Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 457

Thread: Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

Hybrid View

Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
  1. #1
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,722
    Points
    710,925
    Level
    100
    Points: 710,925, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.

    Post Y-DNA haplogroups of ancient civilizations

    Here is a summary of the current genetic knowledge regarding ancient ethnic groups. This is based on Y-chromosomal haplogroups only.


    The ancient Egyptians

    Based on the modern population of Egypt, and removing the foreign elements, it is reasonable to assume that the Neolithic to Bronze Age Egyptians belonged primarily to haplogroups E1b1b, with minorities of G, R1b-V88 and T. There might have been some J1 too.

    Nowadays perhaps as much as 30% of the Egyptian paternal lines could be descended from post-Bronze Age invaders, notably from the Arabic peninsula (hg J1-P58, 20% of the population), but also from Greece (more E1b1b + I2a, J2, R1b-L23, R1a) and Anatolia (mostly J2 and R1b-L23, with some R1a).

    The ancient Persians

    Iran has a highly heterogeneous populations when it comes to Y-DNA. Percentages vary greatly between East and West, and from North to South. Ancient Persia was less diverse, but still very mixed by ancient standards. Its ethnic composition prior to the Greek, Arabic and Mongol invasions was probably made of about 35% of haplogroup J (J1 being more predominant in the South and J2 in the North), 20% of hg R1a, 15% of hg G, 15% of hg R1b, 5% of hg L, and 10% of other haplogroups.

    The ancient Babylonians

    Babylonians in southern Mesopotamia belonged primarily to haplogroups J1, J2 and T, with a minority of E1b1b and G.

    The ancient Assyrians

    The Assyrians would have contrasted with their southern Babylonian neighbours by having much more J2 than J1 and a considerable amount of R1b-L23 (20 to 40%). They would also have had minorities of E1b1b, G and T lineages.

    The ancient Sarmatians & Scythians

    Descended from the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-Europeans, the Scythians would have belonged mostly to haplogroup R1a (probably more than 50% of the paternal lineages), which is the only Y-DNA haplogroup that has been found in various Iron Age Scythian remains in eastern Europe and Central Asia to date. It is very likely that the Scythians also possessed a substantial minority of R1b, and smaller percentages of G1, G2a3b1, J2a, J2b2, Q1b and T1a1a. The Sarmatians would have been essentially the same, perhaps without the G1 and Q1b and with some eastern European I2a1b and E-V13.

    The ancient Slavs

    Present-day Slavs are descended from Bronze Age Steppe cultures descended from the Corded Ware culture (including the Catacomb and Srubna cultures), associated with the R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280 people, as well as the Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture (I2a1b-M423). Slavic Europeans belonged primarily to haplogroup R1a and I2. Southern Slavs descended from the Thracians, Dacians and Illyrians have a much higher proportion of I2a1b.

    Eastern Europeans from the Danubian basin and the Balkans have also inherited a sizeable percentage of haplogroup E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2b and T from the expansion Neolithic farmers that started from northern Greece 7,000 years ago. These lineages survived at a higher frequency in non-Slavic populations of the Balkans, notably the Albanians, Romanians, Vlachs and Greeks.

    The Thracians, Dacians & Illyrians

    According to ancient sources, the Thracians were a fusion of Proto-Indo-European Steppe people with the Neolithic inhabitants of the Carpathians (Cucuteni-Trypillian culture). As such they probably belonged to R1a (about 30%), R1b (10%), I2a1b (25-30%), E-V13 (10-15%), G2a, J1, J2a, J2b, and T1a. The Dacians were closely related to the Thracians and would have carried a similar mixture of haplogroups. The Illyrians have more mysterious origins, but judging from the modern haplogroup frequencies in the Dinaric Alps, they surely were predominantly a blend of R1a and I2a1b.

    The ancient Greek & Romans

    => See post #3 below.

    The ancient Celts

    It is now believed that the ancient Celts were by a very large majority R1b people. Many subclades of R1b divide the various geographic groups of Celts. 2500 years ago, British and Irish Celts belonged mostly to the subclade R1b-L21. Celts from Iberia and south-west Gaul were R1b-DF27, while the other Gauls, from central France to southern Germany to northern Italy, belonged to R1b-U152. Further subgroups exist for all these clades (see Haplogroup R1b).

    The ancient Germanic people

    The four main haplogroups associated with Germanic people are I1, I2a2a (M223), R1a (mostly the L664, Z283 and Z284 subclades) and R1b (mostly U106, but also L238 and DF19). Here is more information on Germanic I1, Germanic I2a2a, Germanic R1a, and Germanic R1b

    The ancient Indians

    The Indo-Aryan people who invaded the Indian peninsula from Central Asia and Iran 3,500 years ago belonged mostly to haplogroups R1a-Z93, with a minority of G2a3b1, J2b2, R1b (both M269 and M73) and R2. This is known from the analysis of Y-DNA of the upper castes of Indian society (the Brahmins and the Kshatriyas), thought to be descended from the Indo-Aryans with minimal admixture on the paternal side. The native Dravidians belonged to the indigenous South Asian haplogroups C5, F, H and L.

    The ancient Chinese

    Haplogroup O is associated with the Han ethnicity, as well as most of the people of East Asia and Polynesia. Nowadays O3 is the most common in northern China while O1 dominates in southern China.

    The ancient Japanese

    Modern Japanese people are composed of two ancient ethnicities : the Yayoi people, who migrated from the Korean peninsula about 2,300 years ago, bringing with them agriculture; and the Jomon people, the hunter-gathers who had lived on the archipelago for millennia before that. The Yayoi were hg O people (mostly O2b and O3), like the northern Chinese and the Koreans. The Jomon belonged mostly to the rare haplogroup D (also found in Tibet and in the Andamans, some of the most isolated places on Earth), essentially the uniquely Japanese D2, but also a minority of C1 (also unique to Japan) and East Siberian C3. For more information see The Origin of Japanese people.

    The ancient Americans

    Be them nomadic tribes from North America, Aztecs, Mayas, Quechuas or cannibals from Amazonia, almost all native Americans belonged to haplogroup Q1a3a, but a minority of hg C existed in North America.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 27-02-14 at 16:26.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  2. #2
    The Hairy Wookie Achievements:
    Veteran10000 Experience Points
    Mycernius's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-02-05
    Location
    Hometown of George Eliot
    Age
    49
    Posts
    916
    Points
    21,649
    Level
    44
    Points: 21,649, Level: 44
    Level completed: 99%, Points required for next Level: 1
    Overall activity: 0%


    Ethnic group
    English
    Country: UK - England



    Just as I was looking for something like this you put up a post about it. There is a baka on Jref who seems to think that ancient Israelites are responsible for Buddhism amoung other starnge and weird ideas. His evidence is scripture. I mentioned DNA doesn't hold any of his shite to be true and he asked for sources. I put up two links, but this is an excellent link. Cheers

  3. #3
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,722
    Points
    710,925
    Level
    100
    Points: 710,925, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    1 members found this post helpful.
    A little update based on new information.

    All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the Carpathians and is thought to have migrated to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE with the Illyrians, where it survives in over 50% of male lineages in most of Bosnia and Croatia.

    Ancient Greeks

    The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders.

    Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E1b1b too.

    Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.

    Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

    Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E1b1b) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

    Ancient Anatolians

    Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

    The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

    Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

    The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


    Romans, Celts and Germans

    Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b-L11 stock. They split north of the Alps, in modern Germany. They also incorporated a sizeable minority of G2a3b1 and J2b2 lineages, especially the Celts and the Italics.

    The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

    The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2a2 people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of autochthonous haplogroup I.

    Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. All of them mixed with I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b people from the Megalithic cultures. The Alpine and Rhino-Danubian Celts also encountered I2a2 people.

    It is likely that the language of the indigenous Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

    From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from western Anatolia or some Aegean islands, and brought mostly haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and R1b-L23 with them. The Greeks in Italy brought a similar admixture, but with a higher proportion of E1b1b. The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E1b1b, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a1.
    Last edited by Maciamo; 21-09-13 at 18:48.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered

    Join Date
    07-05-09
    Posts
    49


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A little update based on new information.

    All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a2 survived around Croatia because of it's relative isolation, outside the Danubian corridor used by new waves of immigrants/invaders. I2a1 survived at high frequency in Sardinia simply because it is the most isolated place in Europe.

    Ancient Greeks

    Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I, E-V13, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Caucasus approximately 6,000 years ago as herders of sheep and goats (and early miners ?).

    Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E too.

    Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Ukrainian steppes. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1a. So were the Macedonians and the Thracians (hence the higher density of R1a in northern Greece).

    Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

    Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E and J2) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

    Ancient Anatolians

    Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers from the Near East (E + J2).

    The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably R1b, considering the high percentage of R1b in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

    Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

    The Phrygians arrived in northern Anatolia after 1200 BCE, and were probably an offshoot from the Thracians (so R1a).

    The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the R1b homeland. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


    Romans, Celts and Germans

    Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b1b2 stock. They split north of the Alps.

    The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a, G2a and E-V13. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

    The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2b people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I.

    Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. The Iberian and Gaulish groups mixed with I2b, I2a and E people, the Alpine with I2b and E, and the Brythonic just with I2b people.

    It is likely that the language of the aboriginal Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

    From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from Palestine and brought haplogroups J1, J2 and E with them. The Greeks in Italy were Doric and brought J2, E, G2a and probably more R1b (see above). The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a.
    This was extremely informative and very helpful.

  5. #5
    Junior Member Achievements:
    31 days registered100 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-08-11
    Posts
    1


    Country: Greece



    First of all I would like to congratulate the forum and the sight for the quality and quantity of information provided. It is extremely difficult and "hazardous" to combine history with genetics in the age of nationalism; so my wish to you is "keep up the good work".
    At this point I d like to post three questions:
    1. Apart from the Pelasgians and the Dorians, is there any information on the Ionians?
    2. Can the E1b1b haplogroup be related to the Pelasgians?
    3. Is there a genetic similarity of modern Greeks to the people that inhabited the peninsula at 500BC?
    Thanks in advance for your time

  6. #6
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered500 Experience Points
    onslo's Avatar
    Join Date
    27-02-12
    Posts
    8
    Points
    733
    Level
    6
    Points: 733, Level: 6
    Level completed: 92%, Points required for next Level: 17
    Overall activity: 0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1* (M 253+ )

    Ethnic group
    GERMANIC,VIKING,GOTHS
    Country: United States



    Maciamo,
    You say:
    "The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I."
    Could you please elaborate about the ' aboriginals'.

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Achievements:
    Three FriendsRecommendation First ClassVeteran50000 Experience PointsTagger First Class
    Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    8,722
    Points
    710,925
    Level
    100
    Points: 710,925, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    Quote Originally Posted by onslo View Post
    Maciamo,
    You say:
    "The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of aboriginal haplogroup I."
    Could you please elaborate about the ' aboriginals'.
    These would be good places to start (unless you have a more specific question) : haplogroup I1 and haplogroup I2

  8. #8
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    03-04-13
    Posts
    3
    Points
    43
    Level
    1
    Points: 43, Level: 1
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Bulgaria



    Dear Maciamo,

    Thank you for the very instructive post. I have question. How do you explain the origin of Bulgarians /Thracians. There are some more articles on the matter (I can not yet post them since I don;t have 10 posts).

    There is a theory stating that the Thracians (Pelasgans, Troyans etc) are the original population of the Balkans and their migrations are caused by the Black Sea flood (about 6500 BC).

  9. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    03-04-13
    Posts
    3
    Points
    43
    Level
    1
    Points: 43, Level: 1
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Bulgaria



    Here is some copy paste:
    The approximate distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups among the Bulgarian people runs as follows:
    16% E1b1b
    1% G2a
    3% I1
    20% I2a (very common among South Slavic peoples)
    1% I2b
    20% J2
    1% Q
    18% R1a
    18% R1b
    1% T
    Here are mtDNA haplogroups found among Bulgarians:
    38% H (of which 10% are in the subclades H1 and H3 combined)
    10% J
    6.5% T
    20% U (of which 10% are in U3, 6.5% in U4, and 3.5% in U5)
    13% K
    6% X2
    6.5% other haplogroups

  10. #10
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran5000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    17-12-11
    Location
    Sofia
    Posts
    330
    Points
    5,432
    Level
    21
    Points: 5,432, Level: 21
    Level completed: 77%, Points required for next Level: 118
    Overall activity: 4.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    J-L70
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H2a2a1

    Ethnic group
    Bulgarian
    Country: Bulgaria



    Hi

    Quote Originally Posted by dimp View Post
    Here is some copy paste:
    The approximate distribution of Y-DNA haplogroups among the Bulgarian people runs as follows:
    16% E1b1b
    1% G2a
    3% I1
    20% I2a (very common among South Slavic peoples)
    1% I2b
    20% J2
    1% Q
    18% R1a
    18% R1b
    1% T
    Here are mtDNA haplogroups found among Bulgarians:
    38% H (of which 10% are in the subclades H1 and H3 combined)
    10% J
    6.5% T
    20% U (of which 10% are in U3, 6.5% in U4, and 3.5% in U5)
    13% K
    6% X2
    6.5% other haplogroups
    Ur data is really obsolete, there is now a big research based on 808 unrelated Bulgarians from all over the country- http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779
    [img]http://i.imgur.com/8JvdPDa.png[/img]
    Eupedia is also updated :) http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml
    22% E1b1b
    5% G2a
    4.5% I1
    20% I2a (very common among South Slavic peoples)
    1.5% I2b
    10% J2
    0.5% Q
    18% R1a
    10% R1b
    1.5% T
    sounds more like it :)

  11. #11
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    03-04-13
    Posts
    3
    Points
    43
    Level
    1
    Points: 43, Level: 1
    Level completed: 86%, Points required for next Level: 7
    Overall activity: 3.0%


    Country: Bulgaria



    You are correct but I could not post the link.
    But could you address mu question?

  12. #12
    Regular Member Achievements:
    1 year registered1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    03-03-12
    Posts
    212
    Points
    1,827
    Level
    11
    Points: 1,827, Level: 11
    Level completed: 93%, Points required for next Level: 23
    Overall activity: 15.0%


    Ethnic group
    Serbian
    Country: Netherlands



    Quote Originally Posted by Yaan View Post
    Ur data is really obsolete, there is now a big research based on 808 unrelated Bulgarians from all over the country- http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0056779
    northern part of Sophia province, area around Sofia city, is the home of Serdi, Celtic tribe that got thracanized

    but the area has very little Celtic R1b
    Sophia province has 2.7% U152 and no other S116
    and the Sofia city (earlier Serdica) has 1.7% of U152 and 3.4% of other S116

    however it has, especially Sofia city area, elevated I2a-din and lowered E-V13 compared to nation average......of course part of this I2a-din may be due to modern Serbs, that are just across the border...but just across the border were also E-V13 Dardanians

    in any case this seems to support my theory that some of the Balkan Celts such as Serdi and Scordisci were probably not really R1b celtic but probably more I2a-din celtic... i believe that i2a-din was Celtic prior to becomming Slavic and in that respect Serdi may be the origin of modern Serbs....


    idea is that like free Dacians, also free Thracians went to north, in accordance with Russian primary chronicle that speaks of Danubian Slavs (and among them explicitly mentions Serbs and Croats) who moved to Vistula region due to spread of Roman empire.....

    Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. O
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
    http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/...selections.pdf

    Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.
    http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html




    since Dacians and Thracians were of same Venethi race (R1a people in my opinion with exception of I2a-din Serdi and Carpi), I think they made new tribal name "free Venethi" or Slobodni Venethi
    which was abbreviated with Slo-Veneti... the core of this tribe was surrounded with its border tribes Venedi and Anti (both names derived from words having meaning turn, end, border...first one in PIE, second one in iranian)




    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...irii-and-Hirri


    when thinking of Thracians in context of haplogroups above keep in mind that after Dacia and Thrace fall under Roman empire and some people left to north in order to stay free, the areas were also settled with people from other parts of Roman empire and influence areas of Greek tribes from south Thrace did enlarge...

  13. #13
    Junior Member Achievements:
    3 months registered250 Experience Points

    Join Date
    09-12-13
    Location
    Kumanovo, Macedonia
    Posts
    6
    Points
    300
    Level
    3
    Points: 300, Level: 3
    Level completed: 50%, Points required for next Level: 50
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Serbia



    What about the Illyrians, Thracians, Sarmatians, and Scythians?

  14. #14
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    26-01-14
    Posts
    3
    Points
    56
    Level
    1
    Points: 56, Level: 1
    Level completed: 6%, Points required for next Level: 94
    Overall activity: 6.0%

    MtDNA haplogroup
    HV

    Ethnic group
    English & Welsh
    Country: UK - Wales



    'Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland' - to be the best of my understanding this is not accurate. The Brythonic Language was spoken by people living in Cornwall and Wales (and also Brittany across the coast from Cornwall and in France), and these communities also demonstrate a shared archeological heritage (i.e. portal dolmens / quoits, standing stones and stone circles). However there is no evidence genetic or archaeologically that these groups were in any way associated with the Celtic tribes of Europe or perceived 'Celts' of Britain. The people occupying these western areas of the UK and Ireland are believed to have been Atlantic Traders from the Iberian Peninsula speaking a Brythonic language that is still evidenced in place names across Cornwall, Wales and Brittany. Tribes occupying the east and south east of England shared some practices in common with European Celts (e.g. metalworking / jewellery) but there is no evidence that they spoke a Brythonic language. The term 'Celt' has caused a great deal of confusion amongst researchers due to incorrect assumptions made by English Victorian historians. Otherwise very interesting information, thank you for posting.

  15. #15
    Advisor Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassOverdriveVeteran25000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-11-12
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    2,383
    Points
    27,727
    Level
    51
    Points: 27,727, Level: 51
    Level completed: 17%, Points required for next Level: 923
    Overall activity: 3.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b1b2a* (inferred)

    Country: Germany



    Quote Originally Posted by LHW View Post
    'Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland' - to be the best of my understanding this is not accurate. The Brythonic Language was spoken by people living in Cornwall and Wales (and also Brittany across the coast from Cornwall and in France), and these communities also demonstrate a shared archeological heritage (i.e. portal dolmens / quoits, standing stones and stone circles). However there is no evidence genetic or archaeologically that these groups were in any way associated with the Celtic tribes of Europe or perceived 'Celts' of Britain. The people occupying these western areas of the UK and Ireland are believed to have been Atlantic Traders from the Iberian Peninsula speaking a Brythonic language that is still evidenced in place names across Cornwall, Wales and Brittany. Tribes occupying the east and south east of England shared some practices in common with European Celts (e.g. metalworking / jewellery) but there is no evidence that they spoke a Brythonic language. The term 'Celt' has caused a great deal of confusion amongst researchers due to incorrect assumptions made by English Victorian historians. Otherwise very interesting information, thank you for posting.
    The term "Celtic" in the linguistic sense is very clearly defined, and includes the Brythonic and Gaelic languages, as well as the extinct Gaulish (including Galatian) and Hispano-Celtic languages. But there is a difference between that definition and the peoples historically called "Celts". What you are right in regard for is the concept of a "Celtic" identity: the term "Celt" was originally the self-designation of the Gauls, while the ancient Britons and Irish - though speakers of Celtic languages never identified themselves historically as "Celts" (this only happened after the linguistic concept of "Celtic languages" was established, which by the way happened a fair bit before the Victorian age!). Ancient Greek and Roman authors also applied the term "Celt" to the Celtic peoples of the Iberian peninsula, but not consistently.

    By the time that the Romans conquered Britain, the island was inhabited by Celtic- (Brythonic) speaking peoples, which probably arrived a couple of centuries earlier (at the start of the iron age - there's some archaeological and genetic evidence for a migration from the European mainland at this point). This "Old" Brythonic language was very similar to the Gaulish that at the same time was spoken on the other side of the Channel, and some of the tribes were found on both sides of the Channel (such as the Atrebates and the Parisii). With regard for Brittany, it should be noted that Brythonic-speaking people arrived in 'Brittany' only during the Migration Period. In the Antiquity, the region was Gaulish-speaking.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Veteran1000 Experience Points

    Join Date
    07-01-14
    Posts
    14
    Points
    4,122
    Level
    18
    Points: 4,122, Level: 18
    Level completed: 68%, Points required for next Level: 128
    Overall activity: 0%


    Country: Germany - Hesse



    Someone assumed that the main population in ancient Greece was I2, but culturologists say it was the Mongols who built the core of helots and then with Thracian, Semitic and IE elements. Thracians are assumed to be I2 with some R1a.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Achievements:
    Three FriendsTagger Second ClassVeteran10000 Experience Points
    Twilight's Avatar
    Join Date
    29-06-12
    Location
    Seattle, Washington
    Age
    25
    Posts
    882
    Points
    12,327
    Level
    33
    Points: 12,327, Level: 33
    Level completed: 54%, Points required for next Level: 323
    Overall activity: 2.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-U152-Z56-BY3957
    MtDNA haplogroup
    J1c7a

    Ethnic group
    15/32 British, 5/32 German, 9/64 Irish, 1/8 Scots Gaelic, 5/64 French, 1/32 Welsh
    Country: USA - Washington



    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A little update based on new information.

    All haplogroups I are the indigenous people of Europe, the direct descendants of Cro-Magnon (it isn't R1b as previously thought). This is why I is found everywhere in Europe at low frequencies, except I1 which remained strong in Germanic countries. A pocket of I2a1a (M26) survived in Sardinia because of it's relative isolation. I2a1b (M423) seems to have adopted agriculture early on around the Carpathians and is thought to have migrated to the Dinaric Alps around 1000 BCE with the Illyrians, where it survives in over 50% of male lineages in most of Bosnia and Croatia.

    Ancient Greeks

    The Pelasgians (pre-Minoan Greeks, or Helladic Greeks) belonged to an admixture of I2, E1b1b, T and G2a. E-V13 and T probably arrived in Greece from the Levant (and ultimately from Egypt, hence the small percentage of T) in the early Neolithic, 8,500 years ago. G2a came from the Levant was picked up in Anatolia along the way by Levantine farmers and herders.

    Minoan Greeks migrated from Mesopotamia via Anatolia. They were mostly J2 people, but probably had some E1b1b too.

    Mycenaean Greeks arrived around 3,600 years ago from the Pontic steppes via the Balkans. They were an Indo-European people belonging to R1b-L23 and/or R1a. The Thracians, who emerged as a blend of Indo-European R1a and Neolithic I2a1b, are also responsible for the higher density of I2a1b and R1a in northern Greece.

    Greece was invaded by the Dorians around 1200 BCE. Nobody knows who they were or where they came from, but the high percentage of R1b in the regions where they settled (Peloponese, Crete) strongly suggest that they were R1b people. The events are linked to the Sea Peoples (see below), who were probably R1b people from the north-east of the Black Sea, or early Celts from central Europe.

    Greek historians sometimes mention that the Dorians were the descendants of the Trojans who came back to avenge their ancestors. The Trojans were an Indo-European people related to the R1b Hittites (see below). This would also explain why there is about the same percentage of R1b and R1a in modern Greece. Each correspond to a different wave of Indo-European invader. They only make up 12% of the population (each) because the Neolithic farmers (especially E1b1b) were already well-established and numerous by that time.

    Ancient Anatolians

    Southern Anatolia was colonised early by Neolithic farmers and herders from the Fertile Crescent (E1b1b, G2a, J1, J2, T).

    The Indo-European invasions brought the Hittites (1750 BCE), the Lydians and Lycians (1450 BCE), Phrygians (1200 BE) and the Proto-Armenians (1200 BCE). All were probably predominantly R1b-L23, considering its high percentage in the regions they settled. R1b Indo-Europeans are thought to have originated on the north-eastern shores of the Black Sea, just north of the Caucasus. They could have invaded northern Anatolia by crossing the Caucasus, sailing across the sea, or going around via the steppes through the Bosphorus.

    Later R1b were possibly (part of) the Sea Peoples that ravaged the ancient Near Eastern civilizations, from Greece to Egypt. Their advance military technology and sea-based culture make of them very good candidates.

    The Cimmerians are probably the last wave of migration (around 700 BCE) from the Pontic Steppe. By that time the steppe would have been thoroughly overrun by R1a people, so that was probably the Cimmerians's main haplogroup. They are said to have be expelled from Anatolia and moved to Europe, where they joined the other R1b people. Germanic and Celtic people both claim (partial) Cimmerian ancestry.


    Romans, Celts and Germans

    Celtic, Italic and Germanic people are all descended from the same R1b-L11 stock. They split north of the Alps, in modern Germany. They also incorporated a sizeable minority of G2a3b1 and J2b2 lineages, especially the Celts and the Italics.

    The Italic branch went south and mixed with the Terramare people who were I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b. Northern Italians have more Indo-European Celto-Italic blood, while southern Italian have more indigenous blood (the highest being Sardinia, then Basilicata).

    The Germanic branch moved north and mixed with the indigenous I1 and I2a2 people, who had already mixed with R1a migrants from the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture. The new hybrid Germanic people retained the highest percentage of autochthonous haplogroup I.

    Celtic people split in several groups : the Brythonic went to Britain and Ireland, the Gaulish to France, the Iberian to Spain and Portugal, and the Alpine remained around Austria, Switzerland, southern Germany, Eastern France and Belgium. All of them mixed with I2a1a, G2a and E1b1b people from the Megalithic cultures. The Alpine and Rhino-Danubian Celts also encountered I2a2 people.

    It is likely that the language of the indigenous Europeans influenced the various Celtic, Italic and Germanic dialects. Germanic languages diverted the most from the original European R1b language because it assimilated a very large part of aborigines.

    From about 700 BCE, the Etruscans settled around Tuscany and the Greeks in southern Italy. Etruscans probably came from western Anatolia or some Aegean islands, and brought mostly haplogroups E1b1b, G2a, J2 and R1b-L23 with them. The Greeks in Italy brought a similar admixture, but with a higher proportion of E1b1b. The Romans progressively absorbed the Etruscans and Italian Greeks and mixed with them. By the time of Julius Caesar Roman citizens were probably composed of 45% of R1b, 20% of J, 15% of E1b1b, 15% of G2a and 5% of I2a1.
    Nicely done however I noticed on my Eurogene K15 and K36 Dna I got 4% East Mediteranian/East Balkan and Another 4% West Mediteranian Dna. I'm a British Islesman with 1/8th Prussian and 1/32nd Southern French Dna and I'm not sure if there is any other way the Eastern Balkans got into the isles unless perhaps if it is actually Greek.

  18. #18
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    22-02-13
    Posts
    553


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Nicely done however I noticed on my Eurogene K15 and K36 Dna I got 4% East Mediteranian/East Balkan and Another 4% West Mediteranian Dna. I'm a British Islesman with 1/8th Prussian and 1/32nd Southern French Dna and I'm not sure if there is any other way the Eastern Balkans got into the isles unless perhaps if it is actually Greek.
    I agree, Maciamo gets it right in terms of y dna composition of ancient cultures. The only thing I disagree is characterization of Pellasgians as Greeks. Greek historians wrote that, when they arrived in present day Greece they found another people inhabiting the area, namely Pellasgians. In their history books they write that 1500 years before Christ Pellasgians were still speaking their language and having separate villages from Greeks. Pellasgians also inhabited Albania before the Illyrians arrived, and Central and south Italy. In terms of Dna and physical look the pellasgians the closest ,who resembled them are present day Kosovo Albanians. I am not saying that Kosovan Albanians are Pellasgians since Kosovo Albanians have the Illyrian layer also. So, none of present day Ballkan people can not claim Pellasgians as their ancesters.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    I agree, Maciamo gets it right in terms of y dna composition of ancient cultures. The only thing I disagree is characterization of Pellasgians as Greeks. Greek historians wrote that, when they arrived in present day Greece they found another people inhabiting the area, namely Pellasgians. In their history books they write that 1500 years before Christ Pellasgians were still speaking their language and having separate villages from Greeks. Pellasgians also inhabited Albania before the Illyrians arrived, and Central and south Italy. In terms of Dna and physical look the pellasgians the closest ,who resembled them are present day Kosovo Albanians. I am not saying that Kosovan Albanians are Pellasgians since Kosovo Albanians have the Illyrian layer also. So, none of present day Ballkan people can not claim Pellasgians as their ancesters.
    where Pellasgians the Dorian people, because that's what you are describing
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  20. #20
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    22-02-13
    Posts
    553


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    where Pellasgians the Dorian people, because that's what you are describing
    The Dorians are invaders of Greece. The came from north it is said. They rampaged the old Greek civilization and later became part of it. Pellasgians predate Greeks. The were in Greek lands a lot earlier than the real Greeks( Hellens) Today's geeks are hardly Hellens.. Greeks invaded the lands were they reside today. Invasion a lot of times its done without war. North America is an example. At the beginning Europeans and American Indians were eating turkey together( We call it Thanksgiving nowadays) And then the soft invasion happened. Or in today's North America there is no war between Mexicans that are invading US and present population. But Mexican numbers in US are staggering. When the word cup in soccer happened this June Americans were stunned that Mexicans could be from many South American countries. Anyway, Pellasgians are the first inhabitants of South Europe. Later the Hellens came, Illyrians, Thracians and many others. This is recorded by Greek Historians 2000 yrs BC. After that they became part of invaders.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,212
    Points
    41,358
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,358, Level: 62
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 292
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by albanopolis View Post
    I agree, Maciamo gets it right in terms of y dna composition of ancient cultures. The only thing I disagree is characterization of Pellasgians as Greeks. Greek historians wrote that, when they arrived in present day Greece they found another people inhabiting the area, namely Pellasgians. In their history books they write that 1500 years before Christ Pellasgians were still speaking their language and having separate villages from Greeks. Pellasgians also inhabited Albania before the Illyrians arrived, and Central and south Italy. In terms of Dna and physical look the pellasgians the closest ,who resembled them are present day Kosovo Albanians. I am not saying that Kosovan Albanians are Pellasgians since Kosovo Albanians have the Illyrian layer also. So, none of present day Ballkan people can not claim Pellasgians as their ancesters.
    ?????

    source of which ancient greek writer said the underline?
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  22. #22
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    22-02-13
    Posts
    553


    Country: Albania



    Google " Pellasgians" in Greek language and you will find it. I have heard the story from Albanian TV. Today the name Larissa remains as a reminder of Pellasgian heritage. Larissa is not a Hellenic word. Lisus in Albania is another one. I am not a professional historian to exactly direct you to the source. But its recorded in ancient Greek history books.

  23. #23
    Banned Achievements:
    100 Experience Points1 year registered

    Join Date
    22-02-13
    Posts
    553


    Country: Albania



    Quote Originally Posted by Yetos View Post
    ?????

    source of which ancient greek writer said the underline?
    See Wikipedia! Type pellsgians!

  24. #24
    Regular Member Achievements:
    OverdriveVeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Yetos's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-11
    Location
    Makedonia
    Posts
    5,212
    Points
    41,358
    Level
    62
    Points: 41,358, Level: 62
    Level completed: 78%, Points required for next Level: 292
    Overall activity: 13.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    G2a3a
    MtDNA haplogroup
    X2b

    Ethnic group
    Makedonian original
    Country: Greece



    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Nicely done however I noticed on my Eurogene K15 and K36 Dna I got 4% East Mediteranian/East Balkan and Another 4% West Mediteranian Dna. I'm a British Islesman with 1/8th Prussian and 1/32nd Southern French Dna and I'm not sure if there is any other way the Eastern Balkans got into the isles unless perhaps if it is actually Greek.
    Both Greeks less and Phoenician more manage to Islands, but that could not not determinant

  25. #25
    Regular Member Achievements:
    VeteranThree Friends25000 Experience Points
    Sile's Avatar
    Join Date
    04-09-11
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5,119
    Points
    29,699
    Level
    52
    Points: 29,699, Level: 52
    Level completed: 96%, Points required for next Level: 51
    Overall activity: 37.0%

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    T1a2 -Z19945..Jura
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H95a1 ..Pannoni

    Ethnic group
    North Alpine Italian
    Country: Australia



    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Twilight View Post
    Nicely done however I noticed on my Eurogene K15 and K36 Dna I got 4% East Mediteranian/East Balkan and Another 4% West Mediteranian Dna. I'm a British Islesman with 1/8th Prussian and 1/32nd Southern French Dna and I'm not sure if there is any other way the Eastern Balkans got into the isles unless perhaps if it is actually Greek.
    eastern balkans in the home of the original thracians .....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odrysian_kingdom

    the northern Thracians of Dacians and Getae seemed to have been slightly different.

    eastern balkans is also part of the pontic race

    many thracians settled in Britain as part of the roman legions

Page 1 of 15 12311 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Predicted haplogroups of early Middle Eastern civilizations
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 13-07-15, 20:21
  2. Haplogroups and Civilizations
    By motatalea in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 15-04-13, 20:19
  3. Matching Ancient languages with Ancient tribes
    By zanipolo in forum Linguistics
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 24-07-11, 02:19
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 28-04-11, 19:41
  5. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 25-07-10, 20:00

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •