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Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

  1. #401
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    I read in eupedia that Ev13 was part of bronze age elite warriors. Then how is it today strongly ethnic alban!? And to the other hand, the Neolithic farming haplogroup G is almost absent in Albanian ethnic population. In alban Ghegs of Kosova the EV13 go more then 45% , while the 'G' is nearly zero

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    I read in eupedia that Ev13 was part of bronze age elite warriors. Then how is it today strongly ethnic alban!? And to the other hand, the Neolithic farming haplogroup G is almost absent in Albanian ethnic population. In alban Ghegs of Kosova the EV13 go more then 45% , while the 'G' is nearly zero
    The G2a disappeared all over Europe: y dna haplogroups come and go with big migrations. In big migrations, particularly, but not only if male mediated, the newcomers ensure one way or another that they have more reproductive "success". That's the way of it whether we like it or not.


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  3. #403
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The G2a disappeared all over Europe: y dna haplogroups come and go with big migrations. In big migrations, particularly, but not only if male mediated, the newcomers ensure one way or another that they have more reproductive "success". That's the way of it whether we like it or not.
    From here in Eupedia it says that Neolithic farmers were mostly G2 from what comes out from Neolithic sites. Ev13 it's almost not shown up from these Neolithic sites. Why Albanians have almost nothing G2? They must have some few. Actually we have G2 in Europe in isolated areas where the Neolithics got hidden from the IE warriors. There is a big gap between Ev13 and G2 in ethnic Albans. It doesn't fit to the logic

  4. #404
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    Eupedia also says that Ev13 was an important part of IE warriors , whom spread in many parts of Eurasia in a short time, whether R1b or R1a.

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    y-DNA in Europe was getting replaced frequently. Groups were invaded, the men all killed and the boys enslaved and treated so badly that most didn't make it to adulthood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    From here in Eupedia it says that Neolithic farmers were mostly G2 from what comes out from Neolithic sites. Ev13 it's almost not shown up from these Neolithic sites. Why Albanians have almost nothing G2? They must have some few. Actually we have G2 in Europe in isolated areas where the Neolithics got hidden from the IE warriors. There is a big gap between Ev13 and G2 in ethnic Albans. It doesn't fit to the logic
    If you search this forum for "blood type", "rhesus negative" or "rh negative", you will probably see my posts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piro Ilir View Post
    What type of J2 were Mycenaeans?
    https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2017...nd-mycenaeans/

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    As for the Welsh pockets of E-V13, Wales was for thousands of years a famous mining area. I would think the more parsimonious explanation is that it's some founder effect in an isolated area from the Atlantic Bronze Age
    You could be right, at least partly, but I notice that on the 'Genetic History of the British & Irish' page here on Eupedia the highest rates of E1b generally are found in Cumbria and the East Midlands. I recall reading that there was a small-but-influential Greek population in Roman Luguvalium, modern-day Carlisle, whilst the East Midlands had a number of Roman towns and settlements (including those that became Lincoln and Leicester) which are roughly equidistant between York and London on 'Ermine Street', whilst also being proximate to the Fosse Way. I'd say that a good percentage of the E1b in Britain arrived in the Roman era.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
    You could be right, at least partly, but I notice that on the 'Genetic History of the British & Irish' page here on Eupedia the highest rates of E1b generally are found in Cumbria and the East Midlands. I recall reading that there was a small-but-influential Greek population in Roman Luguvalium, modern-day Carlisle, whilst the East Midlands had a number of Roman towns and settlements (including those that became Lincoln and Leicester) which are roughly equidistant between York and London on 'Ermine Street', whilst also being proximate to the Fosse Way. I'd say that a good percentage of the E1b in Britain arrived in the Roman era.
    That would be interesting. Are they Roman and Greek subclades?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    That would be interesting. Are they Roman and Greek subclades?
    I'd also like to know!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcuin View Post
    I'd also like to know!
    Guaranteed most E1b in the British Isles are V13 but there is a small pocket of E81 in Northern Wales:

    IMG_2329.JPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The G2a disappeared all over Europe: y dna haplogroups come and go with big migrations. In big migrations, particularly, but not only if male mediated, the newcomers ensure one way or another that they have more reproductive "success". That's the way of it whether we like it or not.
    This is not true. Look at the core of Europe, like Switzerland, Austria, or in Romania where barbarian hordes have passed again and again.

  12. #412
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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    This is not true. Look at the core of Europe, like Switzerland, Austria, or in Romania where barbarian hordes have passed again and again.
    I have no idea to what you're objecting.

    You don't think G2a levels drastically decreased? That is a fact.

    In Europe first we had C, then I, then G2a, then resurgence of some I2a, then huge increases of R1b and R1a. At some point E appeared, which got lucky and expanded quite late.

    Now, either they killed the "native men" whom they encountered or they just made them less likely to reproduce by elite dominance.

    This is all the consensus. If you're going to downvote statements about it and post that you disagree then produce your evidence by citing ancient dna and the population genetics academic papers.

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    Sorry. But is not true that "The G2a disappeared all over Europe" But are spread now all over, even in... Italy :) or in China. Is it right ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    Sorry. But is not true that "The G2a disappeared all over Europe" But are spread now all over, even in... Italy :) or in China. Is it right ?

    "Disappeared" may have been hyperbole, but G2a went from being the majority haplogroup to being a few percent in some countries. Where "farmer" ancestry wasn't as decimated, as in Italy, the percentages are higher, but nowhere near where they were.

    You also have to look at sub-clades.

    A G2a line was picked up by the Indo-Europeans and absorbed by them, so that complicates matters. In northern Italu for example, as in Germany, a lot of the G2a is of this variety, so it doesn't invalidate the claim of replacement. It was spread by Indo-European groups.

    Also, in southern Italy, in particular, much of the G2a may have come from Anatolia in the Bronze Age, so again it's replacement 5-6,000 years ago.

    Of the G2a sub-lineage carried by the ancient farmer Otzi, for example, there's almost none left. The I2a that had been absorbed by the farmers is also at very low percentages. The places where you can find the highest frequency of some of these farmer yDna lineages is in isolated Sardinia. The I2a which shows up in the Balkans and Eastern Europe is once again a lineage picked up by the Indo-Europeans.

    You have to know the history of the sub-clades involved. You can't just look at I2a or G2a.

    There's just no denying that there was massive yDna line replacement in Europe over and over again. The causes we can argue about.

    See:
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...ighlight=Sarno
    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...light=Boattini

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    It is accepted fact the G, I2 ydna was replaced by R1b yet could it be possible the pre R1b europe had very little population and the incoming IEs had simply higher population from the begining so there weren't need to dissimate the local male line? or is it combination of the two.

  16. #416
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parafarne View Post
    It is accepted fact the G, I2 ydna was replaced by R1b yet could it be possible the pre R1b europe had very little population and the incoming IEs had simply higher population from the begining so there weren't need to dissimate the local male line? or is it combination of the two.
    There are lots of other possible factors: population crashes in central Europe due to climate change, and the plague which the Indo-Europeans brought with them, for example, However, the mtDna lineages of the women survived. So, there had to be some selective advantage of elite lineages in terms of breeding opportunities etc. unless it was also a case that the children of "native" women inherited some useful immunity to the new diseases? If you use our search engine you can find lots of threads where we discuss all these things at length.

    However, I think it's informative to look at the fact that even within the downstream R1b and R1a clades, so within these tribes, there's a lot of pruning. If they didn't kill the men with whom they were competing, they put them at a severe disadvantage. I don't think we can get away from the fact that some of that must have gone on. Anyway, that's what it looks like to me at the moment.

    Ed. Neolithic Europe is a bit different. There may have been some "warfare", but Europe was so unpopulated at the time that I think there was a lot of mutual co-existence of the two groups, especially because their economies were so massively different. It's just that farmers always massively out produce hunter-gatherers in terms of population growth. That's not to say the farmers couldn't be violent. There are a lot of examples of violence in the late Neolithic when resources decreased because of climate change.

    The I2a farmer lineages may have come about through absorption of some hunter-gatherer men and then just drift. We need to learn more about that period.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I try to see what happens if at one point in time, two diferent populations, each with its own Y haplogruop, 1 and 2, mix together, let's say in proportion of 10 to 90. At the initial moment the haplogrup 1 population represent 10% of the mixture, and fertility is the same for both populations, but because of any biological reasons there is a difference between the number of boys and girls who are born in families of men of haplogrup 1 and 2. I assumed that from 10 offsprings, males 1 have 6 boys and 4 girls, and males 2 have 4 boys and 6 girls.
    Then I calculated what would happen with the frequency of this two haplogroups in the mixed population over a few next generations.

    1 .......... 2
    (%) (%)
    10........90
    14,29...85,71 --> generation I (after 25-30 years)
    20........80
    27,27...72,73
    36........64
    45,76...54,24
    55,86...44,14 -->
    generation VI (150-180 years)
    65,5.....34,5
    74,01...25,99
    81.03...18,97
    86,5.....13,5
    90,57...9,43 -->
    generation XI (275-330 years)
    93,51...6,49
    95,58...4,42
    97,01...2.99
    97,99...2,01
    98,65...1,45
    99,09...0,91 -->
    generation XVII (425-510 years)

    Since the sixth generation (150-180years), the haplogroups proportion already has changed in favor of Y haplogroup 1.
    In about 275-330 years (eleventh generation), the proportion of haplogrope 1 (90,57%) already exceeds initial proportion of haplogroup 2 (90%).

    Other important effects:
    - Mitochondrial haplogroup of the population 2, which represented 90% at the beginning, will increase, reaching very close to 100% in a short time.
    -Although haplogroup 1 has become overwhelming, in fact the initial autosomal genetic heritage proportion of the mixture is kept, 10 to 90.

    If it has a correspondent in reality, this can explain many "sudden population extinctions" if we take into account only the chromosome Y. But these extinctions do not exist autosomaly!
    I think it be one explainations of the fast expansion at high proportion of R1b, R1a, or other Y haplogroups.
    So, probably, mixing with other small groups, many populations like Neolithic Farmers switch Y chromosome, but their genetic heritage remain at high level until today.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by gidai; 20-08-18 at 06:46.

  18. #418
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by gidai View Post
    I try to see what happens if at one point in time, two diferent populations, each with its own Y haplogruop, 1 and 2, mix together, let's say in proportion of 10 to 90. (...) What do you think?
    A nice example how it is wrong to draw conclusions about a past solely based on on present day frequencies of Y-DNA haplogroups without any insight into autosomal and ancient data.
    Last edited by Wonomyro; 20-08-18 at 10:57.
    Neopisivo

  19. #419
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angela View Post
    The G2a disappeared all over Europe
    Ehm, it's still alive and kicking, especially in Austria and Italy.

  20. #420
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    Quote Originally Posted by JajarBingan View Post
    Ehm, it's still alive and kicking, especially in Austria and Italy.
    Please read post number 414.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A little update based on new information.

    All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the Carpathians and is thought to have migrated to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE with the Illyrians, where it survives in over 50% of male lineages in most of Bosnia and Croatia.

    Ancient Greeks

    The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders.

    Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E1b1b too.

    Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.

    Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

    Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E1b1b) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

    Ancient Anatolians

    Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

    The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

    Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

    The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


    Romans, Celts and Germans

    Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b-L11 stock. They split north of the Alps, in modern Germany. They also incorporated a sizeable minority of G2a3b1 and J2b2 lineages, especially the Celts and the Italics.

    The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

    The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2a2 people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of autochthonous haplogroup I.

    Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. All of them mixed with I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b people from the Megalithic cultures. The Alpine and Rhino-Danubian Celts also encountered I2a2 people.

    It is likely that the language of the indigenous Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

    From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from western Anatolia or some Aegean islands, and brought mostly haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and R1b-L23 with them. The Greeks in Italy brought a similar admixture, but with a higher proportion of E1b1b. The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E1b1b, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a1.
    This is absolutely false since all ancient Greeks perished just as Romans did. You need DNA from fosiles.

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    So, Y DNA R2 was just in Ancient India?

  23. #423
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    The tartessos of what haplogroups were?

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    I'm impressed with the depth of your information, and most of it rings true with my 20 years of research, but you lost me here... and I strongly agree with Hag anus.
    Theres a very obvious genetic type represented in Scandinavian, Denmark, Northwestern Germany and the Netherlands, and it shows virtually zero mongoloid admixture.. this is obvious to any remotely discerning eye, but also obvious in skull shape, hair/eye/skin color, height, lactose tolerance, and several other factors I could spend a great deal of time listing.
    This idea of significant mongoloid mixture simply don't make any sense relative to my own totality of context, and I'm struggling to think the mental gymnastics that must be used to justify its being true.
    I agree with other posters, traits simply don't change THAT fast.. the big wide round eyes found in these regions can't have been re-shaped overnight, nor the hair color or texture, nor the eye color, nor the skin tone, nor the stature...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    Lastly on this, trying to say that the people of ancient Greece that achieved so much were ethnically different from those who live there today does not even reach the level of pseudo-science. I would not even lend dignity to those assertions by arguing against them. Offering maps upon maps and citations that are mostly irrelevant adds no credibility. todays Greeks are descended from the Indo European Greek tribes and those who did not get killed or driven off by them.
    This is complete nonsense, I'm afraid, at the risk of offending Greek friends...
    we have not only numerous exactingly-formed statues and artistic depictions showing a different type, but countless mentions of blond hair and blue eyes, especially among the Spartan element.
    Populations don't remain static over millennia.. capable human capital tends to migrate where the wealth and power and influence lies, slowly but surely, which leads to a brain-drain effect. Immigration into a region has an even more profound effect (think of what Europe might look like in 20 years, relative to what it looked like 20 years ago).
    Greece today is far more Turkic and misc than it was in the time of the Hellenes, just as northwest India looks completely different than it would have between 1500bc-500ad... the ruling caste is always subsumed and integrated over time, especially when the strict caste system is abandoned. They're definitely descendants, broadly speaking, but to assume they're the same people in a genetic or cultural sense doesn't seem to square with the information available.
    Last edited by jmedlin81; 02-02-19 at 21:33.

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