Egyptian civilisation and ancient Egyptians

[Taranis]

:ashamed2: Forgive me for this error. You are the first to have brought it to my attention. The source for these numbers was based on a misreading of this table:

http://olmec98.net/cruciani.jpg

from the study. I did not purposely try to mislead you or anyone else.

I'll apologize for my accusation then. The "Y (xR1b)" in the row refers to number of total samples of Y-DNA (I assume that it does not add up to 100% because they were not always able to gather/process all DNA samples that they had taken.

I am however correct that the frequencies of R1 still reach 100% in West African populations, but subsequently has an absence of any other non African haplogroup. Why is this? Were the proto Afro-Asatic speakers who you claim migrated into this region from the Levant comprised entirely of haplogroup R? If not (which is a given) then explain the current circumstance.

As far as I understand the paper, there's no evidence of Haplogroup R in (sub-Saharan) Africa other than R1b-V88. All known samples of Haplogroup R* (that is, positive for M207 marker which refines Haplogroup R, but negative for the M173 and M479 markers which define Haplogroups R1 and R2, respectively). All known samples of R* are from southern Asia (Iran, Pakistan, India):



(from http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html )

also, related:

"In contrast, their sister branch R, defined by M207, ac- counts for more than one-third of Indian Y chromo-
somes and is the most common clade throughout north-
western Eurasia. Its daughter clades R1 and R2 are both
found in tribal and caste groups. Clade R1 splits into
R1a and R1b, which are similarly variable in Indians
(fig. 3) and western Asians but are less so in Estonians,
Czechs, and central Asians (table 5). R2 (previously mis-
identified as “P1” [YCC 2002]) has a more specific
spread, being confined to Indian, Iranian, and central
Asian populations (table 3)."

(from http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929707605412 )

In a nutshell, there can be no doubt about the Eurasian origin of R1b. It's way too far up in the Y-DNA "tree" to have originated in Africa. This is also what Cruciani et al. write, and they also consider the idea that R1b is indigenous to sub-saharan Africa as unlikely:

According to the phylogeography of macro-haplogroup K-M9 (which contains haplogroup R1b), an ancient Asia-to-Africa back migration has been hypothesized to explain the puzzling presence of R-P25^* in sub-Saharan Africa.¹⁸ This hypothesis is strongly supported by the present data. In the revised Y chromosome phylogeny, there are 119 lineages in the macro-haplogroup K-M9 (which includes haplogroups K1-K4 and L to T).³¹ Of these lineages, only two have been observed in sub-Saharan Africa at appreciable frequencies: T-M70^{18,41, 42} and R-V88 (this study). Both haplogroups have also been observed in Europe and western Asia (Refs 42,43 and this study). If the presence of R1b chromosomes in Africa was not because of a back migration, we would have to assume that all the mutations that connect M9 with V88 in the MSY phylogeny (>50 mutations) originated in Africa. Under this scenario, we should assume that all the K-M9 lineages that are now found outside sub-Saharan Africa have survived extinction, whereas those which should have accumulated in Africa are now extinct (with the exception of T-M70 and R-V88) and this is an unlikely scenario.

Another question is why is it seen in such low frequencies across other Afro-Asiatic speakers in northern Africa (except for 26% in Siwa Egyptian Berbers), but again reaches 100% frequencies in West-Central Africa.

My assumption is that this was a founder effect in the Chadic region.

 

[Taharqa]

If you are using white as a term for caucasoid then yes, they are.

From a scientific perspective the concept of "race" is invalid, which is what the term "Caucasoid" (Negroid and Mongloid ect ect) was originally used for. Therefore the debate on which "race" the ancient Egyptians should be viewed from a social perspective. The social concept of race is based upon the grouping of people based on their external anatomical traits, and this is where biological evidence becomes comes into play. The Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt for example has defined the most common definition that Western society labels black Africans or "Negroid" populations under:

"Two opposing theories for the origin of Dynastic Egyptians dominated scholarly debate over the last century: whether the ancient Egyptians were black Africans (historically referred to as Negroid) originating biologically and culturally in Saharo-Tropical Africa, or whether they originated as a Dynastic Race in the Mediterranean or western Asian regions (people historically categorized as White, or Caucasoid). "

Which was followed by the summarization of consistent conclusions of biological analysis:

"There is now a sufficient body of evidence from modern studies of skeletal remains to indicate thatthe ancient Egyptians, especially southern Egyptians, exhibited physical characteristics that are within the range of variation for ancient and modern indigenous peoples of the Sahara and tropical Africa. In general, the inhabitants of Upper Egypt and Nubia had the greatest biological affinity to people of the Sahara and more southerly areas."

and

Any interpretation of the biological affinities of the ancient Egyptians must be placed in the context of hypothesis informed by the archaeological, linguistic, geographic or other data. In this context the physical anthropological evidence indicates that the early Nile Valley populations can be identified as part of an African lineage, but exhibiting local variation. This variation represents the short and long term effects of evolutionary forces, such as gene flow, genetic drift, and natural selection influenced by culture and geography

link

Therefore your persistent assertion that they were "Caucasoid" or Western Eurasian in phenotype is incorrect, at least according to this authoritative source. :wink:

1) Afrocentrism:

Your points from first glance appear to be pertaining more to ideology than to actual biological or cultural facts in regards to this subject. Attaching buzzwords such as "Afrocentric" or even "Eurocentric" does not discredit the argument.

It is my understanding that Afrocentrists believe that the original Egyptians were negroid, and at some point were either driven off or killed off by Semitic invaders from the Middle East.

Personally I don't know what your perception or definition of an "Afrocentric" individual is, but that is not at all my point of view on the subject. The majority of the modern inhabitants in modern day Egypt are in fact the descendants of the ancient Egyptians. One question often put forth to people who assert that the original ancient Egyptians were black Africans to the south, is well why don't modern Egyptians look like black Africans or instead have a phenotype that is somewhat intermediate between black Africans and Middle Easterners.

The simple answer to what happened to the original phenotype of the ancient Egyptians is assimilation, not "genocide" or mass displacement. This assimilation of people with "Asiatic" phenotypes did not suddenly occur during the Arab invasion of 700 A.D., but was a slow prolonged process stemming since Old Kingdom which began to take notice during the New Kingdom. This is why it has been consistently found that Late Period Egyptians were biologically distinct (which does not negate "continuity" by the way) from Egyptians of the times prior:

Previous analyses of cranial variation found the Badari and Early Predynastic Egyptians to be more similar to other African groups than to Mediterranean or European populations (Keita, 1990; Zakrzewski, 2002). In addition, the Badarians have been described as near the centroid of cranial and dental variation among Predynastic and Dynastic populations studied (Irish, 2006; Zakrzewski, 2007). This suggests that, at least through the Early Dynastic period, the inhabitants of the Nile valley were a continuous population of local origin, and no major migration or replacement events occurred during this time.

Studies of cranial morphology also support the use of a Nubian (Kerma) population for a comparison of the Dynastic period, as this group is likely to be more closely genetically related to the early Nile valley inhabitants than would be the Late Dynastic Egyptians, who likely experienced significant mixing with other Mediterranean populations (Zakrzewski, 2002). A craniometric study found the Naqada and Kerma populations to be morphologically similar (Keita, 1990). Given these and other prior studies suggesting continuity (Berry et al., 1967; Berry and Berry, 1972), and the lack of archaeological evidence of major migration or population replacement during the Neolithic transition in the Nile valley, we may cautiously interpret the dental health changes over time as primarily due to ecological, subsistence, and demographic changes experienced throughout the Nile valley region."


-- AP Starling, JT Stock. (2007). Dental Indicators of Health and Stress in Early Egyptian and Nubian Agriculturalists: A Difficult Transition and Gradual Recovery. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 134:520–528

Note that the early ancient Egyptians cluster closer to African populations than to Europeans or Middle Easterners and Keita is cited. Keita also described the elongated Egyptian crania (along side the broad featured type) to be "Somali like", which would specify which African population to at for a reference point.

Some have even made the more ridiculous claim that the present day Egyptians came from Greeks or Romans.

The Greco-Roman period has been noted as the time in Pharonic Egyptian history when a lot of biological affinity towards Europeans began to occur in Egypt as a result of that occupation;

That study (Irish, 2006) provided evidence for predynastic/dynastic continuity, especially during the early dynastic in Upper Egypt. Temporal and geographic distributions of biological variation among skeletal samples in the present study also suggest that in situ development was associated with Egyptian state formation, albeit with some indications of migration and/or gene flow. As such, we could reject neither Hypothesis 1, the in situ model, nor Hypothesis 2, the development by-invading-population model. Still, it appears that the process of state formation involved a large indigenous component. Outside influence and admixture with extraregional groups primarily occurred in Lower Egypt—perhaps during the later dynastic, but especially in Ptolmaic and Roman times (also Irish, 2006). No large-scale population replacement in the form of a foreign dynastic ‘race’ (Petrie, 1939) was indicated. Our results are generally consistent with those of Zakrzewski (2007). Using craniometric data in predynastic and early dynastic Egyptian samples, she also concluded that state formation was largely an indigenous process with some migration into the region evident. The sources of such migrants have not been identified; inclusion of additional regional and extraregional skeletal samples from various periods would be required for this purpose.
"Further analysis of the population history of ancient Egyptians."
Schillaci MA, Irish JD, Wood CC.

The ancient Egyptian state was a process of indigenous development and the strongest continuity was seen in early Dynastic times amongst Upper Egyptians, who in which Irish cited several studies labeling the cranio-metric pattern "Negroid" alongside Nubians, Tigrean and more southern African populations:

"As a result of their facial prognathism, the Badarian sample has been described as forming a morphological cluster with Nubian, Tigrean, and other southern (or \Negroid") groups (Morant, 1935, 1937; Mukherjee et al., 1955; Nutter, 1958, Strouhal, 1971; Angel, 1972; Keita, 1990). (Sonia R. Zakrzewski. (2007). Population Continuity or Population Change: Formation of the Ancient Egyptian State. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 132:501-509)

Note how consistent said finding is.

Afrocentrists have also argued that the Egyptians must have been black because they supposedly referred to Egypt as Kemet which means "the black land," so therefore it must have been in reference to the people calling themselves black.

Please watch this documentary from the Late African historian Basil Davidson:

Your contempt towards people who you consider "Afrocentrics" seem to come from a profound lack of knowledge and preconcetpions of strawman argument put forth by particular kinds of people, and not the true facts of the matter.

There is zero possibility of a genocide having occurred in Egypt at any point in time. Genocides leave behind records...........

This entire statement is a prime example of what happens when you are trying to pigeon hole one's argument into a particular ideaology rather than taking the time out to hear the other side. As a result nothing in that passage pertains to me or my argument, as I am not arguing that a genocide has taken place.

2) "Kemet" refers to the area of black soil around the Nile.

While I have seen people debate this extensively, this has never been one of my talking points and is therefore irrelevant to my argument and doesn't really help your argument that they have always been "Caucasoid".

the name for Egypt was Aegeptus (spelling?). The term "Copt" is used to refer to the Christian minorities of Egypt who never converted to Islam following the Arab invasion.

Speaking of Copts here is an excert from Britannica about their own population history:

"In Libya, which is mostly desert and oasis, there is a visible Negroid element in the sedentary populations, and at the same is true of the Fellahin of Egypt, whether Copt or Muslim. Osteological studies have shown that the Negroid element was stronger in predynastic times than at present, reflecting an early movement northward along the banks of the Nile, which were then heavily forested." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. "Populations, Human")

You also are under the very false impression that the people of Cairo and other major northern cities are the only way that modern Egyptians look. Here are some other Egyptians particularly in the south, who have better retained their ancestoral biological affinity:

The south is also where the Egyptian civilization originated and where the vast majority of ancient Egypt's populations resided prior to the New Kingdom. The complete opposite is true of the Egypt today. Also one must consider the fact that at the turn of the last century Egypt was a nation of less than 5 million, but less than 100 years later is at the verge of having a population over 100 million. Migration from the Middle East has persisted to this very day. With that being said, it wouldn't be far fetched to say that every person within the modern Egypt (especially Lower Egyptians) is not of ancient Egyptian descent. The same way that every person within the boarders of Sudan is not of "Nubian" descent.

The term Copt was derived from an Arabic mispronunciation of Aegeptus, which Arabs could not pronounce. But Copt literally means EGYPTIAN.

Coptic Egyptians Christians are biologically the same as most Muslim Egyptians and not a genetic study will say otherwise. What people who use modern Copts as an example of the ancient Egyptians fail to realize is that Christianity came into ancient Egypt during the Late Period, and from what we already know about the Late Period they were already biologically differientiated from prior Egyptian populations:

Dr. Sonia Zakrzewski. Department of Archaeology, University of Southampton, UK.

Previous studies have compared biological relationships between Egyptians and other populations, mostly using the Howells global cranial data set. In the current study, by contrast, the biological relationships within a series of temporally-successive cranial samples are assessed.

The data consist of 55 cranio-facial variables from 418 adult Egyptian individuals, from six periods, ranging in date from c. 5000 to 1200 BC. These were compared with the 111 Late Period crania (c. 600-350 BC) from the Howells sample. Principal Component and Canonical Discriminant Function Analysis were undertaken, on both pooled and single sex samples.

The results suggest a level of local population continuity exists within the earlier Egyptian populations, but that this was in association with some change in population structure, reflecting small-scale immigration and admixture with new groups. Most dramatically, the results also indicate that the Egyptian series from Howells global data set are morphologically distinct from the Predynastic and Early Dynastic Nile Valley samples (especially in cranial vault shape and height), and thus show that this sample cannot be considered to be a typical Egyptian series. –Zakrewski (2004) “Intra-population and temporal variation in ancient Egyptian crania.”

Therefore the assertion that Coptic Egyptians are the splitting image of their core indigenous Egyptian ancestors is false, which is proven by biology. While continuity has been maintained (meaning no mass genocide or displacement took place) the original population affinities have been substantially dilluted.

3) As for the Ethiopians and the major groups of the Horn of Africa. The only reason they look different from regular black Africans is because of their close proximity to the Middle East.

:useless: Incorrect:

"The living peoples of the African continent are diverse in facial characteristics, stature, skin color, hair form, genetics, and other characteristics. No one set of characteristics is more African than another. Variability is also found in "sub-Saharan" Africa, to which the word "Africa" is sometimes erroneously restricted. There is a problem with definitions. Sometimes Africa is defined using cultural factors, like language, that exclude developments that clearly arose in Africa. For example, sometimes even the Horn of Africa (Somalia, Ethiopia, Eritrea) is excluded because of geography and language and the fact that some of its peoples have narrow noses and faces.

However, the Horn is at the same latitude as Nigeria, and its languages are African. The latitude of 15 degree passes through Timbuktu, surely in "sub-Saharan Africa," as well as Khartoum in Sudan; both are north of the Horn. Another false idea is that supra-Saharan and Saharan Africa were peopled after the emergence of "Europeans" or Near Easterners by populations coming from outside Africa. Hence, the ancient Egyptians in some writings have been de-Africanized. These ideas, which limit the definition of Africa and Africans, are rooted in racism and earlier, erroneous "scientific" approaches."(S. Keita, "The Diversity of Indigenous Africans," in Egypt in Africa, Theodore Clenko, Editor (1996), pp. 104-105.)

This notion that populations in the Horn of Africa descend from a mixture of "true Negroids" and "Caucasoids" is called the "Hamitic Hypothesis" which has been discredited over half a century now by scientist.

The Habasha people of Ethiopia speak a Semitic language which is more closely related to Arabic than Coptic. DNA from Y Chromosomes indicates Middle Eastern ancestry, while the X chromosomes are more consistent with the black African norm:

Actually the populations of the Horn who acquired Semitic did so without very much geneflow from the Middle East.

"These data, together with those reported elsewhere (Ritte et al. 1993a, 1993b; Hammer et al. 2000) suggest that the Ethiopian Jews acquired their religion without substantial genetic admixture from Middle Eastern peoples and that they can be considered an ethnic group with essentially a continental African genetic composition." (Cruciani, et. al Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197–1214. "A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes)

The other populations in the Horn have neglectable to completely absent traces of Middle Eastern geneflow. The other problem with the false idea that elongated African features originated as a result of some mass settlement of Eurasians is that the remains of individuals in Tanzania from over 100,000 years ago also exhibit the same facial features...Modern humans did not disperse from Africa until around 50,000 years ago! Therefore such traits origianted in Africa.

5) The royal mummies have caucasoid features

You are incorrect once again:

"The predominant craniometric pattern in the Abydos royal tombs is 'southern' (tropical African variant), and this is consistent with what would be expected based on the literature and other results (Keita, 1990). This pattern is seen in both group and unknown analyses... Archaeology and history seem to provide the most parsimonious explanation for the variation in the royal tombs at Abydos.. Tomb design suggests the presence of northerners in the south in late Nakada times (Hoffman, 1988) when the unification probably took place. Delta names are attached to some of the tombs at Abydos (Gardiner, 1961; Yurco, 1990, personal communication), thus perhaps supporting Petrie's (1939) and Gardiner's contention that north-south marriages were undertaken to legitimize the hegemony of the south. The courtiers of northern elites would have accompanied them.

Given all of the above, it is probably not possible to view the Abydos royal tomb sample as representative of the general southern Upper Egyptian population of the time. Southern elites and/or their descendants eventually came to be buried in the north (Hoffman, 1988). Hence early Second Dynasty kings and Djoser (Dynasty 111) (Hayes, 1953) and his descendants are not buried in Abydos. Petrie (1939) states that the Third Dynasty, buried in the north, was of Sudanese origin, but southern Egypt is equally likely. This perhaps explains Harris and Weeks' (1973) suggested findings of southern morphologies in some Old Kingdom Giza remains, also verified in portraiture (Drake, 1987). Further study would be required to ascertain trends in the general population of both regions. The strong Sudanese affinity noted in the unknown analyses may reflect the Nubian interactions with upper Egypt in predynastic times prior to Egyptian unification (Williams, 1980,1986)..." (S. Keita (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)

Unless of course Tropical African populations are no longer regarded as black Africans for purposes of this debate

and hair, but so do the many mummies of commoners and officials.

I've never understood why some people continue to suggest that because the corpse of Ramses II and a couple of other mummies have extremely out of place hair colors (bleach blond to auburn) that they were somehow a displaced group of Europeans. Now perhaps what is the most the baffling question is in regard to their stance, one minute they are that the ancient Egyptians have always been Asiatic in physical appearance as are most Egyptians today, but they don't acknowledge the absence of such traits even amongst those "Caucasoid" populations. Red Haired individuals only comprise less than 15% of Northwestern Europeans populations where it is most prominent! The idea that these mummies with out of place hair were the descendants of some small group of Northwestern European origin is beyond ridiculous imo and rides of the train of fantacy. Further more a recent study explains, what we "Afrocentrics" have been saying about this situation for decades which is that this is the result of the chemical embalming process done of these corpses:

Journal of Archaeological Science doi:10.1016/j.jas.2008.07.003

Indications of embalming in Roman Greece by physical, chemical and histological analysis

C. Papageorgopoulou et al.


"The current colour of the hair is brown with reddish highlights, a common observation on many mummies, and probably originated through post-mortem alteration (Aufderheide, 2003; Wilson et al., 2001). Sun-exposure, bacterial reaction, and embalming methods are some of the factors that may affect the original hair colour. As a result, hair that was originally black or brown exhibits reddish, orange or even blond colour due to post mortem alterations. All human hair, however, does not turn red over archaeological time-scales (Wilson, 2001). Based on the histological analysis of the unstained hair samples, the limited fungal influence, and the macroscopic view, it can be assumed that the original hair colour was brown. Similar cases of hair preservation have been reported in studies of both mummified and non-mummified human remains (Aufderheide, 2003; Brothwell and Dobney, 1986; Lubec et al., 1987; White, 1993; Wilson et al., 2002, 2007b)."

This is not a matter which any scientists who have studied the corpses will dispute.

Comments like this generated laughter in this seminar of Kemet at Manchester (UK), who have recently accepted and embrace the fact that ancient Egypt (or Kemet) was a black African civilization.

At the 9 minute mark

 

[Taharqa]

Passarino et al. (1998)Different Genetic Components in the Ethiopian Population, Identified by mtDNA and Y-Chromosome Polymorphisms. Am J Hum Genet; 62:420-434

Please do not rely on Racial Realities distortions for your argument!

 

[Taharqa]

I'll apologize for my accusation then. The "Y (xR1b)" in the row refers to number of total samples of Y-DNA (I assume that it does not add up to 100% because they were not always able to gather/process all DNA samples that they had taken.



As far as I understand the paper, there's no evidence of Haplogroup R in (sub-Saharan) Africa other than R1b-V88. All known samples of Haplogroup R* (that is, positive for M207 marker which refines Haplogroup R, but negative for the M173 and M479 markers which define Haplogroups R1 and R2, respectively). All known samples of R* are from southern Asia (Iran, Pakistan, India):

View attachment 5489

(from http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/full/5201726a.html )

also, related:

"In contrast, their sister branch R, defined by M207, ac- counts for more than one-third of Indian Y chromo-
somes and is the most common clade throughout north-
western Eurasia. Its daughter clades R1 and R2 are both
found in tribal and caste groups. Clade R1 splits into
R1a and R1b, which are similarly variable in Indians
(fig. 3) and western Asians but are less so in Estonians,
Czechs, and central Asians (table 5). R2 (previously mis-
identified as “P1” [YCC 2002]) has a more specific
spread, being confined to Indian, Iranian, and central
Asian populations (table 3)."

(from http://www.cell.com/AJHG/retrieve/pii/S0002929707605412 )

In a nutshell, there can be no doubt about the Eurasian origin of R1b. It's way too far up in the Y-DNA "tree" to have originated in Africa. This is also what Cruciani et al. write, and they also consider the idea that R1b is indigenous to sub-saharan Africa as unlikely:





My assumption is that this was a founder effect in the Chadic region.

The questions still remain WHEN did the said back migration occur and why is there a complete absence of any other non African haplogroup in these heavily R carrying Central African populations?

Keita makes these comments in regards to such issues:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial]"In hot pursuit of language in prehistory":

The issue of how much Paleolithic migration from the Near East there may have been is intriguing, and the mitochondrial DNA variation may need to be reassessed as to what can be considered to be only of "Eurasian origin" because if hunters and gatherers roamed between the Saharan and supra-Saharan regions and Eurasia it might be difficult to determine exactly "where" a mutation arose. [/FONT]

 

[Taranis]

The questions still remain WHEN did the said back migration occur and why is there a complete absence of any other non African haplogroup in these heavily R carrying Central African populations?

I've answered the latter

Regarding when this migration may have occured, Karafet et. al 2008 give the age for R1 (the parent mutation for both R1a and R1b) as approximately 18,500 years:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2336805/?tool=pmcentrez#__sec1

It is self-evident that both R1a and R1b, as well as their subclades (including R1b-V88) must be younger. Regarding when this migration may have occured, this is what Cruciani et al. suggest in their paper:

"The expansion time for the haplogroup R-V88 in Africa, under two different population models (see Materials and methods), was found to be 9.2–5.6 ky (95% CI=7.6–10.8 ky and 4.7–6.6 ky, respectively)."

Keita makes these comments in regards to such issues:

As I stated before, I think that an Eurasian origin of R1b-V88 is prettymuch unquestionable if all "parent" markers (R1b*, R1*, R*, P*) and all "sister" markers (R1b-M297, R2, Q) are found in Eurasia.

 

[Ramses II]

1.

First of all, the origins and migration of M-35 is just one of my lines of evidence confirming the more southerly African origins of ancient Egypt. This is supported not only by mainstream (and pretty common sense) genetic evidence, but even coinciding with lingustic evidence as Christphoer Ehret's recent study details:

You have no evidence, and your "common sense" has no standing. 1. The chart you provided places the supposed origin for Afro-Asiatic in East Africa, not Sub Sahara. Most negroids don't speak Afro-Asiatic, but Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Khoisan click languages which for the most part developed after Afro-Asiatic. In addition, *even if* Egyptians supposedly originated in the region of Nubia, it doesn't explain why Egyptians spoke Afro-Asiatc while Nubians spoke Nilo-Saharan - so that contention is refuted. The ancient Egyptians referred to Nubians as "gibberers" (Redford; 2006) among other things.

What languages are closelly related to Afro-Asiatic? It's certainly not Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan or Khoisan:

"Related to this Borean language family are Eurasiatic, Afroasiatic, Sino-Caucasian, Austric, and Amerind roots that form the basic languages of the Borean language family. The etymological roots of language families and the Borean super family are united as the representatives of the concept, in our case the concept of SPEECH." (FA Haase; 2011)

"It is clear that the Borean hypothesis involves a super-phylum some of whose sub-taxa are themselves super-phyla. The term phyletic chain is introduced as a better label, particularly because the Borean groups show a chain like distribution from southern Ethiopia through southwestern Eurasia to northeast Asia and down to the end of the New World. Borean has clear similarities to Swadesh's Vasco-Dene. Borean is predominantly associated with human populations of "Caucasoid" or "Northern Mongoloid" physical appearance, the major exceptions being southern India, southern China, southwestern Ethiopia, northern Nigeria, and the Chad Republic. Borean as a chain is closely associated with the appearance of the Upper Paleolithic in the Levant, Europe, and western Eurasia from 50,000 to 45,000 years ago." ("Afrasian and Its Closest Relatives" Harold Fleming)

2. In addition, the chart you provided shows Caucasoid introgression into East Africa, which is supported by substantual genetic studies.

3. Pay attention to the material you cite. Note the text you cited (below), which you so obviously had no understanding of what you were citing as it supports my position, not yours. I took the liberty of highlighting:

The genetic data appear to be consistent with the archaeological and linguistic data indicative of extensive population interactions between North African and Middle Eastern populations. A recent NRY study explores the distribution of haplogroups in a sample of African, Middle Eastern, and European males (38). Whereas a subclade of haplogroup E (M35) appears to have arisen in eastern Africa over 20 kya and subsequently spread to the Middle East and Europe, haplogroup J (M267) appears to have arisen in the Middle East over 20 kya and subsequently spread into northern Africa (38). A recent study of genomewide autosomal microsatellite markers reports that Middle Eastern and African samples share the highest number of alleles that are also absent in other non-African samples, consistent with bidirectional gene flow (1). In addition, a recent study of domestic goat mtDNA and NRY variation reports similar findings as well as evidence of trade along the Strait of Gibraltar (39). The combined archaeological, linguistic, and genetic data, therefore, suggest bidirectional migration of peoples between northern Africa and the Levant for at least the past ~14 ky.[/b]Bayesian phylogenetic analysis of Semitic languages identifies an Early Bronze Age origin of Semitic in the Near East

4. Your own quote debases the foundation of your "argument", it is, however, in complete agreement and compatable with what I've been sayng, E(M35) is a "non-African" haplotype (this is expounded upon later); and "non-Africans" in Africa have been interacting with each other for "at least the past ~14 ky." in addition, your quote is improperly attributed to Ehret, instead of Scheinfeldt et al; 2010. (Working toward a synthesis of archaeological, linguistic, and genetic data for inferring African population history) It's only the map, which you posted, that's based on Ehret's paper which is outdated (2009) according to your own source, Scheinfeldt 2010.

5. The statement "Whereas a subclade of haplogroup E (M35) appears to have arisen in eastern Africa" is irrelevant, since it's non-African - as indicated by your source (and others) these were mentioned in my previous post: Abu-Amero; 2009 and "Y-DNA Haplogroup E and its Subclades - 2012" and you choose to ignore it in favor of outdated dismissed information.

For arguments sake, even *IF* E haplogroup (or Afro-Asiatic for that matter) originated in *East* Africa, it doesn't negate the fact that it's designated non-African (this fact discussed further down). Of note, If E was a negroid haplogroup, which btw NO geneticist makes such a claim, then the Europeans that possess it would look, phenotypically like mulattos or quadroons. They don't. For instance, Albanians have more E3b1 than Egyptians, (Cruciani; 2004) if it was a negroid clade, then they would be quadroons. Their morphology doesn't indicate such.

6. Interestingly, your source Scheinfeldt, which again, you deliberately excluded from the equation states:

"Although the origins of the Afroasiatic language family remain contentious, linguistic data generally support a model in which the Afroasiatic language family arose in Northern Africa >10 kya (36). Moreover, analyses of the Cushitic branch of the Afroasiatic language family suggest that proto-Cushitic arose and diversified at least 7 kya, and this likely took place in Ethiopia (37). Intriguingly, the origin and diversification of proto-Afroasiatic is consistent with the spread of intensive plant collection in the archaeological record, and some interpret this pattern to represent a model in which proto-Afroasiatic speakers developed the novel subsistence technology resulting in the expansion and spread of their Afroasiatic descendants in the region (37)."

Therefore your claims of a "southerly origin" for Egyptian Afro-Asiatic are refuted by none other than your own source Scheinfeldt 2010 among numerous others. And that's the least of your problems, your source, which you deliberately failed to acknowledge points to a North African origin for Afro-Asiatic, not East Africa, not Central, West or South Africa but North, a region of Caucasoid habitation - all connected to the Borean language family which resides outside Africa. Further, proto-Cushitic was birthed much later, about 3,000 years later than Afro-Asiatic (hint hint) as stated by your source. You've deliberately taken the information out of context by citing bits and pieces. You've been caught in the act of manipulation, again.

"The expansion of Caucasians in Africa has been correlated with the spread and diversification of Afroasiatic languages... This stresses the importance of its detailed study in order to trace one of the earliest Caucasian arrivals to Africa. Although in moderate frequencies, the geographic range of this clade extends from the Near East to the Canary Islands, along the Atlantic shores of Northwest Africa and from the Sahel belt, including Ethiopia, to the southern Mediterranean rim." (Maca-Meyer et al; 2003)

"There is no significant archaeological evidence for a population movement from Africa into the Levant, whether Mesolithic or Neolithic, at the time in question My working assumption, therefore, is that early Afroasiatic languages spread from the Levant into Africa between 7000 and12,000 years ago, probably in more than one movement." (Bellwood; 2004)

"the distribution of M1b and most of the U6 clades only in Mediterranean regions indicates that both M1 and U6 differentiated into their major subclades while they were in the Mediterranean area, and only later some subsets of M1a (including its derivatives M1a1 and M1a2), U6a2, and U6d diffused to East Africa, possibly along the Nile Valley. It cannot be excluded that a further late dispersal of M1 and U6 within North and East Africa might have been associated with the diffusion, after the Last Glacial Maximum, of the emerging Afro-Asiatic language family. Indeed, M1 and U6 in Africa are mostly restricted to Afro-Asiatic–speaking areas." Olivieri, et al. 2006

"Haplogroups F, I, J, K, and R are more frequent among Afro-Asiatic speaking groups including Arabs, Beja, Copts, and Hausa, and Niger-Congo speakers from the Fulani ethnic group. The bulk of genetic diversity appears to be a consequence of recent migrations and demographic events mainly from Asia and Europe evident in a higher migration rate for speakers of Afro-Asiatic ...The data provide insights not only into the history of the Nile Valley, but also in part to the history of Africa and the area of the Sahel." (Cavalli-Sforza; 2008)

I don't see geneticists discussing or employing the term negroid or black in relation to "Afro-Asiatic" origins and neither do you; so all speculations of this population belonging to some hypothetical black negroid stock is wishful thinking. Below, Bromhard shows extremely close connections between PIE and PAA roots. Noticeably, Sub Saharan languages don't come into play. Observe:

"Bomhard found 318 roots of both proto-languages that had almost exact correspondence in both sound and meaning. This is some of the evidence that leads him to conclude that Indo-European and Afroasiatic bear a stronger affinity both in their phonological systems and in their vocabularies, than could possibly have been produced by accident–so strong, indeed, that no linguist could examine them without believing them to have sprung from a common source. ...

The presence of Afroasiatic speakers in North Africa is due to successive waves of expansion from the Near East, each representing a contemporary form of post-Afroasiatic. In the earliest phase, the language may have been close to contemporary Indo-European, having the same SOV syntactic order inherited from Nostratic, and presumably much the same morphology, but already exhibiting the characteristic Afroasiatic feminine in t, which seems to be peculiar to this family. This wave, with its early Nostratic language, must have represented the first flush of Mesolithic influence in Africa, preceding the advent of the agricultural Neolithic in that region. It extended as far as the Ethiopian highlands and the Chad Basin to the Northwest of them, but there bogged down after converting the local African peoples to Nostratic speech as represented by the Cushitic, Omotic, and Chadic speakers of today… It is probable that the Cushitic and Omotic languages still retain traces of early Nostratic morphology… These new colonizers of Africa were of caucasian surface-phenotype. Then a second wave of Afro-Asiatic expansion explodedfrom the Palestine-Syriac center (the Afro-Asiatic "homeland"), probably for reasons associated with the genesis of agriculture, which would locate this expansion at about 10,000 BP. The new expansion into North Africa again virtually covered up the entire area of the first Afro-Asiatics' north African settlement." (Chin; 2007)

"The first axis mainly separates Afro-Asiatic populations, which are characterized by high frequencies of haplogroup E1b1b (E3b according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002) and its derivates, K, T (K2 according to The Y Chromosome Consortium 2002), and F(xG,I,K) from the rest of populations...The second axis positions Khoisan, Pygmy, and Nilo-Saharan samples on one edge due to their high frequency of haplogroups B2b and A." (Berniell-Lee; 2009)

On the flip side:

"all Nilo-Saharan–speaking populations from Kenya, Tanzania, southern Sudan, and Chad clustered with west central Afroasiatic Chadic–speaking populations in the global analysis at K =11 (Fig. 3), which is consistent with linguistic and archeological data suggesting bidirectional migration of Nilo-Saharans from source populations in Sudan within the past ~10,500 to 3000 years (4, 29). The proposed migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers ~7000 years ago from the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin may have resulted in a Nilo-Saharan to Afroasiatic language shift among Chadic speakers (37). However, our data suggest that this shift was not accompanied by large amounts of Afroasiatic gene flow" - again, your source Tishkoff; 2009

And:

"From K = 5-13, all Nilo-Saharan speaking populations from Kenya, Tanzania, southern Sudan, and Chad cluster with west-central Afroasiatic Chadic speaking populations (Fig. S15). These results are consistent with linguistic and archeological data, suggesting a possible common ancestry of Nilo-Saharan speaking populations from an eastern Sudanese homeland within the past ~10,500 years, with subsequent bi-directional migration westward to Lake Chad and southward into modernday southern Sudan, and more recent migration eastward into Kenya and Tanzania ~3,000 ya (giving rise to Southern Nilotic speakers) and westward into Chad ~2,500 ya (giving rise to Central Sudanic speakers) (S62, S65, S67, S74). A proposed migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers ~7,000 ya from the central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin may have caused many western Nilo-Saharans to shift to Chadic languages (S99). Our data suggest that this shift was not accompanied by large amounts of Afroasiatic gene flow. Analyses of mtDNA provide evidence for divergence ~8,000 ya of a distinct mtDNA lineage present at high frequency in the Chadic populations and suggest an East African origin for most mtDNA lineages in these populations (S100). (Tishkoff,; 2009)

And:

"Bantu languages ...are thought to have originated in Nigeria or Cameroon (63) ~5,000 years ago (64, 65)." (Scheinfeld; 2010)

In addition to:

"On the basis of genetic and archaeological data, black Africans seem to have radiated from a relatively small West African and possibly pygmy population within the last 20,000 years (Coon, 1962, pp. 651-656; Spurdle et al., 1994; Watson et al., 1996). The time and place of origin can be further narrowed down with linguistic data. Speakers of proto-Niger Congo broke up c. 10,000 BP and the oldest derived group appear to be proto-Mande speakers, whose descendants inhabit the Niger's headwaters near the Mali-Guinea border (Blench, 1984, pp. 128-129; Ehret, 1984; Murdock, 1959, pp. 44, 64-68)[...]" Thus, black Africans were still absent from most of sub-Saharan Africa even within historic times. When the Egyptians began to build their pyramids, the peoples living to the south were scarcely darker in color. They were simply seen as uncivilized Egyptians. Thus, the civilized world initially encountered a much narrower range of human phenotypes than it would later on. This context shaped the intellectual worldview in its early stages, including theorizing on universal brotherhood. To a degree not easy to assess, we are heirs to notions of human sameness that were first conceived ‘before Africa became black’." (Frost; 2008)

There you have it. Wishful thinking down the toilet. Nilo-Saharan's do not cluster with Afro-Asiatic populations genetic-wise, but with west-central Chadic populations; the further one moves south, the more recent the language.

 

[Ramses II]

1.b ( ----*There is apparently a glitch in the system as it continues to insist on inserting quote brackets inside my quotes - after I've corrected it - thereby chopping up my quotes.)

The single biggest problem with the Henn study, is that the author only investigated one way gene flow from the Levant into Northern Africa and never investigated the opposite, which Henn actually admitted in an email.

You mean this email from Egypsearch's own crack-pot Bass?

Dear Charles T

hanks for your message and interest in our work. As you pointed, the idea of a bidirectional gene-flow was not tested in our work since there were not enough Near Eastern samples to test this hypothesis. My feeling is that the migrations might have been bi-directional, but unfortunately, we are not able to test it with the data available.Best wishes,David Comas

It does nothing to support your claims, they're strictly discussing North/North East Africans, not Sub Saharan/Nilo-Saharan or the like, since those aren't representative of Egyptians. Henn's paper (among numerous others) is more than enough evidence showing introgression of Eurasian geneflow into Africa, again, your loss.

The evidence of an out of Africa migration has been detailed by the single largest genetic study of Africans to this date Tishkoff 2009.: Consistent with bi-directional gene flow(14), African and Middle Eastern populations shared the greatest number of alleles absent from all other populations(fig. S6B).

^That's discussing the OOA theory - long before Egyptian civilization came to fruitation, the OOA theory has nothing to do with hypothetical wandering negroids. You don't like it, but Henn et al stands, regardless if they analyzed OOA or back migrations, it does not negate the facts. Because:

1. Your source Tishkoff states:

The Fulani and Cushitic (an eastern Afroasiatic subfamily) AACs, which likely reflect Saharan African and East African ancestry, respectively, are closest to the non-African AACs, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans into Saharan and Eastern Africa.

2. When two clusters are assumed in the STRUCTURE analysis (K = 2), individuals can primarily be assigned to African (orange) or non-African (blue) clusters, consistent with the PCA (Fig. 3). Individuals from Saharan and Eastern Africa show heterogeneous ancestry, reflecting descent from populations ancestral to non-Africans and/or gene flow from non-Africans into Africa - as per your source Tishkoff.

3. "North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes; however, the time and the extent of genetic divergence between populations north and south of the Sahara remain poorly understood. Here, we interrogate the multilayered history of North Africa by characterizing the effect of hypothesized migrations from the Near East, Europe, and sub-Saharan Africa on current genetic diversity. We present dense, genome-wide SNP genotyping array data (730,000 sites) from seven North African populations, spanning from Egypt to Morocco, and one Spanish population. We identify a gradient of likely autochthonous Maghrebi ancestry that increases from east to west across northern Africa; this ancestry is likely derived from “back-to-Africa” gene flow more than 12,000 years ago (ya), prior to the Holocene. The indigenous North African ancestry is more frequent in populations with historical Berber ethnicity. In most North African populations we also see substantial shared ancestry with the Near East, and to a lesser extent sub-Saharan Africa and Europe. To estimate the time of migration from sub-Saharan populations into North Africa, we implement a maximum likelihood dating method based on the distribution of migrant tracts. In order to first identify migrant tracts, we assign local ancestry to haplotypes using a novel, principal component-based analysis of three ancestral populations. We estimate that a migration of western African origin into Morocco began about 40 generations ago (approximately 1,200 ya); a migration of individuals with Nilotic ancestry into Egypt occurred about 25 generations ago (approximately 750 ya). Our genomic data reveal an extraordinarily complex history of migrations, involving at least five ancestral populations, into North Africa." (Henn et al; 2012)

In another paper, your source Tishkoff states:

4. "The much greater variaiton in both number and frequency of CD4 STRP-Alu haplotypes in sub-Saharan Africans is consistent with the out of Africa hypothesis. The clinal pattern of decreasing heterozygosities west to east outside of Africa is consistent with a migration event of modern humans out of Northeast Africa into the Middle East and Europe, and east into Asia, the Pacific Islands, and the New World. In addition, all non-African populations share a similar pattern of haplotype variation and linkage disequilibrium, which implies that they all derive from a single ancestral gene pool. This pattern is similar to that seen in Northeast African populations but is distinct from that in all sub-Saharan African populations. Patterns of genetic variation distinguishing between African and non-African populations have been documented in data of both mtDNA (6,31) and nuclear DNA (27, 32, 33)."

5. "Indigenous North Africans are genetically quite distinct from sub-Saharan Africans (1), and this difference is reflected in their lighter skin and European/Middle Eastern physical features. We have previously suggested, on the basis of the distribution of mtDNA type M1, that North Africans are largely descended from a back-migration into Africa within the last 2000 to 15,000 years, resettling the temporarily lush Sahara and spreading the Afro-Asiatic language family." (Forster; 2007)

Make no mistake that there now a biological distinction between some North African populations and the other populations further south, but this study does not negate the fact that the population origins Northern Africa lie rooted firmly within Sub Saharan Africa as detailed by Frigi et al. 2010:"Our objective is to highlight the age of sub-Saharan gene flows in North Africa and particularly in Tunisia. Therefore we analyzed in a broad phylogeographic context sub-Saharan mtDNA haplogroups of Tunisian Berber populations considered representative of ancient settlement. More than 2,000 sequences were collected from the literature, and networks were constructed. The results show that

the most ancient haplogroup is L3*, which would have been introduced to North Africa from eastern sub-Saharan populations around 20,000 years ago. Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 years BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa. The present work suggests that sub-Saharan contributions to North Africa have experienced several complex population processes after the occupation of the region by anatomically modern humans. Our results reveal that Berber speakers have a foundational biogeographic root in Africa and that deep African lineages have continued to evolve in supra-Saharan Africa."-- Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations Frigi et al. Human Biology (August 2010 (82:4)

Strike out! Notice the text from your source I highlighted (above). There's ALWAYS been a biological distinction between North & SSA. The "Sub Saharans" they're discussing in Frigi's article stem from the ancient East African Eurasian Eve L3 haplogroup, an OOA haplogroup unlike the more recent L2 and L3b from *west Sub Sahara" as your source Frigi states, of which Harich 2010 and Henn 2011 the recent introgression of L2a and L3b are demonstrated to be the result of the Trans-Saharan slave trade, hence the term "less ancient" applied to these haplotypes. East Africas are more related to Eurasians than Subs and any negroid population that possess L3 today, was at the receiving end of non-African, read: Eurasian genetics, that completely lacked the "southern" hpal 3592 marker:

A HpaI site at np 3592 (3594T/C) separates most Africans from all non-African populations" Kivisild 2000

"L3 (characterised by the loss of the HpaI site at np 3592) is ubiquitous. ..." (Bandelt; 2001)
"Macrohaplogroup L3, the only without the np 3592 HpaI site gain, gives rise to haplogroups M and N which encompass all mtDNAs that migrated out of Africa and spread all over the world." (Viera-Vera)

"L3 is more related to Eurasian haplogroups than to the most divergent African clusters L1 and L2." (Maca-Meyer, et al; 2001)

"This frequency profile suggests an origin for L3 in East Africa (Watson et al. 1997). This is supported by the evidence that the out-of-Africa migration, which took place from a source in East Africa 60,000–80,000 years ago, gave rise only to L3 lineages outside Africa." (The Making of the African mtDNA Landscape; 2002)

"HpaI morph-3 is the most common African HpaI restriction pattern. By contrast, HpaI morph-2 delineates all L3 African mtDNAs and is found in all European and Asian mtDNAs. HpaI morph-3 differs from morph-2 by having the HpaI site gain at np 3592. Thus HpaI np-3592 morph 3 defines macrohaplogroup L*, and distinguishes L* from L3 and the remaining global mtDNAs. Accordingly, all African LR-RFLP types that start with a 3 (e.g., 3-1-1-1-1-2 or type 7-2) can be considered L*(L1 or L2) mtDNAs, while those which start with a 2 (e.g., 2-1-1-1-1-2 or Type 1-2) can be considered L3 mtDNAs (Chen et al, 2000)

"This marker [HpaI 3592] was subsequently found at very high frequencies in mtDNAs of other sub-Saharan African populations (Scozzari et al. 1988, 1994; Soodyall and Jenkins 1992, 1993; Chen et al. 1995) but was not observed in populations of non-African origin (Cann et al. 1987; Soodyall 1993).

"the HpaI site at 3592 has a single origin in sub-Saharan Africa (Chen et al. 1995), which means that, according to our scheme, all mtDNA types with this site should be classified as southern. To assess the extent to which the Nile River Valley has been a corridor for human migrations between Egypt and sub-Saharan Africa, we analyzed mtDNA variation in 224 individuals from various locations along the river. Sequences of the first hypervariable segment (HV1) of the mtDNA control region and a polymorphic HpaI site at position 3592 allowed us to designate each mtDNA as being of “northern” or “southern” affiliation. Proportions of northern and southern mtDNA differed significantly between Egypt, Nubia, and the southern Sudan. Indeed, a recent study did report success in obtaining DNA from the remains of 15 of 29 ancient Nubians that are »2,000 years old (Fox 1997).

"These individuals were screened for the HpaI site at position 3592; the frequency of this site in the ancient Nubians (26.7%) is not significantly different from that in contemporary Nubians in the present study (32.5%). (mtDNA Analysis of Nile River Valley Populations: A Genetic Corridor or a Barrier to Migration?)

“The Hpal (np 3592) mitochondrial DNA marker is a selectively neutral mutation that is very common in sub-Saharan Africa and is almost absent in North African and European populations. It has been screened in a Meroitic sample from ancient Nubia through PCR amplification and posterior enzyme digestion, to evaluate the sub-Saharan genetic influences in this population. From 29 individuals analysed, only 15 yield positive amplifications, four of them (26.7%) displaying the sub-Saharan African marker. Hpa 1 (np3,592) marker is present in the sub-Saharan populations at a frequency of 68.7 on average. Thus, the frequency of genes from this area in the Merotic Nubian population can be estimated at around 39% (with a confidence interval from 22% to 55%). The frequency obtained fits in a south-north decreasing gradient of Hpa I (np3,592) along the African continent. Results suggest that morphological changes observed historically in the Nubian populations are more likely to be due to the existence of south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley than to in-situ evolution.” (“mtDNA analysis in ancient Nubians supports the existence of gene flow between sub-Sahara and North Africa in the Nile Valley” Fox CL Universitat de Barcelona, Spain)

“Previous genetic studies of Egyptian, Nubian, and Sudanese populations allowed for distinguishing between two mtDNA types: the so called “southern” (Sub-Saharan) and “northern” (Eurasian) (for details see: Chen et al. 1995; Krings et al. 1999). To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene fow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.” (Molak; 2008)

"As we look more carefully at the arrangement of branches on the mitochondrial tree, we find that there is a similar pattern - all of the non-African mitochondrial branches descend from a particular branch of the tree trunk, implying that our M168 Adam was pared with an Eve. Thankfully, this Eurasian Eve lived around 50-60,000 years ago, suggesting that she and Eurasian Adam could have met. She is called by the rather mundane name L3 and her daughters accompanied the sons of M168 on their journey to populate the world. Based on the distribution of the descendants of M168 and L3 in Africa today, it is likekly that they both lived in north-east Africa, in the region of present-day Ethiopia and Sudan." (Spencer Wells; 2002)

"Haplogroup L3 (Watson et al. 1997) can be singled out from the spectrum of African mtDNA haplogroups as the sole carrier of branches covering mtDNA variation into the rest of the world in prehistoric times. Haplogroups M and N, which are found in all non-Africans, represent just two of the eight known daughter clades of L3, the other six of which are African specific. Haplogroups L3bd and L3ei are common throughout West Africa and among Bantu spearkers of Southeast Africa, but are rare or absent in Ethiopia or Egypt (Graven et al. 1995; Watson et al. 1997, Rando et al. 1998, Pereira et al. 2001b, Silas et al 2002; Rosa et al. 2004, Stevanovich et al. 2004, Kivislid et al. 2004). Hans-Jürgen Bandelt, Vincent Macaulay, Dr. Martin Richards - 2006

Haplogroup E, descendent of M168, belongs to Eurasian Adam classification:

"And the first piece of evidence comes from one man in particular, who had a rather important, random mutation on his Y-chrosome between 31,000 and 79,000 years ago. He has been named, rather prosaically, M168. More evocatively, he could be seen as the

Eurasian Adam - the great...great-grandfather of every non-African man alive today." Spencer Wells; 2002

"the major sub-sets of Y lineages that arose from the M168 lineage do not trace to an African origin. Likewise the M, N andR haplogroups of mtDNA have no indication of an African origin. In the light of recent findings by Olivieri et al. (2006) the scenario of a back migration into Africa is supported by two features of mtDNA:M1 (with an estimated coalescence time of 38.6+/-7.1 ky) and U6 (with an estimated coalescence time of 45.1+/-6.9 ky), which are predominantly north African clades arose in southwestern Asia and differentiated into their major sub-clades while they were in the Mediterranean area and only later some sub-sets of M1a (with an estimated coalescence time of 28.8+/-4.9 ky), U6a2 (with an estimated coalescence time of 24.0+/-7.3 ky) and U6d (with an estimated coalescence time of 20.6+/-7.3 ky) diffused to East and North Africa through the Levant. Thus modern humans used a southern coastal route for their 'Out of Africa' exit, and the Levantine route from Asia to Africa for 'back migration'." (Chandrasekar; 2007)

“…the greatest dissimilarity, is between Subsaharan Africans and the rest of the world. The Europeans, North Africans, and South Asians are then separated from the remaining groups. (Hanihara et al; 2003)

“Genetic studies haveemphasized the contrast between North African and sub-Saharan populations.” (Pinto et al.; 1998)

"African chromosomes descend from at least two lineages that have been evolving separately for a period of time. One of them underwent range expansion colonizing different continents, including Africa, where it mixedwith another, local lineage represented today by a large fraction of African-specific haplotypes." (Labuda et al. 2000)

And a paper from 2010 does not usurp or refute a paper from 2012. What you fail to grasp is that Paleolithic Horners/South Africans are not the same population as todays Horners/South Africans.M168 Eurasian Adam and L3 weren't negroids. Today's Horner's are a mix of Caucasoids and Sub Saharans.

"Notably, 62% of the Ethiopians fall in the first cluster, which encompasses the majority of the Jews, Norwegians and Armenians, indicating that placement of these individuals in a ‘Black’ cluster would be an inaccurate reflection of the genetic structure. Only 24% of the Ethiopians are placed in the cluster with the Bantu and most of the Afro-Caribbeans....” (J.F. Wilson et al. Nature Genetics 29:265-269, 2001)

Now while the segment of the study above is pertaining to the vast North African region, Frigi also makes a specific statement in regards to the peopling of the Nile Valley: Molecular studies on the Y chromosome in North Africa are interpreted as indicating that the southern part of Africa, namely, the Horn/East Africa, was a major source of population in the Nile Valley and northwest Africa after the Last Glacial Maximum, with some migration into the Near East and southern Europe (Bosch et al. 2001; Underhill et al. 2001).

Which, is in support of all the above genetic information of their Caucasoid nature since there is no negroid presence in NE Africa or SE Europe. In fact, there is no racial continuity between recent negroid East African skulls or prehistoric remains, as the following passages illustrate:

"Before the Bantu expansion about 3,000 years ago,

true Black Africans were absent from the continent's central, eastern, and southern regions (Cavalli-Sforza 1986:361-362; Oliver 1966). They were also absent from the middle Nile until about 4,000 years ago, at which time they begin to appear in paintings from Pharaonic Egypt and in skeletal remains from Nubia." (Frost; 1999)

"The DISPOP results here are not indicative of anything, except a general non-African nature for all these skulls...Remembering that the Teita series (Bantu speakers of southeastern Kenya), and the recent East African skulls in table 4 above, do clearly exhibit African affiliations, it is fair to say, contra Rightmire, that there seems to be no clear continuity here in late prehistory. On the broad scale, looking at an "Out-of-Africa" scenario, one would expect that, in some region between southern and northeastern Africa, some differentiation would have been taking place within a Homo sapiens stock, evolving into something beginning to approximate later Sub-Saharan peoples on the one hand, and evolving in another direction on the other hand. East Africa would be a likely locale for appearance of the latter. So anyone is welcome to argue that this is what Elmenteita et al. are manifesting. The ensuing picture for East Africa, that is to say, would later have beeen changed through replacement by the expansion of Bantu or other "Negroid" tribes." (Howells; 1995)

The conclusions that you are trying to reach from the Henn study, are simply not supported by linguistic, archaeological, skeletal or what most genetic studies have concluded about the peopling of the Nile Valley.

The conclusions don't say what you want it to. Negroids did not exist in prehistoric East Africa. It is *modern* Ethiopians that have obtained a lot of A and B while North Africans have practically none - meaning those haplogroups were intrusive into East Africa *after* E3b migrated north. Modern Ethiopians do not represent the original E3b carriers. It explains why North/NE Africans always cluster with Europeans/Eurasians and not Sub-Saharan negroids.

Henn is fully supported by linguistic, archaeological, skeletal and genetic data, galore; you however, have shown a lacking in how to properly read, digest or cite information accurately and so, instead, maliciously edit out pertinent data that you refuse to accept or acknowledge based on your preconceived racial prejudices. "North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes." Henn et al; 2012 - and is backed by none-other by who? - Your source Tishkoff :

"Northeast African populations differentiated from other sub-Saharan African populations early in African history. A small subset of this population migrated out of Africa in the past 100,000 years and rapidly expanded throughout a broad geographical region." (Tishkoff et al; 2002)

"The interpolation analyses and complete sequencing of present mtDNA sub-Saharan lineages observed in North Africa support the genetic impact of recent trans-Saharan migrations, namely the slave trade initiated by the Arab conquest of North Africa in the seventh century. Saharan people did not leave traces in the North African maternal gene pool for the time of its settlement, some 40,000 years ago." (Harich et al, 2010)

 

[Ramses II]

1.c

The point of me posting Keita's conclusions was to show what the general affinity (in terms of phenotype) was with the ancient Egyptians. The affinities were with ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans and modern Horn Africans all of which are more southerly tropically adapted Northeast African populations whom are most commonly recognized by society as "black". In summary of that specific quote the ancient Egyptians displayed a phenotype most similar to that of black African populations to the south.

Wrong again. The 1996 Keita quote does not agree with wishful thinking. It speaks nothing of limb proportions in that quote nor does it mention a word about skin color and no mention of relatedness or origins amongst black (a term you deliberately inject) Sub Saharan negroids. Nor is your quote a direct one, as you present only three sentences that supposedly span a length of 13 pages, clearly indicating how out of context and untrustworthy it is. Further, if they were "black African" with "black African phenotypes" they would have exhibited this trait in their art. They absolutely refused to do so. And those "Southern Egyptians" may actually have been Nubians entering the existing upper Egyptian population in reality - as per Keita's assumption:

Lower Nubia seems to have become largely “depopulated,” based on archeological evidence, but this more likely means that Nubians were partially bioculturally assimilated into southern Egypt...Lower Nubia had a much smaller population than Egypt, which is important to consider in writing of the historical biology of the population" (Keita; 2005)

Meanwhile, other accounts have Nubian A-Group being wiped out by Egyptians and as Zakrzewski states there were NO Nubians in Egypt until the OK, thereby presenting absolutely no contribution to Egyptian early state formation. It's misleading of Keita to 1. claim incoming Nubians as if they're indigenous to Egypt or creators of Egyptian civilization while 2. using these same Nubians and casting them as Egyptians in an attempt to artificially connect them to the rest of Africa.

"The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World."(Brace; 1993) (also see Brace 2005, 2006 below)

Apparently Keita, who is not a geneticist, is out of lock and step with the majority of geneticists.

You are undermining the essential fact that these indigneous Nile Valley populations were of a cominbation of Nilotic and Afrasian African communities as archaeology and their own skeletal morphologies cosistently reflect this. In other words the distinction between Upper Egyptians and Nubians was for the most part nonexistant. That being said irregardless to the bi-directional geneflow around the Upper Nile region, Kerma is the oldest of the two civilizations.

Wrong. Nilotic populations have been proven not to cluster with Afro-Asiatic populations but with west Central African populations as is supported by archaeology and bi-directional gene flow to and from those areas. Egyptians demonstrate no such origins among those populations, and you've failed in demonstrating any dna linkage. As for revisiting your original comment: “The fact that the Nubia predates Egypt negates your claim that the affinity towards more southerly northeast African populations is due to a back migration from Egypt.” I asked, specifically which "more southerly northeast African populations" and you present me with Kerma, a civilization that resided within the borders of Egypt, that in all actuality was a contemporary Egyptian population, essentially "biologically the same" as your source Keita '93 stated, and differentiated from Nubians per Godde/Collette. In other words, you have no genuine negroid populations that you can direct us to - which lay thousands of miles to the equatorial south west. And Egyptians still continue to group with Caucasians. Go figure:

"The dendrogram produced by Ward's clustering procedure for the global data set is shown in Figure 3 and provides a relatively similar representation of the MMD^sub st^ distance matrix than that provide by the MDS analysis. The populations clearly fall into two groups. The first main group can be broken down into two subgroups: (1) all the recent sub-Saharan populations and (2) mainly Central, East, and Northeast Eurasians. West Eurasians form the second main group, which is also subdivided into two subgroups. One of these subgroups includes all the eastern Mediterranean populations (three ancient Egyptian/Sudanese populations from Naqada, Gizeh, and Kerma as well as the Cypriot/Turkish, Greek, and Sagalassian populations) and the Scandinavian sample; the second subgroup includes the other West Eurasian populations."

"The results of the analysis suggest that ancient Egyptian crania had elements in common with those from Southwest Asia and Neolithic Europe, as well as North and Northeast Africa. However, the Egyptian skulls showed very little similarity to African crania from the more distant south and west. ... The predynastic sample from Upper Egypt lies very close to the West Eurasian group but also shows tendencies toward some neighboring African groups;this should not be surprising given Egypt's geographical position near the crossroads of Africa, Asia, and Europe. The northern Egyptians deviate even more strongly from the tropical African pattern, and indeed their closest relatives appear to be western Eurasians and coastal North Africans. Notice that the pooled group of Sub-Saharan Africans from the southern, central, and western regions of the continent does not resemble Egyptians at all: this group is plotted very distant from both ancient Egyptian samples. Similar conclusions are reached by Howells and Froment.” (Brace; 1993)

"PCA indicated that the Egyptian, Coptic, Somali, and to some extent the Nubian groups form genetically distinct populations. The Nuba, Zagawa, Nilotic and Gemar groups clustered with the Karamoja group from Uganda, as was also indicated by the clustering using Structure (Figure 5)."(Babiker; 2011)

So much for your claims of Egyptians having a common origin, being of a "combination" or sharing relatedness with Nilotics.

"We analysed mtDNA variation in ~250 persons from Libya, Somalia, and Congo/Zambia, as representatives of the three regions of interest. Our initial results indicate a sharp cline in M1 frequencies that generally does not extend into sub-Saharan Africa. While our North and especially East African samples contained frequencies of M1 over 20%, our sub-Saharan samples consisted almost entirely of the L1 or L2 haplogroups only. In addition, there existed a significant amount of homogeneity within the M1 haplogroup. This sharp cline indicates a history of little admixture between these regions. This could imply a more recent ancestry for M1 in Africa, as older lineages are more diverse and widespread by nature, and may be an indication of a back-migration into Africa from the Middle East."(Holden; 2005)

And we've already discussed your source Godde 2009: "Kerma was originally inhabited by Egyptians" further blowing your theory to pieces.

"I haven't fully developed my opinion in relation to Sub-Saharan Africans and Nubians. There is little to nothing in the archaeological record or linguistic data that suggests contact between the two populations."Godde email to Charlie Bass 2011 > And NO explanation from you.

"The timing of a population replacement in ancient Nubia that has been identified by other scholars should now be sought either before the A-Group period or after the C-Group." (Lovell; 2005)

Even papers as old as 1969 support the same conclusion:

"A short survey of the Nubian history is given. The connection between C-group, New Kingdom and Kerma culture is discussed. The present investigations are based on multivariate analysis using Mahalanobis D2-distance. It is concluded that the C-group people and New Kingdom people are not identical. The Kerma group is found much closer connected with the New Kingdom people than the C-group."(O. V. Nielsen)

Seriously here is a great article by Ehret which will allow you to brush up on the true peopling of the Nile Valley and Valley:

No, seriously - your "great" Ehret article relies on outdated material. 93, 95 citing self (personal bias), 82 - 84 Wendorf, mostly speculative, non-substantiated hearsay. Read what Ehret's source, Wendorf said 15 years later in 1998:

"The source of the Abkan and Baderian Neolithic is unknown, but it was probably derived ultimately from Southwest Asia, possibly by way of Sinai, where prepottery and pottery Neolithic sites have been dated between 11,000 and 9000 cal B.P." (Wendorf; 1998)

"The earliest agricultural communities are found in the Fayum Depression, west of the Nile Valley. ... the oldest flint assemblage, called Fayum B or Qarunian, is of epi-Palaeolithic ancestry... several campsites with Fayum B characteristics were discovered around Qasr es-Sagha. There is growing evidence for a developed Fayum B pottery Neolithic in the Delta... At Merimdeh bowls were found with the typical Yarmukian palm-frond (or herring-bone pattern) motive between two parallel lines on a reserved background, seeming to indicate Palestine as the origin fo this culture... Around Thebes a culture of epi-Palaeolithic characteristics was identified, called Tarifian ...and tentativelly dated to the first half of the fifth millenniup BCE. This "culture" is simlar to Fayum B... (Issar; 2004)

Referring back to your source, the one you made a massive blunder in citing, Scheinfeld 2010:

"By ~8 kya, evidence is present of imported (from the Middle East) sheep or goat remains in northeastern Africa (e.g., ref. 50). Some controversy persists in the archaeological community regarding whether cattle domestication was developed in northern Africa or imported from the Middle East; however, recent DNA analysis of extant indigenous African bovine taurine and zebu cattle (51) supports a model in which the earliest emergence of pastoralism involving taurine cattle took place in northeastern Africa and subsequently spread westward and southward (51)."

"Just centimeters beneath the modern plowed surface, in an area that had been used until recently to grow grapes, the researchers discovered evidence of structures, such as clay floors, and hearths containing homegrown wheat grain and barley. Also unearthed were the remains of sheep, goats, and pigs—which, along with the grains, were imported from the Middle East. These finds could add a new chapter to the history of Egypt's contact with foreign cultures in pre-pharaonic times...Skeletal remains of sheep and goats were also strewn about the site, but the discovery of pig bones has intrigued the experts the most...The crops and animals—and techniques for raising them—were all introduced to Egypt from the ancient Middle East, where domestication of plants and animals is known to have existed as far back as 9000 B.C. It came together as a "package" around 7000 B.C., according to Zeder, an expert in Middle East domestication. (Steven Stanek,Cairo National Geographic Magazine; 2008)

“In the variability of their contents, Maadi’s hundreds of graves indicate at least some social ranking, but it is the functional changes in the community that are the most important. Many hundreds of Syro-Palestinian pots have been found at Maadi, reflecting strong connections to Syro-Palestine and, probably to the evolving Uruk-Jemdet Nasr states of Greater Mesopotamia. Caneva and her co-workers report that Maadi’s lithics also tie it ‘in a wide network of communication, including the Levant and reaching northern Syria’ (1989, p.291)” (Wenke 1991, p.300).

"The Predynastic period dates to the end of the fourth millennium BC. From about 4800 to 4300BC the Merimde culture flourished in Lower Egypt. This culture, among others, has links to the Levant. (Eiwanger; 1999) The pottery of the Buto Maadi culture, best known from the site at Maadi near Cairo, also shows connections to the southern Levant."(Seeher; 1999).

"The Maadi Culture (also called Buto Maadi Culture) is the most important Lower Egyptian prehistoric culture contemporary with Naqada I and II phases in Upper Egypt. The culture is best known from the site Maadi near Cairo, but is also attested in many other places in the Delta to the Fayum region.... Copper was known, and some copper adzes have been found. The pottery is simple and undecorated and shows, in some forms, strong connections to South Palestine". (Bard; 1999)

"Artifacts have been found at Buto that closely resemble those found in Uruk and used to decorate temple facades, as well as potsherds with decoration characteristic of Syrian ware." (LeBlanc; 2002)
“Maadian architecture underwent both direct/indirect internal evolutions and internal/external evolution, and that the Maadian structures evolved into a hybrid architecture featuring elements of both Egyptian and Palestinian ancestry” (Olin and Blin 2003, p.564).

"The relationship between Egypt of the Naqada IIb / IIc-d1 periods and Mesopotamia of the late Middle Uruk period (LC 4) was one-way. To date, no trace has been found of any contemporaneous Egyptian artifacts in the regions of the Euphrates and Tigris rivers and their tributaries. On the other hand, the imported artifacts and Mesopotamian influences in Egypt are manifold." ...(Watrin; 2005)

"The flaked and polished axes that occur at Merimde, El Omari and in the Fayum do appear to be a class suggesting influence from the Levant." (Holmes; 1990)

"Similarities between the cultures of Egypt and Mesopotamia reach their height during the years prior to Egypt's First Dynasty and the Babylonian Jemdet Nasr period." (A biographical dictionary of ancient Egypt,Ann Rosalie David, Antony E. David)

"A Sumerian-type influence does seem to be a good bet for explaining the beginning of Egypt's linked technological, cultural and religious leap forward.... a significant Sumerian-type influence on early Egypt, certainly involving cultural and techonological imports and a significant immigration of broad-headed peoples from West Asia." (Najovits; 2003)

"Collections of surface finds from the desert region in the north-east of Egypt and especially near the modern city of Helwan... produced an interesting sample of Epi-Paleolithic stone tools that show close affinities to the Levantine Epi-Paleolithic and Pre-Pottery Neolithic (PPN) of the ninth to seventh millennium BC. These included typical tanged projectile points...called Helwan points...although the assemblage is otherwise quite distinct from the PPN in the Levant, a connection cannot be excluded. This may abe further corrobrated by a single Helwan point from the earliest level at Merimde Benisalame dating around 5000BC, that also produced ceramics decorated with an incised herringbone design which has parallels in the Yarmukian culture in the southern Levant of the sixth millennium BC. Similar links to assemblages in Palestine, Jordan, and Israel have also been discussed in relation to ceramic technology and morphology at el-Omari.These earliest fully developed Neolithic sites display many traits that are characteristic of the Levantine Neolithic, including the cultivation of cereals such as emmer wheat and barley adn the domestication of sheep and goat, which have no wild ancestors in northern Africa. In combination with other finds, such as Red Sea shells found in early Neolithic sites of the Nile Valley, these traits would suggest that Neolithic subsistence was introduced from Western Asia at a time when that region appears to have experienced a phase of decline." (Lloyd; 2010)

"One of the conundrums of the origin of the Egyptian civilization was the undeniable strong Mesopotamia influence during this period - the relatively sudden appearance of writing, cylinder seals and mud brick architecture with recesses, in conjunction with Mesopotamian art motifs such as serpent-necked animals, griffins, rows of animals, representations of high-hulled ships and people with Near Eastern or Mesopotamian dresses. The excavations at Tell el-Fara'in, ancient Buto, show the same decorative elements of cones and spikes stuck in mud-brick walls as those in the temple facades at Uruk, with a plethora of southern Mesopotamian trade goods dated to Uruk IV/V (Protoliterate B), and the periods immediately following prove close contacts with Asia..." (Issar, Zohar; 2007)
"At least the catalyst of Egypt's sudden advance may have been a wave of Asian immigrants or invaders, the misnamed "Dynastic Race" of broad-headed peoples from West Asia, perhaps beginning after 3500BC during the Gerzean A Predynastic Period and continuing sporadically into the late third millenniup BC. At the same time, there also seems to have been considerable immigration of broad-headed [brachycephalic] peoples from Libya... The archaeological evidence of Mesopotamian influence in Egypt at this time - from technology to architecture to art, seems to be too extensive to exclude a large presence of Sumerians or Levantines." (Najovits; 2003)

"The apparently common factors which manifest themselves in Egypt and Sumer around this time are too many not to warrant some speculation about the possibility of their common, or at least their related, origin. A comparitive examination of the two peoples is appropriate by reason of their close geographical proximity and the fact that they emerged at roughly the same time in their historic form." (Rice; 1991)

"The earliest fully developed Neolithic sites in the Egyptian Nile Valley are located in the north and date between 5100-4500BC with Fayum A and Merimde being the older ones...el Omari has strong affinities with both sites,.. it appears to be slightly later and displays a number of new features that one can also find the the late Neolithic complex of the Badarian culture in the south." (Lloyd; 2010)

 

[Ramses II]

1.d

Now before you run to Mathilda's interpretations of this study I'd advise you to read the text on your own, because it'll swing right back and hit you in the balls.

You've broken all the rules in under 24 hours. I suppose that's naturally to be expected considering your "position".

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

Continuing, Ricaut 2008 does not refute Godde 2011, further, Ricaut misrepresents Brace 2005 in the artice you cited:

"When the samples used in Fig. 1 are compared by the use of canonical variate plots as in Fig. 2, the separateness of the Niger-Congo speakers is again quite clear. Interestingly enough, however, the small Natufian sample falls between the Niger-Congo group and the other samples used. Fig. 2 shows the plot produced by the first two canonical variates, but the same thing happens when canonical variates 1 and 3 (not shown here) are used. This placement suggests that there may have been a Sub-Saharan African element in the make-up of the Natufians (the putative ancestors of the subsequent Neolithic), although in this particular test there is no such evident presence in the North African or Egyptian samples. As shown in Fig. 1, the Somalis and the Egyptian Bronze Age sample from Naqada ]b]may[/b] also have a hint of a Sub-Saharan African component. That was not borne out in the canonical variate plot (Fig. 2), and there was no evidence of such an involvement in the Algerian Neolithic (Gambetta) sample. [...] When the samples used in Fig. 1 are compared by the use of canonical variate plots as in Fig. 2, the separateness of the Niger-Congo speakers is again quite clear." (Brace; 2005)

you depend on "mays" and "hints" for a "black" Egypt. Take a hint - "hints" are not origins.

“Our data show not only that Egypt clearly had biological ties to the north and to the south, but that it was intermediate between populations to the east and the west, and that Egypt was basically Egyptian from the Neolithic right on up to historic times.” (The questionable contribution of the Neolithic and the Bronze Age to European craniofacial form” (Brace; 2006)

Anthropologists studying skeletons that were excavated along the Nile Valley in Egypt and the Sudan have demonstrated reductions in tooth size and changes in the face, including decreased robustness associated with the development of agriculture,

Nope-

"Nubian biological evolution has come under much scrutiny in preceding years with strong opinions dividing scholars' beliefs as to how it occurred. A new approach is necessary to elucidate subtleties of their population structure in order to shed light on the complex subject. This study employs a spatial–temporal model in an effort to test if in situ biological evolution was the mechanism for biological change. Biological distance was calculated from the phenotype using 20 cranial discrete traits observed in Nubian samples from the sites of Semna South, Kerma, and the islands of Hesa and Biga. The periods represented at Semna South are Meroitic, X-Group and Christian, whereas the Kerma site yielded skeletal material from the Kerma period, and the islands of Hesa and Biga date to the Christian period. Mahalanobis D2 with a tetrachoric matrix was used to calculate biological distances among the samples, and three-way Mantel tests were applied to the distance, spatial and temporal matrices. Time was not significantly correlated with biological distance. However, an inverse relationship of time and biological distance is expected under the spatial–temporal model. A lack of significant geographic correlations, as found here, is unusual in most populations, but given the spatial construct of the sites along the Nile, this relationship is not completely unexpected. The lack of significant correlation among time, space and biological distance does not support the in situ hypothesis. Godde, June 8, 2011

"There is an obvious separation of Sub-Saharan and North African samples....These findings are supported by previous affinity estimates based on African genetic, skeletal, dermatoglyphic, anthropometric, linguistic, and cultural data (see Mourant 1954; 1983; Greenberg 1959, 1966; Murdock 1959; Hiernaux 1975; Nurse et al., 1985; Sanchez-Mazas et al, 1986; Excoffier et al 1987; Roychoudhury and Nei 1988; Howells 1989; Froment, 1992a,b; Franciscus 1995; Holliday 1995; among others)....Those groups that are geographically closer to one another display greater dental similarity and vice versa. ... North Africans... show a strong affinity to Europeans and West Asians ...These findings agree with genetic-based results that link North Africans to Europeans and western Asians." (Irish; 1998)

Now as to your source, Trinkhaus 1981:

Limb ratios are of interest because of limb ratios' general relationship to climate per Allen's rule. Mammals (including Homo sapiens sapiens) tend to have shorter distal members of the extremities in colder climates; this is viewed as being adaptive. Hence the shin (tibia)/thigh (femur) index in Europeans would on the average be expected to differ from an equatorial population. Indeed, this is one line of evidence used to
support the idea that at least some, if not most, Upper Paleolithic (anatomically modern) 'Europeans" were immigrants from warmer areas (Trinkhaus 1981). Of course variation is expected in any region or population. Trinkhaus (1981) provides upper and lower extremity distal/proximal member ratios for numerous populations, including a predynastic Egyptian and Mediterranean European series.

"Europeans were immigrants from warmer areas " - therefore limb ratios have nothing to do with race, your own source admitted as much.

"Allen's Rule explains the lean body build of desert folk, be they Tauregs or Turkomans; the beanpole physique of the Nilotic Negroes; and the squat, short-limbed, and short-necked physique of the peoples who dwell in cold regions. Allen's modification of Bergmann's Rule reflects the fact that beyond the point where winter cold ceases to be stimulating and becomes a hazard--a point beyond which no people went earlier than 13,000 years ago--bodies grew shorter and more globular, and weight fails to increase. It may even decrease." (Coon;1965)

"...skin color and limb elongation, are adaptations to the intensity of solar radiation--the first directly so and the second indirectly. Since this is so clearly the case, we should expect those two traits to covary, as indeed they tend to do, throughout the world. Evidently, traits that are distributed in conjunction with the graded intensity of their controlling selective forces will be poor indicators of population relationships. [...] The use of a characterization of a single trait that is under selective force control to generalize about any particular human population can only create confusion. This then will be the inevitable consequence of the use of a description of skin color to say anything about the general nature of human biological variation." (Brace; 1993)

followed directly by: "Despite these differences, all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations." (Zakrzewski, S.R. (2003). "Variation in ancient Egyptian stature and body proportions". American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121 (3): 219-229.

They have differences meaning they're not the same when "compared to the other populations."

"Aside from these interpopulation relationships, some Nubian groups are still more similar to other Nubians and some Egyptians are more similar to other Egyptian samples. Moreover, although the Nubian and Egyptian samples formed one well-distributed group, the Egyptian samples clustered in the upper left region, while the Nubians concentrated in the lower right of the plot. One line can be drawn that would separate the closely dispersed Egyptians and Nubians." (Goode; 2009)

I see reddish Brown Tut and reddish Brown and black Nubians. Now compare that to reddish brown Ramses and white Libyans.

What you "see" is an 1825 crafted plaster copy. http://www.flickr.com/photos/lenkapeac/4508227860/

Comparing the facial features and hair of the Egyptians to that of Nubians shows they're not the same, comparing it to that of Libyans shows relatedness.

 

[Ramses II]

2.

Nope, the Eurocentric shenanigans ended with this one...Newly developed methods" were used to determine the skin color of these Egyptian mummies and they all come out to be black like the Negroids who we all know that they came from.

LOL so says you! Mekota and Vermehren are not anthropologists. Of all the mummified royals found in Egypt, not a single one has been determined as being of negroid origin, with the possible exception of Maiherpri the fan bearer (he was Nubian). Even at that, a NK mummy isn't indicative of predynastic origins and has been pointed out by Zakrzewski, Nubians are first seen in Egypt during the OK, not PD.

"these Badarians lived about 4000 B.C., after the climate had become considerably drier than it was in Tasian times, so dry, in fact, that in many cases the skin and hair of their dead have been naturally preserved. The skin was apparently brunet white, while the hair was black or dark brown in color, thick, of fine texture, and usually wavy in form." ("Civilized Men In Egypt"; Coon)

“Ramses II mummy’s hair is confined to a temporo-occipital zone which corresponds to an advanced stage of baldness. Hairs are slightly crimped and show an oval cross-section, the great axis of which lies between 60 and 70 urn: they are specific of a cymotrich leucoderm.” (Desroches-Noblecourt;1985)

“After having achieved this immense work, an important scientific conclusion remains to be drawn: the anthropological study and the microscopic analysis of hair, carried out by four laboratories: Judiciary Medecine (Professor Ceccaldi), Société L’Oréal, Atomic Energy Commission, and Institut Textile de France showed that Ramses II was a ‘leucoderm’, that is a fair-skinned man, near to the Prehistoric and Antiquity Mediterraneans, or briefly, of the Berber of Africa.” (“Scientifique à l'égyptologique” Lionel, Balout; Roubert, C., Desroches-Noblecourt, Christiane, 1985).

The Afrocentric deception continues, in a vain, ill attempt to paint Egyptians as negroids. Race is not determined from skin color but from non-adaptive craniofacial traits and instead of refuting or addressing the above referenced sources, you resort to repeating yourself for lack of explanation - which is inherently obvious. Let the record reflect, "Taharqa" has absolutely no explanation for: du Vivier 1986. The New Encyclopædia Britannic”, Volume 18? - Page 845 1993. Sompayrac 2004. Soyer, Argenziano, Hofmann-Wellenhof 2007.

And you completely avoided this fact for obvious reasons, it doesn't agree with your ideology: :grin:

(2) "the sample studied originates from Gebelein in Upper Egypt. Interestingly, the only other sample deriving from Gebelein, an EPD sample, was found to be significantly biologically distant to the MK sample. This result suggests that there is no simple biological population continuity at Gebelein. Stele indicate that Nubian mercenaries lived, married, died, and were buried at this site over the MK period (Fischer, 1961). "The values for the brachial and crural indices show that the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in may "African" populations"

Nope sorry most studies associate M1 with East Africans (because that's where it origianted): "...A clear and significant genetic differentiation between the Berbers from Maghreb and Egyptian Berbers was also observed. The first are related to European populations as shown by haplogroup H1 and V frequencies, whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1 and the presence of L0a1, L3i, L4*, and L4b2 lineages. Moreover, haplogroup U6 was not observed in Siwa. ..."

Wrong, again - on several accounts. Your source, Coudray 2008 doesn't say a word about "origins" in the quote you provided but "high frequency": "whereas the latter share more affinities with East African and Nile Valley populations as indicated by the high frequency of M1."

Now how could you confuse origins with frequency?!?! HOWEVER, your source Coudray 2008 does in fact discuss M1's origins - a point you made a point to ignore:

"M1 is a subclade of southwest Asian ancestry that moved to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago (Olivieri et al; 2006). Its highest frequencies are found in Egypt (~18%) and in eastern Africa (~11% in Ethiopia and Somalia)." - your source, Coudray 2008

Your own sources say the exact opposite of what YOU say!

In addition, haplogroups U (without U6 and K) and K were the most represented in Siwa, but that does nothing for you since the Siwa oasis is located on the edge of the western Egyptian desert bordering Libya, not the Nile.

"Even if both haplogroups are thought to have been carried by a back-to-Africa migration from the Near East, significant increased U6 frequencies have been detected in the West compared to the East." (Fadhlaoui-Zid; 2011)

The Eurasian U6 lineage is mainly present in North Africa and shows an opposite frequency gradient respect to Eurasian M1, U6 being significantly more frequent in the West, whereas M1 is more frequent in the East. Simply meaning U6's presence in the East was less frequent, not absent - logically speaking, the female members of U6 migrated through Egypt (some obviously settled in Egypt) en route to the west.

"the M1 and U6 haplogroups, originated simultaneously in western Asia... and spread together with modern humans into northern Africa... These early populations may represent the root-stock of the early settlers/inhabitants of the Eastern Sahara who were subsequently to people the Nile Valley, and build one of the first organized civilized states – the Egyptian pharaonic Empire." (Aubry et al; 2008)

..the M1 presence in the Arabian peninsula signals a predominant East African influence since the Neolithic onwards.“ -- Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:

The coalescence age of M1 is Paleolithic, your quote is dealing with the Neolithic, in addition, your source Petraglia presented two scenarios for M1, the one you quoted above in favor of Petraglia's other, below. This shows your dishonesty cherry-picking one over the other:

"Others think that the distribution of M1 in Africa traces an early human backflow to this Continent from Asia." Petraglia, M and Rose, J (2010). The Evolution of Human Populations in Arabia:

Majority consensus establishes M1 as having Eurasian precedent.

“Sequencing of 81 entire human mitochondrial DNAs (mtDNAs) belonging to haplogroups M1 and U6 reveals that these predominantly North African clades arose in southwestern Asia and moved together to Africa about 40,000 to 45,000 years ago." (Olivieri et al; 2006)

"Haplogroups M and N, which are found in all non-Africans." (Richards; 2006)

"...U6, M1) derived respectively from the three main Eurasian macrohaplogroups (N, R, M) came back to North Africa from Asia [38-42]." (Abu-Amero et al; 2009)

"M1 is a non-Sub Saharan lineage...Most of the M1 lineages likely come from the Mediterranean instead of East Africa...M1 sub-lineages have a mainly Mediterrandean distribution" (Cerezo et a;l 2010)

"More recent studies of subclade M1 in North Africa and the Levant have led to a different explanation for the geobraphic distribution of this critical genetic marker. Some researchers now propose that M1 arose in southwest Asia and moved back into Africa sometime between 45,000 and 40,000 years ago (Oliveri et al. 2006). Gonzales et al. (2007) also report the most ancient M1 lineages in North Africa and the Near East, not East Africa, suggesting an Asiatic origin for this lineage. Other analysis within the last decade examining Y chromosome DNA markers have produced additional evidence of Late Pleistocene back migrations into Africa (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Cruciani et al. 2002; Hammer et al. 1998)...there is no reason to presume that the founder M population originated in East Africa rather than south Asia or some other place therein." (Rose; 2010)

"By examining genetic diversity among Asian and North African extant populations, Olivieri et al. [125] and González et al. [126] propose an Asian origin of haplogroup M and its back migration via the Sinai land bridge into Africa sometime between 45 and 40kya. In this regard, González et al. [ibid., page 223] write, “The coalescence age of the African haplogroup M1 is younger than those for other M Asiatic clades. In contradiction to the hypothesis of an eastern Africa origin for modern human expansions out of Africa, the most ancestral M1 lineages have been found in Northwest Africa and in the Near East, instead of in East Africa.” Rowold et al. [132] provide additional evidence for back migration of Upper Paleolithic populations through the Sinai land bridge. The possibility of back migration from Asia to Africa has also been confirmed by other genetic studies on human Y-chromosome haplotypes [128, 129]. ...In light of the growing genetic data in favor of an Asian origin of haplogroup M (one of the two founding mtDNA haplogroups for all modern humans outside of Africa), there appears to have been an Asiatic locus/loci of Upper Pleistocene human expansions. Upper Pleistocene Human Dispersals out of Africa: A Review of the Current State of the Debate 2011

 

[Ramses II]

2.b

The study is plotting the populations according to their limb proportions. The ancient Egyptians being the tropically adapted dark skinned African populations that they were, grouped with other tropically adapted dark skinned populations (including African Americans):

I don't see the word "ancient Egyptian" on that chart, that is an invention of your imagination. I see "limb proportions of modern humans..." Melanesians, Arizona Indians and Pygmies plot closest, and despite ancient/modern Egyptians not belonging to those populations, you're willing to misrepresent data and tell us ancient/modern Egyptians originate among Melanesians, Arizona Indians and Pygmies all based only on environmentally adaptable trait. (From your post #8: "What color do Pygmies and Melanesians have? These are who this study groups the ancient Egyptians with." And not only that, that particular chart depicts (modern) Egyptians having much higher limb ratios, hence "significantly different" than modern West Africans who live closest to the equatorial belt. And for lack of a better word, coin this trait "super negroid" even though they specifically told you it "does not mean the ancient Egyptians were negroes".

"Late Neolithic and Early Bronze Age peoples display elongated brachial and crural indices reminiscent of terminal Pleistocene and "tropically adapted" recent humans. These marked morphological changes likely reflect exogenous immigration during the terminal Fourth millennium cal BC. Population continuity, demic diffusion and Neolithic origins in central-southern Germany: the evidence from body proportions." (Gallagher; 2009)

So negroids don't have a monopoly on "tropically adapted" limb lengths, which could also be mistaken or attributed to difference in altitude:

"Overall body size and limb lengths relative to body size vary along an altitudinal gradient, with larger individuals from coastal environments and smaller individuals with relatively longer limbs for their size from higher elevations." (Weinstein; 2005)

AND:

"Living human populations from high altitudes in the Andes exhibit relatively short limbs compared with neighboring groups from lower elevations as adaptations to cold climates characteristic of high-altitude environments." (Weinstein; 2005)

AND:

"The variation of the topography of the Southern Levant has made the people's responses to environmental changes different from the responses of the people in Egypt. The topography of the Southern Levant adds a new demension to the environmental differences between the Southern Levant and Egypt." (Mahmout; 2009)

IN ADDITION TO:

"The argument from morphology depends on the presupposition that body proportions are to a large degree genetically controlled. The fact that contemporary African Americans do not have tropical limb proportions but have in a few hundred years changed to more European body proportions (through adaptation to new climate plus intermixture with Europeans and First Nations Peoples) puts this claim into perspective (Pat Shipman, adjunct professor of biological anthropology, Pennsylvania State University, personal communication, 14 May 2004)."

The change in limb ratios need not take thousands of years, only a couple hundred as seen amongst blacks while living in North America, fully explaining why Badarian and EPD Egyptians originally did not posses this trait yet having been found amongst their descendents in NK remains; it's indicative of adaptation to a geographic location, rather than gene flow or origins and since Egypt and Nubia have similar terrain and climate, an overlapping of the two territories would require similar adaptations to environment - therefore common adaptation cannot be discounted, nevermind the fact Egyptians were stated to be significantly different than U.S. blacks. There is also another simple explanation - of course, having nothing to do with origins:

"Hierakonpolis is a site in Upper Egypt that represents the transitional from Predynastic to the Dynastic periods (5000-3100 BC). This drastic social change to the formation of the Dynastic state was associated with the intensification of agriculture. These changes in the subsistence strategy should be reflected in the skeletons of the people. Stature is a measure not only of human health, but also of subsistence strategy and economy. In this study, the stature of 86 adult individuals (39 males and 47 females) from the HK43 Predynastic cemetery at Hierakonpolis was calculated and compared with the calculated stature from earlier El-Badari (6 males and 4 females) and with Abydos and Al-Amrah (11 males and 11 females) later sites. All these bones were measured using the same methods, and stature was computed using the same equations derived by Robins and Shute (1986) specificly for Egyptian samples. The results show an increase of human stature from the Badarian period and slightly stable stature during the later periods. This can be explained as by health status being decreased during the intensification of agriculture resulting in the short stature of the Badarians and increasing during the later periods, including the societal transition to Pharonic society, with the development in agriculture.The increased availability of food during these later periods resulted in the relative stability of stature.'A.M. Khwaileh. Department of Anthropology, University of Arkansas. 2005

"caution must be exercised when using postcranial elements to determine ancestry." (Tallman; 2005)

Now let brace explain what ecological principal indicates based on this fact: "In this regard it is interesting to note that limb proportions of Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be "Super-Negroid," meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans.....skin color intensification and distal limb elongation are apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics." (-- C.L. Brace, 1993. Clines and clusters..") Sorry about your luck.

"are reported to be" -- By Robins and Schute-- Brace doesn't condone such terminology and his study from whence you grabbed the above quote, utterly demolished any so-called "black" Egypt origins.

"Evidently, traits that are distributed in conjunction with the graded intensity of their controlling selective forces will be poor indicators of population relationships. (Darwin, 1859) ...The use of a characterization of a single trait that is under selective force control to generalize about any particular human population can only create confusion. - - - Brace emphasizes:

"It is obvious that both the Predynastic and the Late Dynastic Egyptians are more closely related to the European cluster than they are to any of the other major regional clusters in the world. ...The prehistoric sample from Naqada is also closely related to the more recent Egyptians as the first systematic study of their crania demonstrated (Fawcett and Lee) and this tie remains when we break the various groups down into their constituents and test the possibilities of finer local relationships....The groups from which membership was least likely to be excluded were the lumped Europeans and the Predynastic population from Upper Egypt, with P values of 0.837 and 0.110 respectively. When the Predynastic group was tested against the other 12, the probability that it could be excluded from modern Europeans was 0.390, and from the Late Dynastic sample it was 0.218, neither of which is significant....The indications of exclusion, however, are much easier to interpret. For example, the likelihood that either the Giza or Naqada configuration could occur in West Africa, the Congo, or points south is vanishingly small-0.000 and 0.001. Whatever else one can or cannot say about the Egyptians, it is clear that their cranio-facial morphology has nothing whatsoever in common with sub-Saharan Africans. Our data, then, provide no support for the claim that there was a “strong negroid element” in Predynastic Egypt." (Asante, 1990; Morant, 1937; Randall-Mac Iver and Woolley, 1909; Strouhal, 1971)." (Brace; 1993)

As I've explained the sampling of highly variable African Americans is at issue with these comparisons. Some group right next to tropical Africans and some group a little distantly. In the analysis below they used the "Negro" equation to describe the ancient Egyptian limb proportions. "It can be seen that all the pharonic values, including those of 'Smakhare', lie much closer to the negro curve than to the white curve.Since stature equations only work satisfactorily in the individuals to whom they have applied have similar proportions to the population group from which they are derived, this provides justification for using negro equations for estimating stature from single bones of the New Kingdom pharoahs, renforcing the previous findings of Robins (1983). Furthermore, the Troller and Gleser white equations for the femur, tibia and humerus yield stature values that have a much wider spread than those from negro equations with mean values that are unacceptably large."--Robins and Schute. The Physical Proportions and Stature of New Kingdom Pharaohs," Journal of Human Evolution 12 (1983), 455-465 or "Estimates of living stature, based on X-ray measurements applied to the Trotter & Gleser (1958) negro equations for the femur, tibia and humerus, have been made for ancient Egyptian kings belonging to the 18th and 19th dynasties. The corresponding equations for whites give values for stature that are unsatisfactorily high. The view that Thutmose III was excessively short is proved to be a myth. It is shown that the limbs of the pharaohs, like those of other Ancient Egyptians, had negroid characteristics, in that the distal segments were relatively long in comparison with the proximal segments. An exception was Ramesses II, who appears to have had short legs below the knees."--Robins and Schute. The Physical Proportions and Stature of New Kingdom Pharaohs," Journal of Human Evolution 12 (1983), 455-465

The term "super-negroid" has nothing to do with race since the authors who coined the term said so:

“This does not mean that the ancient Egyptians were negroes; indeed, in their art they clearly distinguished between their own facial features and skin colour and those of people from further south.” (“Predynastic Egyptian Stature And Physical Proportions” Robins G, Shute CCD. 1986)

And the fact remains, as clearly stated aforesaid: "Badarians and Early Dynastic Egyptians did not possess "tropical limbs" they had short tibia (1) as per Zakrzewski (2003)" -- "Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length." What adaptively trivial traits ancient Egyptians' descendents acquired after the EPD and between NK to today is irrelevant, since modern Egyptians possess this characteristic as well.

"Changes to stature and/or body mass within a population over time as reflected in skeletal samples, can be interpreted as indicating a response to environmental stressors (e.g., resource availability, population density, disease, etc.) (Zakrzewski, 2003, 2007; Pfeiffer and Sealy, 2006; Stynder et al., 2007; Giannecchini and Moggi-Cecchi, 2008; Ginter, 2008)."--H.K. Kurki (2010)

And:

"Ancient Egyptians as a whole generally exhibit intermediate body breadths relative to higher and lower latitude populations, with Lower Egyptians possessing wider body breadths, as well as lower brachial and crural indices, compared to Upper Egyptians and Upper Nubians. This may suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups, but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments These results may also reflect the greater plasticity of limb length compared to body breadth. ...It can be seen that previous stature estimation methods tend to overestimate Egyptian stature for both sexes. The present studys stature estimates (bolded) are about 1-3 cm less than that of other studies for the same time periods, with an average 1.5 cm difference. New Kingdom pharaoh males may have been taller because of their higher status, however Robins and Shute (1983) used Trotter and Glesers (1958) equations for American Blacks to estimate their statures is the mean using regression formulae for the femur). Raxter et al. (2008) showed that although ancient Egyptians proportions are closer to American Blacks than they are to American Whites, they are not identical. Stature regression equations derived from American Black populations may therefore not be appropriate to estimate the statures of ancient Egyptians. ...The fact that limb proportions in ancient Egyptians are somewhat more “tropical” may reflect the greater lability of limb length compared to body breadth. The results may also suggest that Egyptians are closely related to circum-Mediterranean and/or Near Eastern groups and have retained those body breadths acquired earlier in time, but quickly developed limb length proportions more suited to their present very hot environments. The present results for bi-iliac breadth are also consistent with various genetic studies that have found modern Egyptians to have close affinities to Middle and Near Easterners (Manni et al., 2002; Arredi et al., 2004; Shepard and Herrera, 2006; Rowold et al., 2007) and Southern Europeans/Mediterranean groups (Capelli et al., 2006). Some of these authors suggested their results may have been associated with a diffusion from the Near East during the expansion of early food-producing societies (Arredi et al., 2004; Rowold et al., 2007)....MK, NK, and Roman-Byzantine Nubian males exhibit greater stature variation than their Egyptian counterparts from the same periods, with Nubian males possessing more variation compared to Nubian females. The greater variation in Nubian males may be indicative of greater in-migration of and intermarriage with foreign males. (Raxter; 2011)

The unscientific defunct "super-negroid" term is officially trashed. Ancestry and/or biological affinity is not determined by adaptable traits, but is established accurately only from the skull. Hence:

"The skull is considered to be the most useful part of the skeleton to utilize in the assessment of ancestry." (Howells 1973; Rhine 1993)

"Troller"? Afrocentrics give away their "location" all the time with this one, by copying garbage from Egyptsearch's own "Zarahan".

Another not job insisting on saying that a parent population really has the affinities of it's descendants (rather than visa versa....logically):
"What would account for this range of resemblances- infraspecific convergence, parallelism, admixture, chance or all of these? It is perhaps best to consider these findings as reflective primarily of an indigenous northeast African biological evolutionary history and diversity. Hiernaux (1975) reports that the range of values in selected metric units from populations in the northeast quadrant of Africa collectively largely overlaps the range found in the world. Given that this region may be the place from which modern humans left Africa, its people may have retained an overall more generalized craniometric pattern whose individual variants for selected variables may resemble a range of centroid values for non-African population values." -- S.O.Y. Keita, "On Meriotic Nubian Crania Fordisc 2.0, and Human Biological History." Current Anthropology Volume 48, Number 3, June 2007

Take notice of the highlighted portions, your source (above) refutes your "position" de facto, in addition, back-migrations of Caucasoids into NE Africa from the Levant before and during the Neolithic contributed to Egypt's early state formation. Sub Saharans are not the same as North East Africans and Hiernaux's main contention is that Egyptians have always been a Mediterranean people:

"The relative anthropological stability of the farming population of Egypt has been traced back for at least five millennia. No major discontinuity appears in the osteological record between predynastic and dynastic skeletons, and between these and recent series."

Offspring/parents do resemble each other since craniofacial traits undeniably exhibit high heritability, in that we all tend to resemble our parents. (Sparks and Jantz 2002) "Taharqa" is willing to admit ancient Egyptians show similarity with Eurasian and European populations yet not with Sub Saharan populations, while claiming Egyptians descend from Sub Saharans. Such a "position" doesn't even make sense! This is why you avoided Zakrzewski 2003's statement of which the EPD Gebelein sample shows no biological relation to the later intrusive MK Nubian sample.

"The oldest known remains of Homo sapiens sapiens from North Africa are not early either: they are dated at 10,000 B.C. and are associated with a blade and microlith culture called the Ibero-Maurusian (or Mouillian). They have been found at a number of sites in north-west Africa, of which the two most important are Taforalt in Morocco and Afalou-Bou-Rhummel in Algeria. More than a hundred individuals are represented and they are usually described as Mechta or Mechta-Afalou group." (pg 41)

"This group, which is generally believed to have come from Spain or the Near East (although it could have evolved locally), resembles the Cro-Magnon population of Europe. They were tall and robust people, with a very large skull displaying heavy brow ridges, and a short and broad face. The main difference between them and their European counterparts lies in their wider nose." (pg 41) - your source Hiernaux.

Nubians hold an intermediary position between Egyptians and Somalis due to admixture -

"The Somali population was found to be genetically distinct from the other northeast African populations. Individuals from northern Sudan clustered together with those from Egypt, and individuals from southern Sudan clustered with those from the Karamoja population. The similarity of the Nubian and Egyptian populations suggest that migration, potentially bidirectional, occurred along the Nile river Valley, which is consistent with the historical evidence for long-term interactions between Egypt and Nubia. (Babiker; 2011)

or even Brace "An earlier generation of anthropologists tried to explain face form in the Horn of Africa as the result of admixture from hypothetical “wandering Caucasoids,” (Adams, 1967, 1979; MacGaffey, 1966; Seligman, 1913, 1915, 1934), but that explanation founders on the paradox of why that supposedly potent “Caucasoid” people contributed a dominant quantity of genes for nose and face form but none for skin color or limb proportions. It makes far better sense to regard the adaptively significant features seen in the Horn of Africa as solely an in situ response on the part of separate adaptive traits to the selective forces present in the hot dry tropics of eastern Africa. From the observation that 12,000 years was not a long enough period of time to produce any noticeable variation in pigment by latitude in the New World and that 50,000 years has been barely long enough to produce the beginnings of a gradation in Australia (Brace, 1993a), one would have to argue that the inhabitants of the Upper Nile and the East Horn of Africa have been equatorial for many tens of thousands of years. NOW HERE IS THE PART "TAHARQA" DELIBERATELY OMITTED:----"ON THE OTHER HAND, the residual similarity of craniofacial configurations between the Somalis and people farther north suggests that genetic exchange has been more continuous along that axis than with peoples farther west in Sub-Saharan Africa."

Again, another example of dishonesty, omitting/excluding information that doesn't run parallel to your ideology, obviously based on deep-seated animosity towards Europeans/Eurasians. There is no other reason.

"There is the very real possibility, for example, that the darker skin pigmentation visible in the people of the Upper Nile is not caused by the mixing of a population that come from somewhere else...As our data show, the people of the Horn of Africa are craniofacially less distinct from a spectrum of samples marginally including South Asia and running all the way from the Middle East to northwest Europe than they are to any group in sub-Saharan Africa....The measurements were principally of adaptively trivial traits that display patterns of regional similarities based solely on genetic relationships. The Predynastic of Upper Egypt and the Late Dynastic of Lower Egypt are more closely related to each other than to any other population. As a whole, they show ties with the European Neolithic, North Africa, modern Europe, and, more remotely, India, but not at all with sub-Saharan Africa, eastern Asia, Oceania, or the New World. Adjacent people in the Nile valley show similarities in trivial traits in an unbroken series from the delta in the north southward through Nubia and all the way to Somalia at the equator. At the same time, the gradient in skin color and body proportions suggests long-term adaptive response to selective forces appropriate to the latitude where they occur. An assessment of “race” is as useless as it is impossible. Neither clines nor clusters alone suffice to deal with the biological nature of a widely distributed population. Both must be used. We conclude that the Egyptians have been in place since back in the Pleistocene and have been largely unaffected by either invasions or migrations. As others have noted, Egyptians are Egyptians, and they were so in the past as well." (Brace; 1993)

"More recent is the fact, already suspected at Soleb by G. Billy and M.C. Chamla, that in Nubia, the nasal index, originally identical to European values, then increases considerably to attain the figures observed in Central Africa. This phenomenon of nasal enlargement is not, in Nubia, related to the humidification of the climate since on the contrary it has gotten more arid, and thus highlights genetic exchanges, in the sense of a greater contribution from Black Africa; leave it to archaeology to correlate this change with cultural developments." (Froment; 1994)

There's a reason you chose to deliberately exclude the information when it doesn't suit you, and when you fail to include it, you are either taking information out of context, manipulating it, or making off the cuff remarks that your sources do not agree with or support.

"Around 39,000–52,000 years ago, the western Asian branch spread radially, bringing Caucasians to North Africa and Europe..." (Maca-Meyer et al; 2001)

"Attested presence of Caucasian people in northern Africa goes up to Paleolithic times...("Maca-Meyer et al; 2003)

"The expansion of Caucasians in Africa has been correlated with the spread and diversification of Afroasiatic languages" (Maca-Meyer et al; 2003)

"The Nile River delta population is mainly Caucasian in origin" (Herrera et al; 2004)

"North African populations are distinct from sub-Saharan Africans based on cultural, linguistic, and phenotypic attributes." (Henn et al; 2012)

"the M1 and U6 haplogroups, originated simultaneously in western Asia... and spread together with modern humans into northern Africa... These early populations may represent the root-stock of the early settlers/inhabitants of the Eastern Sahara who were subsequently to people the Nile Valley, and build one of the first organized civilized states – the Egyptian pharaonic Empire. (Aubry et al; 2008)

“We examined radiographs of 12 Egyptian royal mummies obtained by two of the authors (W.R. and J.E.H.) and never before published.... These people were Caucasian." (Braunstein et al; 1988)

All studies are in agreement, it's Afrocentrics that show a complete lack in basic comprehension and reading - or an intent to deceive and mislead by deliberately and intentionally omitting and editing out the crux of information being relayed in scientific papers.

 

[Ramses II]

Rhinoplasty, skin bleaching, fake hair can work wonders, it did for Iman Mohamed Abdulmajid



"The Somali population was found to be genetically distinct from the other northeast African populations." (Babiker; 2011)

 

[Ramses II]

Random skim

from post #42

I've never understood why some people continue to suggest that because the corpse of Ramses II and a couple of other mummies have extremely out of place hair colors (bleach blond to auburn) that they were somehow a displaced " --------END NONSENSE.

After that long garbled rant about hair, why don't you entertain us with a pic of a pure/umixed indegenous tropical negroid with long straight natural hair. I doubt you will. Nor would you be willing to explain why Maiherpri the Nubian has typical negroid hair (wig or not) as expected from someone of "tropical" origin, as opposed to Ramses II who does not. Their hair and phenotypes set them apart.

And then, you cite a study that deals specifically with, not an Egyptian mummy, but a female Greek mummy from Thessaloniki dated to 1700BP in yet another blatant attempt to mislead:

Journal of Archaeological Science doi:10.1016/j.jas.2008.07.003 Indications of embalming in Roman Greece by physical, chemical and histological analysis "The current colour of the hair is brown with reddish highlights, a common observation on many mummies, and probably originated through post-mortem alteration (Aufderheide, 2003; Wilson et al., 2001). Sun-exposure, bacterial reaction, and embalming methods are some of the factors that may affect the original hair colour. As a result, hair that was originally black or brown exhibits reddish, orange or even blond colour due to post mortem alterations. All human hair, however, does not turn red over archaeological time-scales (Wilson, 2001). Based on the histological analysis of the unstained hair samples, the limited fungal influence, and the macroscopic view, it can be assumed that the original hair colour was brown. Similar cases of hair preservation have been reported in studies of both mummified and non-mummified human remains (Aufderheide, 2003; Brothwell and Dobney, 1986; Lubec et al., 1987; White, 1993; Wilson et al., 2002, 2007b)."

All human hair, however, does not turn red over archaeological time-scales (Wilson, 2001)" Your own source, again, refutes your position. Even you are well familiar with the fact Ramses II hair was not the result of embalming material, but that it was dyed red in old age to retain his youthful appearance. Nor does your source explain away or take into account why the royals had straight/wavy hair as opposed to nappy/coiled hair -- as expected of a "tropical"/"black" population you continue to erroneously insist. Many naturally mummified bodies are discovered with genuine blonde or brown hair. But I suppose you're going to next concoct a story insisting that unmixed pure "tropical" negroids can have naturally straight/wavy hair, in addition to it being red, blonde or brown - - along with Caucasoid facial features to boot. I haven't found a negroid tribe yet that exhibits such characteristics. Good luck in your futile attempt.

[QUOTE["Modern scientific analysis of his [Ramses II] hair-roots has confirmed that in his youth the king was indeed a natural red-head." (Tyldesley; 2001)

“In 1975 a 105 member team of scientists led by Lionel Baloud “restored” the mummy of Rameses II (c. 12790-1213 B.C.) and concluded, among many other points, that his hair was of the “European” type. Some Egyptologists even maintain that Rameses II’s hair was also red, rather than dyed red.” (Najovits; 2004)

“Ramses II mummy’s hair is confined to a temporo-occipital zone which corresponds to an advanced stage of baldness. Hairs are slightly crimped and show an oval cross-section, the great axis of which lies between 60 and 70 urn: they are specific of a cymotrich leucoderm.” (“Scientifique à l'égyptologique” Lionel, Balout; Roubert, C., Desroches-Noblecourt, Christiane, 1985)

"Joann Fletcher, a consultant to the Bioanthropology Foundation in the UK, in what she calls an "absolute, thorough study of all ancient Egyptian hair samples" — relied on various techniques, such as electron microscopy and chromatography to analyze hair samples. She discovered that most of the natural hair types and those used for hairpieces were made of what she calls "Caucasian-type" hair, including even instances of blonde and red hair. Fletcher surmises that some of the lighter hair types may have been influenced by the presence of ancient Libyans and Greeks in ancient Egypt. However, this type of hair was also found to be present in much earlier times." (Parks, Lisa. May 29, 2000. Ancient Egyptians Wore Wigs. Egypt Revealed Magazine)

"Following the latest season at the Predynastic cemetery site HK43, the anticipation felt while writing the article “Hair: Unraveling the Secrets of the Locks!” has proven to be fully justified. The work itself has involved analysis of the numerous hair samples taken during the 1997 season and new material as it was uncovered on site on an almost daily basis in 1998, with results even more significant than we could have hoped for. Work in the lab next to the courtyard began with material discovered last season; the assorted packages and containers each carefully unwrapped to reveal a whole range of fascinating hair samples. These were examined microscopically and latest discoveries under the microscope would be discussed with those made in the field, followed up by animated, if often rather unsavory, lunch-time conversations on everything from head lice to armpit hair. The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the site were cynotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard throughout dynastic times. Samples ranged from a single hair to a complete headful, with the largest number originating from the disturbed Burial no. 16, the Mudira (the directress), a female of around 35+ years of age, discovered at the end of last season." (Nekhen News 9, page 4; 1998)

“Hair was predominately used to construct the wigs and false braids which served as items of daily and funerary attire throughout the Pharaonic period (Fletcher 1995). The hair employed for this purpose was specifically human hair, and in almost every case can be identified as cynotrichous (Caucasian) rather than heliotrichous (Negroid) (Hrdy 1978; Titlbachova and Titlbach 1977; Brunton 1937; el-Tatrawi 1935).” (“Ancient Egyptian Materials and Technology Paul Nicholson, Ian Shaw 2000)

"We are able to form a very precise idea of the structure of the body of the Proto-Egyptian (First Egyptians) … it presented no resemblance whatever to the so-called ‘woolly’ appearance and peppercorn-like arrangement of the Negro’s hair.” (The Ancient Egyptians and Their Influence Upon European Civilization, 1911, G. Eliott Smith, Professor of Anatomy in the University of Manchester, England.)[/QUOTE]

Embalmed or not. Natural or dyed. The racial composition and color of the hair can still be determined no matter what state it's in, your own source says so!



#42

"From a scientific perspective the concept of "race" is invalid,"

The hypocrisy and idiocy contained in your exchange is laughable. Are you so inept as a thinker and debater that you believe the existence of race debate has no bearing on a debate in which racial classification is the underlining issue?

You've repeatedly told us Egypt was "black" "black" "black" however, you now claim "black" is an invalid classification. You attached a label that you now deem arbitrary. Since "negroes" or "blacks" do not exist, according to your own admission, ancient Egyptians could not have been "negroes" or "blacks". So this is fraud on your part since *you* claim negroid/black does not exist.

If true science does not validate "race" why are you arguing in favor of ancient Egyptians resembling a non-existent pseudo-scientific "social construct?" Your hypocrisy, double-standards and outright lies - all exposed in previous posts - is an affront to the scholarly debate you demand of your opponents. There is no logic in refuting a position that is inherently invalid by your own admission.

The south is also where the Egyptian civilization originated and where the vast majority of ancient Egypt's populations resided prior to the New Kingdom.

I've seen nothing from you yet which comes to that conclusion. "The south" is a vague remark, and you offer no evidence in support of it. The oldest habitation was in the north (discussed already). And Keita, who you quoted earlier is in complete disagreement with you.

"Lower Nubia had a much smaller population than Egypt, which is important to consider in writing of the historical biology of the population" (Keita; 2005)

Comments like this generated laughter in this seminar of Kemet at Manchester (UK), who have recently accepted and embrace the fact that ancient Egypt (or Kemet) was a black African civilization.

Sally-Ann Ashton (nor her photographer lackey) couldn't even support nor was willing to defend her laughable position in a basic email exchange. Notably, in the 14:53 waste you posted, Ashton failed to reference a single source in support of her claims.

And the "comments" you fallaciously attribute the "laughter" - of a black audience she is appealing to, (in addition to a black prison population according to the website) have nothing to do with a "black" Egypt but Astons' erroneous conclusion, in fantasizing Cleopatra as some sort of mulatto.

Black Cleopatra Debunked:

Refuting 'Black to Kemet' Fitzwilliam Museum expo:

Egyptians: Which Side of the Vase?:

 

[Ramses II]

Originally Posted by Belisarius
5) The royal mummies have caucasoid features

You are incorrect once again:

We see who is "incorrect" once the deliberately edited portion is inserted right back in its rightful and proper context:

"The predominant craniometric pattern in the Abydos royal tombs is 'southern' (tropical African variant), and this is consistent with what would be expected based on the literature and other results (Keita, 1990). This pattern is seen in both group and unknown analyses... - THE PART "TAHARQA" DELIBERATELY EXCLUDED ---->However, lower Egyptian, Maghrebian, and European patterns are observed also, thus making for great diversity. The Maghrebian affinities may be difficult to interpret, given that this series contains a range of variation from tropical African to European metric phenotypes (Keita, 1990). It is not possible to say, because of the complex geometry of the multivariate method (Blakith and Reyment, 1971), what more specific affinities individual crania may have. The Maghreb series does have a modal pattern most similar to late lower dynastic Egyptians (Keita, 1990). The centroid values of the various upper Egyptian series viewed collectively are seen to vary over time. The general trend from Badari to Nakada times, and then from the Nakadan to the First Dynasty epochs demonstrate change toward the northern-Egyptian centroid value [/U]on Function I with similar values on Function 11. This might represent an average change from an Africoid (Keita, 1990) to a northern-Egyptian-Maghreb modal pattern.It is clear however from the unknown analyses that the Abydos centroid value is explained primarily by the relatively greater number of crania with northern-Egyptian-Maghreb and European patterns in the series. Badari crania analyzed in this fashion revealed few or none which classified into the northern-Egyptian groups (Keita, 1990). This northern modal pattern, which can be called coastal northern African, is noted in general terms to be intermediate, by the centroid scores of Function I, to equatorial African and northern European phenotypes. As noted earlier, Howells’ work (1973) also demonstrates this, and Howells notes the difference with the Nakada predynastic group. The Abydos crania as a series do have continuity with the southern pattern, but change occurs. The notable increase in northern pattern crania in the south, from Badari times, might have a selection explanation, but the essentially bimodal nature of the presence of the contrasting trends suggests the presence of “real” northerners. Conditions in southern Upper Egypt between Badari and First Dynasty periods would not seem to have favored genetic drift; exogamy is postulated during Nakada times (Hassan, 19881, and this would tend to oppose the effects of drift, especially when coupled with an increasing population.. The effects of admixture and/or heterosis on classification are unknown. (North-south hybrids may classify as northerners.)

Archaeology and history seem to provide the most parsimonious explanation for the variation in the royal tombs at Abydos.. Tomb design suggests the presence of northerners in the south in late Nakada times (Hoffman, 1988) when the unification probably took place. Delta names are attached to some of the tombs at Abydos (Gardiner, 1961; Yurco, 1990, personal communication), thus perhaps supporting Petrie's (1939) and Gardiner's contention that north-south marriages were undertaken to legitimize the hegemony of the south. The courtiers of northern elites would have accompanied them.

Given all of the above, it is probably not possible to view the Abydos royal tomb sample as representative of the general southern Upper Egyptian population of the time. Southern elites and/or their descendants eventually came to be buried in the north (Hoffman, 1988). Hence early Second Dynasty kings and Djoser (Dynasty 111) (Hayes, 1953) and his descendants are not buried in Abydos. Petrie (1939) states that the Third Dynasty, buried in the north, was of Sudanese origin, but southern Egypt is equally likely. This perhaps explains Harris and Weeks' (1973) suggested findings of southern morphologies in some Old Kingdom Giza remains, also verified in portraiture (Drake, 1987). Further study would be required to ascertain trends in the general population of both regions. The strong Sudanese affinity noted in the unknown analyses may reflect the Nubian interactions with upper Egypt in predynastic times prior to Egyptian unification (Williams, 1980,1986)..." (S. Keita (1992) Further Studies of Crania From Ancient Northern Africa: An Analysis of Crania From First Dynasty Egyptian Tombs, Using Multiple Discriminant Functions. AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY 87:245-254)

Belisarius is clearly discussing the royal mummies from KV that we're all familiar with and have seen pictures of, - not the Abydos tombs, which aren't, according to your source, Keita, representative of Egyptians. The bulk of Keita's papers have been refuted and debunked by many geneticists and anthropologists alike, but what you fail to comprehend is that Keita, above, at least according to the properly cited full and unedited version, differentiates between "southern" :"Abydos royal tombs is 'southern' (tropical African variant)"... and Egyptian: "lower Egyptian, Maghrebian, and European patterns are observed also, thus making for great diversity." your first mistake in this is failing to catch on when Keita stated: "it is probably not possible to view the Abydos royal tomb sample as representative of the general southern Upper Egyptian population of the time.". And Keita's "southern tropical's" have a "greater number" exhibiting non "southern" i.e.: "northern-Egyptian-Maghreb and European patterns: hence: "the Abydos centroid value is explained primarily by the relatively greater number of crania with northern-Egyptian-Maghreb and European patterns in the series." So your very own source Keita employs the term European when discussing ancient Egyptian crania, and you both got caught lumping these European and other "non tropical" crania in with "tropical variants". You've made a desperate attempt in trying to equate Egyptians as "black" yet your own source liberally uses the term "European"!

Again, you have deliberately and intentionally misled the readers/observers of this thread by editing out and omitting key factors, in a blatant attempt to distort the information. Did you think no one would notice?!

In one breath, Keita remarks:"predominant craniometric pattern in the Abydos royal tombs is 'southern'" but in the next, "the Abydos centroid value is explained primarily by the relatively greater number of crania with northern-Egyptian-Maghreb and European patterns in the series."

Petrie bases his conclusions for "Sudanese origin" on a single statue, not human remains: "Petrie's (1939) interpretation of the Third Dynasty as having come from the Sudan is based on portraiture." (International Journay of Anthropology; 1995)

"Petrie (1939), discoverer of the type site (Petrie and Quibell,1896), believed the Naqada were non-Egyptians from the west." (Irish; 2006)

Again, this is another example demonstrating and exposing the nasty little charade "Taharqa" is guilty of. The constant omissions and deletions of pertinent information is a routine pattern with this user who so obviously has an agenda to push here and that agenda is to paint a distorted picture in agreement with a racist black supremacist ideology, not one based on facts or reality as obviously revealed here.

 

[Ramses II]

Random skim

I'd say that this must have either been the result of a very ancient back migration or there is indeed a possibility that R originated in Africa. I think that one way to test the latter out would be to test these African populations with these high frequencies of R for Neanderthal ancestry which according to recent studies all non Africans or people with non African ancestry have. If these results were to come back negative then geneticist would most definitely have to reconsider their proposal for the origins of R. Just my opinion though.

What's this^? A desperate attempt to hijack an European/Eurasian haplogroup?

The cooler climate and over-exploitation of resources led to the failure of the Pre-Pottery Neolithic in the Levant. Some Near Eastern farmers crossed Sinai into North Africa around 6,000 BC, taking sheep, goats, wheat and barley with them. That agro-pastoralist dispersal has been linked to subclades of the Y haplogroups E1b and R1b. It seems that these early farmers spread one branch of the Afroasiatic language family - African North Afrasian - which includes Ancient Egyptian, the Berber languages of North Africa and the Chadic languages of West Central Africa. There is a strong correlation between the Chadic languages and a subclade of R1b1 discovered by Fulvio Cruciani and colleagues, defined by marker V88. Its distribution suggests that it migrated south across the Sahara as the region gradually turned drier, leaving a pocket of V88 in what is now the Siwa oasis near the western border of Egypt.B.Arredi et al, Apredominantly neolithic origin for Y-chromosomal DNA variationin North Africa,American Journal of Human Genetics, vol. 75, no.2(2004), pp.338-45; F. Cruciani et al., Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages, European Journal of Human Genetics (2010)

"lineages belonging to Eurasian haplogroup R have been found in northern Cameroon and have been claimed to result from back migrations from Eurasia into Africa" (Cruciani et al. 2002).

"A remarkable finding of our study is the substantial number of individuals belonging to haplogroup R1b1* (5.2%). Surprisingly, it has been previously observed in northern Cameroon (40%) at high frequencies (Cruciani et al. 2002) and at lower frequencies in southern Cameroon (1.12%) (Cruciani et al. 2002), Oman (1%), Egypt (2%), and Hutu from Rwanda (1%) (Luis et al. 2004). The presence of this lineage in Africa has been claimed to be a genetic signature of a possible backflow migration from west Asia into Africa (Cruciani et al. 2002). Here we observe R1b1* in 12 Bantu-agriculturalist populations (ranging from 2% to 20%) and in two Pygmy individuals. A network of R1b1* haplotypes performed using STR data (fig. 2) shows two main clusters, without any population structure. Interestingly, the estimated expansion time for these haplotypes—7,000 years (SD 8,100)—precedes the time at which the Bantu expansion occurred. ... the common paternal lineages found in west Central African samples are essentially recent. Only traces of haplogroup A and basal E-M96 are found in both groups, but these haplogroups only account for 5% and 10%, respectively, in Pygmies and 0.5% and 1% in Bantu agriculturalists. This lack of ancient paternal lineages among west Central Africans suggests that the Bantu expansion erased most of the ancient diversity present in the region before the massive demic expansion. In addition, these results clearly indicate that the consequences of the Bantu expansion are more visible from the paternal side than from the maternal side, suggesting that the demic movements associated with the Bantu expansion involved more males than females. ...The presence of this haplogroup in the region is especially puzzling given that, according to the known Y-chromosome phylogeny (Underhill et al. 2000), the geographic origin of the R1b lineage is situated Eurasia and not in Africa. Its sporadic presence, although at low frequencies, in some African populations has been proposed to result from back migrations from Eurasia into Africa during ancient times." (Berniell-Lee; 2009)

"Although human Y chromosomes belonging to haplogroup R1b are quite rare in Africa, being found mainly in Asia and Europe, a group of chromosomes within the paragroup R-P25* are found concentrated in the central-western part of the African continent, where they can be detected at frequencies as high as 95%. Phylogenetic evidence and coalescence time estimates suggest that R-P25* chromosomes (or their phylogenetic ancestor) may have been carried to Africa by an Asia-to-Africa back migration in prehistoric times. Here, we describe six new mutations that define the relationships among the African R-P25* Y chromosomes and between these African chromosomes and earlier reported R-P25 Eurasian sub-lineages. The incorporation of these new mutations into a phylogeny of the R1b haplogroup led to the identification of a new clade (R1b1a or R-V88) encompassing all the African R-P25* and about half of the few European/west Asian R-P25* chromosomes. A worldwide phylogeographic analysis of the R1b haplogroup provided strong support to the Asia-to-Africa back-migration hypothesis. The analysis of the distribution of the R-V88 haplogroup in >1800 males from 69 African populations revealed a striking genetic contiguity between the Chadic-speaking peoples from the central Sahel and several other Afroasiatic-speaking groups from North Africa. The R-V88 coalescence time was estimated at 9200–5600?kya, in the early mid Holocene. We suggest that R-V88 is a paternal genetic record of the proposed mid-Holocene migration of proto-Chadic Afroasiatic speakers through the Central Sahara into the Lake Chad Basin, and geomorphological evidence is consistent with this view. ("Human Y chromosome haplogroup R-V88: a paternal genetic record of early mid Holocene trans-Saharan connections and the spread of Chadic languages Fulvio Cruciani 2010)

"An interesting finding is the presence of the non-African haplogroup R (including haplogroups R1b and R1*) in the Bantu population of the Fang." ("Insights into the Y Chromosome variation in central-west Africa")

"Men belonging to Haplogroup R1b are direct descendants of the Cro-Magnon people who, beginning 30,000 years ago, dominated the human expansion into Europe and heralded the demise of the Neanderthal species," Wells said. SYDNEY, February 4, 2010 (AFP)

"R1b1a is found in northern Cameroon in west central Africa at a very high frequency, where it is considered to be caused by a pre-Islamic movement of people FROM EURASIA." "A back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa is supported by high-resolution analysis of human Y-chromosome haplotypes."
"In January 2010, we published in this journal a report1 on the frequency distribution of the Y chromosome haplogroup R1b1a (R-V88) in Africa, where it can be found at frequencies as high as about 90%. This haplogroup (or its ancestor) most likely traces its origins back to Eurasia, but is presently found very rarely outside Africa." European Journal of Human Genetics 18, 1186-1187 (November 2010) | doi:10.1038/ejhg.2010.89

"The aim of the present work was to study the origin of paternal and maternal lineages in Guinea-Bissau population, inferred by phylogeographic analyses of mtDNA and Y chromosome defined haplogroups. To determine the male lineages present in Guinea-Bissau, 33 unrelated males were typed using a PCR-SNaPshot multiplex based method including 24 Y-SNPs, which characterize the main haplogroups in sub-Saharan Africa and Western Europe. In the same samples, 17 Y-STRs (included in the YFiler kit, Applied Biosystems) were additionally typed. The most frequent lineages observed were E1b1a (xE1b1a4,7)-M2 (68%) and E1a-M33 (15%). The European haplogroup R1b1-P25 was represented with a frequency of 12%. The two hypervariable mtDNA regions were sequenced in 79 unrelated individuals from Guinea-Bissau, and haplogroups were classified based on control region motifs using mtDNA manager. A high diversity of haplogroups was determined in our sample being the most frequent haplogroups characteristic of populations from sub-Saharan Africa, namely L2a1 (15%), L3d (13%), L2c (9%), L3e4 (9%), L0a1 (8%), L1b (6%) and L1c1 (6%). None of the typical European haplogroups (H, J and T) were found in the present sample of Guinea-Bissau. From our results, it is possible to confirm that Guinea-Bissau presents a typically West African profile, marked by a high frequency of the Y chromosome haplogroup E1b1a(xE1b1a4,7)-M2 and a high proportion of mtDNA lineages belonging to the sub-Saharan specific sub-clusters L1 to L3 (89%). A small European influx has been also detected, although restricted to the male lineages." (Carvalho et al; 2010)

They only tested five people for Neanderthal DNA. Two were Sub Saharan - a San and Yoruba. These hardly constitute as representative of all Sub Saharan Africans, let alone Africans in general.

 

[Ramses II]

Random skim

Post #32

"With that being said, recent genetic anaylsis postulate that J1 may have originated in East Africa/Ethiopia:"

You were singing a different tune in post #11- odd you didn't have any objection to Scheinfeldt when you quoted her:

"haplogroup J (M267) appears to have arisen in the Middle East over 20 kya and subsequently spread into northern Africa (38)." Scheinfeldt 2010"

J1 is a descendent of J which originated in the ME.


Other geneticists relate the same findings:

"According to this interpretation, the first migration, probably in Neolithic times, brought J-M267 [J1] to Ethiopia" (Semino et al; 2004)

"The origin of Haplogroup J maps to the Middle East around the ‘Fertile Crescent’ an area also known as the ‘Cradle of Civilization’" (Genebase.com 2010)

"Haplogroup J1 is a prevalent Y-chromosome lineage within the Near East. (Pereira; 2009)

J1 "a prevalant Y-chromosome lineage within the Near East... frequently found in the Caucasus and eastern Anatolian poopulations" (Chironi et al; 2010)

Looks like someone didn't do their homework.:snicker:

 

[Ramses II]

View attachment 5475View attachment 5474 View attachment 5476 View attachment 5477 View attachment 5478 Notice the broad African features of many of these of these pharaohs:

It's clear and conclusive that these ancient Africans were indeed "black". That's not to say that individuals from elsewhere (non African) were not in ancient Egypt, but what is clearly proven is that the populations base of ancient Egypt was of Afrasian and Nilotic (black African) origins.

Lovell has been debunked - as well as Keita concerning limb rations. See Raxter 2011.

But since you quoted Lovell...

“Certainly our data are not incompatible with the argument from Tishkoff et al. (1996) that an element of the contemporary Ethiopian population may be descendants of the ancestral population that spawned the migration out of Africa. We also argue, however, that in addition to this early bottleneck event, later periods of admixture have played a major role in shaping the gene pool of Ethiopia, and its populations display both Eurasian and Sub-Saharan genetic influences.” (Lovell et al)

“Ethiopia: between Sub-Saharan Africa and Western Eurasia.” (Lovell et al., Annals of Human Genetics 2005 69,275–287)

What I see, is a deliberately orchestrated attempt at replicating the same imagery, in addition, using unpainted wooden statues that darken over time as well as depending on the color of the rock employed, unpainted black basalt, as an attempt to claim Egyptians as "black" while the phenotypes say differently. Now for painted imagery:

 

[Ramses II]

Random skim

From post #38

I did not purposely try to mislead you or anyone else."

That's one hell of an understatement. All you've done is purposely mislead. Here are two more random examples I took the time to investigate, exposing the type games Afrocentrics such as "Taharqa" engage. They deliberately use snippets as seen below by "Taharqa" presenting a distorted view while ignoring the larger picture as it disagrees with their preconceived personal/racial views.

EXAMPLE #1: From "Taharqa's post #15

"a critical factor in the rise of social complexity and the subsequent emergence of the Egyptian state in Upper Egypt (Hoffman 1979; Hassan 1988). If so, Egypt owes a major debt to those early pastoral groups in the Sahara; they may have provided Egypt with many of those features that still
distinguish it from its neighbors to the east." Journal of Anthropological Archaeology 17, 97-123 (1998), "Nabta Playa and Its Role in Northeastern African Prehistory," Fred Wendorf and Romuald Schild.

Below, continuing from the last sentence (above) which "Taharqa" deliberately excluded:



"If so, Egypt owes a major debt to those early pastoral groups in the Sahara; they may have provided Egypt with many of those features that still distinguish it from its neighbors to the east. While tempting, this hypothesis must be viewed with caution. Many features which characterize the ceremonial aspects of the regional center at Nabta are as yet unknown in the Nile Valley. These include the megalithic alignments, the megalithic structures and worked table rocks, cattle burials in chambers built in stone-covered tumuli, and calendar circles. One of the fascinating aspects of the evidence for the working of large stones is that it seems to anticipate later Egyptian developments. If the Saharan people contributed significantly to the rise of complexity in the Predynastic, the precise nature of those contribution has yet to be defined."

Simple investigation shows "Taharqa's" own sources refute his contentions. And we already know, as stated in previous posts and based on the most recent data, Pastoralism originated in the ME, along with the livestock that accompanied it. Further, it would explain, who it was that brought it there - Nabta Playa had two distinct populations - yet you won't find Afrocentrics admitting such:

"Judging from the elaborate burials at the nearby cemetery at Gebel Ramlah about 20 km from Nabta Playa, the nomads associated with the ceremonial centre were prosperous and healthy, possessing a strong aesthetic sense and interested in preserving and honouring their dead.7,6,8 Since it is a rare opportunity
to learn about people associated with such an early ceremonial centre, it seems worthwhile describing these prehistoric herdsmen in some detail. The cemetery contained 67 individuals in both primary and secondary inhumations. The most reliable carbon date is from bone collagen giving us 4360 BC + 60 years. Inspection of dental features indicates that two different populations, Mediterranean and sub-Saharan, were represented in the cemetery." (Malville et al; 2007)

EXAMPLE #2 - from "Taharqa's" post #36

Later, stimulated by mid-Holocene droughts, migration from the Sahara contributed population to the Nile Valley (Hassan 1988, Kobusiewicz 1992, Wendorf and Schild 1980, 2001); the predynastic of upper Egypt and later Neolithic in lower Egypt show clear Saharan affinities. A striking increase of pastoralists’ hearths are found in the Nile valley dating to between 5000-4000 BCE (Hassan 1988). Saharan Nilo-Saharan speakers may have been initial domesticators of African cattle found in the Sahara (see Ehret 2000, Wendorf et. Al. 1987). Hence there was a Saharan “Neolithic” with evidence for domesticated cattle before they appear in the Nile valley (Wendorf et al. 2001). Keita and Boyce, Genetics, Egypt, And History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns Of Y Chromosome Variation, History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246

This is not one simple direct quote, but run-on sentences for which the reader has to discern who made these actual statements... hence the lack of quote marks attribted to their references. Wendorf is mentioned several times, but what's notable, Wendorf has been refuted and debunked, yet despite this, Keita deliberately
insists on using outdated, debunked information in attempts to mislead the public. Wengrow 2003 exposes Wendorf and Schild's dirty little deed:

"For over a decade now, the fieldwork of the Combined Prehistoric Expedition in Egypt’s south-western desert has been a source of heated controversy, owing to their claim for a local domestication of African cattle in this region during the Early Holocene. The main proponents of this view, Professors Wendorf & Schild, had their fingers badly burned during the 1980s over claims for local cereal domestication in the Late Palaeolithic Nile valley, which were based upon an intrusive sample, eventually exposed through their own scrupulous application of accelerator mass spectrometry dating."(Wengrow; 2003)

"A frequently quoted theory is Fred Wendorf's idea that some domestic bovids were living at Nabta Playa in the Egyptian Oriental Desert during the 7th millennium BC (Wendorf 1987, 1994), but it has been serverly questioned (Muzzolini 1989:9-10; Smith 1992:44). Not only does the latest synthesis published by Wendorf on
this topic not answer criticism, but it does not epound any new argument (Wendorf, Schild et al. 2002), and gives the impression that the facts have been somewhat adjusted to a still unproved hypothesis becoming less and less acceptable." (Wengrow 2003) (Le Quellec; 2006)

"Most authors agree that ovicaprids were domesticated more than 8000 years ago, then introduced into Africa from the Levant (Clutton-Brock 1993; Brewer et al. 1994:90; Camps 1998:15-16, Bradley et al. 1998:85; Hassan 2000:15; Luikart et al. 2001; MacHugh and Bradley 2001; Close 2002:69; Gautier 2002:201) ... It has often been said that domestic sheep and goats would have been introduced through the north of the Sinai, as this is the only terrestrial way towards the Nile Delta. Then they would have moved towards the west along the Mediterranean coast, as they are located at the end of the Libyco-Capsian at Haua Fteah in the Jebel el-Akhdar (Cyrenaica, Libya) around 6800BP." (Le Quellec; 2006)

"The archaeo-zoological records show the absence of continuity with the Late Acacus phase. This can be seen as an evidence of the external provenance of domestic ovicaprines, which were widespread in South-Western Asia while absent in Africa during all the Pleistocene. Bones of sheep and goats have in fact often been recovered between 7,300-7,000 years B.P. in a wide area, from the Red Sea to the Acacus itself (Di Lernia and Liverani 2004). Ovicaprines were probably introduced by Pastoral groups coming from East, who were forced to move westwards because of the increasing aridity in the North-Eastern regions of Africa, driven by the search of water and pastures." (Rickards; 2008)

Further, the last sentence has nothing to do with "Keita and Boyce, Genetics, Egypt, And History: Interpreting Geographical Patterns Of Y Chromosome Variation, History in Africa 32 (2005) 221-246" so why this is attributed to him is misleading. In "Taharqa's Keita 2005 quote (above), Keita cites Williams several times as some sort of "poof" of Egypts (debunked) southern origins yet even Williams has been refuted and debunked throughout the years by leading authorities on the subject:

"The A-Group civilization and adaptation of pharaonic imagery and use of Egyptian style royal titulary and possibly hieroglyphic symbols in connection with the kingship emerged full-blown in the Classi/Terminal period. The development of pharaonic iconography and symbols, and the hieroglyphic writing system is
firmly rooted in indigenous cultural and social processes in Egypt. There is thus no evidence to support the contention that the A-Group culture was the fount of the institutions of pharaonic kingship."(Wegner; 1996)

"with numerous slate palettes, mace heads, and stone vessels in the material culture of contemporary Egypt. There is no comparable corpus of stone in the material culture of the A-Group Nubians. The archaeological evidence further suggests that the Egyptians were responsible for the destruction and eventual dissappearance of the A-Group culture. This archaeologically suggested set of circumstances becomes difficult to reconcile if the Nubians of the period were the actual progenitors of pharaonic civilization, as initial interpretaions of the Qustul incense burner suggested. It is advisable, therefore, to regard this object as a royal Egyptian gift, sent to a chieftain of Qustul, in order to cement mercantile relationships between the two courts." (Bianchi; 2004)

"The scholar who published the tomb claimed that these distinctly royal elements predated evidence from Egypt and suggested that the idea of kingship originated in Nubia and then inspired Egypt. Later research showed, however, that the Qustul tomb was the same date as the Late Predynastic royal-style tombs of Egypt.
Because there is evidence of the processes that led to state formation in Egypt and not in Nubia, it is much more probable that Egyptian events influenced Nubia rather than the other way around." (Van De Mieroop; 2011)

And here, in the same paper "Taharqa" quoted from, Keita makes another deliberate attempt in trying to avoid the obvious by claiming Eurasian haplogroups as "African":

“It might be likely that the greater percentage of haplotypes called “Eurasian” are predominantly, although not solely, of indigenous African origin… Early hunting and gathering paleolithic populations can be modeled as having roamed between northern Africa and Eurasia, leaving an asymmetrical distribution of various derivative variants over a wide region, giving the appearance of Eurasian incursion.” (“Genetics, Egypt, And history: Interpreting Geographical Patterns Of Y Chromosome Variation” Keita, Boyce; 2005)

And that's how Keita skirts around the fact that Eurasians inhabited North Africa.

 

[Ramses II]

Another random skim

From post #27

This study seems to suggest that West African populations (Fulani) share a common allele with European. It should be interesting to note that the Fulani T-13910 predates the allele which is seen in Europe. Now what exactly does this have to do with a Middle Eastern origin for Afro-Asiatic?

That's another lie. The T-13910 gene does NOT "predate" that of Europe, and I'd like to see "Taharqa" provide us with a study stating such!

"The process by which pastoralism and agriculture spread from the Fertile Crescent over the past 10,000 years has been the subject of intense investigation by geneticists, linguists and archaeologists. However, no consensus has been reached as to whether this Neolithic transition is best characterized by a demic diffusion (with a significant genetic input from migrating farmers) or a cultural diffusion (without substantial migration of farmers). Milk consumption and thus lactose tolerance are assumed to have spread with pastoralism and we propose that by looking at the relevant mutations in and around the lactase gene in human populations, we can gain insight into the origin(s) and spread of dairying. We genotyped the putatively causal allele for lactose tolerance (–13910T) and constructed haplotypes from several polymorphisms in and around the lactase gene (LCT) in three North African Berber populations and compared our results with previously published data. We found that the frequency of the –13910T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan African populations. Our analyses suggest that contemporary Berber populations possess the genetic signature of a past migration of pastoralists from the Middle East and that they share a dairying origin with Europeans and Asians, but not with sub-Saharan Africans." (Myles; 2005)

"there is some evidence of shared recent ancestry (i.e., gene flow) between the Fulani and Eurasian populations based on the presence of particular mtDNA (J1b, U5, H, and V) (3) and NRY (R-M173) (4) haplogroups, and the T-13910 European-specific lactase persistence allele in the Fulani." Tishkoff et al 2011

In addition your source Scheinfeld 2010 states:

" In Europeans, the most common mutation associated with lactase persistence is thought to be a regulatory mutation located upstream of the gene that encodes LPH (a T at position -13910), within intron 13 of the neighboring MCM6 gene (56, 58). Further,this mutation is located within a large linkage disequilibrium block that is thought to have arisen ~20–2 kya, consistent with recent positive selection related to the emergence of cattle domestication and milk consumption ~10 kya in the Middle East(59, 60)."

 

[Taharqa]

1.You have no evidence, and your "common sense" has no standing. 1. The chart you provided places the supposed origin for Afro-Asiatic in East Africa, not Sub Sahara.

What does rather or not it's in "Sub Saharan" Africa have to do with anything? Are you insinuating that no black people live in Saharan or Northern Africa? Have you ever heard of the genocide of Darfur? Do you know where Darfur is, well it's not in "Sub Saharan" Africa. The Chadic speakers who Taranis and I are debating about not "Sub Saharan" African either. They are Saharan Africans and have been in the Sahara thousands of years prior to the conception of Egypt. Furthermore if you really want to get technical about where Ehret (the study's author) places the origins of Afro-Asiatic:

"Ancient Egyptian civilization was, in ways and to an extent usually not recognized, fundamentally African. The evidence of both language and culture reveals these African roots. The origins of Egyptian ethnicity lay in the areas south of Egypt. The ancient Egyptian language belonged to the Afrasian family (also called Afroasiatic or, formerly, Hamito-Semitic). The speakers of the earliest Afrasian languages, according to recent studies, were a set of peoples whose lands between 15,000 and 13,000 B.C. stretched from Nubia in the west to far northern Somalia in the east. They supported themselves by gathering wild grains. The first elements of Egyptian culture were laid down two thousand years later, between 12,000 and 10,000 B.C., when some of these Afrasian communities expanded northward into Egypt, bringing with them a language directly ancestral to ancient Egyptian. They also introduced to Egypt the idea of using wild grains as food." (Christopher Ehret (1996) "Ancient Egyptian as an African Language, Egypt as an African Culture." In Egypt in Africa Egypt in Africa, Theodore Celenko (ed), Indiana University Press)

The lands between Somalia and Nubia are in or on the boundaries of Sub Saharan Africa.

Most negroids don't speak Afro-Asiatic, but Niger-Congo, Nilo-Saharan and Khoisan click languages which for the most part developed after Afro-Asiatic.

Just wow! So are you seriously trying to denote the concept of race along what language a person speaks? Do even know what Omotic, Oromo, of Chadic (all Afro-Asiatic) speakers look like?

In addition, *even if* Egyptians supposedly originated in the region of Nubia, it doesn't explain why Egyptians spoke Afro-Asiatc while Nubians spoke Nilo-Saharan - so that contention is refuted

Considering the fact that there are an abundance of Nilotic loan words in the ancient Egyptian language (along with conclusive biological evidence) I'd be inclined to believe the well documented fact that Nilotic populations played an instrumental creating :the ancient Egyptian civilization. Rather or Egyptians and Nubians spoke the same languages, not negate the fact that both populations essentially biologically the same people:

The earliest southern predynastic culture, Badari, owes key elements to post-desiccation Saharan and also perhaps "Nubian" immigration (Hassan 1988). Biologically these people were essentially the same (Keita 1990).

Link

2. In addition, the chart you provided shows Caucasoid introgression into East Africa, which is supported by substantual genetic studies.

"Caucasoid introgression"...back to square one I see! The map by Ehret, showed that the back migration into the Ethiopia occurred, which was ultimately the result of the initial migration northward from the East African Afro-Asiatic homeland. Therefore I fail to see why the introduction of Semitic into Ethiopia, would matter at all in regards to the initial population source of ancient Egypt? Further more the introduction of Semitic was done without significant gene flow from the Middle East:

"These data, together with those reported elsewhere (Ritte et al. 1993a, 1993b; Hammer et al. 2000) suggest that the Ethiopian Jews acquired their religion without substantial genetic admixture from Middle Eastern peoples and that they can be considered an ethnic group with essentially a continental African genetic composition." (Cruciani, et. al Am J Hum Genet. 2002 May; 70(5): 1197–1214. "A Back Migration from Asia to Sub-Saharan Africa Is Supported by High-Resolution Analysis of Human Y-Chromosome Haplotypes)

Your point is therefore moot.

4. Your own quote debases the foundation of your "argument", it is, however, in complete agreement and compatable with what I've been sayng, E(M35) is a "non-African" haplotype

How could you possible conclude from that passage of the flawed Henn study, that haplogroup E originated outside of Africa? Wasn't it either you are your buddy who was just recently concerning the undeniable fact that E originated in Africa, and instead debating on if it was a back-migration from Egypt which created the biological continuum between Egypt and the Horn? As dubious as that argument was on his part, he at least had the common sense to not argue against the undeniable fact of haplogroup E's origins:

That is not a serious debate about haplogroup E at all. This origin and migration is what linguistic now link to the origins and spread of Afro-Asiatic.

It's only the map, which you posted, that's based on Ehret's paper which is outdated (2009) according to your own source, Scheinfeldt 2010.

Outdated seriously? Tell me what linguistic study supercedes it? Where in the Scheinfeldt study is a non African origin for haplogroup E ever postulated? You are reaching into thin air for conclusions that simply aren't there.

Of note, If E was a negroid haplogroup, which btw NO geneticist makes such a claim,

You are CORRECT, no modern geneticist is dumb enough to attribute a haplogroup to a social construct such as race. What are the Chadic speakers who are comprised on haplogrooup R...white? You are seriously losing all credibility with your racialization of everything from linguistic to haplogroups. I highly doubt that I'll give half of your this crap the time of day.