Study shows that IQ decreases with religiosity

[murad1234]

I would have to disagree many times religion started an enlightenment period in many civilizations.

[castelleone]

ScienceDirect - The intelligence–religiosity nexus: A representative study of white adolescent Americans



Good summary. It confirms what I have observed since my childhood. I have met a lot of agnostics that were as intelligent as atheists - they just didn't care much about philosophical questions or were less interested in neuroscience than atheists.

I have met some less bright people who didn't believe in god or in anything, but they were not true atheists. They were just people who didn't care and never really reflected on the existence of god. Technically they are implicit atheists (or "atheists by default"), although I wouldn't call them atheists - just lazy minds. This study probably only included explicit atheists.

And probably guy with the highest IQ on Earth has a Theory exactly about... God's existence.

http://www.ctmu.org/
Whereas standard theology takes the existence of God as axiomatic and then attempts, often naively, to characterize the relationship between its assumed definition and a more or less concrete model of reality, logical theology explores a logical formulation of ultimate reality for any divine properties that might naturally reveal themselves; given that divine law (if it exists) would necessarily incorporate the laws of logic and mathematics on a basic level, it seeks evidence of divinity in the context of a reality-theoretic extension of logic, the CTMU. The implied convergence of theology, mathematics and science yields a reality-based theological framework with the strength and capacity to support realistic solutions to various real-world problems.


Ah the irony...

[firetown]

I can definitely see intellectual curiosity dropping when you design your life and thought process around religious sets of rules. Not talking about a belief here, but the feeling that everything will be ok as long as you stay within a certain box.

[berun]

how about atheist people becoming religious as me or religious people becoming atheist? I don't feel any change in intelligence (WTF!), instead, research attitudes were widened.

[ToBeOrNotToBe]

Not true, religiosity decreases with openness, and openness tends to increase with IQ.

[martinmkp]

The question is: Does IQ really matter for nature? And, what the IQ really is? Or, mankind: what is more important for development of societies, what is the engine of successful development? Believe in something, or have (presumably, statistically and subjectively) high IQ?
And - does this study or sentence "IQ decreases with religiosity" have any sense? Any added value to evolution of species including humans?

[SYNCHRONIC]

Show me an atheist who is a genuine genius and I will eat my hat.

Every single one of the most brilliant minds in the history of the Earth have been the most spiritually connected or religious persons; Pythagoras, Leonardo Da Vinci, Sir Isaac Newton, Nikola Tesla etc... Even modern individuals who I'd not quite class as genius's, but people of very high intelligence and accomplishment in limited fields such as Einstein and Max Plank, and Professor Yan Xin, were very spiritual.

[Tutkun Arnaut]

Show me an atheist who is a genuine genius and I will eat my hat.

Every single one of the most brilliant minds in the history of the Earth have been the most spiritually connected or religious persons; Pythagoras, Leonardo Da Vinci, Sir Isaac Newton, Nikola Tesla etc... Even modern individuals who I'd not quite class as genius's, but people of very high intelligence and accomplishment in limited fields such as Einstein and Max Plank, and Professor Yan Xin, were very spiritual.

What about DARWIN? For him must have been hard ?

[SYNCHRONIC]

What about DARWIN? For him must have been hard ?

I don't see the genius in Charles Darwin personally, not to mention that the farther we come along, the more of his theory is put in question, and the more proof that a lot of the early "evidence" for his theories were forgeries. Also he took his ideas from others work/research, not something I consider synonymous with genius.

[Ygorcs]

I think these studies (not the first one I have come across with this very same claim) are pretty lazy. What if lower religiosity and higher IQ are both not correlated to each other but instead strongly correlated to something else which broadens one's individualistic thinking and freedom of conscience, thus simply allowing many people who followed a religious belief just because it's the "thing that people do here", i.e. because of social conformity and collectivism in an environment without much freedom to exercise and express one's own thoughts and freely examined conclusions. Not too many people are firm and rationally convinced believers, most just follow what they were taught without much reflection about it. Some great minds who were also believers had that very different attitude, including some cases of former atheists who became religious: they were believers because they made a completely personal investigation about it and reached their own conclusions independently. That's why most of them are hardly the most orthodox and simple-minded believers you may find.

Then, the social and economic conditions that create that situation I described above may also allow people to increase their average IQ. In a traditionally and historically atheist society with strong social cues to have no spiritual or transcendental belief at all I wouldn't be surprised if more people with high IQ would in fact be religious or at least "spiritual", because the real correlation would be "people who are not conformists and are free-minded, thus more prone to oppose the social traditions and the usual way of thinking". I think that explanation is much, much more likely than simply saying that "IQ decreases with religiosity" without any remotely logical explanation to why one thing would cause the other.

[LeBrok]

I think these studies (not the first one I have come across with this very same claim) are pretty lazy. What if lower religiosity and higher IQ are both not correlated to each other but instead strongly correlated to something else which broadens one's individualistic thinking and freedom of conscience, thus simply allowing many people who followed a religious belief just because it's the "thing that people do here", i.e. because of social conformity and collectivism in an environment without much freedom to exercise and express one's own thoughts and freely examined conclusions. Not too many people are firm and rationally convinced believers, most just follow what they were taught without much reflection about it. Some great minds who were also believers had that very different attitude, including some cases of former atheists who became religious: they were believers because they made a completely personal investigation about it and reached their own conclusions independently. That's why most of them are hardly the most orthodox and simple-minded believers you may find.

Then, the social and economic conditions that create that situation I described above may also allow people to increase their average IQ. In a traditionally and historically atheist society with strong social cues to have no spiritual or transcendental belief at all I wouldn't be surprised if more people with high IQ would in fact be religious or at least "spiritual", because the real correlation would be "people who are not conformists and are free-minded, thus more prone to oppose the social traditions and the usual way of thinking". I think that explanation is much, much more likely than simply saying that "IQ decreases with religiosity" without any remotely logical explanation to why one thing would cause the other.

Hope and hope and more hope here. Let emotions go and follow the clues...

Just a simple fact that 99% of people follow religion of their parents, makes fallacy of their religion and mockery of spirituality. Same phenomenon as learning a language, or other traditions. Doesn't make anything true, special, right or exist. Just helps people to communicate, coexist, believe that their are special and having spirits on their side, which all of this makes their group stronger. The "end game" of human spirituality.

[Salento]

Hope and hope and more hope here. Let emotions go and follow the clues...

Just a simple fact that 99% of people follow religion of their parents, makes fallacy of their religion and mockery of spirituality. Same phenomenon as learning a language, or other traditions. Doesn't make anything true, special, right or exist. Just helps people to communicate, coexist, believe that their are special and having spirits on their side, which all of this makes their group stronger. The "end game" of human spirituality.

Merry Christmas to you Too!

fyi we’re not all a bunch of hypocrites.

[SYNCHRONIC]

Hope and hope and more hope here. Let emotions go and follow the clues...

Just a simple fact that 99% of people follow religion of their parents, makes fallacy of their religion and mockery of spirituality. Same phenomenon as learning a language, or other traditions. Doesn't make anything true, special, right or exist. Just helps people to communicate, coexist, believe that their are special and having spirits on their side, which all of this makes their group stronger. The "end game" of human spirituality.

True spirituality is the seeking of knowledge of this reality and beyond, and the advancement throughout the layers of existence, beginning with the development and nurturing of the soul/spirit. Most mainstream "religions" are nothing more than social clubs rather than anything resembling spiritual development. Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Buddhism might be the only major/widely practise religious systems that offer any real techniques or foundations for spiritual mastery.

[Ygorcs]

Hope and hope and more hope here. Let emotions go and follow the clues...

Just a simple fact that 99% of people follow religion of their parents, makes fallacy of their religion and mockery of spirituality. Same phenomenon as learning a language, or other traditions. Doesn't make anything true, special, right or exist. Just helps people to communicate, coexist, believe that their are special and having spirits on their side, which all of this makes their group stronger. The "end game" of human spirituality.

Well, regardless of that, you basically confirmed my point and hypothesis laid out above: the true correlation may be between higher IQ and much lower propensity to simply accept uncritically and unthoughtfully the usual worldview, mainstream thinking and socially enforced beliefs of the society an individual belongs to. The correlation may be simply with less social conformism and therefore more individual reasoning. A more critical, free-minded, inquisitive and curious person may naturally tend to question traditional religious beliefs more often and even get rid of spirituality as a whole if and when the inconsistencies and uncertainties of religious systems are found. Thanks for proving my point, even if you clearly let your personal feelings and opinions get in the way a bit (non-spiritual people aren't immune to that, as you must know).

[halfalp]

I'm not sure about this study or idea in general. I'm Atheist but i come from a very religious family, god just never appealed to me. I also happened to have an IQ wich makes me " gifted ". But a part my mom, a lot of people just call me Dumb. Never mind, why is this old topic up in Christmas ;D.

[Angela]

I think these studies (not the first one I have come across with this very same claim) are pretty lazy. What if lower religiosity and higher IQ are both not correlated to each other but instead strongly correlated to something else which broadens one's individualistic thinking and freedom of conscience, thus simply allowing many people who followed a religious belief just because it's the "thing that people do here", i.e. because of social conformity and collectivism in an environment without much freedom to exercise and express one's own thoughts and freely examined conclusions. Not too many people are firm and rationally convinced believers, most just follow what they were taught without much reflection about it. Some great minds who were also believers had that very different attitude, including some cases of former atheists who became religious: they were believers because they made a completely personal investigation about it and reached their own conclusions independently. That's why most of them are hardly the most orthodox and simple-minded believers you may find.

Then, the social and economic conditions that create that situation I described above may also allow people to increase their average IQ. In a traditionally and historically atheist society with strong social cues to have no spiritual or transcendental belief at all I wouldn't be surprised if more people with high IQ would in fact be religious or at least "spiritual", because the real correlation would be "people who are not conformists and are free-minded, thus more prone to oppose the social traditions and the usual way of thinking". I think that explanation is much, much more likely than simply saying that "IQ decreases with religiosity" without any remotely logical explanation to why one thing would cause the other.

It's also a function of the intersection of two things: lack of knowledge of Christian theology, and indoctrination by modern media and particularly in modern secular universities.

A higher IQ means you're more likely to go to university. If you don't have an "intellectual" understanding of religion, aren't familiar with theology and philosophy, the often specious and not very intellectual arguments of atheists can be overwhelming.

Of course, even a faith supported by knowledge can fail, not through the arguments of people, but through life lessons, or perhaps resentments.

In the end, it's about a "leap of faith". You're either comfortable making it or you're not. Or you made it, and then change your mind. :)

Or maybe it has to do with whether or not one genetically has a "spiritual" faculty. Trying to explain to someone who doesn't have it why it's important is like trying to explain to someone who can't smell why the scent of a rose is intoxicating (not modern tea bud roses, obviously).

East Asians like the Chinese, for example, who can be very smart, completely lack it. Jews, also very smart, can often be God-obsessed. It has nothing to do with IQ.

[Ygorcs]

It's also a function of the intersection of two things: lack of knowledge of Christian theology, and indoctrination by modern media and particularly in modern secular universities.

A higher IQ means you're more likely to go to university. If you don't have an "intellectual" understanding of religion, aren't familiar with theology and philosophy, the often specious and not very intellectual arguments of atheists can be overwhelming.

Of course, even a faith supported by knowledge can fail, not through the arguments of people, but through life lessons, or perhaps resentments.

In the end, it's about a "leap of faith". You're either comfortable making it or you're not. Or you made it, and then change your mind. :)

Or maybe it has to do with whether or not one genetically has a "spiritual" faculty. Trying to explain to someone who doesn't have it why it's important is like trying to explain to someone who can't smell why the scent of a rose is intoxicating (not modern tea bud roses, obviously).

East Asians like the Chinese, for example, who can be very smart, completely lack it. Jews, also very smart, can often be God-obsessed. It has nothing to do with IQ.

Nice points, I hadn't thought about that, but I completely agree that also must be considered. It's not like people with high IQ are totally devoid of subjectivity and of social influences. There is definitely a correlation (at least in the modern era), but it's not as simple as some people want to think. Sometimes I just think there is a bit of wishful thinking and perhaps not too rational clannish mentality behind all these claims that can be summed up as "hey, we are more intelligent and rational because we have no religiosity, we're not like them, we're special". They just don't want to investigate the actual deep causes of the perceived correlation because it's so comfortable to believe that if you're very smart you'll then be totally non-religious (and hopefully, who knows, the reverse too, so that people who are atheist and non-spiritual may think they're oh so much smarter and more rational than those uncritical, sheep believers).

[LeBrok]

Well, regardless of that, you basically confirmed my point and hypothesis laid out above: the true correlation may be between higher IQ and much lower propensity to simply accept uncritically and unthoughtfully the usual worldview, mainstream thinking and socially enforced beliefs of the society an individual belongs to. The correlation may be simply with less social conformism and therefore more individual reasoning. A more critical, free-minded, inquisitive and curious person may naturally tend to question traditional religious beliefs more often and even get rid of spirituality as a whole if and when the inconsistencies and uncertainties of religious systems are found. Thanks for proving my point, even if you clearly let your personal feelings and opinions get in the way a bit (non-spiritual people aren't immune to that, as you must know).

I agree with this completely, what I noticed, from your previous post, was that you used this argument almost as a proof to validate religions or existence of God, or rather not being an argument against these.
But as a matter of fact it is, the same way as people with higher IQ are having a better logic, making fewer mistakes, understand sciences better, making better life choices, perform jobs better, make more money, understand economy and financial markets, understanding human psychology, etc. Therefore in general, with better functioning logic, they will figure out more precisely if religions make sense or if spiritual world exists, or is it just a phenomenon of human brain "making tricks" on us. Statistically speaking people with higher IQ have a better chance making right conclusions about everything in life, religion including.

[aleph]

I wonder how many intelligent and unintelligent people perceive the idea of God(s) as either being impersonal or outright malevolent. Being (very) pessimistic I am more so of the latter opinion.

As for atheists having a higher average IQ, it is to be expected- you would need to be slightly more intelligent than the average Joe to hold a contrarian opinion of any kind, don't you?

Edit: Though I tend to fluctuate in my pessimism, so my view of "God" is impersonal at best and malevolent at worst.

[Pilotnok]

There must be a reasonable body of evidence for charts where the birth time was not known and for which the birth time was rectified - and then the true birth time came to light.Someone must have done a study of this....?

[Questions]

Religion is man made. It is bound up in man-made canon and memorization of philosophical sayings. Memorization isn't the mark of an intelligent person. It's good for teaching children who cannot think for themselves. Taken to its extreme, memorization kills. Having depended upon those who are standing upon the shoulders of other people, it ends the possibility of independent thought... which would, of itself, find the Creator. Putting away childish things leads to dependence upon those who consider themselves our teachers. Who among us deserves this rank?

[Joanne]

I.Q. tests only measure logical-mathematical and spatial - emotional intelligence is probably more important to success in living. Musicians and athletes have another kind of intelligence that is very valuable. Adolescents often go through a stage of questioning all the values they have been brought up with and many adolescents reject religion but come back to religious beliefs later in life.

[Angela]

I.Q. tests only measure logical-mathematical and spatial - emotional intelligence is probably more important to success in living. Musicians and athletes have another kind of intelligence that is very valuable. Adolescents often go through a stage of questioning all the values they have been brought up with and many adolescents reject religion but come back to religious beliefs later in life.

It's also a question of environment and training: what is promoted in the schools and the wider culture. The more education you have, the more you will be exposed to professors who tell you it's nonsense. Certainly, movies and tv mostly promote that point of view. Unless the belief was strongly instilled in the home and/or religious schools, religious teachings won't survive the assault.

I know a lot of brilliant, extremely accomplished, extremely devout Orthodox Jews, for example, including my mother's neurosurgeon, who became a close friend.

That's not to say that you can't still lose your faith, because you can.

I also think there might be a genetic component involved in terms of a tendency toward "spirituality" for lack of a better word, versus just a "legalistic" or a "rationale" based one.

[firetown]

One component I can think of is natural curiosity and it differs people. There are people who have very little curiosity and seek quick answers that satisfy them immediately. Then there are natural doubters who cannot rest until things make sense. When you are in a state where you believe rather than question, certain parts of your brain are no longer being used.

[real expert]

I wonder whether atheists funded this study. Don't forget secular people or atheists can BE VERY RELIGIOUS and blinded by their "faith", too. Just take a look at social media, university/college campuses and the SJW cult there. Then you'll get what I mean. Besides, when looking at history it can be observed that many highly intelligent people, the leaders of all kinds of revolutions were fanatics. Therefore, there is no correlation between Fanaticism, Extremism and a low IQ. One can rather argue that the blind followers of extremists and fanatics have a low IQ while the leaders are the smart ones. In my opinion, people often conflate wisdom with high intelligence. You can have a high IQ without being smart, in fact be and act foolish. Never underestimate a weak character, the lack of spine, the lack of real virtues and values that undermine a high intellect. Anyway, we have to distinguish between formalism, and being religious in the sense of being very spiritual and connected with God, which means having a living faith.