Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

Much talk about Dorians and did you know that they never existed (because there is no evidence)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.

This forum is about genetics not only History talk just show me what DNA is Greek, Macedonian, Thracian and so on if not its just writing of own speculations like they had in ancient times and that is worthless as evidence.

You have written that you are Macedonian because of Haplogroup G but there is no such evidence today that can confirm your statement and why dont all Greeks have same DNA, if they are same people? The answer is simple Haplogroups have mixed before nations existed.

All can speculate about ethnicity but none can confirm with evidence. All people have the right to self-determination and that does not prove their original ethnicity (whatever that means) and who cares whatever you are when all people have same root.
 
Much talk about Dorians and did you know that they never existed (because there is no evidence)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.
ancient Macedonians are identified as Dorians by Herodotus...
 
What is Dorians a people or a country? Time to play your own game now HOW YES NO what about The Dorians are same as The tribe of Dan does this mean I have right about my statement?

Who have the right to identify other people and confirm or prove their ethnicity? Did not self-determination exist in ancient times, all got their peoples names by others?

Time to wake up.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryope

want more the burning of woods to warm new born jesus is also in greece, reach until thessaly, but orthodox church forbids it as non christian,
dryope means hole
dry the oak
oph is a hole but also something that let you see in
dryope would be same word as druid? this looks as Celtic tribe...

Dryopes
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dryopes or Dryopians (Ancient Greek: Δρύοπες) were a tribe of ancient Greece. According to Herodotus, they had once lived in a place called Dryopis (Δρυοπίς), later known as Doris.[1] They were driven out by the Malians (and supposedly Heracles), some of the refugees making their way to Ermioni.[2] Some also ended up at Styria in Euboea, Kynthos, and Asine in Messenia.[3] Later, Thucydides identifies Carystus as Dryopian, but nearby Styria as Ionian.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dryopes
could they in fact be Dorians?

about dorians
it happened in 800 BC after myrmidons, and makedonian
hercules son of temenos went north to find his people, to thessaly born makednos myrmidos etc
then his sons sons went back,
perhaps they were not really related to him but it was cool to live in Greece :)


Dorians named after Doris the city
besides Dory spear not dori comes from drys


1) if they were named by city they would be Dryopians? as that seems to have been the name of city before their arrival...

2) if Dryopians is same as Dorians, than they are celtic tribe?

we have seen on other threads that Strabo thought how Germans were original Celts...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362949&postcount=51

but we also saw that word German might have been related to word spear....
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362458&postcount=47

BUT YOU DID ANSWER ME ABOUT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

is any of these words similar to skopje people????????
I quess not
I cannot conclude anything based on several words....
but it seems Greek related and not Slavic related

note that tribes change languages much more easily than one would expect.... look at the latin... it was spoken only around small village called Rome, and now languages derived from it are spoken in whole Italy, france, Spain, Portugal, Romania, latin america...
point is that language tells us not much about ethnic origin of tribe and genetics suggests that ancient Macedonians or Dorians were quite different from other Greeks...


the 3 thracian approach has to do J I and E
were J2 exists we have greco-thrasian,
were I exist we have slavo-thracian
were E exists we have illyro-daco-thracian,
i Repeat that thracian is the same with Tyrrshenian ->thyrssenian rr-> thrysenian->1 thracian 2 phrygian

I am not convinced...thracians were separate people from Greeks... their language was not understandable by Greeks... from what I rememebr (not sure how credible source was) their language was satem PIE as today are Balto-Slavic and Albanian languages, and it did bear lot similarities with language of Balts, and few words common with Albanian
 
iapetoc answers to you by the expert about Macedonia if you missed it.

Skopians are people from Skopje (capital) and all are not skopians in Republic of Macedonia.
Just say and write Macedonia, Macedonian and get angry or jealous :)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza
Eugene N. Borza was a professor emeritus of ancient history at Pennsylvania State University. He has written many works on the ancient kingdom of Macedonia.




Published works
Eugene Borza

Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians?
(Abstract from a paper presented at the 1996 Annual meeting of the American PhilologicalAssociation http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html)
This paper seeks to illuminate the problems associated with determining the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (were
they Greek?), and to discuss the "reverberations" (to use the organizers' term) of that issue in modem times. While the
1971 OED may regard the use of the word "ethnicity" as obsolete, no adequate substitute for the word exists. Indeed,
part of the discussion in my paper will, following the lead of Loring Danforth in his recent The Macedonian Conflict.-
Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World (Princeton 1995), attempt to illustrate some principles by which the "ethnicity"
of the ancient Macedonians--and, perhaps, other ancient peoples--can be discussed in a coherent manner.

Among the questions asked as appropriate to a methodological model of determining ethnicity are:

I. What were a people's origins and what language did they speak? From the surviving literary sources
(Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides) there is little information about Macedonian origins, and the
archaeological data from the early period is sparse and inconclusive. On the matter of language, and despite
attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of the linguist R. A.
Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language
it was. But it is clear from later sources that Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court
of Alexander the Great. Moreover, the presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more
proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels
and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks.

II. Self-identity: what did the Macedonians say or think about themselves? Virtually nothing has survived
from the Macedonians themselves (they are among the silent peoples of antiquity), and very little remains in
the Classical and Hellenistic non-Macedonian sources about Macedonian attitudes.

III. What did others say about the Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information from
Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes),
based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two
languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded
the Greeks and Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by
considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility.

IV. What is the nature of cultural expressions as revealed by archaeology? As above we are blessed with an
increasing amount of physical evidence revealing information about Macedonian tastes in art and decoration,
religion, political and economic institutions, architecture and settlement patterns. Clearly the Macedonians
were in many respects Hellenized, especially on the upper levels of their society, as demonstrated by the
excavations of Greek archaeologists over the past two decades. Yet there is much that is different, e. g., their
political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments.

I will argue that, whoever the Macedonians were, they emerged as a people distinct from the Greeks who lived to the south and east. In time their royal court--which probably did not have Greek origins (the tradition in Herodotus that the Macedonian kings were descended from Argos is probably a piece of Macedonian royal propaganda)--became Hellenized in many respects, and I shall review the influence of mainstream Greek culture on architecture, art, and literary preferences.
 
What is Dorians a people or a country? Time to play your own game now HOW YES NO what about The Dorians are same as The tribe of Dan does this mean I have right about my statement?

Who have the right to identify other people and confirm or prove their ethnicity? Did not self-determination exist in ancient times, all got their peoples names by others?

Time to wake up.

Dorian and Dan do not sound to me as same tribal name...

I think that Makedon is not related to word Dan.... I believe it is related to Makeda/Sheba/Balkis who is mythical queen of Sheba,,,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba

besides Macedonians are dominantly I2a2 people as Serbs are, and thus their spread is not likely to have started from Israel in rather recent times... I have already talked a lot about proto-Serbs being mentioned by Seneca as Serians as there is clear match of spread of Serians with Caspian Serboi/Siraces, Pasthun Sarban, Serres of northwest China and Sheba/Sabeans of Red sea.... and as European Serians he relates to Danube area...


if you look for people who origin from lost Israelite tribe of Dan, you need to search for more recent arrival from middle east... perhaps Dardanians as
Doron(Hebrew & old Greek)/Dora (Greek - δώρο)/Dar (Slavic) + Dan = gift of Dan which could be interpreted as offspring of Dan
 
Are we talking about genetics or word matching?
What people think does not mean that is the right answer.

"The tribe of Dan also passed through this region, and the surrounding territory, leaving its name in Mace-DON-ia, and the Dar-DAN-elles, and to the north by the river DAN-ube. In the territory of Sarmatia (or Samaria, meaning the Israelites), were located the rivers DN-iper, DN-ister, and the DON."


The tribe of Dan

http://www.british-israel.ca/Dan.htm
When the 12 tribes of Israel actually took possession of the promised land, the tribe of Dan was allotted its tribal inheritance in the South Western area of that land.. Dan was situated west-Northwest of Judah; Dan's territory extended westward to the Mediterranean Sea, and included the busy port of Joppa, next to modern Tel-Aviv (Joshua 19:40-48).
Now the Danites migrated Northwards to Laish, and called the city Dan, after their father, see Judges 18. The northern city Laish, now called Dan, by the tribe of Dan, was about thirty miles inland from the ancient busy port of Tyre. Thus the ancient Danites must of had frequent contacts with the people of Tyre, which was in fact occupied by their brethren the tribe of Asher, see Joshua 19:29. So since their Israelite brothers occupied the land of Tyre, they had access to Tyre at anytime. These people of Tyre were a people of sea trade and navigation, see Ezekiel 27. These people built Tyre and Sidon on the Lebanese coast.
In the 1200's B.C., before Dan went to Laish, in a song commemorating a great Israelite victory, the Judge Deborah lamented that during the battle, the "men of Gilead stayed beyond the Jordan [River], and [asked] why DAN REMAINED IN SHIPS?" (Judges 5:17). The Danites were so preoccupied with the Sea and sea trade that they chose to remain in their ships than help their brethren. So even before the time they went to Laish, the Danites were already engaged in sea-faring activities.
J.C. Gawler quotes from the Chronicles of Ireland and says: "Again (p.123), 'The Danites ruled about two centuries until the arrival of the Milesians, which took place, 1000 years before the Christian era.' Thus the date of the arrival of the FIRST COLONY OF DANAANS WOULD BE 1200 B.C., or 85 years after Deborah and Baraks victory, when we are told Dan had ships...The early connection with Greece, Phoenician and Egypt is constantly alluded throughout the Chronicles [of Ireland] and records of the Irish Dannans" (Dan Pioneer of Israel, pp.30-31, emphasis added). After the first batch of Dannans left for Ireland, the remaining Danites migrated North 30 miles away from Tyre. These Danites that migrated North to Laish are the 3RD BATCH OF DANAANS THAT WENT TO IRELAND. These Danites worshipped Idol gods at that time, and brought them to Ireland, and Gawler points out, "The Psalter at Cashel says that the Tower of Tara [In Ireland] was built for the preservation of the fire of Baal, and was called Bel Theine...and that the mark of Phoenicia and Israel [was] Baal worship" (ibid., p.31).
What route did the first batch of Danaans take? Irish Historian Thomas Moore says that one of the earliest resident peoples of Ireland-the Firbolgs-were dispossessed by the Tuatha de Danaans, "who after sojourning for some time in Greece...proceeded thence to Denmark and Norway" (History of Ireland, vol.1, p.59) Then the Danaans proceeded to Ireland. So we see a time span of about 85 years, after Deborah, the judge of Israel uttered those words about Dan in ships!
The word "Tuatha" simply means "tribe"-"Tuatha...Irish history...A 'Tribe' or 'people' in Ireland"' (New English Dictionary on Historical principles, vol.10, pt 1, p.441). The word Dan means Judge in the Hebrew. "Dan [Heb "Judge"] shall Judge his people as one of the tribes of Israel" (Gen 49:16). "It is certainly no coincidence that the Irish Gaelic word Dun or Dunn means Judge..."' (America and Britain in Prophecy, Raymond McNair, p.25, emphasis theirs).
Another Irish Historian Geoffrey Keating mentions the SECOND BATCH of Danites of Judges 18, who were the THIRD BATCH OF DANAANS that went to Ireland AFTER THE MILESIANS, and he says: "...the Danaans were a people of great learning and wealth; they left Greece after a battle with the ASSYRIANS and went to Ireland; and also to Denmark, and called it 'DAN-mares,' Dans' country" (History of Ireland, vol.1, pp.195, 199, emphasis added). When the Assyrians attacked in the 8th century, the Danites of the promised land, left and joined their brothers in Ireland, who already settled there in different waves of immigration. They left to get away from the battle with Assyria.
The Encyclopedia Britannica tells us that the ancestor of the Danaans was "According to late Danish tradition...Juteland [mainland Denmark] was acquired by DAN, THE ANCESTOR OF THE DANES FROM WHERE THEIR NAME DERIVES (under article 'Denmark,' vol.8, 11th edition, emphasis added). Like the Danites of old, they named Denmark after their father Dan.

Testimony of Josephus, the Jewish Historian
Jewish Historian Josephus shows that the Lacedemonian (Spartans of Greece) were actually Danites, and therefore closely related to the Jews. Josephus relates an incredible letter from Sparta to Judah: "
"Jonathan the high priest of the Jewish nation . . . to the ephori and senate and the people of the Lacedemonians, send greeting:
"When in former times an epistle was brought to Onias, who was then our high priest . . . we have discovered that both the Jews and the Lacedemonians are of ONE STOCK, and are derived from the KINDRED OF ABRAHAM...concerning the KINDRED THAT WAS BETWEEN US AND YOU, a copy of which is here subjoined, we both joyfully received the epistle . . . because we were well satisfied about it from the SACRED WRITINGS, yet did not we think fit, first to begin the claim of this RELATION TO YOU, the glory which is now given us by you. It is a long time since this relation of ours to you hath been renewed, and when we, upon holy and festival days offer sacrifices to God, we pray to Him for your preservation and victory . . . . You will, therefore, do well yourselves to write to us, and send us an account of what you stand in need of from us, since we are in all things disposed to act according to your desires...This letter is foursquare: and the seal is an eagle, with a dragon [snake or serpent] in its claws" (Antiquities of the Jews, bk 12 chapter 4 sec 10; XIII, 5, 8, emphasis added).

The Lacedemonians received the Jewish ambassadors carrying the letter kindly and made a decree of friendship and mutual assistance with the Jews, and then sent the letter to their Lacedemonian kinsmen.
In Ancient Mythology, Bryant relates that Stephanus Byzantium shows that Alexander Polyhistor and Claudius Jolaus also speak of a direct relationship or kindship between the Spartan Greeks and the people of Judaea (vol.5, p.51-52, 60).

Dan -- A Serpent's Trail
Jacob prophesied that Dan would be a "Serpent by the way, an adder by the path," (Gen 9:16-17) meaning that he would leave a trail wherever he would go. In the Bible we have seen evidence of this naming everything after their father "Dan," see Joshua 19:47; Judges 18:12, 27-29. When the Danites migrated to Ireland, they left a trail of names throughout Europe. The city of Troy was located at the mouth of the Bosporus DarDANelles. From their they migrated into Europe and left names all over and into DANmark and Norway.
In Hebrew there are no vowels, so the name Dan is written DN, or its Hebrew equivalent. Thus words like Dan, Din, Don, Dun, Den, or Dn, correspond to the name of Dan.
Just west of the Black Sea, ancient geographers designated a region by the name of Moesia, which means the land of the "Moses-ites." These people revered a person whom they called Zal-moxis. "Zal" significes "chief," so this person, "chief Moxis" or "leader Moxis" was actually "chier MOSES," the man of God who led Israel to the promised land, and whom these people remembered as their original leader. The tribe of Dan also passed through this region, and the surrounding territory, leaving its name in Mace-DON-ia, and the Dar-DAN-elles, and to the north by the river DAN-ube. In the territory of Sarmatia (or Samaria, meaning the Israelites), were located the rivers DN-iper, DN-ister, and the DON.

Professor Totten declares:
"There is no grander theme upon the scrolls of history than the story of this struggle of the Anglo-Saxons westward. The very streams of Europe mark their resting places, and in the root of nearly all their ancient names (Dan, or Don) recall the sacred stream Jor-dan river of rest-- from whose whose hands, so far away, as exiles, they set out. It was either the little colony of Dan, obeying its tribal proclivity for naming everything it cap- turied (Jud.18:1-29) after their father, or else the mere survival of a word and custom; but, none the less, it serves to TRACE these wanderers LIKE A TRAIL. Hence the Dan-ube, the Dan-ieper, the Dan-iester, the Dan-au, the Daci and Davi, the Dan, the Don, the U-Don, the Eri-don, and the THOUSAND OTHER Dans and Dons of ancient and early geography, down to the Danes in Dan-emerke, or 'Dan's last resting place'" (quoted in Allen, Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright, p.263-64).
Denmark, the name of the modern country in Europe north of Germany, means, literally, "Dan's mark." It's people are called "Danes." In fact, because at one time Denmark ruled all the surrounding region, the whole region took its name from them the ScanDINavian peninsula! Clearly, here are remnants of the people of DAN, who migrated westward overland from the Caucasus to their present location in northern Europe!
However, other Danites, who dwelt or abode in ships, and who associated themselves with the sea peoples of Tyre and Sidon, fled westward through the Mediterranean when northern Israel fell. Early Danites fled Egypt migrated through SarDINia, and left their trail along the sea-coasts of the Mediterranean. Thus Dan, who was a "lion's whelp" who would "leap from Bashan," leaped all the way to Ireland, where historians explain that the early settlers were known as the "Tuatha de Danaan" -- literally, the "tribe of Dan." The Greeks called them the Danoi, the Romans called them Danaus.
In Ireland, today, we find their customary evidence -- their place names -- in abundance. Such names as Dans-Lough, Dan-Sower, Dan-Monism, Dun-dalke, Dun-drum, Don-egal Bay, Don-egal City, Dun-glow and Lon-don-derry, as well as Din-gle, Dun-garven and Duns-more, which means "MORE DANS." Of course, the most famous Irish ballad of all time is the song, "Danny Boy." It should be plain that the country of Ireland is replete, filled with names which derive from the ancient patriarch of the Hebrews -- DAN, the son of Jacob! It should be plain that the ancient Danites settled in Ireland, and most of them dwell in that land, today.

Conspiracy Topics
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread348619/pg1
Historically the philistines, the Babylonians and Persians conquered the land of Canaan which the Hebrew people called Israel, the Hebrew tribes of Manesseh and Dan joined forces and became the Macedonians or Macedanians (Manasseh + Dan = Macedanians) they wore white kilts like the Egyptian pharaohs, played goat skinned bagpipes, adopted the Greek culture and settled along the River Danube which they named after the tribe of Dan.
THE EMPIRE OF "THE CITY" (World Superstate)
Part 1 http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...77383139148549#
Part 2 http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...43376785758889

“The Viking long boat called Drakur flew the red and white striped flag, and even that the motif can be traced further back to the Tribe of Dan.”


http://www.britam.org/dan.html
THE SYMBOLS OF DAN STILL USED TODAY!
Danes from the Israelite Tribe of Dan invaded Denmark at about the same time as the Naphtali moved in large numbers into Norway. The Tribe of Dan was represented by a snake or by a lion. Other accepted symbols of Dan were a pair of scales, an eagle, and a dragon. Many members of Dan settled in Denmark, in Ireland, in Wales, England, and the U.S.A. where 40-50 million people have Irish ancestry. The symbol of a snake was once worshipped in Ireland; a lion represents Denmark and England, Wales has a dragon on its flag, and the U.S.A. has an eagle.
Tribal Identification: Dan

Lion is also a Macedonian symbol (ancient and present) the other is the sun and so is the colours red and white (not on flag but for traditional macedonian folk dress).
And ofcourse this is no proof because many other use red and white colours (flags and symbols) and the lion.
 
Are we talking about genetics or word matching?
What people think does not mean that is the right answer.
both... read my other messages...

Serbs and Macedonians are dominantly I2a2 people
known Serboi/Siraces locations have clearly elevated haplogroup I
Pastun Sarbans are perfect trace of haplogroup I in not haplogroup I area...
area where Seres lived in northwest China shows clear trace of haplogroup I as well

I.png



Israel people are not I2a2... Jews are dominantly E, J1, J2 mix which is more similar to Albanians and Greeks (previously known under tribal names respectively Dardanians and Danaans (Δαναοί))

=> Macedonians are not descendents of tribe of Dan
they are related to Serians...

and Serians of Red sea are Sheba with their mythical queen who was known as
Sheba/Makeda/Balkis

which I think subsequently gave: Serbia/Macedonia/Balkan

Makeda being her name in south parts of her country (same as Macedonia is south of Serbia), and Balkis being her name in Arabic islamic tradition, which is the reason area got name Balkan during the rule of Arab influenced Ottoman empire

btw. Bulgars might be related people, as their tribal name may origin from Balkis
 
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...p+I+the+tribe+of+dan&cd=7&hl=sv&ct=clnk&gl=se

The YDNA groups


All other YDNA groups from G to R2 are derived from one central Haplogroup F. This F group is central to both Shem’s and Japheth’s known lineages. We will start with Lineage F, which is P14, M89, M213. This line is the basic line for G, H, I, J, and K.

We know that the lineages in known Semitic nations are G, I and J. There are also some lineages of E3b African or Hamitic lineages together with some R1a and R1b. These lineages with G also spread to Turkey, Georgia/Armenia and Italy.

Conventional wisdom identifies the Middle-East Arabs as Haplogroup J and the Jewish Aaronic priesthood, which has an identified clear lineage to Shem, is at J2. This Haplogroup division identifies also the Buba clan of the Lemba tribe of Zimbabwe as Aaronic priests, and they have been separated from the rest of Judah/Levi for up to 2,500 years. Thus the J2 division is at least as old as that separation.

There are also a significant number of divisions in Judaism that show that Judaism is a religion and not a single Haplogroup lineage.

For example, whilst the Aaronic priesthood is identified as J2, the Levitical structure of Ashkenazi Jews are 52% R1a1, which is an identified Japhethite lineage occurring in Russia and the Central and Eastern Steppes and among the Aryans in India. It is Slavic. Also, 25% of all East European Jews are E3b, which indicates an Hamitic origin.

One hypothesis concerning the E3b origin is that Egyptians interbred with the Israelites. Another is that the Mixed Multitude involved E3bs, as there were some two million Israelites and approximately six hundred thousand of the Mixed Multitude. That would constitute 25%. However, when we read the genetic accounts of the Milesians they claim to have been part of the mixed multitude also in the Exodus. They are R1b. Thus, the explanation must involve later conversions to Judaism from Hamitic lineages. We find these in the occupation of Canaan under Joshua.

Canaan was a son of Ham and a number of sub-tribes were spared and joined Israel in some cases by subterfuge. The Ethiopian conversions were also of significance and so we have ample explanation for the E3b lineages at 25% of the Ashkenazim. The Amorites and the Southern Hittites also entered and bred with Israel. There are also significant levels of E3b in Syria, Turkey and among the Greeks at up to 30%. The Greeks are up to 30% Haplogroup J or known Semites also with up to 20% Hg I as well, which is also a prevalent Haplogroup among both known Semites and Europeans.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites
The Israelites were a Hebrew-speaking people of the Ancient Near East who inhabited the Land of Israel during the monarchic period (11th to 7th centuries BC).
The 11th century BC comprises all years from 1100 BC to 1001 BC. Although many human societies were literate in this period.
The 7th century BC started the first day of 700 BC and ended the last day of 601 BC.

Macedon/Macedonia:
The lands around Aegae, the first Macedonian capital, were home to various peoples. Macedonia was called Emathia (from king Emathion) and the city of Aiges was called Edessa, the capital of fabled king Midas. According to legend, Caranus, accompanied by a multitude of Greeks came to the area in search for a new homeland took Edessa and renamed it to Aegae. Subsequently, he expelled Midas and other kings off the lands and he formed his new kingdom. According to Herodot, it was Dorus, the son of Hellen who led his people to Histaeotis, whence they were driven off by the Cadmeians into Pindus, where they settled as Macedonians. Later, a branch would migrate further south to be called Dorians.
It seems that the first Macedonian state emerged in the 8th or early 7th century BC under the Argead Dynasty, who, according to legend, migrated to the region from the Greek city of Argos in Peloponnesus (thus the name Argead). The Macedonian tribe ruled by the Argeads, was itself called Argead (which translates as "descended from Argos").

When the destruction of Israel, c.722 BCE occurred, a nation was born named Mace-don (people from the tribe of Dan)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midas
Midas or King Midas (in Greek Μίδας) is popularly remembered in Greek mythology for his ability to turn everything he touched into gold. This was called the Golden touch, or the Midas touch. He bears some relation to the historical Mita, king of the Mushki in Western Anatolia in the later 8th century BC.
There are some different accounts of Midas' life. In one, Midas was king of Pessinus, a city of Phrygia, who as a child was adopted by the king Gordias and Cybele, the goddess whose consort he was, and who (by some accounts) was the goddess-mother of Midas himself. Some accounts place the youth of Midas in Macedonian Bermion (See Bryges) In Thracian Mygdonia, Midas was known for his garden of roses: Herodotus remarks on the settlement of the ancient kings of Macedon on the slopes of Mount Bermion "the place called the garden of Midas son of Gordias, where roses grow of themselves, each bearing sixty blossoms and of surpassing fragrance". In this garden, according to Macedonians, Silenos was taken captive. According to the Iliad (V.860), he had one son, Lityerses, the demonic reaper of men, but in some variations of the myth he instead had a daughter, Zoë or "life".

When you talk about people or countries of today or antiquity its almost impossible to tell if they where same because of similar culture, language, genetics and more. All people with same religion, language and nation are not based on to exist because of same genetics.

Israeli peoples (modern or ancient) are not haplogroup I?
Can you really prove your statement about the origin of the Israelites and others like Macedonians and what genetics they had or have?
Then you will get the Nobel prize.
 
bunch of nonsense
For example, whilst the Aaronic priesthood is identified as J2, the Levitical structure of Ashkenazi Jews are 52% R1a1, which is an identified Japhethite lineage occurring in Russia and the Central and Eastern Steppes and among the Aryans in India. It is Slavic. Also, 25% of all East European Jews are E3b, which indicates an Hamitic origin.

Ashkenazi Jews have a lot of R1a not because of Israel descend but because they origin from Hazar state that was north of Caucasus... Hazar state took Jewish religion in order to be able to trade both with Christians and muslims...
only small part of them have origin of original Jews...

Magyars are for instance also very R1a
as were Scythians in past...

besides I do not think early Slavs were R1a
early Slavs were by Jordanes mentioned as race of Veneti, and I have shown elsewhere that Veneti were likely I2a2 people

besides take a look at spread of I2a2 and spread of early Slavs. Directions of spread are identical...

483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg

Origins_500A.png

Haplogroup_I2a.gif


R1a doesnot show anything alike to the location and directions of spread of early Slavs...
R1a in Slavic countries are thus assimilated Scythians and Sarmatians whose tribal unions were broken by set of previous invaders and whose remains have joined early Slavs... btw. according to Klyosov R1a origins from Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia as R1a is ancient old there and much younger elsewhere...
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites
The Israelites were a Hebrew-speaking people of the Ancient Near East who inhabited the Land of Israel during the monarchic period (11th to 7th centuries BC).
The 11th century BC comprises all years from 1100 BC to 1001 BC. Although many human societies were literate in this period.
The 7th century BC started the first day of 700 BC and ended the last day of 601 BC.
When you talk about people or countries of today or antiquity its almost impossible to tell if they where same because of similar culture, language, genetics and more. All nations are not based on to exist because of same religion, language, genetics etc.
Israeli peoples (modern or ancient) are not haplogroup I?
Can you really prove your statement about the origin of the Israelites and others like Macedonians and what genetics they had or have?
Then you will get the Nobel prize.


if first mention is really in 12th or 11th century BC that might mean they origin from sea peoples (same as Palestines probably origin from Pelast sea peoples who are likely Pelasgians)...Thus, tribes of Dan of Israel were just Denyen sea peoples who were just early Greeks participating in sea peoples conquest....

note that first historic mention of Sheba kingdom is related to 11th century as well and might be related to Sherdana sea people who left toponym Serboinian bog in Egypt...

so, sea peoples might have been set of different Balkan and Asia minor nations
e.g. Sherden being proto-Serbs (Serians), Lukka being Lycian, Pelast Pelasgian, Denyen being Greeks or tribes of Dan, Tjekker being Trojans (Teucer)....... and Israelites could be Denyen and some other sea peoples tribes mixed with local population...
 
.. Hazar state took Jewish religion in order to be able to trade both with Christians and muslims...


Agreed. The Khazars desired monotheism for that and other reason but did not want to be subordinate to either the Caliphate or the Byzantine Emperor. Judaism allowed the monotheism they wanted which also gave them more credibility as non-pagans but ensured that they could be independent.
 
I wanted to enter an answer but this application don't let me. So I can't write any more. Thank You.
 
Just link to your statements, I want to know what the white DNA is, never heard about it before.

Summary:

1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times. (no link)

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years. (no link)

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA. (no link)

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA. (no link)

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors." (no link)
 
Dejavu you don't even know who Karamos was and what means,
if i ask you etymology of Perdikas or Ptolemy surely you will not know,

when you understand that Greeks are 1 from IE and 2 From Anatolian 3 From balkan population then speak again,

the existance of Dorians is written in many places, as also the existance of Dryopes,

How yes no it is not only Serbia but Greece also in Christmas time they Burn Oak trees,
Dryopes or Druids lived also in west Europe, not only in slavic

the most clear evidence of Dorians is the city of Doris Δωριδα,
remember that Athens was not an IE city, and Dorians were in hostility with Athens,

from anciety Greeks claim some lands, and some tribes,
officially Greeks never claim skopje as Makedonia
well I will not let you to create a quatrolingual state, or quatroethnic state just to satisfy a treaty of ottoman invaders, or to create a nation to satisfy roman invaders,
Skopje was capital of Dusan Serbia,
Strumnitsa was and is mainly Bulgarian people,
Tettovo is mainly Albania

where did you find the Mc-Donaldians?
in a treaty paper?
well that paper is bullshit when it comes to blood.
Nations are not created by Geographical terms, but with memory, blood, etc,

As long as 1 real makedonian exist not you not any power will force us to accept Turkish or Roman or Russian plans,

Try to say that Makedonia in 1900 was also inhabited by Serbs and Bulgarians, that is True than your bullshit,
even in your people numbers by ottomans no MC-Donaldian is mentioned
what happened, the Turks create a state with out ethnic MC-Donalds?

so even Turks did not know about MC-Donaldians at 1900,
only you know them,

it more possible for Makedonia to be Serb or Bulgarian, than MC-Donaldian


Besides I never connect Israelites with Greeks,
the only connection are the 2 minoan cities,
Avaris and Tel-Kabri

the Greeks from the Pelasgian Cadmeian branch are same people with Kittion (cyprus pre IE) ancient Illyrians, Phillistines, Trojans, Etruscans,
the IE branch of Greeks for me is under discuss,
probably R1a as found in Thracian tombs,
the case of pelasgians be connected with pre-semetic Ungarit is open,
as also with Hattic Hattianσ

t
he connection of Ιων with Ιαυαν is obvius but from different eyes,

1 Ιων exists and has lands in Greek Islands, another Genealogy,
2 Ιαυαν exists and has lands the islands among Tharseis (thracians or Thyrrsenians)

Both share same data, but different Genealogy??

lets see Titan Iapetus where worshiped.

Pausanias 8.17.25
Arcadia Peloponese
Argonautika 1.1120
Anchiale - Parthenia (Taursus)

Arcadia - ArcadoCypriot people,
Killikia (Taursus) North of Cyprus
either you see with Hebrew eye,
either with Greek Eye
Iων is the same Father,son of Iapetosor Hellenasbut dwell the islands among tharseis
 
if first mention is really in 12th or 11th century BC that might mean they origin from sea peoples (same as Palestines probably origin from Pelast sea peoples who are likely Pelasgians)...Thus, tribes of Dan of Israel were just Denyen sea peoples who were just early Greeks participating in sea peoples conquest....

note that first historic mention of Sheba kingdom is related to 11th century as well and might be related to Sherdana sea people who left toponym Serboinian bog in Egypt...

so, sea peoples might have been set of different Balkan and Asia minor nations
e.g. Sherden being proto-Serbs (Serians), Lukka being Lycian, Pelast Pelasgian, Denyen being Greeks or tribes of Dan, Tjekker being Trojans (Teucer)....... and Israelites could be Denyen and some other sea peoples tribes mixed with local population...
I would agree with most of what you say allthough I'm mot sure about the Serbian origin of Sherdens. Most propably they were Anatolians too (from Sardeis of Asia Minor).
DejaVu on the other hand is really messed up...mixxing Bible with science is allways misleading.
 
I would agree with most of what you say allthough I'm mot sure about the Serbian origin of Sherdens. Most propably they were Anatolians too (from Sardeis of Asia Minor).
DejaVu on the other hand is really messed up...mixxing Bible with science is allways misleading.

There is absolutely no link between the Shardana/Sherden and the Serbians. We're talking about ~1700 years between the Bronze Age Collapse and the first mentioning of the Slavic peoples in Byzantine sources. It's like saying Americans came originally from Aremorica. It just makes no sense.

It's just wishful thinking by how-yes-no.
 
First of all I would like to congratulate the forum and the sight for the quality and quantity of information provided. It is extremely difficult and "hazardous" to combine history with genetics in the age of nationalism; so my wish to you is "keep up the good work".
At this point I d like to post three questions:
1. Apart from the Pelasgians and the Dorians, is there any information on the Ionians?
2. Can the E1b1b haplogroup be related to the Pelasgians?
3. Is there a genetic similarity of modern Greeks to the people that inhabited the peninsula at 500BC?
Thanks in advance for your time
 
I just wanted to say thank you so much for all of the excellent information. I have copied part of it into the network I run for rhesus negative people. Many of us believe that the rhesusnegative blood factor is a trait coming through from the neanderthals who did not extinct but rather mix with other homo species around 300,000-30,000 years ago. About 4% of the european dna matches with theirs. would love to get some additional information from you if you have it. here is how far I have gotten with myresearch> rhesusnegative.net/work/comparative-table-of-homo-species/


Were the Neanderthals more intelligent than we are?


Thanks again for all your work.


~ Michael Dammann
Rhesus Negative Network
 
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J2a4b1

J2a4b1 M92+ M67+ M304+ M172+ M99- M68- M62- M47- M390- M369- M368- M367- M365.2- M339- M327- M267- M205- M166- M163- M158- M137- M12- M102-


Our family goes back till 1375 in Holland (archive work and DNA tested)
We also know we most came here by the romain army. BUT from what part (country) meaning Old Greece / Italy or Spain?
I already find out that the haplo J2a4b1 is not there in Spain so it most be from Greece or Italy?!
Who can help me


William
 

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