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Thread: The case of Macedonia

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    Thumbs down The case of Macedonia



    The ex-Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has seen its candidature to NATO vetoed by Greece simply because Greeks do not accept the use of the name Macedonia for this country, claiming that Macedonia is part of Greece.

    Wikipedia has an extensive article on the Macedonia naming dispute. It shows clearly that historical Macedonia is split between the Greek province and the ex-Yugoslavian republic.

    As a Belgian, I find this quarrel particularly childish. 5 of the 7 main historical states that make up modern Belgium are similarly split between Belgium and 3 neighbouring countries. Half of the old Counties of Flanders and Hainaut now lie within the borders of France; the north of the old Duchy of Brabant lies in the Netherlands; Limburg is the name of a Dutch province and Flemish one, ultimately named after a Walloon town; and Luxembourg is an independent country as well as a Belgian province of comparable size.

    I can't imagine the Belgian government arguing with its neighbours over the exclusive use of historical names or regions. That's nonsensical, as each modern country possess has much geographical rights to the name as its neighbour. The same is true for Macedonia.

    It's sad that a supposedly developed and democratic country like Greece, which was also an early member of the EU and NATO, should use such petty rhetoric to cause problems with its neighbours. The problem with Greece is that it is not just Macedonia. Such petty conflicts are also common with Turkey. Good that the Italians did not name one of their provinces or regions "Magna Grecia", otherwise one could have expected the Greeks to protest similarily.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 08-10-10 at 09:37. Reason: spelling
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    I spent a bit of time in Greece in my younger years, a lovely country but the heat was incredible nothing like I had ever experienced before in cold wet Dublin. I really liked the people as well very passionate but a bit hot tempered and volatile, I put a certain amount of this down to the climate. I knew they had had a bad time of it under Turkish rule but I could never avoid a bit of mischief, when a woman asked me if I was English (as happens alot abroad) I replied no Irish and she says English Irish no difference. So I point at her and say Greek Turk whats the difference, well if looks could kill, she turned on her heal and stormed off.

    I think with some countries more than others there's alot more going on under the surface than pure logic, look at Pakistan and India its all ways religion with Greece its very much history.

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    Hello,
    let me introduce myself, I'm Atanas from Skopje, Macedonia.

    I can tell you a little over the Macedonian-Greek issue. It dates back from the period of the late 19th - early 20th century, when Macedonia was still an Ottoman province

    All indepdent countries / kingdoms at that time, were trying to place their education and languages in the schools and churches all over Macedonia: Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek, in order to expell the Turks from Macedonia and the conquer much more land for themselves.
    If reason for the First Balkan War was the end of the Turks in Europe, then the Second one was for the division of Macedonia between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece (please see Aegean, Vardar, Pirin parts of Macedonia). What is today's Republic of Macedonia is used to be the Vardar part which was given to Kingdom of Serbia, later Yugoslavia.
    The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.

    That's the main reason why Macedonia has become Greek since 1980 and why Republic of Macedonia today is not a NATO member country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atanas View Post
    Hello,
    let me introduce myself, I'm Atanas from Skopje, Macedonia.

    I can tell you a little over the Macedonian-Greek issue. It dates back from the period of the late 19th - early 20th century, when Macedonia was still an Ottoman province

    All indepdent countries / kingdoms at that time, were trying to place their education and languages in the schools and churches all over Macedonia: Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek, in order to expell the Turks from Macedonia and the conquer much more land for themselves.
    If reason for the First Balkan War was the end of the Turks in Europe, then the Second one was for the division of Macedonia between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece (please see Aegean, Vardar, Pirin parts of Macedonia). What is today's Republic of Macedonia is used to be the Vardar part which was given to Kingdom of Serbia, later Yugoslavia.
    The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.

    That's the main reason why Macedonia has become Greek since 1980 and why Republic of Macedonia today is not a NATO member country.
    It would be interesting to see, when the Slavs in region of Macedonia began to use name Macedonians for themselves. As I know, in 19th century they were mostly defined as Bulgarians, and in northwestern part of nowadays Macedonia as Serbs. The name Macedonians for Slavs in region of Macedonia was introduced in late 19th century. It was rather artificial designation for people with undefined national identity.
    The same thing happened with Muslim Slavs of Bosnia who usurped name of state Bosnia and designated themselves as Bosniaks today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The ex-Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia has seen its candidature to NATO vetoed by Greece simply because Greeks do not accept the use of the name Macedonia for this country, claiming that Macedonia is part of Greece.

    Wikipedia has an extensive article on th It shows clearly that historical Macedonia is split between the Greek province and the ex-Yugoslavian republic.

    As a Belgian, I find this quarrel particularly childish. 5 of the 7 historical main states that make up modern Belgium are similarly split between Belgium and 3 neighbouring countries. Half of the old Counties of Flanders and Hainaut are now in France; the north of the old Duchy of Brabant lies in the Netherlands; Limburg is a name of a Dutch and Flemish province named after a Walloon town; and Luxembourg is an independent country and a Belgian province of the same size.

    I can't imagine the Belgian government arguing with its neighbours over the exclusive use of historical names or regions. That's nonsensical, as each modern country possess has much geographical rights to the name as its neighbour. The same is true for Macedonia.

    It's sad that a supposedly developed and democratic country like Greece, which was also an early member of the EU and NATO, should use such petty rhetoric to cause problems with its neighbours. The problem with Greece is that it is not just Macedonia. Such petty conflicts are also common with Turkey. Good that the Italians did not name one of their provinces or regions "Magna Grecia", otherwise one could have expected the Greeks to protest similarily.
    The Historical boundaries is not what this debate is about, even though FYROM posssses little of ancient Macedon pre-alexander, used to have. The problem is this notion of a "Greater macedonia", which they are actively taught in schools.


    Their invented Identity post WW2 as "Macedonians" makes them think they have rights to Greek and Bulagrian Land, and Greek and Bulgarian History. And this I idea of a "greater macedonia" is what they are taught in schools and at home. Greece has no problem when they call themselves macedonians, but by having a country with the name "Republic of Macedonia" propagates ownership of foriegn land, which they pursue through propaganda like the one I just showed, and national rallies where they wave flags outlining their asperations.

    This is why Greece cannot let it be. A simple "Northern", "New", or "Vardar" in the name would clearly differenciate it between Greek, or bulgarian macedonia. We see this used throughout the world in examples like northern Ireland and North Korea.

    I won't get into the cultural and ethnic differences between these "Macedonians" and ancient Macedonians, which they claim they are decended from, even though they proclaim to be slavic aswell.

    Why do you find it "childish" when Greeces neighboors infrienge on its sovereignty and Greece speaks up for itself?

    The same goes with Turkey. Daily, Turkish fighter jets violate Greek airspace, and the Greek Airforce has to drive them back, airspace over greek owned islands. The same goes with the enlargment of greek territorial waters to 12 km offshore. Greek has the international right to do this yet Turkey threatens war with greek should they impose it in the Agean, yet they themselves claime 12 km off North and southern Turkey.

    The same Turkish hypocracy can be found in the illegal occupation of Northern Cypus. Turkey frowns apound the palestinian occupation yet they themselves do the same. Turkey nor the enhabitants of northern cyprus want to reunify, they think if they prolong it they will get recongnised eventually, even though the ICJ ruled the invasion illegal. And pro Turkish plans like the "anna plan" undermines democracy and makes turkish votes more important than greek votes.

    A country like turkey who breaks many international laws, and human rights should be facing sanctions but insted they are activley seeking EU membership supported by Britain to combat the Franco-german alliane over the EU. This is why Britain is so pro-Turkey.


    So I ask you again, why do you think it is childish when greece speaks up for its own intrests?

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    Quote Originally Posted by atanas View Post
    Hello,
    let me introduce myself, I'm Atanas from Skopje, Macedonia.

    I can tell you a little over the Macedonian-Greek issue. It dates back from the period of the late 19th - early 20th century, when Macedonia was still an Ottoman province

    All indepdent countries / kingdoms at that time, were trying to place their education and languages in the schools and churches all over Macedonia: Serbian, Bulgarian and Greek, in order to expell the Turks from Macedonia and the conquer much more land for themselves.
    If reason for the First Balkan War was the end of the Turks in Europe, then the Second one was for the division of Macedonia between Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece (please see Aegean, Vardar, Pirin parts of Macedonia). What is today's Republic of Macedonia is used to be the Vardar part which was given to Kingdom of Serbia, later Yugoslavia.
    The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.

    That's the main reason why Macedonia has become Greek since 1980 and why Republic of Macedonia today is not a NATO member country.
    I don't know weather you are lying activley or just don't know better from what I see you are taught in FYROM schools. The first balkan war was Bulgaria-Serbia-Greece kicking Turkey out of the balkans. The Second one started when Bulgaria thought it deserved more land because it had alot of bulgarian nationalists in lands going to serbia and greece. They procceded to attack serbian and greek army posts until they were stoped when Romania enter the war against them form the north. Greece has Greek macedonia in its baorders which coiencides with the ancient greek city state of Macedon, more or less. While it is true Greece then forced slavic people out of the land, they did not call themselves "macedonians", nor think of themselves as "macedonians", these were bulgarian nationalists seeking a "Greater Bulgaria" Stop telling lies. greece denies the excistance of a macedonian ethnicity because there isn't one. There are slavic people living in a country they called macedonia, but they are still slavic.

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    This bantering back and forth is exactly why I continue to worry about the bitterness and petty nationalism that occurs around the disaster of the former Yugoslavia. I am afraid that it will not end until each one of the ethnic regions builds a wall around the territory they claim and forces out any other ethnic group in their territory.
    I don't think it will end until the people in the area decide that they are tired of the bitterness and decide to join into a greater European community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristander View Post
    This bantering back and forth is exactly why I continue to worry about the bitterness and petty nationalism that occurs around the disaster of the former Yugoslavia. I am afraid that it will not end until each one of the ethnic regions builds a wall around the territory they claim and forces out any other ethnic group in their territory.
    I don't think it will end until the people in the area decide that they are tired of the bitterness and decide to join into a greater European community.
    I call it the balkan circus, no one respecs anyone in the balkans, everyone claims outrageous things, and no one respects boarders.

    It's not that Yugoslavia fell apart that was bad, it was the caotic way it happened, and the very rushed way of carving up the different pieces. Now you have in bosia 1.5 million serbs who want to seperate in republic serbska, you have 25% of the population of FYROM as albanians who were caught at the boarder smuggling weapons into the country. You have nationalistic propaganda from FYROM claiming greek and balgarian land. You have Turkey sending warplanes over greek islands, and large amount of illegal immigration pouring in through Thrace, and you had the a whole province in serbia stripped away from it by a people that already have a country.

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    Through the history the nations, ethnicities and borders where moved all over the Balkans, and most of Europe. Many people still long and demand the border of their countries at it's largest extend. That would always infringe on demands of maximum borders from the neighbors. It cannot be solved without conflict, or war, then another one and so on...
    It's time to forget about the past demands, and settle in today's borders. We shall all be better working and trading together, than bickering about lost square kilometers. It's time to stop ridiculing neighbors, but embracing them and their differences instead.
    The Europe will be more peaceful and prosperous, the borders will open, and people can mingle and enjoy neighbours companion.
    Isn't it better than dwelling on lost things in the past and to make a war? Why would you want to start the conflict, kill a million of your neighbors to increase a size of you country few thousand of square kilometers? Will it solve the problem? Then in hundred years your neighbor will get stronger, attack and kill to take the land back. And they might think it's finely over...
    We have to make final decision and settle in today's borders, and make the best of it. Prosperity of countries nowadays doesn't depend on much land anymore, as it was in past. Even if you in smaller country that you want to be, you can make it rich, successful, open and free. All you have to do is embracing today's science and economy as the driving forces.
    Give your neighbors a chance, they are good people too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Through the history the nations, ethnicities and borders where moved all over the Balkans, and most of Europe. Many people still long and demand the border of their countries at it's largest extend. That would always infringe on demands of maximum borders from the neighbors. It cannot be solved without conflict, or war, then another one and so on...
    This is also childish. Belgium has its fair share of inter-linguistic conflicts, but French and Dutch speakers never try to claim each others territory past the linguistic divide. Where people speak Flemish it's Flanders; where they speak French, it's Wallonia. Brussels was created as a separate region because it is pluri-linguistic. I can't imagine Walloons trying to claim the Flemish province of Limburg because it was historically a fief of the Principality of Liège ! It has always been Flemish speaking, so it makes sense that it should be part of Flanders.

    The only territorial problem in Belgium relates to Brussels. The national capital is historically located in Flanders, but has been predominantly French-speaking for over 150 years. The autonomous region of Brussels was created in 1989 with predominantly French-speaking municipalities surrounding the historical core of the city. Unfortunately, politicians decided not include a few municipalities on the outskirts that were over 50% French-speaking. Some of them are now over 90% Francophone and request to right to join the Brussels region, as should have been done back in 1989. As these are all rich municipalities and Flanders doesn't want to let them go and lose their tax revenues, this problem causes a lot of frictions. But there is no way it could cause a war or major upheavals.

    Now why is it that people in the Balkans cannot sit around a table and discuss their problems rationally between neighbours, instead of killing each others ?

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    i am always amazed to see how the great greece civilization could turn into such a shallow nationalist, lazy country. Instead of shaping new ıdeas and prooving that they are sons of those ancient gods, they are just messing other countries. one day people will get bored of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    This is also childish. Belgium has its fair share of inter-linguistic conflicts, but French and Dutch speakers never try to claim each others territory past the linguistic divide. Where people speak Flemish it's Flanders; where they speak French, it's Wallonia. Brussels was created as a separate region because it is pluri-linguistic. I can't imagine Walloons trying to claim the Flemish province of Limburg because it was historically a fief of the Principality of Liège ! It has always been Flemish speaking, so it makes sense that it should be part of Flanders.

    The only territorial problem in Belgium relates to Brussels. The national capital is historically located in Flanders, but has been predominantly French-speaking for over 150 years. The autonomous region of Brussels was created in 1989 with predominantly French-speaking municipalities surrounding the historical core of the city. Unfortunately, politicians decided not include a few municipalities on the outskirts that were over 50% French-speaking. Some of them are now over 90% Francophone and request to right to join the Brussels region, as should have been done back in 1989. As these are all rich municipalities and Flanders doesn't want to let them go and lose their tax revenues, this problem causes a lot of frictions. But there is no way it could cause a war or major upheavals.

    Now why is it that people in the Balkans cannot sit around a table and discuss their problems rationally between neighbours, instead of killing each others ?
    The problem is in your last paragraph. Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational. They do whatever they want.

    Albania is controled by the mofia and do illegal drug and arms trading to their neighbooring countries like kosovo, albanians in FYROM, and in greece. FYROM's propaganda is rediculous and they can't meet half way with greece because they've taken it too far already. And Turkey, well barbarians post sums it up. They care only about themselves, and bully every one of their neighbours. They can't even come to terms with what they did to the armernian population 100 years ago. "barbarian" is a suitable name. I think Greece should shoot down the next turkish plane over a greek island and extend their territorial water boarder to 12 km which is their international right.

    The problem I have with the way you think maciamo is you take a more civilized debate like the one going on in Bulgium where people listen to each other and debate it and apply it to the balkans where it is the opposite. The EU should put more pressure on these countries to not break international law.

    Let me put it this way. International law was broken when kosovo became an independant country because it disregarded serbias sovereign rights over its territory. So why can't republic of serbska do the same? double standards?

    Balkan circus

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    The problem is in your last paragraph. Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational. They do whatever they want.

    They care only about themselves, and bully every one of their neighbours.

    I think Greece should shoot down the next turkish plane over a greek island and extend their territorial water boarder to 12 km which is their international right.

    "barbarian" is a suitable name.
    your own words answers yourself.

    you cannot be the sons of socrates.

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    meis.JPG
    this foto is from one of our vacations. the island behind us is a greek island (meis) and 1.3 km from Kas-turkey. 12 km of territorial water boarder would make us really brothers and sisters.
    egemen1.jpg
    and this one shows some greek islands and 6 km of territorial water boarder. i believe 6 km is even more than enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    meis.JPG
    this foto is from one of our vacations. the island behind us is a greek island (meis) and 1.3 km from Kas-turkey. 12 km of territorial water boarder would make us really brothers and sisters.
    egemen1.jpg
    and this one shows some greek islands and 6 km of territorial water boarder. i believe 6 km is even more than enough.
    You obviously have no idea how water boundaries work, and what happens when two water boundaries meet. Maybe you should look it up before you continue to make a fool of yourself. And it its not your right to decide what greece thinks it is acceptable for its boundaries, espacially its internation right to these boundaries. This is a classic example of how Turkey doesn't respect international law or Greeces Sovereignty.

    Then again it is not in Turkey's best interest to adhear to international law, because if they did the following would happen:

    1. The cyprus issue would be resolved, and the island would unify. International Court of Justice ruled the invasion illegal a long time ago.
    2. Recognition of the Armenian genocide
    3. Rights to its Kurdish population and other minorities
    4. the recognition to Greeces international right of 12 km maritime boarder, and the hault of illegal warplanes flying over Greece
    5. Free speach and freedom of expression for all inside of Turkey, which means children won't go to jail because they choose to speak their indiginous language of Kurdish.

    Turkey might become a decent country if these were to happen, sadly, they choose the regional bully title insted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    You obviously have no idea how water boundaries work, and what happens when two water boundaries meet. Maybe you should look it up before you continue to make a fool of yourself. And it its not your right to decide what greece thinks it is acceptable for its boundaries. This is a classic example of why there are problems with unrational/uneducated neighbours.
    well, no need to answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    well, no need to answer.
    After looking at the map you posted, there are islands in the middle of the agean with a differnt colour shade that the greek ones. I don't read turkish but are these islands Turkey thinks it has claim to?

    No wonder you are so confused about this issue! The only islands turkey owns in the agean are off the north west part of turkey, Gokceada and Bozcaada!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    5. Free speach and freedom of expression for all inside of Turkey, which means children won't go to jail because they choose to speak their indiginous language of Kurdish.
    i decided not to argue with you any more. and i am already sad that i write too much in such a unrelated topic. but, i must say that it is free to speak kurdish in turkey. there is even an official kurdish tv.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    i decided not to argue with you any more. and i am already sad that i write too much in such a unrelated topic. but, i must say that it is free to speak kurdish in turkey. there is even an official kurdish tv.
    How do you explain this then?

    BBC News, Istanbul: Young, Kurdish & jailed in Turkey!


    “Turkish society has a kind of paranoia about disintegration, secession,” says Ergon Ozbudun, one of the country’s most renowned legal scholars, who has long pushed for reform of the military-drafted constitution.”In the minds of many Turks a strong state, with a strong hand, is a must. In Europe and elsewhere in the Western world, the judiciary is primarily the protector and guarantor of individual rights and liberties. Here the picture is reversed; the judiciary is the protector and guarantor of the official ideology and the dominance of the state.”Hundreds of children in Turkey’s Kurdish south-east have been jailed for taking part in anti-government protests, and are treated no differently from adults.
    Berivan Sayaca is an attractive, 15-year-old Kurdish girl with black, wavy hair who loves horse-riding and playing the guitar.
    She is also a convicted terrorist – serving an eight-year sentence in the high-security prison in Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey. How she got there is a tale that could be straight out of Kafka, that exposes one of modern Turkey’s darkest sides."


    They say she is a terrorist, how can a child know what a terrorist even is? I cannot post the URL because I havn't posted enough in this forum to do so, but you can check it out on google.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    How do you explain this then?

    BBC News, Istanbul: Young, Kurdish & jailed in Turkey!


    “Turkish society has a kind of paranoia about disintegration, secession,” says Ergon Ozbudun, one of the country’s most renowned legal scholars, who has long pushed for reform of the military-drafted constitution.”In the minds of many Turks a strong state, with a strong hand, is a must. In Europe and elsewhere in the Western world, the judiciary is primarily the protector and guarantor of individual rights and liberties. Here the picture is reversed; the judiciary is the protector and guarantor of the official ideology and the dominance of the state.”Hundreds of children in Turkey’s Kurdish south-east have been jailed for taking part in anti-government protests, and are treated no differently from adults.
    Berivan Sayaca is an attractive, 15-year-old Kurdish girl with black, wavy hair who loves horse-riding and playing the guitar.
    She is also a convicted terrorist – serving an eight-year sentence in the high-security prison in Diyarbakir, the largest Kurdish city in Turkey. How she got there is a tale that could be straight out of Kafka, that exposes one of modern Turkey’s darkest sides."


    They say she is a terrorist, how can a child know what a terrorist even is? I cannot post the URL because I havn't posted enough in this forum to do so, but you can check it out on google.
    i cannot see nothing there like she is jailed because of her kurdish language.
    in that part of turkey parents do not want to send their daughters to school and for this reason goverment pay money if they send their child to the school. goverment also give them "green card" so that they can meet all of their medical issues free. they dont pay for electricity also.

    and here is the trt şeş: natinal kurdish tv. turkish PM is on the screen
    p_09533_o.jpg

    note: father of my grandfather is kurdish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    i cannot see nothing there like she is jailed because of her kurdish language.
    in that part of turkey parents do not want to send their daughters to school and for this reason goverment pay money if they send their child to the school. goverment also give them "green card" so that they can meet all of their medical issues free. they dont pay for electricity also.

    and here is the trt şeş: natinal kurdish tv. turkish PM is on the screen
    p_09533_o.jpg

    note: father of my grandfather is kurdish.
    Read the rest of the article, it says she was jailed for standing up to your government in the face of repression. They then accused her of having links to the PKK to throw her in jail. I'm willing to bet that Kurdish TV station is controled by the government, or at least influence heavily by.

    I feel bad for the Kurds. The Turkish government have by repressing them for 100 years now. They were told if they go and kill Armenians en messe that they would be rewarded with a country called Kurdistan. Insted after the blood was spilled, your governemnt said no, labeled them as "mountain turks" and have activley trying to assimulate them into turkish society ever since. I remember when your president Erdgoran on his trip to Germany said that it is a crime to assimulate turkish people into german society, yet Turkey have been doing that for 100 years now! The hypocrasy of turkey knows no limits!

    If your great grand-father was kurdish, and lived in the eastern half of what is now turkey, he more than likely saw, or even took part in the genocide.

    I don't want Turkey and Greece to continue to have hostile relations with each other, but really its because of your government that it remains this way, in cyprus and in the agean. Its up to Turkey when they want to hold out a hand to greece of friendship, greece will be waiting to shake it back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by atanas View Post
    Hello,

    The problem with Greece is the following: Greece has almost half of ethnical-geographical Macedonia into Greek borders, has expelled, brutally by force or killed over 500.000 ethnic Macedonians from that region. Today there are many of them living in Macedonia, Bulgaria, Australia, USA/Canada and Poland, which still cannot enter Greece to visit their parents native places. Greek government denies the existense of Macedonians, therefore no Macedonian can be spoken in the Greek schools, although the Macedonian language is widely spoken in large areas of north Greece.
    you may feel sad for them also, since you are such a humanist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    you may feel sad for them also, since you are such a humanist.
    I do, I don't like it when anyone is forced from their homes, like in the cases of northern cyprus, pontus, the 1955 Pogrom of Constantinople (I have a friend whos Grandmother was forced out of Constantinople), armenia, or kurdish villiages. There are a couple of things to remember about these "macedonians" who were expelled from greece:

    1. They did not refer to themselves as or have a national councesness as being "macedonians" These people at the time of the Balkans Wars were Bulgarian nationalists envisioning a "Greater Bulgaria". This is the reasoning for the second balkan war which occured right after the first, when Bulgaria attacked serbian and greek military posts. Bulgaria went on to lose the war which gave the Vardar river Region to Yugoslavia, and the bulgarians living in it, which leads me to my next point.

    2. There are no such thing as a seperate macedonian ethnicity. The people of FYROM are closely related to bulgaria and Serbia, the southern slavic peoples. All three said countries are apart of thr slavic union organisation. If you look at old Ottoman ethnographic maps of the Balkan region at the time or prior, there is no seperate "macedonian" people labeled. Interestly enough, there is no seperate "turk" label either, just muslims. The idea of being "Macedonian" was an idea of communist Yugoslavia, and Tito's vision of seperate republics inside of Yugoslavia.

    The difference between what happened to these people and the people of asia minor is the Greek government doesn't throw peopel in jail for talking about it. In Turkey anything pro armenian or pro kurdish is seen as a crime, or in the case of the armenian journalist, a death warrent. Greece doesn't try to hide that these things happen or try to alter history, something Turkey can learn from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    It would be interesting to see, when the Slavs in region of Macedonia began to use name Macedonians for themselves. As I know, in 19th century they were mostly defined as Bulgarians, and in northwestern part of nowadays Macedonia as Serbs. The name Macedonians for Slavs in region of Macedonia was introduced in late 19th century. It was rather artificial designation for people with undefined national identity.
    The same thing happened with Muslim Slavs of Bosnia who usurped name of state Bosnia and designated themselves as Bosniaks today.

    Oh I like this explanation.

    Maciamo it seemed childish to me for a long time also but then I realised that identity theft goes beyond issues of childishness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    I do, I don't like it when anyone is forced from their homes,
    then why dont you add greece to this sentence?
    "Albanians, Macedonians, and Turks are not rational. They do whatever they want..."

    because you can just see what your people wanted to show you, just like turkish people in my country. that is why you are not anymore great greece culture.

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