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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

  1. #226
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    Just a possible correction to the original post:
    The poet Xenophanes (around 400 BC) describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired.So they must
    have been very R1b, since red hair is recessive and needs both parents to have the red-gene, in order to show.
    This possibly makes them related to the nearby celts and illyrians, who possibly shared
    R1b-M269.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Just a possible correction to the original post:
    The poet Xenophanes (around 400 BC) describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired.So they must
    have been very R1b, since red hair is recessive and needs both parents to have the red-gene, in order to show.
    This possibly makes them related to the nearby celts and illyrians, who possibly shared
    R1b-M269.
    i read green eyed and red haired and obtained the red hair by buying females from the levant who had red hair.

    the thracians where very much into women for sale

    they where R1a in majority especially the northern ones.
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    i read green eyed and red haired and obtained the red hair by buying females from the levant who had red hair.

    the thracians where very much into women for sale

    they where R1a in majority especially the northern ones.
    an R1a population with red hair sounds a bit far fetched. Scotland has the highest proportion of redheads; and still only 13% of the population has red hair. And Scotland is 77% R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Just a possible correction to the original post:
    The poet Xenophanes (around 400 BC) describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired.So they must
    have been very R1b, since red hair is recessive and needs both parents to have the red-gene, in order to show.
    This possibly makes them related to the nearby celts and illyrians, who possibly shared
    R1b-M269.
    That population, or remnants of it exist even today in same area isolated as it can be by them but due to religion mixed with Non Thracian population recently, I have wrote about them in Threads about Thracians, they share typical genetical all of them about. but seems to have Green eyes as majority, and second the blue and brown. I have not a source, but they seem to be R1a population, with Arabian mix.
    the % of some East mediterenean heritage is strong among them, meaning that either happened what Zanipolo tell us about Levant women, either they came from south parts of Anatolia, I wonder if the had same mother land the one Tocharians had,
    and to be clear we speak about one the many Thracian tribes, not Paiones, Tribaldi and Odrysse, the ones we mainly think when we speak about Thracians,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
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    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

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  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Just a possible correction to the original post:
    The poet Xenophanes (around 400 BC) describes the Thracians as blue-eyed and red haired.So they must
    have been very R1b, since red hair is recessive and needs both parents to have the red-gene, in order to show.
    This possibly makes them related to the nearby celts and illyrians, who possibly shared
    R1b-M269.
    I would have thought "homogeneous R1b" people (if it ever existed) to be more Brownish (eyes and hairs); Fairness being more pre-indoeuropean. Just a guess based on actual geographical overlap between phenotypes and haplotypes.

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    I would have thought "homogeneous R1b" people (if it ever existed) to be more Brownish (eyes and hairs); Fairness being more pre-indoeuropean. Just a guess based on actual geographical overlap between phenotypes and haplotypes.
    The original Europeans most likely didn't develop fairness, since fairness seems to be prominent wherever the Indo-Europeans went.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    The original Europeans most likely didn't develop fairness, since fairness seems to be prominent wherever the Indo-Europeans went.
    I think Blondism has to do with Baltics, a blond woman was considered as an exotic fruit,

    The mania with Baltic R1a can be healed by discovering R1a pop of India, what fairness,
    simply in Europe, after the Danube they went North so they mixed with Blond female population of Baltic,
    even the red hair is a strange case cause seems to connected with Armenia and Romania than steppe people,

    consider that from ancient times to today blond women are considered as an exotic fruit,

    Some blond-lovers even make Alexander blond.

  8. #233
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    The mania with Baltic R1a can be healed by discovering R1a pop of India, what fairness,
    simply in Europe
    There are blondes in all places settled by Indo-Europeans, its just that they left the largest genetic print in sparsely populated places, such as Europe. India, Persia, and Anatolia were all ancient agricultural center which had vast populations. A few nomads couldn't have changed their average phenotype significantly, but you can still find some light featured individuals in those places, and especially if they are in the higher castes.

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    Blonde hair seemed to have originated around 11000 BC near the end of the last age, somewhere in europe around Lithuania. The gene spread through sexual selection supposedly, because men prefered blondes. Around 3000 BC it was the predominant color in northern europe. My opinion is that it spread really fast around 3500-3000 BC with the coming of the bronze age and metal weapons which intensify wars and population mixing.

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    Blonde hair seemed to have originated around 11000 BC near the end of the last age, somewhere in europe around Lithuania. The gene spread through sexual selection supposedly, because men prefered blondes. Around 3000 BC it was the predominant color in northern europe. My opinion is that it spread really fast around 3500-3000 BC with the coming of the bronze age and metal weapons which intensify wars and population mixing.
    That was the old theory, but the new ones suggest that it arose in the Eurasian steppe. Either Ukraine/South-Western Russia or Central Asia.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by kamani View Post
    Blonde hair seemed to have originated around 11000 BC near the end of the last age, somewhere in europe around Lithuania.
    If it happened 11k BC or later, then it is right. If blond hair happened during ice age then it had to be farther south around the ice belt, from France to Caspian sea. I do believe it was adaptation to climatic conditions, though I think that blond hair was a side effect of some genes associated with white skin and light eyes. Blond hair might have helped hunters to blend into terrain in winter, but not sure if it's a pig effect, otherwise all northern populations would have been blond already.
    So maybe Baltic climate is very specific. Sun is rather low most of the year and half days are cloudy and gloomy. They needed all the help they could get to produce vitamin D3. The same conditions might have existed around ice belt from France to Caspian sea during Ice Age. Farther in steppes in Asia climate is and was rather dryer and sunnier all year round. Therefore I don't think it happened in Central Asia. I think the proof of it is Mongol population. They received genes for blondism long time ago, but it didn't spread fast like around Baltic Sea. There are blond Mongols but few and between, and I'm not talking about albino mutation. Looks like the blond advantage is not there.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    If it happened 11k BC or later, then it is right. If blond hair happened during ice age then it had to be farther south around the ice belt, from France to Caspian sea.
    But north Siberia and north-central Russia was also ice free during LGM.

    I do believe it was adaptation to climatic conditions, though I think that blond hair was a side effect of some genes associated with white skin and light eyes. Blond hair might have helped hunters to blend into terrain in winter, but not sure if it's a pig effect, otherwise all northern populations would have been blond already.
    So maybe Baltic climate is very specific. Sun is rather low most of the year and half days are cloudy and gloomy. They needed all the help they could get to produce vitamin D3. The same conditions might have existed around ice belt from France to Caspian sea during Ice Age. Farther in steppes in Asia climate is and was rather dryer and sunnier all year round. Therefore I don't think it happened in Central Asia. I think the proof of it is Mongol population. They received genes for blondism long time ago, but it didn't spread fast like around Baltic Sea. There are blond Mongols but few and between, and I'm not talking about albino mutation. Looks like the blond advantage is not there.
    But true blondes can tan quite well compared to red haired and even some brunettes. I believe north Siberia an central Russia during LGM were less cloudy than regions closer to the ocean, but perhaps snowyer. In this case, bright hair and a moderate ability to tan during summer could represent an adaptation to such regions with much snow and varying sunshine (sunny summers).

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElHorsto View Post
    But north Siberia and north-central Russia was also ice free during LGM.



    But true blondes can tan quite well compared to red haired and even some brunettes. I believe north Siberia an central Russia during LGM were less cloudy than regions closer to the ocean, but perhaps snowyer. In this case, bright hair and a moderate ability to tan during summer could represent an adaptation to such regions with much snow and varying sunshine (sunny summers).
    I don't know exactly why blond is centered around Baltic Sea, but it is. It also has to be a reason why blond genes didn't spread around the globe in moderate to sub Arctic zone, if it is beneficial trait for these conditions. It tried for sure, because at least 4k years ago it reached China, as per Tarim Bay mummies. Knowing that blond genes are the recessive ones, we understand that they can't survive for too long (competing with black hair) unless they bring a strong survival advantage to the equation. Knowing these facts, it can point us to the clues and understanding why this blond mutation gave our ancestors survival advantage around Baltic sea, in spite of being a recessive trait from it's beginning.

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    I don't know exactly why blond is centered around Baltic Sea, but it is. It also has to be a reason why blond genes didn't spread around the globe in moderate to sub Arctic zone, if it is beneficial trait for these conditions. It tried for sure, because at least 4k years ago it reached China, as per Tarim Bay mummies. Knowing that blond genes are the recessive ones, we understand that they can't survive for too long (competing with black hair) unless they bring a strong survival advantage to the equation. Knowing these facts, it can point us to the clues and understanding why this blond mutation gave our ancestors survival advantage around Baltic sea, in spite of being a recessive trait from it's beginning.
    It could simply be because the Baltic was one of the most underpopulated areas of Europe, and therefore the influence of the recessive Indo-European light features were the most prominent there. The Baltic is also fairly flat. Compare that to Southern Europe which was already heavily settled by that time. Or compare it to places with rough terrain such as the Alps. Dark hair remained in both of those places dominant.

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    Surally, they must have moved into underpopulated Baltic area right after Ice Age. The question still stands, why these recessive blond genes took hold and survived till today, as majority, only in this area?
    Whole North around the globe was underpopulated 10,000 years ago, white hair should have had advantage in all these places. Till now most of North is dominated by black hair and eyes.

    One of the most interesting aspects of blond dominance in Europe north is how it really started. Was the change gradual, from Black to brown to red to blond? Maybe from brown to blond with blue eyes in one individual? If he was a prince he could have given the gene to hundreds of kids... Ney, most likely it was gradual accumulation of fairer skin, hair, eye genes till full blond.
    However it happened, it happened by natural selection. All individuals with whitest skin survived in greater numbers than darker siblings. And after many generations they were mostly blond.
    For this to happen it is important to live in right environment. So far all clues point into specific climatic conditions around Baltic Sea area. From top of my head I would say it is mostly cloudy, foggy area, it was mostly forested back then, and forest adds extra cover from the sun. It is in huge contrast with big open sunny steppes of Asia.

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    I'm R-L21 and my family is of Portuguese descent, do you know how this could be possible?

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    Dear Maciamo,

    Thank you for the very instructive post. I have question. How do you explain the origin of Bulgarians /Thracians. There are some more articles on the matter (I can not yet post them since I don;t have 10 posts).

    There is a theory stating that the Thracians (Pelasgans, Troyans etc) are the original population of the Balkans and their migrations are caused by the Black Sea flood (about 6500 BC).

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    Here is some copy paste:
    The approximate distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups among the Bulgarian people runs as follows:
    16% E1b1b
    1% G2a
    3% I1
    20% I2a (very common among South Slavic peoples)
    1% I2b
    20% J2
    1% Q
    18% R1a
    18% R1b
    1% T
    Here are mtDNA haplogroups found among Bulgarians:
    38% H (of which 10% are in the subclades H1 and H3 combined)
    10% J
    6.5% T
    20% U (of which 10% are in U3, 6.5% in U4, and 3.5% in U5)
    13% K
    6% X2
    6.5% other haplogroups

  19. #244
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    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by dimp View Post
    Here is some copy paste:
    The approximate distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups among the Bulgarian people runs as follows:
    16% E1b1b
    1% G2a
    3% I1
    20% I2a (very common among South Slavic peoples)
    1% I2b
    20% J2
    1% Q
    18% R1a
    18% R1b
    1% T
    Here are mtDNA haplogroups found among Bulgarians:
    38% H (of which 10% are in the subclades H1 and H3 combined)
    10% J
    6.5% T
    20% U (of which 10% are in U3, 6.5% in U4, and 3.5% in U5)
    13% K
    6% X2
    6.5% other haplogroups
    Ur data is really obsolete, there is now a big research based on 808 unrelated Bulgarians from all over the country- http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779
    [img]http://i.imgur.com/8JvdPDa.png[/img]
    Eupedia is also updated :) http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
    22% E1b1b
    5% G2a
    4.5% I1
    20% I2a (very common among South Slavic peoples)
    1.5% I2b
    10% J2
    0.5% Q
    18% R1a
    10% R1b
    1.5% T
    sounds more like it :)

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    You are correct but I could not post the link.
    But could you address mu question?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dimp View Post
    You are correct but I could not post the link.
    But could you address mu question?
    Well I guess Bulgarians have Thrachian, Slavic and some Bulgar,Celtic and Goth blood.
    Thrachians for me were E-V13,J2b2 and R1b-L23 with some E-M123,T and R1a
    Slavs were R1a and I2a with some T,J2b1 and E-V13
    Bulgars were R1a and J2a4h and J2b2 with some G2a,Q and N

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    Bulgars were R1a and I2a and...

  23. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by gyms View Post
    Bulgars were R1a and I2a and...
    I think ancient Bulgars were R1a,J2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Ur data is really obsolete, there is now a big research based on 808 unrelated Bulgarians from all over the country- http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779
    northern part of Sophia province, area around Sofia city, is the home of Serdi, Celtic tribe that got thracanized

    but the area has very little Celtic R1b
    Sophia province has 2.7% U152 and no other S116
    and the Sofia city (earlier Serdica) has 1.7% of U152 and 3.4% of other S116

    however it has, especially Sofia city area, elevated I2a-din and lowered E-V13 compared to nation average......of course part of this I2a-din may be due to modern Serbs, that are just across the border...but just across the border were also E-V13 Dardanians

    in any case this seems to support my theory that some of the Balkan Celts such as Serdi and Scordisci were probably not really R1b celtic but probably more I2a-din celtic... i believe that i2a-din was Celtic prior to becomming Slavic and in that respect Serdi may be the origin of modern Serbs....


    idea is that like free Dacians, also free Thracians went to north, in accordance with Russian primary chronicle that speaks of Danubian Slavs (and among them explicitly mentions Serbs and Croats) who moved to Vistula region due to spread of Roman empire.....

    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. O
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html




    since Dacians and Thracians were of same Venethi race (R1a people in my opinion with exception of I2a-din Serdi and Carpi), I think they made new tribal name "free Venethi" or Slobodni Venethi
    which was abbreviated with Slo-Veneti... the core of this tribe was surrounded with its border tribes Venedi and Anti (both names derived from words having meaning turn, end, border...first one in PIE, second one in iranian)




    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...irii-and-Hirri


    when thinking of Thracians in context of haplogroups above keep in mind that after Dacia and Thrace fall under Roman empire and some people left to north in order to stay free, the areas were also settled with people from other parts of Roman empire and influence areas of Greek tribes from south Thrace did enlarge...

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    According to the new Bulgarian study the highest frequency of I2a-Din is in north- eastern country.

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