracians, a label that they attributed to all non-Greeks who neither spoke nor understood the Greek language. Alexander's Macedonian Army was not a "Greek army" as some modern writers have erroneously claimed, nor the Macedonian conquest of Asia was a "Greek conquest". The fact is that not one ancient writer has called the Macedonian empire "Greek" or the Macedonian army and conquest "Greek", but specifically Macedonian. When Rome clashed with Macedonia, the Macedonians were ordered by the Romans to evacuate from the whole of Greece and withdraw to Macedonia. They were hated by the Greeks ever since Philip II defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in 338 BC and brought Greece to its kneel, and the Greeks fought fiercely, first on the side of the Persians and later on the side of the Romans to expel the Macedonians from their country. Too late would they realize that the Macedonian occupation would only be replaced by the Roman. In between the Greeks fought many unsuccessful wars against the Macedonians to drive them out of Greece, among which the Lamian War is the most famous. It should be noted that the Lamian War was triggered by the death of Alexander the Great, which encouraged the Greeks to rebel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamian_War

The “Lamian War”, also referred to as the “Hellenic War” and the “War against Antipater”, was fought by the Athenians and their Aetolian, Locrian, and Phocian allies against the Macedonians in Thessaly during the winter of (323322 BC). After some initial successes, the Athenians and her allies besieged the town of Lamia, located on the southern slope of the Othrys Mountains on the Malic Gulf, where Antipater, regent of Macedon and commander of the Macedonian forces in Europe, had taken refuge behind the substantial fortifications of the city. Unsuccessful in their siege, the rebel Athenians were eventually defeated at the Battle of Crannon in Thessaly in 322, bringing the uprising to an end.​

 
The ancient Greek language or is it Turkish?

Greek language the continuity?


TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

Ancient GREEK or is it Turkish? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populat...ece_and_Turkey
The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey was based upon religious identity, and involved the Greek Orthodox citizens of Turkey and the Muslim citizens of Greece. It was a major compulsory population exchange, or agreed mutual expulsion.
The "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" was signed at Lausanne, Switzerland, on the 30th January 1923, by the governments of Greece and Turkey. It involved approximately 2 million people, most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure denaturalized from their homelands.

The criteria for the population exchange was not excusively confined to ethnicity or mother language, but on religion as well. That is why the Karamanlides (Greek: Καραμανλήδες; Turkish: Karamanlılar), or simply Karamanlis, who were a Turkish-speaking (while they employed the Greek alphabet to write it) Greek Orthodox people of unclear origin and were deported from their native regions of Karaman and Cappadocia in Central Anatolia to Greece as well. On the other hand, Cretan Muslims who were part of the exchange were re-settled mostly on the Aegean coast of Turkey, in areas formerly inhabited by Christian Greeks. Populations of Greek descent can still be found in the Pontos, remnants of the former Greek population that converted to Islam in order to escape the persecution and later deportation. Though these two groups are of ethnic Greek descent, they speak Turkish as a mother language and are very cautious to identify themselves as Greeks, due to the hostility of the Turkish state and neighbours towards anything Greek.

1914 document showing the official figures from the 1914 population census of the Ottoman Empire. The total population (sum of all the millets) was given at 20,975,345, and the Greek population was given at 1,792,206.


Greek Refugee Settlement
Source: “Crossing the Aegean: The Consequences of the 1923 Greek-Turkish Population Exchange” by Renee Hirschon, 2003, page 181.


“A Concise History of Greece” by Richard Clogg, 1992, page 105
Refugee_settlement_concentration_ma.png


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)
Macedonia (Greece) - Population2,625,681 (2006 Estimate)
Regional identity
Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) is the term by which ethnic Greeks originating from the region are known. Macedonians came to be of particular importance during the Balkan Wars when they were a minority population inside the Ottoman province of Macedonia. The Macedonians now have a strong regional identity, manifested both in Greece and by emigrant groups in the Greek diaspora. This sense of identity has been highlighted in the context of the Macedonian naming dispute after the break-up of Yugoslavia, in which Greece objects to its northern neighbour calling itself the "Republic of Macedonia", since explicit self-identification as Macedonian is a matter of national pride for many Greeks. A characteristic expression of this attitude could be seen when Greek newspapers headlined a declaration by Prime Minister Kostas Karamanlis at a meeting of the Council of Europe in Strasbourg in January 2007, saying that "I myself am a Macedonian, and another two and a half million Greeks are Macedonians."
The exact size of the linguistic and ethnic minority groups of Macedonia is officially unknown, as Greece has not conducted a census on the question of mother tongue since 1951.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
Macedonian Greeks are ethnic Greeks who self-identify regionally as "Macedonians" (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes). They form the majority of the region's population (~51%). They number approximately 2,500,000 and live almost entirely in Greek Macedonia. The Greek Macedonian population is mixed, with indigenous and a large influx of Greek refugees descending from Asia Minor, Pontic Greeks, and East Thracian Greeks in the early 20th century. This is due to the population exchange between Greece and Turkey, during which over 1.2 million Christian refugees from Turkey were settled in Greece, 638,000 of whom were settled in Macedonia. Smaller Greek minorities exist in Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia, although their numbers are difficult to ascertain. In official census results, only 86 persons declared themselves Greeks in Bulgarian Macedonia (Blagoevgrad Province) in 2001, out of a total of 3,408 in all Bulgaria; while 442 described themselves as Greeks in the 2002 census in the Republic of Macedonia.​
 
Division of Macedonia

The events of the two wars and the final partition are the best indications of the limits to which nationalist and chauvinist passions can corrupt humanity. For example, in pursuing the Bulgarian army during the second conflict, Greek forces systematically burnt to the ground all Macedonian villages they encountered, mass-murdering their entire populations. Likewise, when the Greek army entered Kukuš (Kilkis) and occupied surrounding villages, about 400 old people and children were imprisoned and killed. Several dozen distinguished Macedonians were victims of the persecution in Kukuš, previously marked for death as potential hazards for Greek occupation. Specially trained Greek units destroyed over 40 Macedonian villages.
About 4,000 refugees from Kukuš had gathered in the village of Akandzheli when on July 6, 1913, a Greek military unit entered the village. Though met with white flags, the village was burnt down and in the massacre which followed 356 refugees were killed, including children and the elderly. In Serez, Greek police imprisoned about 200 Macedonians and subsequently executed them. About 1,000 men were slain in the town of Nigrita alone. On the whole, in the region of southern Macedonia, the Greeks destroyed 16,000 houses and 100,000 Macedonians were forced to leave their homes and flee to neighboring countries.
division_fullmap.gif

"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that
was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"
Bulgarian armies and Vrhovist bands were not any more scrupulous in respecting human life. In the small town of Dokast, inhabited by Greeks and Turks, the Bulgarians fired 270 out of 570 homes and killed a hundred people. When they occupied the town of Serez for the second time, they torched 4,000 houses out of 6,000 and massacred many of the inhabitants, mainly Turks and Greeks, on the pretext of revenging the slain Macedonian population of the town.
Nor did the Serbian "liberators" lag behind in destruction and wanton slaughter throughout Macedonia. In Bitola, Skopje, Štip and Gevgelija, the Serbian army, police and chetniks (guerrillas) committed their own atrocities.
Nor were these events to be the last tragic consequences of the Balkan Wars: an enormous number of refugees from Macedonia were compelled by threats and force to leave their homes and flee. About 112,000 refugees sought shelter in Bulgaria, 50,000 of whom were Macedonians. Greece received 157,000 refugees, mostly Turks and Greeks, who settled on the properties of Macedonian refugees. About 1,000 refugees settled on Macedonian territory occupied by Serbia. About half a million people became refugees, driven across newly-created borders-driven from one part of Macedonia to another by the rampaging armies.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
Borders of Macedonia according to different authors (1843–1927)


gladstonegoodra4.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ewart_Gladstone
William Ewart Gladstone FRS FSS (29 December 1809 – 19 May 1898) was a British Liberal statesman. In a career lasting over sixty years, he served as Prime Minister four times (1868–1874, 1880–1885, February–July 1886 and 1892–1894), more than any other person. Gladstone was 84 years old - still physically vigorous albeit with failing hearing and eyesight - when he resigned for the last time, making him Britain's oldest Prime Minister. He also served as Chancellor of the Exchequer four times (1853–1855, 1859–1866, 1873–1874, and 1880–1882).


http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Ewart_Gladstone
  • The hopelessness of the Turkish Government should make me witness with delight its being swept out of the countries which it tortures. Next to the Ottoman Government nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy than jealousies between Greek and Slav and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for the Macedonians as well as Bulgaria for the Bulgarians and Serbia for the Serbians?
    • Letter quoted in The Times (London), Mr. Gladstone and The Balkan Confederation (1897-02-06).
delchevgoodoz4.jpg

 
Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century


Record of the Macedonian language
The texts presented for analysis in this article were produced by the Institut Detudes Slave, De L’universite De Paris in 1958, and are a study based on words and phrases from Macedonia in the 16th century. It is one of the earliest manuscripts written in a purely Macedonian vernacular tongue, and its content was collected from the village of Bogatsko, which is found in the region of Kostur in the south-west of Macedonia. The author remains anonymous and the only likely conclusion that can be drawn is that he may have spoken the Macedonian language natively or acquired it as an additional tongue due to living in close proximity to people who spoke it. The texts were written using the Greek alphabet, which was not uncommon in the Balkans during the Ottoman period, as similar examples with the Albanian and Vlach languages have demonstrated. Furthermore, the ‘Bulgarian’ label that was at times attached to the Macedonian language is employed in the texts, remnant terminology that had remained in use largely due to Macedonia’s former location within the Bulgarian Empire. Despite this, however, there can be no doubt that the dialect (and indeed location) of Bogatsko belongs to Macedonia, and not Bulgaria.
Macedonia during the Middle Ages
By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.
Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.
Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics
The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.
Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).
Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).
Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.
Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’ , although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.
Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.
Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.
16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.
Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.
As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.
All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.



What was like the ancient Macedonian language?

There are only a certain number of preserved words, and from the current knowledge the structure of the ancient Macedonian can not be fully synthesised. Most of the ancient Macedonian words are different to the ancient Greek language words, however there are a few that are similar. For the words from the ancient Macedonian language that are similar to the ancient Greek language words are believed to be taken on from Greek.19) In fact, this occurrence was and still is characteristic for all languages in the world. In the Macedonian language today terms are adopted from foreign languages mainly where there is no authentic terminology or analogy. For instance: antena (antenna); satelit (satellite); mobilen telefon (mobile/cellular phone); kompjuter (computer) etc. These foreign words are being adapted in accordance with the modern Macedonian phonetic system. This needs to be taken into account when analysing the ancient Macedonian language. The authenticity and the nature of a language can not be possibly determined only by the words that language adopted from another language.

One needs to bear in mind that almost all the preserved ancient Macedonian words reached modern age through their Greek transcript which makes it more difficult to identify their true meaning. It is important that the phenomenon "Interpretato Graeca" is mentioned here, that is greekifying of all the foreign words: nouns, verbs, and especially names. A specific characteristic of this process is adding the suffix "os" or "s" to the foreign words, and this will be discussed later in this paper.

Despite all this, it is very interesting to note that many of the authentic ancient Macedonian words, according to their etymology and pronunciation, have a striking resemblance to the appropriate words used in the modern Macedonian language (and other so called "Slav" languages).
For instance, the word "tshelniku" which translated in English means foremost is a very interesting case. The British historian Hammond mentioned its etymology and said that the word "tshelniku" in the ancient Macedonian language had a meaning of "leader of a group". Hammond says that this word was translated into Greek only in the 14th century as "phylarchos".20)
The word "tshelnik" with completely identical etymology and pronunciation has been registered in the so called "old Slavic language" in Macedonia as early as 11th century! Proof of this is the entry of Byzantine chronicle writer Kekavmen where he described the events surrounding the anti-Byzantine uprising of Petar Deljan in 11th century. He said that in the language of the rebels "the strategist is called tshelnik"!21) It is known that Kekavmen was fluent in the "language of the Slavs" in Macedonia therefore he could translate the Greek word "strategist" as "tshelnik" (the strategist was a high military rank in Byzantine). It is even more interesting that the word "tshelnik" with identical etymology and pronunciation is being used in todays' Macedonian language and in other "Slav" languages, as well! This can not be a coincidence, especially considering the fact that there could be hundreds of thousands etymological meanings that a single word can represent, and in this instance there is an identical etymological meaning for a word that has also an identical pronunciation.

The remark that the middle age Macedonians simply borrowed this word from the language of ancient Macedonians and used it in 11th century is not valid. Assuming that it is so, becomes impossible to explain the fact that this word is present in the contemporary Croatian literary language. Have they inherited this word from the ancient Macedonians as well? It is the same with the contemporary Serbian and Bulgarian literary languages where this word is also present with the same pronunciation and etymology.
It is highly likely that through analysis of the word "tshelniku" some other characteristics of the ancient Macedonian language could be identified, considering the fact that in the contemporary Macedonian language this word is deducted from the noun "tshelo" - forehead.
As mentioned previously, the non-Greek words were recorded by the ancient Greeks on as-heard basis without analysing the form of the word. Due to the fact the word "tshelniku" had been recorded inclusive of the vowel "u" at the end, it is anticipated that "tshelniku" was recorded by the ancient Greeks in its vocative form. The vocative form of the noun "tshelnik" in the contemporary Macedonian language is precisely "tshelniku". Is it maybe that the Greeks used to hear the word "tshelniku" every time a Macedonian addressed the leader, therefore recorded this word without realising that they were recording its vocative form?

Another word that is also very interesting in this regard is the word "phoinikos", which is related to the warfare22). Indubitable this word is very much alike the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" meaning "soldier". There could be a little doubt that these words have a common origin. Why is this so? In the ancient Greek language the consonant "v" did not exist23). The conclusion is imminent that the true pronunciation of the word "phoinikos" would be "voinikos" ("ph" replaced with "v"). In addition to this, as established earlier in this text, ancient Greeks added the suffix "os" to a lot of non-Greek words they recorded. If the word "phoinikos" had been subjected to the "Interpretato Graeca" phenomenon i.e. if the suffix "os" had been added to this non-Greek word, by taking out the Greek suffix we arrive at the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" (soldier). Not only the pronunciation, but also the etymology of the word "voinik" is very similar to that of the word "phoinikos" and is located in the domain of warfare.

An abundance of water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary Macedonian language. The corresponding ancient Macedonian word for this is the word "vedy". The Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical "Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa, may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave the name "Edessa", was originally a Brygian city and its old name was Vedy which means abundance of water24). Furthermore, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote that ancient Macedonians had a great respect towards the water (springs, wells, rivers) and they worshiped the Macedonian divinity they called Vedy25). In this instance as well, the similarity between pronunciation of a contemporary Macedonian and an ancient Macedonian word is undeniable, and again their etymology is identical.

The contemporary Macedonian verb "pesh" (walk) in ancient Macedonian would have been pronounced "pez"26).

"Pella"27) is another ancient Macedonian word. The etymology of this word is "a stone". The corresponding word in contemporary Macedonian language is "spila", which is similar in pronunciation with the ancient Macedonian word "pella".

The ancient Macedonian word recorded through its Greek interpretation as "skoidos" bears the meaning of judges. In contemporary Macedonian this meaning is conveyed using the word "sudii"28).


There are number of ancient Macedonian words with undetermined etymology which in their pronunciation undeniably resemble contemporary Macedonian words, as well as words from other so called "Slavic languages".


A very good example is the word "arotos" which ancient Macedonians used as an epithet to the god Heracles29). Its etymology is undetermined to-date, however if the suffix "s" is deleted this word is practically identical with the adjective "aroto" - "the old one" (archaism to a degree) from the present Macedonian language. According to a legend Heracles was considered to be the oldest ascendant of the Macedonians. Can the answer for the etymology of the word "arotos" be located in this legend, by referring to Heracles as "the old one" or "aroto(s)"?


It is inevitable that the Macedonian Phalanx is mentioned in this discussion. The strongest weapon of the phalanx was the long spear called "sarissa". It is very interesting to analyse the etymology of the word "sarissa". The first and obvious question is whether the first letter of this word, the letter "s", is authentic or perhaps there should be the letter "z" instead? It is well known that the name of the Brygian (ancient Macedonian) goddess was recorded as both "Semela" and "Zemela". If this is applied to the word "sarissa" i.e. the letter "s" is replaced with the letter "z" it will transform into the word "zarissa". An exciting assumption emerges regarding the etymology of this word. The reflexive verb in its dialectical form "zari se" in the contemporary Macedonian is identical in pronunciation with the word "zarisa" (thrust itself in, pierce itself into). This is of course an assumption, which nevertheless has a solid base in the information presented in relation to the pronunciation and etymology of the words discussed previously.

By analysing ancient Macedonian words that have a determined etymology, it is possible to make some assumptions and even draw some conclusions regarding certain grammatical forms of the ancient Macedonian language. This forms are identical with the forms of the contemporary Macedonian language.

It is worth to mention that there were words in the ancient Macedonian language that (at least without performing a deeper analysis) appear to have a little in common with the contemporary Macedonian language. However, the presence of these words does not deny the existence of words from the contemporary Macedonian language in the ancient Macedonian language. In fact, for some of these words it is more than obvious that they had existed in the ancient Macedonian vocabulary.
We should also turn attention to a portion of the ancient Macedonian onomastics. At the same time it is necessary to keep in mind two things. First, there is no doubt that the ancient Macedonians (mainly those from the highest circles) accepted part of the Hellenic onomastics. But in fact a large number of Macedonian names were different than those in the Hellenic onomasticon, while a considerable number of these are reminiscent of the later Macedonian onomasticon, or are derived from words of Macedonian or from so called "Slavic" (Venetic) origin.

A second thing that needs to be kept in mind is the fact that ancient Macedonian personal names up to our own time mainly achieved written form through their Greek (and in a smaller number Latin as well) transcription. We can surmise that a considerable number of these names were given the added Greek suffixes "os" and "s", and more rarely "us". There are a lot of proofs for this, but here for lack of space we shall only mention that, in our research we have noted over 350 personal names written by ancient Greek authors, which names belonged to various non-Greek peoples. The overwhelming number of these Persian, Thracian, Illyrian, Egyptian, Scythian, Brygian, Libyan, Indian, and other personal names (but also toponyms and other words) were artificially Hellenized by the old Greek authors, adding the Greek suffix "os", and where appropriate "s". Sometimes the old Greek authors went to such lengths that the foreign name was totally changed in the process. Thus, for example, the Egyptian Pharaoh Khu-fu in Greek sources became written as CheopS (with the attached Greek suffix "s"). Later the Indian King Chandragupta was written by Greeks as SandroticOS, and so forth. Sometimes the only change to the name would be the Greek ending "os" or "s". Thus, for example, the name of the Egyptian King Psamtic was written by Greeks as PsametihOS. The Macedonian name Ata, as well, became written as both Ata and AtaS (Hellenized by addition of the suffix "s"), etc.

We've said that we have identified hundreds of such examples of artificially Hellenized non-Greek names (but also other non-Greek words) by old Greek writers, which for lack of space here, will not be mentioned. According to such practices of that time it happened that peoples from quite disparate cultures, ethnic origins (and even races) such as the Persians, Egyptians, Illyrians, Arabians, Libyans, Thracians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Indians, Macedonians, and others, all had identical (Greek) endings on their names. This is so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Therefore, in the following discussion particular attention will be paid to the roots of personal names, given the extensive artificial use of the Greek suffixes "os" and "s" (as well as "us").

 
OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

Map showing the original territory of the Kingdom of Greece as laid down in the Treaty of 1832 (in dark blue).

The consequences of the Greek revolution were somewhat ambiguous in the immediate aftermath. An independent Greek state had been established, but with Britain, Russia and France claiming a major role in Greek politics, an imported Bavarian dynast as ruler, and a mercenary army.[123] The country had been ravaged by ten years of fighting, was full of displaced refugees and empty Turkish estates, necessitating a series of land reforms over several decades.[30]
The population of the new state numbered 800,000, representing less than one-third of the 2.5 million Greek inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire. During a great part of the next century, the Greek state was to seek the liberation of the "unredeemed" Greeks of the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Megali Idea, i.e. the goal of uniting all Greeks in one country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea
Megali Idea (modern Greek: ΜεγάληΙδέα, "Great Idea") was an irredentist concept of Greek nationalism that expressed the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greeks, since large Greek populations after the Greek independence in 1832 still lived under the Ottoman rule.
The term appeared for the first time during the debates of Prime MinisterIoannis Kolettis with King Otto that preceded the promulgation of the 1844 constitution.[1] This was a visionary nationalist aspiration that was to dominate foreign relations and, to a significant extent, to determine the domestic politics of the Greek state for much of the first century of its independent existence. If the expression was new in 1844, the concept had roots in the Greek popular psyche, nurtured as it was by the prophecies and oracles that had kept alive, hopes of eventual liberation from Turkish rule.
Megali Idea implied the goal of reviving the Byzantine Empire by establishing a Greek state, which would be, as ancient geographer Strabo wrote, a Greek world encompassing mostly the former Byzantine lands from the Ionian Sea to Mikra Asia (Asia Minor) and Euxenus Pontus (Black Sea) to the east, and from Thrace, Macedonia and Epirus, north, to Crete and Cyprus to the south. This new state will have its capital in Constantinople.
The Megali Idea dominated the foreign policy and the domestic politics of Greece, from the War of Independence in the 1820s through the Balkan wars in the beginning of the twentieth century. It started to disappear after the defeat of Greece in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) and the Great Fire of Smyrna in 1922, followed by the exchange of population between Greece and Turkey in 1923.


The Greek History. Continuity of fakness.

And here is the Fake Greek enlightenment. The Fake Greeks.



And the Greeks?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lbanian_origin
Greeks (of Arvanite origin)
Andreas Miaoulis
Markos Botsaris
Laskarina Bouboulina
Nikolaos Krieziotis
Xadziyiannis Mexis
Pavlos Kountouriotis - First Greek President
Kitsos Tzavelas
Georgios Kountouriotis - Prime Minister of Greece under King Otto.
Antonios Kriezis
Dimitrios Voulgaris - He was thus one of the greatest exponents of the Modern Greek Enlightenment.
Athanasios Miaoulis
Diomidis Kiriakos
Theodoros Pangalos
Petros Voulgaris
Alexandros Diomidis
Nikos Engonopoulos
Ieronymos II - Archbishop of Athens and All Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (GERMAN)
Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek: θων, Βασιλεςτςλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King of Greece in 1832 under the Convention of London, whereby Greece became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (the United Kingdom, France and the Russian Empire).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (VLACH)
Ioannis Kolettis (Greek: ΙωάννηςΚωλέττης) (1773[citation needed] - 1847) was a Greek politician of Vlach origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (Venetian)
Count Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias (Greek: ΚόμηςΙωάννηςΑντώνιοςΚαποδίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian: Giovanni Capo d'Istria, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian: графИоаннКаподистрияGraf Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek diplomat of the Russian Empire and later first head of state of independent Greece.
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu,(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands, which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice . He studied medicine, philosophy and the law at Padua, in Italy. When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a conte (count) by Charles Emmanuel II, Duke of Savoy, and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the Libro d'Oro of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from Capodistria, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper in Slovenia and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the Libro d'Oro since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu, the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia and Turkey, Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis (Aromanian)
Theodore Kavalliotis (Greek: Θεόδωρος Αναστασίου Καβαλλιώτης, Romanian: Teodor Kavalioti, 1718 – 11 August 1789) was a Greek Orthodox priest, teacher and a figure of the Greek Enlightenment. He is also known for having drafted an Aromanian-Greek-Albanian dictionary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios (Aromanian)
Rigas Feraios or Rigas Velestinlis (Greek: Ρήγας Βελεστινλής-Φεραίος, born Αντώνιος Κυριαζής, Antonios Kyriazis; also known as Κωνσταντίνος Ρήγας, Konstantinos or Constantine Rhigas; Serbian: Рига од Фере, Riga od Fere; 1757—June 13, 1798) was a Greek writer and revolutionary, an eminent figure of the Greek Enlightenment, remembered as a Greek national hero, the first victim of the uprising against the Ottoman Empire and a forerunner of the Greek War of Independence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ent_Aromanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

Just speak Greek and have Greek name then you belong to the ancient Greeks, easy and simple.
 
karakasidou-141.png

Taken from “Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990″ by Anastasia N. Karakasidou, Published by University of Chicago Press, 1997, page 141.

nggreatesttrekp582nov1925-1.jpg

nggreatesttrekp590nov1925-1.jpg

Taken from the November issue of National Geographic year 1925. The name of the article is “History’s Greatest Trek: Tragedy Stalks Through the Near East as Greece and Turkey Exchange Two Million of Their People” By Melville Chater.

 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon
Perseus (Greek: Περσεύς) (ca. 212 BC - 166 BC) was the last king (Basileus) of the Antigonid dynasty, who ruled the successor state in Macedon created upon the death of Alexander the Great. He also has the distinction of being the last of the line, after losing the Battle of Pydna on 22 June 168 BC; subsequently Macedon came under Roman rule.

The Antigonid kingdom was dissolved, and replaced with four republics. Andriscus of Macedon broke off the Roman rule for about a year, but was defeated in 148 BC by the Romans. In 146 BC, the four republics were dissolved, and Macedon officially became the Roman province of Macedonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_p...e_of_Macedonia
Map_Macedonia_province.png

The province of Macedonia within the Roman Empire, ca. 117 AD


Roman provinces,400 AD
 
[FONT=Garamond,Garamond][FONT=Garamond,Garamond]AS A CONTESTED space Macedonia in the late nineteenth century suffered political, religious and paramilitary incursions made upon the population by the neighbouring nascent states and the disappearing Ottoman empire. Territorial claims were rationalised by ethnographic maps and statistical population data. Interested commentators viewed Macedonia in accordance with government policy and presented their studies as academic and scientific, even though these studies were clearly political in nature. The European Powers maintained their own pretence and acted as patrons of the small Balkan States. Although churches, schools and paramilitary bands were the primary instruments of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serb states, expansion into Macedonia was ultimately achieved by a full military mobilisation when the armies of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia marched into Macedonia in October 1912 and drove out the Ottoman Turks. The territorial division of Macedonia and claims upon the Macedonians have continued to be a matter of contention between the Balkan States into contemporary times. [/FONT][/FONT]

map_ottoman.jpg
map_partition.jpg


Neutral Statistics on the Population of Macedonia:

1. Dr. K. Ostreich. Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien. Leipzig, 1905.
2. K. Gersin. Macedonian und das Turkische Problem. Wien, 1903.
3. Andrew Roussos. The British Foreign Office and Macedonian National Identity 1918 - 1941.

Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
1. 1,500,000
2. 1,182,036
3. 1,150,000

Serbs
-
-
-

Bulgarians
-
-
-

Greeks (Did not call themselfs Macedonians only Greeks)
1. 200,000
2. 228,702
3. 300,000

Turks and others
1. 550,000
2. 627,915
3. 400,000



Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.

1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe, and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedonians were divided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.

3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 lived:
Turks - 2.000
Greeks - 1.341.000
Bulgarisants - 77.000
Others (Jews) - 91.000

Submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language.


Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.

Nikolaides, 1899 (Greek)
Slav Macedonians - 454.000
Greeks - 656.300
Turks and others - 576.600

Kenchov, 1900 (Bulgarian)
Serbs - 400
Bulgarians - 1.037.000
Greeks - 214.000
Turks and others - 610.365

Gopchevich, 1886 (Serbian)
Serbs - 1.540.000
Greeks - 201.000
Turks and others - 397.020


Forced Change of the Ethnic Structure of Aegean Macedonia
The presence of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia could not allow Greece to claim that land to be Greek and only Greek. Since it was proven that they resisted the Hellenization, Greece decided to drive them out of Macedonia. Greece made agreements with Bulgaria (signed 10/27/19), and Turkey (1/30/23 in Lausanne), for exchange of population. This provided for the Macedonians of Aegean to leave for Bulgaria, while the Greeks in Bulgaria and Turkey settled in the Aegean part of Macedonia. These measures changed the ethnic character of the Aegean Macedonia. According to the "Great Greek Encyclopedia", there were 1,221,849 newcomers against 80,000 "slavophones". The "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926," claims there were 119,000 "bulgarisants" in 1912, and 77,000 in 1926. The Greek ethnic map of Aegean Macedonia was submitted to the League of the nations by the Greek government. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting this statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. There are also other Greek sources that contradict the previous numbers of the Macedonians in Greece. The Athenian newspaper, "Message d' Aten" wrote on February 15, 1913, that the number of "Bulgar-echarhists" was 199,590 contradicting with those 119,000 of the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia".

How many Macedonians remained in Greece?
When the Bulgarian and Serbian views are added, the confusion gets only bigger. According to the Bulgarian Rumenov, in 1928 there were total of 206,435 "Bulgarians", while the Serb Bora Milojevich claimed 250,000 "Slavs" in Aegean Macedonia. Belgrade's "Politika" in its 6164 issue of June 24, 1925 gave three times greater numbers for the Macedonians in Greece than official Athens:
"The Greek government must not complain that we are pointing to the fact that the Macedonian population of West Macedonia - 250,000 - 300,000 - is the most unfortunate national and linguistic minority in the world, not only because their personal safety in endangered, but also because they have no church nor school in their own language, and they had them during the Turkish rule."
The speculations with the real number of Macedonians is obvious again. Their true number remains disputable in the Balkan documents, same as it was the case before the partition of 1912. Unfortunately, the Greek government would not allow anybody, including neutral observers to conduct statistical studies. Forced to leave, the Macedonians emigrated in large numbers to Australia, Canada, and the USA. As a result, there are about 300,000 Macedonians that presently live in Australia. In the city of Toronto, Canada, there are about 100,000. The present Macedonian colonies in these counties are represented mostly by the descendants of those Aegean Macedonians who settled there in the 1920's.
According to the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926", only 42,000 left their homes. If we take the statistical tables of the Balkan and neutral sources above, by 1913 in the whole of Macedonia lived around 1,250,000 Macedonians. In the Aegean part (51%) which Greece took after 1913, half of the Macedonian nation remained under Greek rule - that would be 625,000 people. If up to 1926 42,000 out of these 625,000 left, in the Greek part of Macedonian thereafter remained 583,000 Macedonians.

 
This posts are enuff to show all who are against ethnic Macedonians, are wrong about their history.
 
Copy/paste from macedonian propaganda sites does not help you. Fabrication of historical document and misinterpretation doesn't help either. You don't counter an enlightenment, it happens at the grassroot level, greece had one, Skopia didn't. Macedonians were invented by communists out of bulgarians. Trying to prove you are macedonian by trying disproving greeks does not make you more macedonian. You are a SLAV. All accounts point to you bulgarianess prior to WW2. And by all acouunts, this means data not fabricated by Skopian nationalist like yourself. If you hate yourself so much for being a slav that is your problem not mine. Julia is right, alexander spread helenic culture, not bulgarian you are in denial.
 
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Copy/paste from macedonian propaganda sites does not help you. Fabrication of historical document and misinterpretation doesn't help either. You don't counter an enlightenment, it happens at the grassroot level, greece had one, Skopia didn't. Macedonians were invented by communists out of bulgarians. Trying to prove you are macedonian by trying disproving greeks does not make you more macedonian. You are a SLAV. All accounts point to you bulgarianess prior to WW2. And by all acouunts, this means data not fabricated by Skopian nationalist like yourself. If you hate yourself so much for being a slav that is your problem not mine. Julia is right, alexander spread helenic culture, not bulgarian you are in denial.

I’m not a fan of what Macedonia is doing. But he does make a strong argument when it comes to modern national identity. And from what I can se the sources he points at are not fabricated.

Modern Greek nationality is just as constructed as any other national identity. The evolution of human civilization that happened in the area is that. A part of human development. The ancient Greeks drew from knowledge from somewhere ells and added to it and then the torch was passed along.

When the Swedish national identity was formed they made them self’s as a people of Troy. The modern Macedonians want to trace their origins to Ancient Macedonia there isn’t much Greeks can do about it.
 
I’m not a fan of what Macedonia is doing. But he does make a strong argument when it comes to modern national identity. And from what I can se the sources he points at are not fabricated.

Modern Greek nationality is just as constructed as any other national identity. The evolution of human civilization that happened in the area is that. A part of human development. The ancient Greeks drew from knowledge from somewhere ells and added to it and then the torch was passed along.

When the Swedish national identity was formed they made them self’s as a people of Troy. The modern Macedonians want to trace their origins to Ancient Macedonia there isn’t much Greeks can do about it.

Skopians went through three "modern" national identities in the last 100 years; Bulgarian - serbian- macedonian. History is not a commodity, and no greece is not an artificial construction, greek speaking people have been living in Greece since written history.Genetics have proven vast similarities of modern greeks to ancient ones. Greeks still ive in southern Italy as pointed out by Julias post on Magna Grecia, and Greeks in asia minor were there untill the Turks killed or forced converted them to islam (very civilized). Skopians were only told they are macedonian for expansionist purposes under communism, which is why it is unacceptable. Slavs have always wanted access to the agean, and they still do.

Do swdish people actually think they are decended from Troy? skopians think they were never slavs or are currently not slavs when the differences between them and bulgarians are only political.

As for manipulated sources, just as an example from alot of the lies Dejavu posted, Goce Delchev was not fighting for an independant macedonia nor did he think of himself as macedonian. He was Fighting for the region of macedonia to be annexed by bulgaria during the first balkan war. Skopians just fabricate him to make it look like he was a macedonian revolutionary. This is what they do alot with past characters and data. See again when he says that bulgarians in ottoman censuses were actually macedonians, this is not supported by any evidence or historical discourse, only skopia nationalistic interpretation,

The struggle between the Bulgarians, led by Neofit Bozveli and Ilarion Makariopolski, and the Greeks intensified throughout the 1860s. By the end of the decade, Bulgarian bishoprics had expelled most of the Greek clerics, thus the whole of northern Bulgaria, as well as the northern parts of Thrace and Macedonia had effectively seceded from the Patriarchate. The Ottoman government restored the Bulgarian Patriarchate under the name of "Bulgarian Exarchate" by a decree (firman) of the Sultan promulgated on February 28, 1870. The original Exarchate extended over present-day northern Bulgaria (Moesia), Thrace without the Vilayet of Adrianople, as well as over north-eastern Macedonia. After the Christian population of the bishoprics of Skopje and Ohrid voted in 1874 overwhelmingly in favour of joining the Exarchate (Skopje by 91%, Ohrid by 97%), the Bulgarian Exarchate became in control of the whole of Vardar and Pirin Macedonia. The Bulgarian Exarchate was partially represented in southern Macedonia and the Vilayet of Adrianople by vicars. Thus, the borders of the Exarchate included all Bulgarian districts in the Ottoman Empire.

"Macedonians" voted in favor of joining the bulgaian church? why didn't they just created a macedonian church right then, oh right, macedonians didn't exist.This history of the bulgarian orthodox church is long in FYROM, the modern "macedonian" church is just a break-away from the bulgarian church.

Dejuva even goes so far as to accuse the medeival romans(Byzantines) as falsifying territories to subdue the macedonian idenity, this is a real joke. If you have to go to this length to prove something it is cleary wronge.

FYROM are Slavs. This is a factual statement.
 
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“Now is the time to settle the name issue, and the new climate of confidence between your country and Greece should be seized,” Jose Manuel Barroso said during a speech on Saturday at a debate on Macedonia's EU future in Skopje."

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/barosso-fuele-urge-macedonia-to-stay-on-reform-path

All there needs to be is the word "northern" in the name, but Skopias inability to face up to its communist past is costing it dearly. 30% unemployment, massive poverty and rapid immigration out of the country, albanian insergency, yet it still claims territory of its neighbours. Diaspora skopians really don't care for this country, they just want to be called macedonian and not bulgarian.
 
That's exciting Elias, I wish they televise the opening of the tomb.

It made me thinking, what kind of culture was burring their great leaders in earth mounds, where did the tradition come from?
 
The burial mound is called a "tholos" that it seems the Mycenaeans started to bury their royalty in and caught on. History channel "Engineering an Empire" tells how they were built;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aXiqy6nKXc&feature=related

They start talking about it at 6 min. The Mycenaeans might of got the idea from the egyptians with their pyramids.

off topic-
The Engineering an Empire series which you can watch on youtube is very interesting. History channel made an episode on alot of empires: greece, rome, persia, china, russia, france, england, carthage, Byzantium, alexander, ect.

I enjoyed the russian one very much, it made me think that it really was the "third rome"
 
That's exciting Elias, I wish they televise the opening of the tomb.

It made me thinking, what kind of culture was burring their great leaders in earth mounds, where did the tradition come from?


In Greece from ancient times we have 5 kinds of Burial,

1 is Burning but exting after Christianity, and put ashes to a small house, or delive to family
2 was similar (like Kallash), coffins with soil open to air and no burry, left in Holy Land
simmilar American natives but Body was cover by stones and stones and placed inside a wooden coffin and a quardian to keep away Dogs in Holy land (necropolis)
3rd is Pyramoid tombs not covered with soil,
4rth is small Tholos,
a) small buildings covered by soil, with a door, and mostly belong to family,
gathered in Necropolis like Sindos etc
b) modern way small buildings but personal
5th is Classical Tombs with Big Tholos Belong to rich people or families


the 4rth a) is considered that Developed in Greece and Minor Asia, The mausoleum way
But stoped after Christianity,
the 4rth b) is simmilar every where in Balkans and Thracian Kings are burried also like That

the 5th is like 4rth type but mostly ambitious so only Kings allowed to have them, and many times Hidden the tomb

the Burial of ancients Greeks are not something new,
many customs are Egyptian like 3rd type
many are near Eastern like gold in mouth, or seal with wax the ears.
but there is no Mummification

The change or the added that Greek input was soil cover of the house, so to reuse tomb

now about characteristic are many, Mycenean tombs with 2-3 rooms as also temples have, to visit, the holy room, the crypte, is only in rich tombs,
have unique culture, different from other tombs, and tottaly different than same time Anatolian or Italian,

so ofcourse Greeks Boorowed data in Tomb architecture and ceremonies,
but that doesn't mean that Myceneans were not Greeks,
in fact yes they did, and they also input their own elements,

the Difference about Tombs can be found in Far ancient pre-historic civilizations,
as an example the Neolithic culture of Despilio Δεσπηλιο in Kastoria,
and the 2 neighbor culture of Sesklo and Dimini in Magnesia,
proves that, and in fact Sesklo is far ancient even to kurgan culture,
But we can not speak for Greek Nation that time, or any other nation,

remember that Sesklo is simmilar to Vinca culture but 1500 years older,
so the Kurgan Hypothesis could be wrong, and maycomp could not be 1rst,

in Fact is more possiple the Obsidian Valley to Be than Maycomp

remember that obsidian Valley is near Babel tower, near Summerians etc


simply The Mycenean Tombs Are Developed By Greeks and Considered that are Greek, cause Mycenean culture is unigue, because it combines Pelasgian with geometrical data
 

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