Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

Anyway, I made a question in one of my posts about the haplogroup I2. I2 it's too present in modern population of Croats and Bosniaks. Why I2 it's higher in those above mentioned nations, and much more less in other descendants of Slavs in central and east europe?

Nice day"

I2 could be higher among Croats and Bosniaks due to founder effect. It's STR diversitiy is astoundingly low. Highest diversity is concentrated around Carpathian mountain range.

Depends what you consider much more less. In Ukraine and Belarus I2 is second dominant HG. Epicentre seem to be around Moldova and Zakarpatje regions.

R1b absolutely dominates Iberian and Britanic population yet it's origin is from steppes of Central Asia, where modern frequencies are minimal.

It's quite easy to understand the pattern.
 
I2 could be higher among Croats and Bosniaks due to founder effect. It's STR diversitiy is astoundingly low. Highest diversity is concentrated around Carpathian mountain range.

Depends what you consider much more less. In Ukraine and Belarus I2 is second dominant HG. Epicentre seem to be around Moldova and Zakarpatje regions.

R1b absolutely dominates Iberian and Britanic population yet it's origin is from steppes of Central Asia, where modern frequencies are minimal.

It's quite easy to understand the pattern.
Thanks for your response.

1- I2 it's the largest HG in modern Croats and Bosniaks, as far as I know. The second it's R1a. They are I2/R1a. The Ukrainians have more R1a than the Croats/ Bosniaks, and they have the largest concentration of R1a.

2- what's your explanation about the higher presence in Croats/ Bosniaks of I2 ?

3- I have read that the ancient Scythii were R1a, and the later Sarmatians were G2/R1a. Although, the HG G2 was more present. The sarmatians were divided into two groups, one being the ruler class and the other (Limigantes) being the servers or the low class. It would be interesting knowing from what ancient bones the y- dna it's extracted. Another thing: until now in ancient skythian/ Sarmatian remains it's not found yet the HG I2, only one J1 and one J2a.
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I am trying to understand something about genetics, because I am ignorant on this matter.
 
1- thank you for your explanation on this matter.

2- anyway, I want to make clear what was my point of view. Considering the large number of R1a and the R1b throughout the Europe, especially in Germanics descendants and Slavic descendants, we should assume that the horse riders (IE people) were superior and they submitted the local people of Europe. One of the archeological proves for this it's recorded in south Greece in archeological sites. Around 2200-2000 bce the native people were conquered by a superior force. The destruction of settlements show this IE invasion. These superior people were carriers of R1. They step by step invaded the whole Europe and almost wiped out the local natives. But they took their women and mingled with them. That's why we have not too much mongoloid traits at the IE people. Please don't underestimate the importance of the horse in wars.

3- As far as I know, the metallurgy it's linked to the IE people. If we combine both, metallurgy and horse, what you need more!

4 - I heard for an afro/ Asiatic influence until the modern Germany prior the IE expansion.

No one is underestimating the importance of the horse in wars. The problem for your theory is that more recent research shows that the "Indo-Europeans" who first moved into Europe didn't have "war horses". Corded Ware had barely any horses at all. It may have been slightly different further south. The "war chariot" is first discovered in 2000 BC in Sintashta and very far in the east. Even then, it wasn't horse mounted warfare. Mounted warfare in Europe is an Iron Age phenomenon. Of course, the mobility provided by the domestication of the horse is indeed an asset, as I stated upthread.

I'm afraid you heard wrong as far as metallurgy is concerned, at least if you think the "Indo-Europeans" are the ones who first invented it. It was invented in the "Old Europe" of the Balkans and in the Near East. They learned how to use metal and make metal tools and weapons from those people, but it took a long time. Once learned, it was indeed an advantage, but as Corded Ware moved into Europe, they didn't have Bronze, and indeed had very little copper.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30625-David-Anthony-on-Metallurgy?highlight=Gateway+Europe

We have very different definitions of what makes an individual or culture "superior". Having a more war like nature, benefiting from the fact that you carry the plague with you to which you have developed a certain immunity, and being willing to kill and enslave a lot of the men in the areas where you arrive doesn't make you "superior". Far from it, in my book. That isn't to say that they were the first or the last culture to do this.

I have no idea what you mean by point number four. You might want to take your time and read carefully Lazaridis et al, and Haak et al to get a general picture of the major population movements into this area and all of Europe. They're also discussed extensively here. I've provided two of the main links:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...populations-for-Europeans?highlight=Lazaridis

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...languages-in-Europe?highlight=Balkan+genetics

This thread is specifically about western Baltic genetics, but Bulgarians and Romanians and other people from that area are included. There are some nice admixture results.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

It is discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30366-The-Balkans-as-Genetic-Corridor?highlight=Bosnians

If you want to delve into yDna I2, there's a dedicated thread for it. It's very long, so maybe start on page 22, so that the comments, due to the new ancient dna discoveries, are more fact based.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans/page22
 
No one is underestimating the importance of the horse in wars. The problem for your theory is that more recent research shows that the "Indo-Europeans" who first moved into Europe didn't have "war horses". Corded Ware had barely any horses at all. It may have been slightly different further south. The "war chariot" is first discovered in 2000 BC in Sintashta and very far in the east. Even then, it wasn't horse mounted warfare. Mounted warfare in Europe is an Iron Age phenomenon. Of course, the mobility provided by the domestication of the horse is indeed an asset, as I stated upthread.

I'm afraid you heard wrong as far as metallurgy is concerned, at least if you think the "Indo-Europeans" are the ones who first invented it. It was invented in the "Old Europe" of the Balkans and in the Near East. They learned how to use metal and make metal tools and weapons from those people, but it took a long time. Once learned, it was indeed an advantage, but as Corded Ware moved into Europe, they didn't have Bronze, and indeed had very little copper.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30625-David-Anthony-on-Metallurgy?highlight=Gateway+Europe

We have very different definitions of what makes an individual or culture "superior". Having a more war like nature, benefiting from the fact that you carry the plague with you to which you have developed a certain immunity, and being willing to kill and enslave a lot of the men in the areas where you arrive doesn't make you "superior". Far from it, in my book. That isn't to say that they were the first or the last culture to do this.

I have no idea what you mean by point number four. You might want to take your time and read carefully Lazaridis et al, and Haak et al to get a general picture of the major population movements into this area and all of Europe. They're also discussed extensively here. I've provided two of the main links:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...populations-for-Europeans?highlight=Lazaridis

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...languages-in-Europe?highlight=Balkan+genetics

This thread is specifically about western Baltic genetics, but Bulgarians and Romanians and other people from that area are included. There are some nice admixture results.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0105090

It is discussed here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30366-The-Balkans-as-Genetic-Corridor?highlight=Bosnians

If you want to delve into yDna I2, there's a dedicated thread for it. It's very long, so maybe start on page 22, so that the comments, due to the new ancient dna discoveries, are more fact based.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26903-How-did-I2a-Din-get-to-the-Balkans/page22
1- At my point four, I meant that the Europe was inhabited by various non-IE people, including the extreme North. Today we have almost only IE people.

2- The reason for the superiority of I-E people certainly it's not the plague and their immunity, as you mentioned above. If it would ne true, seems nonsense killing only the males and the females being saved. The reason why the IE- people wiped out all the natives it's their superiority. In my opinion one of the evidences for this it's the documented proto-Mycenae invasion of south Greece. It's clear they were superior.

3- The start of bronze age, corresponds to the raising of Hittite/ Mycenae civilizations. In my opinion it's not a coincidence.

4- How you explain the modern majority of R1 all over Europe, except some areas like Balkans?

5- Could you pinpoint why the Indo- Europeans were so successful? Obviously, they had something that the others didn't.
 
I always strive to be clear so that everyone can follow the debate, and to strip down the arguments to their essentials so people don't forget to see the forest for the individual trees, so I don't think I can express my take on this more clearly than I already have...

However, I also strive to be polite, so I'll have one more go at it.

They were successful because they were in the right place(s), at the right time, with the right tools, and the right social organization, as is true for any group that becomes dominant.

The tools, except for the domestication of the horse, and perhaps their more than average liking for warfare and development of a warrior cult, and their extremely patriarchal society, they initially adopted from others in a rather wholesale fashion. There's nothing in the archaeology or anthropology to indicate that the parts of their "package" that relate to farming, animal husbandry or herding, mining, metallurgy etc. were developed on the steppe . The steppe peoples had none of those things, and adopted them from cultures which had been developing them for hundreds if not thousands of years. There's absolutely no question about that. If you think there is, it's because you haven't done enough reading on the subject. Even carts, even war carts, are earlier in either Old Europe or the Near East.

There's nothing wrong with building a new civilization based on the technology of others, and then improving on it to some extent, by the way, as they did when they perhaps invented the spoked wheel and attached it to a cart and a horse in 2000 BC in Sintashta, or in those later periods became metal smiths of some repute. It shows realism and practicality and flexibility. That's what the Japanese have been doing since the 1800s. To some degree, it's what the Romans did by building on the accomplishments of the Greeks, and the Greeks by building on the accomplishments of the Near East, and so on. More power to them.

The right tools also refers to the fact that in many of the places they arrived, the "package" they had put together was new to the area and offered a better way to utilize the ecosystem. That wasn't true everywhere, however, which may have been a factor as to whether their alleles are a small or a larger proportion of the modern total, although there were other factors, like population density, no doubt.

The right time refers to the fact that Central Europe, for example, had experienced repeated population crashes because of climate change, deforestation and other environmental degradation because of slash and burn farming methods, and the unsuitability of this early form of farming to the climate and terrain of central and northern Europe. These areas were only able to support larger populations thousands of years later in the Middle Ages when different types of plows were invented which could turn the heavy earth, and they learned about crop rotation and other things. They also needed slightly different cereal crop strains. This is all well known. Please use the search engine to find the citations. It will be worth it; it's all very interesting. I just can't spend any more time on this by also hunting down the citations; there's this little thing called my life that I sometimes remember. :)

We also know that they did indeed carry the plague. (Again, use the search engine.) It's perhaps somewhat analogous, although not totally, to the situation in the Americas when the Europeans brought the measles, chicken pox, small pox, etc. to the New World. It made the Europeans sick, killed a good number, but it decimated the native Americans. In some places 90% of them died.

As to why certain areas of Europe, predominantly central, eastern and northern Europe, are so heavy in the "Indo-European" clades of R1b and R1a, the preceding should make the answer self-explanatory. If you come in to a sparsely settled area or one that has seen a population crash, and you happen to also harbor plague, and of the surviving population, you either kill a lot of the men, or otherwise make them disadvantaged for procreation (enslaving them or making them serfs?), and so the vector for the genes of the earlier inhabitants is far more often the women, then would you expect anything else? I wouldn't.

In the Americas it was even more extreme in certain areas, even in relatively advanced areas like those of the Aztecs and Mayas, because the disparity in technology was still greater. In addition to disease, and horses, and steel swords, they had guns and cannon, for goodness sakes. Hardly an "equal" fight. The native civilizations had agriculture, and some metallurgy, but they didn't have domestic animals for riding, or iron and steel yet, and certainly not guns. That's why so many of the men in Latin America carry European yDna bub native mtDna.

Have you read Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond? I think you'd find it very interesting. (I don't agree with all of his proposals, but it's important to read him, I think.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

I do think we badly need some research into the effects of various mtDna on health, fitness, and procreative ability as well. We know how important mtDna is for all of these things. There's already a bit of research that mtDna "H" is better for protection against sepsis and women who have it bear more children, likewise some indication that carriers of some R1 clades may be slightly more likely to sire sons, and even a slight propensity could have a maximum impact over time.

So, based on the papers and books we have so far, that's my take on it. I'm always more than ready to change my position as new evidence comes in.

I don't think there's any purpose served by debating this with you any more. You can accept it or not, as you choose. I would advise that you look for the papers, however.
 
I don't hate my neighbors.

I posted where Greece is 5 posts above and then some ethnic FYROMian started posting his propaganda, saying that Greeks are Blacks, Asians etc (I'm surprised he didn't call us Amerindians). What should I do? Not reply? I think my reaction was very civilized. He continued posting his propaganda and I just ignored him.

I have nothing against my neighbors. I had classmates who were immigrants from Albania, last year I had 1 Turkish student and 2 Bulgarians. The problem is that certain people filled with their country's propaganda attack my country and therefore myself. You must have noticed that I have never started such a conversation in this forum without being provoked first.
If I hated my neighbors and wanted to provoke them I would have asked Maciamo for example to edit all posts with the word Macedonia and rename it to FYROM since that is the official name for the moment, or to remove Turkey from the European maps etc. I'm not irrational though and I don't bring up such matters, unless I am provoked.

Your old neighbors for sure aren't as propagandistic as mine. They are civilized people who are more or less rational and believe in cooperation between countries. In this forum I was able to have a decent debate with only one Turk and zero people from FYROM...

I believe in friendship between countries too, I watch Turkish series on tv, I vote for the Albanian song in Eurovision :)grin:) and I am very open to conversations with people who are willing to have a decent chat with me. But friendship includes both sides willing to cooperate. In the Macedonia issue Greece has proposed several names that could please both countries, like Nova Macedonia or North Macedonia etc which don't cancel the right of the rest of Macedonians to be called like that. But they just don't want to cooperate unless the name is Macedonia, or Republic of Macedonia. We are way more rational than them. You should refer to them about being rational and cooperating with your neighbors.

Remember it was Greece that made the issue about our name. The Republic of Macedonia had it's name for decades before independence and Greece had no objection. We don't need others to determine our name, that is up to the citizens of the state to determine, not our neighbours or any one else. In any case, there is no confusion really, our state is called Republic of Macedonia, and the majority of it's inhabitants are ethnic Macedonians, whereas over the border, there is a region of Greece called Macedonia, and it's inhabitants are mostly ethnic Greeks.
 
Remember it was Greece that made the issue about our name. The Republic of Macedonia had it's name for decades before independence and Greece had no objection. We don't need others to determine our name, that is up to the citizens of the state to determine, not our neighbours or any one else. In any case, there is no confusion really, our state is called Republic of Macedonia, and the majority of it's inhabitants are ethnic Macedonians, whereas over the border, there is a region of Greece called Macedonia, and it's inhabitants are mostly ethnic Greeks.
You can call yourselves whatever you like. However, no one has to accept this. If your people are Slavs it's hard for me to see you as the inheritors of the ancient Macedonian civilization. The Greeks of Greek Macedonia see themselves as Macedonians too, with their idea of "Macedonian" being a Greek subgroup.
 
You can call yourselves whatever you like. However, no one has to accept this. If your people are Slavs it's hard for me to see you as the inheritors of the ancient Macedonian civilization. The Greeks of Greek Macedonia see themselves as Macedonians too, with their idea of "Macedonian" being a Greek subgroup.

This is true, thankfully the majority of the world accepts it. As for being Slavs, well yes we are a Slavic nation, but genetically we are mostly pre-Slavic and this site has tons of data demonstrating this. Remember a large part of the Greeks of Macedonia were imported into the area from the 1920s from Turkey, after the population exchange with Greece. These refugees are mostly of Armenian and Georgian stock, who had to be taught Greek in schools. Surely the Slavicized aboriginal inhabitants of the region of Macedonia have a greater right to the name, than these pretenders.
 
This is true, thankfully the majority of the world accepts it. As for being Slavs, well yes we are a Slavic nation, but genetically we are mostly pre-Slavic and this site has tons of data demonstrating this. Remember a large part of the Greeks of Macedonia were imported into the area from the 1920s from Turkey, after the population exchange with Greece. These refugees are mostly of Armenian and Georgian stock, who had to be taught Greek in schools. Surely the Slavicized aboriginal inhabitants of the region of Macedonia have a greater right to the name, than these pretenders.
Well said VMRO. Welcome to Eupedia.
 
This is true, thankfully the majority of the world accepts it. As for being Slavs, well yes we are a Slavic nation, but genetically we are mostly pre-Slavic and this site has tons of data demonstrating this. Remember a large part of the Greeks of Macedonia were imported into the area from the 1920s from Turkey, after the population exchange with Greece. These refugees are mostly of Armenian and Georgian stock, who had to be taught Greek in schools. Surely the Slavicized aboriginal inhabitants of the region of Macedonia have a greater right to the name, than these pretenders.
I'm fine with all of this, it's just the alliance with Turkey that I find somewhat unnerving. I see many Macedonians praising Turkey, and I wish for Macedonians to remember that Turks see you as nothing more than Ottoman citizens, like everyone else in the Balkans.
 
I'm fine with all of this, it's just the alliance with Turkey that I find somewhat unnerving. I see many Macedonians praising Turkey, and I wish for Macedonians to remember that Turks see you as nothing more than Ottoman citizens, like everyone else in the Balkans.

Agree with you. Turkey and Macedonia are drawn together because of Greece. Macedonians don't realise that Turks couldn't care less about Macedonians, they are just used by Turkey in their game against Greece. In saying this though, all Macedonians are aware of the horrors of the Ottoman Empire and what they did to Balkan Christians. No Macedonian would ever like to see Turks enter Macedonian soil again. It is currently more a case of ''my enemy's enemy is my friend'', which is often the case in Balkan politics, as I'm sure you're aware. I think the way to thwart this is a resolution with Greece over the name.
 
You can call yourselves whatever you like. However, no one has to accept this. If your people are Slavs it's hard for me to see you as the inheritors of the ancient Macedonian civilization. The Greeks of Greek Macedonia see themselves as Macedonians too, with their idea of "Macedonian" being a Greek subgroup.
Everyone call himself whatever he like,just like you are Dinarid now in this case i accept your choice.
The name issue have little to do with ancient history,it is mostly modern politics and starting from the 19th century.The ancient history being just pretext for this.There is no continuity in "ancient" Macedonian history since tons of things have been changed in that region since their "legends" that made the region famous that is Phillip and Alexander.Everyone claiming continuity including Greeks are delusional nationalist,pick Thesaloniki if you like it was mostly Jewish city when Greeks conquered it.About other ethnic make up pick yourself maps prior 1913(division of Macedonia) and do your research on the region.

Here is quote from national awakers of Macedonian people Georgi Pulevski (1817-1895);
What do we call a nation? – People who are of the same origin and who speak the same words and who live and make friends of each other, who have the same customs and songs and entertainment are what we call a nation, and the place where that people lives is called the people's country. Thus the Macedonians also are a nation and the place which is theirs is called Macedonia.
By definition that is nation then and now,only in Balkans people think that this is inherited since pra-history.
However no one from great powers at the time supported independent Macedonia,the Macedonian rebelion in 1903 was crashed by Ottomans without the needed support,later on Macedonia divided between Greeks,Serbs and Bulgarians,Greeks sieging 51%,the problems of that are still visible today,countries created with support by great powers(Greece and Bulgaria had kings of German origin) just a case to see how modern countries were created,firstly Bulgaria for example with Russian idea to gain entrance in the warm waters.The current R.Macedonia was formed by the anti-nazi communist party of Macedonia,with similar ideas like the former,they succeded creating a republic within Yugoslavia and gained independence in 1991,only the Serbian part of Macedonia is current R.Macedonia,since the communist plan of "unified Macedonia" within Balkan federation or greater Yugoslavia (including Bulgaria) failed.
 
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You can call yourselves whatever you like. However, no one has to accept this. If your people are Slavs it's hard for me to see you as the inheritors of the ancient Macedonian civilization. The Greeks of Greek Macedonia see themselves as Macedonians too, with their idea of "Macedonian" being a Greek subgroup.
If we are to go in ancient "fairy tales" my ancestors inhabited a region that was home to Agrianes "Thraco-Peonian tribe" ,entire region is in ruins from them,best allies of Phillip and Alexander,their land administrated by Pella(Macedonian capital) later on they governed themselves because were one of the most trust worth allies.It is northern most region of Macedonian region,with parts of south Serbia,west Bulgaria.
While they fought against Persians with Macedonians,because Athenians for example view that as occupation by barbarian Macedonians see Demosthenes.Many,many Greeks fought on Persian side,likewise later on against Romans,when Romans operating on the banner(freedom for Greeks from Macedonia).
The make up of alliances and political activities in that period and today was completely different,likewise one political organization as a whole(to our current understandings)therefore talking about countinuity again is non sense.

No one make issue about Dalmatians and Dalmatia whether they descent from Delmatae or not,we all call them as such due to the region they inhabit,if they saw themselves as distinct to Croats or Serbs,they would have simply today be Dalmatians in ethnic sense,if they had political movement to be independent they could have formed a country,and that is that.
 
This is true, thankfully the majority of the world accepts it. As for being Slavs, well yes we are a Slavic nation, but genetically we are mostly pre-Slavic and this site has tons of data demonstrating this. Remember a large part of the Greeks of Macedonia were imported into the area from the 1920s from Turkey, after the population exchange with Greece. These refugees are mostly of Armenian and Georgian stock, who had to be taught Greek in schools. Surely the Slavicized aboriginal inhabitants of the region of Macedonia have a greater right to the name, than these pretenders.

While it's true that a large part of the Greeks of Macedonia were imported into the area from modern-day Turkey, these refugees were not of Armenian and Georgian stock. It's quite possible that Pontic Greeks were admixed with some Caucasian populations but that doesn't make them Armenian or Georgian. Furthermore they didn't speak Georgian or Armenian but an Hellenic dialect with many archaisms. There was one non-Greek speaking Christian Orthodox group in south-central Anatolia, the Karamanlides but not many refugees were Karamanlides.

And not all refugees were Pontic Greek. Those from Asia Minor coasts descend from Greek colonizers (ancient, medieval and early modern) and Thracians, 'Luwians', even Galatians which were hellenized since late antiquity. My maternal grandfather was from Smyrna/Izmir but his ancestry was Cretan and Cycladic probably (based on their surnames).

About Ancient Macedonia the majority of the population was Thracian, not Hellenic. The Argead dynasty was Hellenic though and they adopted Attic Greek. Modern Greek and Koine Greek, the language of Hellenistic Macedonian kingdoms are quite close. We speak their language practically.
 
While it's true that a large part of the Greeks of Macedonia were imported into the area from modern-day Turkey, these refugees were not of Armenian and Georgian stock. It's quite possible that Pontic Greeks were admixed with some Caucasian populations but that doesn't make them Armenian or Georgian. Furthermore they didn't speak Georgian or Armenian but an Hellenic dialect with many archaisms. There was one non-Greek speaking Christian Orthodox group in south-central Anatolia, the Karamanlides but not many refugees were Karamanlides.

And not all refugees were Pontic Greek. Those from Asia Minor coasts descend from Greek colonizers (ancient, medieval and early modern) and Thracians, 'Luwians', even Galatians which were hellenized since late antiquity. My maternal grandfather was from Smyrna/Izmir but his ancestry was Cretan and Cycladic probably (based on their surnames).

About Ancient Macedonia the majority of the population was Thracian, not Hellenic. The Argead dynasty was Hellenic though and they adopted Attic Greek. Modern Greek and Koine Greek, the language of Hellenistic Macedonian kingdoms are quite close. We speak their language practically.

you do not know what you talking about,

at least 150 000 Greeks came from what today is called Fyrom, Monasterion Perlepe Stromnitsa Evgeleia etc with their own will
and 350 000 are the Pontic Greeks, which from them only 150-180 000 settled in N Greece imncluding the Sevas and Kappadokia and about 10-15 % left to USA and elsewhere until 1932 before ended the exchange of kitap (κτηματολογικοι χαρτες Τουρκικου κρατους) exchanged.
80 000 came from Bulgaria (ανατολικη Ρωμυλια) with their own will
the minor Asian were mostly from Magnesia (Philadelgeia) and not Smyrna (turkophonoi and zeibeks - Kula teppe) and are few in numbers comparing the other
about 60 000 direct came direct and 80 000 from around Con/polis after 1860 till the pogrom 1954 from them 1/3 were Jews the diefference is some are exchanged, some are with their own will

search the census of Greek state
the difference among own will and exchange, is the some came free will and others came either by force, or by treaties,

and that is why both Greece and Fyrom do not dare to ask the land, according the kitap (turkish land registry official pappers)
cause enough land and properties of Slavic speakers that is in Greece and much more that is in Fyrom will change hands and pass an anomaly,
for example the 60% of Monasterion (bitola) town belongs to Greeks according Turkish kitap maps, although Communistic policy destroy it and build huge blocks,
means that if one dares to ask most citizens of Monasterion will found their shelves without home,
something same is also in some areas in Greece,
that is why no side in going to international courts, but only for the name,

it is more complicated than some politician want, and is more easy than other want,

it is a problem that created by politicians, and mainly Turks,
who when retreat establish a state with a ghost treaty.
in fact the parallel casualties at WW2 and civil war for this subject are much more than Balkan wars and WW1 excluding clear army battles

about ancient Makedonians except Argeiads, at least you know them, were also the Locroi Λοκροι, the bottiaeans Βοττιαιοι etc etc,
whom you probably never heard, although you call the frog βατραχος and the water battery βρυση and your bed κραββατος etc etc,
Ι wonder have you ever heard of Argos Orestikon, if not search for it,
 
you do not know what you talking about,

at least 150 000 Greeks came from what today is called Fyrom, Monasterion Perlepe Stromnitsa Evgeleia etc
and 350 000 are the Pontic Greeks, which from them only 150-180 000 settled in N Greece imncluding the Sevas and Kappadokia and about 10-15 % left to USA and elsewhere until 1932 before ended the exchange of kitap (κτηματολογικοι χαρτες Τουρκικου κρατους)
80 000 came from Bulgaria (ανατολικη Ρωμυλια)
the minor Asian were mostly from Magnesia (Philadelgeia) and not Smyrna (turkophonoi and zeibeks - Kula teppe) and are few in numbers comparing the other

search the census of Greek state
Not very biased for a "original" Makedonian.
This can be send in Balkan disagreements.
How many then Slavs,Bulgarians,Fyromians,the non existent ones or whatever you call them left "Greek Macedonia"?
What was the ethnic make up of "Greek Macedonia" prior Greece "liberated" that part of "Greek Macedonia"?
Do they had right of self determination then and now?
Do they had then or now right to speak their mother tongue the "Slavic" non existent one? or still the police is watching at their windows what language they speak?
Since when Greek become the national language in Greek Macedonia?
Does in Greece exist a minority status as in every other neighboring country or all are "Hellenes" descendant of Pericles and Sophocles?
How many villages and towns were renamed in Greek Macedonia,shortly here;
Greek region of Macedonia

Till 1912, the area had a very heterogeneous population consisting of Slavic, Turkish, Greek, Jews and Wallachian people. Most of the geographical names were of non Greek origin, the Greek government planned to change this. Between 1913 and 1928 the Slavic names of hundreds of villages and towns were Hellenized by a Committee for the Changing of Names, which was charged by the Greek government with "the elimination of all the names which pollute and disfigure the beautiful appearance of our fatherland".Between 1912 (Balkan Wars) and 1928 (after the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey), the non Greek inhabitants were largely gone and instead of them Greek refugees from the Ottoman Empire settled in the area thereby changing its demography.

This people today call themselves original Makedonians?
 
I'm not going to say it again. This thread is for the discussion of the yDna haplogroups of ancient civilizations. You guys are not going to destroy another genetics thread. The next person that posts an off-topic comment will get an infraction. Take your historical/ethnic disputes to other threads.

I'll tell you now though that even on those threads I'm not going to tolerate this constant ******** of Greeks.
 
I'm not going to say it again. This thread is for the discussion of the yDna haplogroups of ancient civilizations. You guys are not going to destroy another genetics thread. The next person that posts an off-topic comment will get an infraction. Take your historical/ethnic disputes to other threads.

I'll tell you now though that even on those threads I'm not going to tolerate this constant ******** of Greeks.

LeBrok was ok with the first offtopic comment.

Well said VMRO. Welcome to Eupedia.

This isn't a genetics thread but a thread created by a charlatan. And it's pure speculative pseudoscience. You are smart enough to understand it.

I don't want an infraction. A ban would have been preferable.
 
about ancient Makedonians except Argeiads, at least you know them, were also the Locroi Λοκροι, the bottiaeans Βοττιαιοι etc etc,
whom you probably never heard, although you call the frog βατραχος and the water battery βρυση and your bed κραββατος etc etc,
Ι wonder have you ever heard of Argos Orestikon, if not search for it,

Stabo says that the majority were Thracians. There were also Epirote Greeks, Illyrians (non-Greek) and others probably. The Argeads were Greek too and Macedonian Greek was quite close to NW Greek most likely.
 

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