Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

LeBrok was ok with the first offtopic comment.



This isn't a genetics thread but a thread created by a charlatan. And it's pure speculative pseudoscience. You are smart enough to understand it.

I don't want an infraction. A ban would have been preferable.

@Papadimitriou,
Yes, some of the posts are pure speculation, and pseudoscience, and sometimes a whole lot of ethnic ********, although there are some good bits too.

A little wandering off topic is fine, and often interesting; I have no problem with it. However, when the "usual suspects" start getting into the usual Balkan ethnic disputes bandwagon, it ruins the thread for everybody else.

You don't seem to get it. I haven't read the whole thread, or all of the many "Balkan" threads, but from what I've read, I quite often agree with your points, certainly in your last post about the "ethnic" identity of the Greeks who were repatriated to Greece. As I said, I was addressing the "usual suspects".

I don't want you to get banned. You provide another, and needed perspective. I know it's difficult, believe me, but just don't let this stuff get to you.
 
LeBrok was ok with the first offtopic comment.



I don't want an infraction. A ban would have been preferable.
You do not deserve that at all,you haven't started anything of that.
Often i agree with your points of view,you have your own opinion on certain things so do I.
Just to be clear myself that i do not care less about ancient Macedonians to make them more close to me or to others here.I stated my opinion on the ancient "fairy tales".With whom i will identify today is only my own political conviction,as i even have a Yugoslav flag on my profile.
I was writing about the name issue.
Have been many times in Greece and talk to many Greeks in person and will go again,have nothing against them.
 
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Hi all,

This is my first post, this is one of the more interesting threads, being that I am J2 and am more knowledgable in the various the clades and distribution there are 2 very interesting clades J-Z467 and J-M319. There is general observation that J2 is associated with the Mediterranean.

J-Z467 is associated with Southern Anatolia and the Levant, various civilizations had a good portion of their people with J-Z467 and its branches, the civilizations goes as the following: the Cilicians, the Hurrians, the Ancient Cypriots, Ugarites, Mari, Urartu, Assyrians likely took in some of these lines when they conquered this area and the Canaanites would eventual lead to the Phoenicians, Aramaics and Israelites carrying some of these lines. It came into Europe through Phoenician settlers, Greek Seleucid Empire through migrations, Jewish diaspora and migrations through various periods, Roman and Byzantine Empires (through immigrations more during Roman times).

J-M319 on the other hand has a definite role in Crete, Minoan Crete and the Minoans definitely had J-M319, it is also found in Middle Easterners and Jewish People as well. J-M319 most likely originated around the same area as J-Z467 and a portion went to Western Anatolia, Aegean Islands and Crete. The other followed J-Z467 and other J2a lineages into the Middle East and the Levant. Its dispersion into Europe was brought the same way as J-Z467 with the additional Magna Graecia migrations taking place in setting up Greek Colonies after Minoan Crete was absorbed.

This is going to be a delicate issue on my next opinion but I believe Alexander the Great was J2b M241 and that the original Macedonians carried this line along with the Ancient Albanians.
 
Not very biased for a "original" Makedonian.
This can be send in Balkan disagreements.
How many then Slavs,Bulgarians,Fyromians,the non existent ones or whatever you call them left "Greek Macedonia"?
What was the ethnic make up of "Greek Macedonia" prior Greece "liberated" that part of "Greek Macedonia"?
Do they had right of self determination then and now?
Do they had then or now right to speak their mother tongue the "Slavic" non existent one? or still the police is watching at their windows what language they speak?
Since when Greek become the national language in Greek Macedonia?
Does in Greece exist a minority status as in every other neighboring country or all are "Hellenes" descendant of Pericles and Sophocles?
How many villages and towns were renamed in Greek Macedonia,shortly here;
Greek region of Macedonia

Till 1912, the area had a very heterogeneous population consisting of Slavic, Turkish, Greek, Jews and Wallachian people. Most of the geographical names were of non Greek origin, the Greek government planned to change this. Between 1913 and 1928 the Slavic names of hundreds of villages and towns were Hellenized by a Committee for the Changing of Names, which was charged by the Greek government with "the elimination of all the names which pollute and disfigure the beautiful appearance of our fatherland".Between 1912 (Balkan Wars) and 1928 (after the Population exchange between Greece and Turkey), the non Greek inhabitants were largely gone and instead of them Greek refugees from the Ottoman Empire settled in the area thereby changing its demography.

This people today call themselves original Makedonians?

Makedonian strugle, search for it,

you will have better view of case,

in fact why Slavs change even ancient Brygian names,
and how many names change the Slavs after 1912,
 
Hi all,

This is my first post, this is one of the more interesting threads, being that I am J2 and am more knowledgable in the various the clades and distribution there are 2 very interesting clades J-Z467 and J-M319. There is general observation that J2 is associated with the Mediterranean.

J-Z467 is associated with Southern Anatolia and the Levant, various civilizations had a good portion of their people with J-Z467 and its branches, the civilizations goes as the following: the Cilicians, the Hurrians, the Ancient Cypriots, Ugarites, Mari, Urartu, Assyrians likely took in some of these lines when they conquered this area and the Canaanites would eventual lead to the Phoenicians, Aramaics and Israelites carrying some of these lines. It came into Europe through Phoenician settlers, Greek Seleucid Empire through migrations, Jewish diaspora and migrations through various periods, Roman and Byzantine Empires (through immigrations more during Roman times).

J-M319 on the other hand has a definite role in Crete, Minoan Crete and the Minoans definitely had J-M319, it is also found in Middle Easterners and Jewish People as well. J-M319 most likely originated around the same area as J-Z467 and a portion went to Western Anatolia, Aegean Islands and Crete. The other followed J-Z467 and other J2a lineages into the Middle East and the Levant. Its dispersion into Europe was brought the same way as J-Z467 with the additional Magna Graecia migrations taking place in setting up Greek Colonies after Minoan Crete was absorbed.

This is going to be a delicate issue on my next opinion but I believe Alexander the Great was J2b M241 and that the original Macedonians carried this line along with the Ancient Albanians.
From them map of the J2 it looks like that's it's connected closely with Albanians. Both E v13 and J2 looks as Albanian subclades. Why you think that Alexander the great was J2 ? However, even if he was J2 it doesn't prove anything.
 
From them map of the J2 it looks like that's it's connected closely with Albanians. Both E v13 and J2 looks as Albanian subclades. Why you think that Alexander the great was J2 ? However, even if he was J2 it doesn't prove anything.

A non-indigenous Middle Eastern farming element in territory we call "Albania" may have carried E-V13 and J2b. From a language point of view, if Indo-European really did come from the steppe, which there is plentiful evidence supporting this, the elite were of a European hunter-gatherer type, and carried R1b. Same likely goes for the Mycenaean Greeks, and intrusive warrior elite. There is ample support the earlier farmers were of the Middle Eastern type.
 
I think J2b and E-V13 have been in the Balkans for awhile, I think J2b may have been the ancestors of the Doric Greeks, Albanians, Epirus and part of the Macedonians, as for Alexander the Great being J2 there is no evidence since we cant dna test him, but its rather an educated guess, he could have been E-V13 as well.
 
I always felt like Mycenaean Greeks and Spartans were R1b, as they are warrior based societies.
 
A non-indigenous Middle Eastern farming element in territory we call "Albania" may have carried E-V13 and J2b. From a language point of view, if Indo-European really did come from the steppe, which there is plentiful evidence supporting this, the elite were of a European hunter-gatherer type, and carried R1b. Same likely goes for the Mycenaean Greeks, and intrusive warrior elite. There is ample support the earlier farmers were of the Middle Eastern type.
So, what would be the ancient Illyrians or better saying proto Illyrians. Were them more R2b or R1a?
If what you said it's true, that means Albanians are more connected to the ancient balkanians, as long as the largest subclades which they carry on are Ev 13 and J2, along with the R1b.
 
So, what would be the ancient Illyrians or better saying proto Illyrians. Were them more R2b or R1a?
If what you said it's true, that means Albanians are more connected to the ancient balkanians, as long as the largest subclades which they carry on are Ev 13 and J2, along with the R1b.

I'd say the Illyrians had R1a and R1b-U152 migrants that migrated into their area during the Bronze Age as people related to the Greek Macedonians and Dorians invaders. R2 is most strong in the Indian subcontinent and rare in Europe. http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#middle_bronze_age
 
A little update based on new information.

Romans, Celts and Germans

Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b-L11 stock. They split north of the Alps, in modern Germany. They also incorporated a sizeable minority of G2a3b1 and J2b2 lineages, especially the Celts and the Italics.

The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2a2 people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of autochthonous haplogroup I.

Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. All of them mixed with I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b people from the Megalithic cultures. The Alpine and Rhino-Danubian Celts also encountered I2a2 people.

It is likely that the language of the indigenous Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from western Anatolia or some Aegean islands, and brought mostly haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and R1b-L23 with them. The Greeks in Italy brought a similar admixture, but with a higher proportion of E1b1b. The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E1b1b, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a1.

Now that the Neolithic-Bronze age map has been updated. It seems that the Megalithic cultures are no longer E1b but the builders of Stonehedge are now only Ydna I2 and G. Do you know how else ydna E1b could have gotten into Ancient Britain?
 
I always felt like Mycenaean Greeks and Spartans were R1b, as they are warrior based societies.

So would Ghenkis Kan, Hanibal Barca, Miyamoto Misashi, Xiahou Dun fall under R1b too? :unsure:
 
So would Ghenkis Kan, Hanibal Barca, Miyamoto Misashi, Xiahou Dun fall under R1b too? :unsure:

Good point Maleth, I believe there is a correlation between warrior culture and R1b, it doesn't necessarily mean that other warrior cultures can't be other haplogroups.
 
I guess Gengis Khan Q or N and Hannibal a Phoenician J1 lol
 
Good point Maleth, I believe there is a correlation between warrior culture and R1b, it doesn't necessarily mean that other warrior cultures can't be other haplogroups.

Sparta was located south of the Peloponnese (South Greece). These are a very approx Main haplogroups presently.

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)

I : 12.9
R1a :10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1B :25.8
G: 3.4
J2: 19.7
J1:2.3
LT:3.8
*1.5

http://gnosticwarrior.com/greek-dna.html (I dont know how reliable these percentages are but similar to others I have seen)
There might be population replacements and so on during the course of history but I very much doubt if R1b was the dominant culture of the time ;).......
 
I guess Gengis Khan Q or N and Hannibal a Phoenician J1 lol

J2 is very high in the land of origins of the Phoenicians (Lebanon), apart from Cyprus and Crete, so another possibility for Mr. Barka :)
 
Sparta was located south of the Peloponnese (South Greece). These are a very approx Main haplogroups presently.

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)

I : 12.9
R1a :10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1B :25.8
G: 3.4
J2: 19.7
J1:2.3
LT:3.8
*1.5

http://gnosticwarrior.com/greek-dna.html (I dont know how reliable these percentages are but similar to others I have seen)
There might be population replacements and so on during the course of history but I very much doubt if R1b was the dominant culture of the time ;).......

You could definately right! But than again who is to say that Sparta couldn't have been R1b majority while the rest of the Southern Pelopponese city states were high in other haplogroups.
 
Sparta was located south of the Peloponnese (South Greece). These are a very approx Main haplogroups presently.

Southern Greeks (Sterea Hellas & Peloponnese) (264 samples)

I : 12.9
R1a :10.2
R1b : 20.5
E1B :25.8
G: 3.4
J2: 19.7
J1:2.3
LT:3.8
*1.5

http://gnosticwarrior.com/greek-dna.html (I dont know how reliable these percentages are but similar to others I have seen)
There might be population replacements and so on during the course of history but I very much doubt if R1b was the dominant culture of the time ;).......

The interesting thing is that E-V13 hasn't really turned up often among the Neolithic finds, although I suspect it must have been part of a secondary wave of farmers. For some reason it reaches high frequency just north west of the Balkans in Austria...I suspect the Celtic people picked it up and brought it to Wales. The farmers of Greece were G2a and look how low these rates are in this sample - 3.4%..... The point is that we have no clue who these ancient people were, and it appears the Balkans is extremely volatile and doesn't resembe the Neolithic YDNA distribution from what we have seen so far. R1b still seems to be the strongest IE speaking candidate in the Albanian and Greek populations...unless you were thinking Levantines were the origin of PIE language? ...
 
You could definately right! But than again who is to say that Sparta couldn't have been R1b majority while the rest of the Southern Pelopponese city states were high in other haplogroups.

I don't think we have much evidence for either theories. What is for sure is that we more and more now that ancient Greece had similar markers to those found at present from all the evidence we have say in other areas were they expanded, that is coast of Turkey and Italy and beyond. So present day Haplos can give some kind of indication.
 
The interesting thing is that E-V13 hasn't really turned up often among the Neolithic finds, although I suspect it must have been part of a secondary wave of farmers. For some reason it reaches high frequency just north west of the Balkans in Austria...I suspect the Celtic people picked it up and brought it to Wales. The farmers of Greece were G2a and look how low these rates are in this sample - 3.4%..... The point is that we have no clue who these ancient people were, and it appears the Balkans is extremely volatile and doesn't resembe the Neolithic YDNA distribution from what we have seen so far. R1b still seems to be the strongest IE speaking candidate in the Albanian and Greek populations...unless you were thinking Levantines were the origin of PIE language? ...

E-V13 might be the most dominant however they as a society it compromises any other groups including R1b and J2 for example. Maybe one has to go deeper into were the different groups came from before the classical era. Regards to Neolithic finds we have E-V13 as old as 7000 BP.

These are extracts from more recent papers. 2014 study

On the other hand, Y-chromosome lineage E-V13 is thought to have originated in southern Balkans
[53][54] and then to have spread in Sicily at high frequencies with the Greek colonization of the island [8].

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0096074

quote - In Europe, certain sub-haplogroups of G and specifically E-V13 were detected in ancient DNA, including Linear Band Keramik (LBK) remains from Central Europe (ca. 8000 y BP), Epicardial skeletons from Iberia (7000 y BP), South of France Late Neolithic (5000 y BP), and a Tyrol specimen (5300 y BP) [77, 78, 79, 80].- end quote

https://investigativegenetics.biomed...323-016-0032-8
 

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