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Thread: Romans, Alpine Celts and Belgae : close cousins ?

  1. #26
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    Unbelievable thing for me that tribes can switch so quickly their languages!
    Why do they do it?

    I remember that Caesar and Tacitus wrote with emphasis that Germanic
    tribes are absoluty pure and that nobody from elswere should like to
    live in those ugly and unpleasant areas (Tacitus). According to Tacitus
    the Germanic tribes were autochtone and maybe without any interruption
    descendants of the reindeerhunters.

    In no area of the world you can meet so many fair haired and blue
    eyes people as the farmers and fishermen in the north of Netherlands,
    East-Frisia, Oldenburg and Jutland. More than in Sweden or Norway!
    Fair hair is a symbol of Germanic descendancy!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Unbelievable thing for me that tribes can switch so quickly their languages!
    Why do they do it?
    Countless reasons. What makes you think they switch quickly ? A Celtic tribe with a high level of bilingualism sustained for many generations could easily stop using their original language if they lose contact with other Celtic tribes and start living among Germans. Or vice versa. Migrations were very common among Celtic and Germanic tribes.

    I remember that Caesar and Tacitus wrote with emphasis that Germanic
    tribes are absoluty pure and that nobody from elswere should like to
    live in those ugly and unpleasant areas (Tacitus). According to Tacitus
    the Germanic tribes were autochtone and maybe without any interruption
    descendants of the reindeerhunters.
    How should they know ? Were they anthropologists, archaeologists and geneticists ?

    In no area of the world you can meet so many fair haired and blue
    eyes people as the farmers and fishermen in the north of Netherlands,
    East-Frisia, Oldenburg and Jutland. More than in Sweden or Norway!
    Fair hair is a symbol of Germanic descendancy!
    You can't compare a tiny region like East Frisia with a big country like Sweden. There are small enclaves in Sweden or Norway where 100% of the population is blond with blue eyes. Look at the bigger picture. Anyway fair hair and eyes most likely originated in the steppes as these features are found in pockets of populations all over Central Asia, Pakistan or Iran. If the incidence is higher in Frisia or Sweden nowadays it is due to a founder effect, genetic bottleneck or selective pressures. Germanic people expanded from a quite small Bronze Age population and are therefore among the least genetically diverse people on earth (compared to their current population). I suppose that is what you mean by "purity". Ironically (considering the Nazi obsession with racial pureness), the Jews share the same particularity. Both Scandinavians and Jews are known among geneticists for their higher incidence of genetic diseases (such as Haemochromatosis or Huntington's disease for Scandinavians, and Tay-Sachs or dysautonomia for Ashkenazi Jews). Note that excessive genetic "purity" is called consanguinity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Both Scandinavians and Jews are known among geneticists for their higher incidence of genetic diseases (such as Haemochromatosis or Huntington's disease for Scandinavians, and Tay-Sachs or dysautonomia for Ashkenazi Jews). Note that excessive genetic "purity" is called consanguinity.
    Thats interesting, Scotland has the highest number of MS cases in the world, I wonder if this has to do with in breeding within clans?

    "There appears to be a genetic element. Orkney, for instance has the highest levels in the world - it has its own MS society - and scientists are showing that it is passed down through families there. It also appears MS may be a disease we have exported to other countries. In Canada, for instance, MS is particularly high in areas to which Scots emigrated."
    Taken from the source below:

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/scotla...t-why-1.836898

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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    Thats interesting, Scotland has the highest number of MS cases in the world, I wonder if this has to do with in breeding within clans?
    The genetics component of MS is still elusive. It is generally considered to be an autoimmune disease, not a purely genetic one, because there are so many mutations involved, spread over at least 11 chromosomes, and not a single one of them is a cause of MS all by itself. That's very different from Huntington's or Tay-Sachs, for which a single SNP determines if a person is a carrier or not.

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    I suppose that the Germanic tribes arose in Scandinavia and Jutland
    about 2000 BC by intermingling with local inhabitants and neolithic farmers
    or corded people. Is that correct?

    45 years ago I read that Germanic tribes lived complitely isolated from
    the other Indo-Europeans in Scandinavia. They were the only tribes
    who were not afraid of the sea unlike the Latins and Slavic tribes.
    I was impressed by this text. So I obtained the especial idea about them and I supposed that they were descendants of the French Cro-Magnos rendeer hunters.
    Now I understand that this is an false idea and ilusion.

    But what are the mental diseases of the Scandinavians and Dutch?
    I suppose neurotism and Alzheimer? Melancholy? I suppose that this
    is typical disease of the Nordic and Faelish people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Unbelievable thing for me that tribes can switch so quickly their languages!
    Why do they do it?

    I remember that Caesar and Tacitus wrote with emphasis that Germanic
    tribes are absoluty pure and that nobody from elswere should like to
    live in those ugly and unpleasant areas (Tacitus). According to Tacitus
    the Germanic tribes were autochtone and maybe without any interruption
    descendants of the reindeerhunters.

    In no area of the world you can meet so many fair haired and blue
    eyes people as the farmers and fishermen in the north of Netherlands,
    East-Frisia, Oldenburg and Jutland. More than in Sweden or Norway!
    Fair hair is a symbol of Germanic descendancy!
    It couldnt be that the most of the germanic, had fair hair and light eyes. Because the most of the continental germanic had the haplogroup R1b1b2 and when you compare it with the studies of robert frost, you could see, that there where R1b1b2 in the prehistory was(compare south England, Wales, Cornwall and south Sweden, west Norway, Danmark, Northwestgermany also Netherlands.

    Also i think, you cant do germanic and nordic in one pot. Because the people of the nordic-bronze-age were most I1 and R1a, and became assimilated by the first germanic, which were most R1b1b2 and less R1a.
    The germanized nordic people, developed own nordic dialects and a few years later they had a own part of a germanic language, the northgermanic(nordic). Some archaeologists says, that the nordic culture isnt a germanic culture, they were only assimilated by the early germanic (pre-celts) during the iron age.

    The most of the germanic (not nordic) couldnt have fair hair and eyes.
    Its more possible, that it was half/half. So ca. 50% had brown hair, and brown eyes and ca. 50% had blond hair and blue eyes and also all possible mixtures.

    Maciamo, how do you think about that, what i sad?

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    When pertaining to Britain, one has to look at the Easterly distribution of U152's subclades. For example, L2* and L20+, are all East locales. The recent U152 paper, which concludes that U152 is found, overwhelmingly, in Southern England, must mean U152*, as, separate from L2* and L20+.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodisk View Post
    It couldnt be that the most of the germanic, had fair hair and light eyes. Because the most of the continental germanic had the haplogroup R1b1b2 and when you compare it with the studies of robert frost, you could see, that there where R1b1b2 in the prehistory was(compare south England, Wales, Cornwall and south Sweden, west Norway, Danmark, Northwestgermany also Netherlands.

    Also i think, you cant do germanic and nordic in one pot. Because the people of the nordic-bronze-age were most I1 and R1a, and became assimilated by the first germanic, which were most R1b1b2 and less R1a.
    The germanized nordic people, developed own nordic dialects and a few years later they had a own part of a germanic language, the northgermanic(nordic). Some archaeologists says, that the nordic culture isnt a germanic culture, they were only assimilated by the early germanic (pre-celts) during the iron age.

    The most of the germanic (not nordic) couldnt have fair hair and eyes.
    Its more possible, that it was half/half. So ca. 50% had brown hair, and brown eyes and ca. 50% had blond hair and blue eyes and also all possible mixtures.

    Maciamo, how do you think about that, what i sad?
    Blondism (light brown to light blond hair) in Germanics has been terribly exaggerated through the years. The native population of Germany has about 60% medium to dark brown hair. Light eyes (blue, grey, green) probably total ~ 50%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodisk View Post
    It couldnt be that the most of the germanic, had fair hair and light eyes. Because the most of the continental germanic had the haplogroup R1b1b2 and when you compare it with the studies of robert frost, you could see, that there where R1b1b2 in the prehistory was(compare south England, Wales, Cornwall and south Sweden, west Norway, Danmark, Northwestgermany also Netherlands.

    Also i think, you cant do germanic and nordic in one pot. Because the people of the nordic-bronze-age were most I1 and R1a, and became assimilated by the first germanic, which were most R1b1b2 and less R1a.
    The germanized nordic people, developed own nordic dialects and a few years later they had a own part of a germanic language, the northgermanic(nordic). Some archaeologists says, that the nordic culture isnt a germanic culture, they were only assimilated by the early germanic (pre-celts) during the iron age.

    The most of the germanic (not nordic) couldnt have fair hair and eyes.
    Its more possible, that it was half/half. So ca. 50% had brown hair, and brown eyes and ca. 50% had blond hair and blue eyes and also all possible mixtures.

    Maciamo, how do you think about that, what i sad?
    There is no way. Germany has about 30% of blondism. See this study

    • Southern Germany 18.4-24.5
    • Central Germany 25.3 - 32.5
    • Northern Germany 33.5 - 43.3
    • Germany whole 31.8%

    Here it is at page 14:
    http://ia340930.us.archive.org/2/ite...00serguoft.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Blondism (light brown to light blond hair) in Germanics has been terribly exaggerated through the years. The native population of Germany has about 60% medium to dark brown hair. Light eyes (blue, grey, green) probably total ~ 50%.
    Yes, i know, im a german and i have medium brown hair and green eyes with brown and yellow(look at my profil picture).

    The studies of robert frost, support that what you sad ;).

    But light eyes also be some, which have a medium or great part of light pigments, with brown pigments. So hazel, amber, greybrown and also my eye color, greenbrown are light, because you see the light pigments good, but also the light brown pigments.
    When my pupils are very small, my eyes are light green, but when the pupils are very big, it looks like amber.
    But why shouldnt they be light, when this eyes have a (not small) part light pigments?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Theodisk View Post
    Yes, i know, im a german and i have medium brown hair and green eyes with brown and yellow(look at my profil picture).
    The studies of robert frost, support that what you sad ;).
    But light eyes also be some, which have a medium or great part of light pigments, with brown pigments. So hazel, amber, greybrown and also my eye color, greenbrown are light, because you see the light pigments good, but also the light brown pigments.
    When my pupils are very small, my eyes are light green, but when the pupils are very big, it looks like amber.
    But why shouldnt they be light, when this eyes have a (not small) part light pigments?!
    Then we have to completely revisit what "light eyes" really mean. However, the big problem is that physical anthropologists have never attempted comprehensive, highly structured scientific field studies to establish light eyes percentages that approach reality. Perhaps they are reluctant to do so because such an effort may be perceived as racist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Then we have to completely revisit what "light eyes" really mean. However, the big problem is that physical anthropologists have never attempted comprehensive, highly structured scientific field studies to establish light eyes percentages that approach reality. Perhaps they are reluctant to do so because such an effort may be perceived as racist.
    Yes, i know what you mean. Thanks for your post .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    There is no way. Germany has about 30% of blondism. See this study

    • Southern Germany 18.4-24.5
    • Central Germany 25.3 - 32.5
    • Northern Germany 33.5 - 43.3
    • Germany whole 31.8%

    Here it is at page 14:
    http://ia340930.us.archive.org/2/ite...00serguoft.pdf
    I can't find it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Unbelievable thing for me that tribes can switch so quickly their languages!
    Why do they do it?

    I remember that Caesar and Tacitus wrote with emphasis that Germanic
    tribes are absoluty pure and that nobody from elswere should like to
    live in those ugly and unpleasant areas (Tacitus). According to Tacitus
    the Germanic tribes were autochtone and maybe without any interruption
    descendants of the reindeerhunters.

    In no area of the world you can meet so many fair haired and blue
    eyes people as the farmers and fishermen in the north of Netherlands,
    East-Frisia, Oldenburg and Jutland. More than in Sweden or Norway!
    Fair hair is a symbol of Germanic descendancy!
    You are clearly getting carried away...

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    "As far as I know the title Germanicus was honorary and first given to Nero Claudius Drusus (and his family) for his efforts in Germania as a military commander. This kind of nomenclature resembles that of Publius Cornelius Scipio, who was named Scipio Africanus after his defeat Hannibal. Germanicus and Africanus are then rather examples of victory titles*; they do not indicate kinship or ancestry."

    Sorry, The above is a quote from ANLEF but I messed up and couldn't figure out how to get it in Italics. (Sorry, Anlef!)

    I would definitely go with Germanicus being an honorary title for Drusus since he would be recognized for his punitive expedition. I believe that Scipio was the first to get such a title. Numidicus was also given to one of the Metelli for actions in the Jugurthine War. Drusus' expedition seems to have been a result of the disaster in the Teutoburg Forest. Augustus had lost the three legions under Varrus. He so stung by this that he decided to abandon any further attempts at conquest in Germania. Roman honor, though, required that something be done about it. Tacitus gives a good account of the expedition by my measure.

    Although I would agree that often the lines were blurred when we are trying to figure out Celto-Germanic, Germano-Celtic, etc., I tend to go with the Suebi (Marcommanic, Quadi, later Bavarians) as being Germans.
    They may have been culturally influenced by Celts as they did have Kings on more or less a regular basis, but they appear fall on the German side as far as being overall more cultural, ethnically, and much more linguistically German.

    As far as the more mixed tribes go, I would think more along the lines of the Rhine frontier, especially after Gaul itself was brought under Roman rule. It would be a reasonable assumption that many would have crossed the Rhine to remain free, especially when we think of the young, unmarried Gaesatae types. Some hold that the Chatti, Cherusci, and the later amalgamated mega-tribe of the Franks may have had a signifigant admixture of Celts.

    The word Germani appears to have been something that certain groups of Celts used to describe themselves, possible intending to convey that they were the real thing. It is interesting that the words Germani and Teuton, both now used exclusively to describe those whom we today recognize as German, both seem to originally have referred to Celts. Germani and Germania seem to have been used a by the Romans more as a geographic term to denote those who live in that area regardless of ethnicity and the Tueton name goes back to one of the tribes later defeated by Marius.

    I would like to hear from anyone who may be aware of a common word or name that Germanic types may have used to describe themselves. I have to think that a relatively cohesive group like they were would have had something that they used.


    I hope that this post does not ignite a firestorm.
    Last edited by Regulus; 08-12-10 at 17:50.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    Although I would agree that often the lines were blurred when we are trying to figure out Celto-Germanic, Germano-Celtic, etc., I tend to go with the Suebi (Marcommanic, Quadi, later Bavarians) as being Germans.
    They may have been culturally influenced by Celts as they did have Kings on more or less a regular basis, but they appear fall on the German side as far as being overall more cultural, ethnically, and much more linguistically German.
    Suebi is good candidate as in Slavic languages word "Svabe" is used as not formal word for Germans, while formal one is Nemci (derived from "not speaking")
    However, I think word Germans is also initially related to haplogroup I carriers, as province in Persia in Iran carries name Kerman/Germania/Zermanya and looks to me as possible origin of haplogroup I...

    http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpos...3&postcount=25

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    Some hold that the Chatti, Cherusci, and the later amalgamated mega-tribe of the Franks may have had a signifigant admixture of Celts.
    Franks origin from Sicambri, which is term probably related to earlier Cimbri
    both terms Sicambri and Cimbri bare resemblance to what seems to be pattern for tribal name of haplogroup I people (Swedes, Suebi, Srbi (Serbs), Sarbans, Sardinians...)

    other tribes whose tribal names might be derived from common haplogroup I tribal name pattern might be Sherdana (sea people), Scordisci, Siraces, Sarmatians, Cimbri, Cimmerians...


    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    The word Germani appears to have been something that certain groups of Celts used to describe themselves, possible intending to convey that they were the real thing. It is interesting that the words Germani and Teuton, both now used exclusively to describe those whom we today recognize as German, both seem to originally have referred to Celts. Germani and Germania seem to have been used a by the Romans more as a geographic term to denote those who live in that area regardless of ethnicity and the Tueton name goes back to one of the tribes later defeated by Marius.
    can you explain why do you think that words Teuton and Germani are originally related to Celts?

    I think Teuton just meant "people" ... as similar word for it existed in proto-IE, and as e.g. in Illyrian word 'teuta' had that meaning ( http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm )...

    word Germania was used by Romans indeed as geographic term, but also as cultural term... difference used to classify between Sarmatian and Germanic tribes for Roman historians was that Germanic people are those that live in households, while Sarmatian people are those who live as nomads... thus, for Roman historians any Celtic (or whatever origin) non-nomadic tribe on territory north of Roman empire would also be called Germanic...

    However, as explained above, I do believe that word Germani origins from haplogroups I1 and I2b1, perhaps from all I haplogroups initially....

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    Firstly, I am happy that there is discussion instead of the firestorm that I feared.

    Attributing a Slavic origin to the Suevi is interesting, and I would like to hear more of it. At this point I think it is a big push to go with anything other than German. At the time that history becomes aware of the Suevi, we don’t have the Slavs anywhere near the Rhine/Danube angle yet. The Romans, in my opinion, would have been able to recognize that there was something appreciably different in these people from those they knew as Germans had the Suevi actually been Slavic. We must call to mind that they did have considerable contact with the Marcomanni and Quadi, which were Suevic tribes. (someone help – was the Marcomannic King spelled Maroduus?) Also, the Bavarians are believed by many to be a remnant of the Suevi left behind after many left to raid and later settle in Hispana. These were days before the Slavs began their big expansion.

    I was aware of most accounts of Frankish origins. I meant to add that there was a good chance that they had a decent amount of Celts who may have settled among them and also became Franks.

    My position on the words Germanni and Teuton is based on how the words are treated in classical sources. As far as differentiating them from Iranians, Germans and Celts were both described as “unmounted Scythians” by the Greeks early on.

    Germanni was a term kind of thrown about by many peoples such as the Belgae. To them, they appeared to be saying that they were the real thing.(Like our Germane) The Romans knew of the area they called Germania, but did not seem to think that it was peopled only by those we know to be Germans until the time of Tacitus. There was a group of Celts that some historians refer to as the "Germanni group of Northern Celts."

    Teutons, I agree, has a root word that is common among the IE peoples. My position is that, in this case, it is more likely that the Teutones of the great invasions defeated by Marius, were believed by many to have originated in that area and therefore were most likely the main cause of other groups from there being called "Teutonic". Recall that they are often referred to, along with the Cimbri, as “Germanni”. (I think it would be a good idea for someone to start a thread on that specific topic. It would probably get a lot of input)
    The Romans mostly used terms such as Germanni in earlier days, along with Teutons to the point that it was established for that region by the time that those we know as Germans began their long and drawn out expansions. I am not knowledgeable on the German language, but it was my understanding that the Modern Germans use “Teutonic” to apply to speakers of the Low German languages (any help on that point?)


    As far as Haplogroups go, I know very little and I want to learn about those. That is my main reason for being here. Please do not assume that I am anti-Slav or anything like that. I am probably more interested in the Slavic peoples than any other IE group. I personally believe that Slavs may very well represent the one subgroup that in the main has the least amount of non-IE ancestry.
    Last edited by Regulus; 09-12-10 at 20:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    Firstly, I am happy that there is discussion instead of the firestorm that I feared.

    Attributing a Slavic origin to the Suevi is interesting, and I would like to hear more of it. At this point I think it is a big push to go with anything other than German. At the time that history becomes aware of the Suevi, we don’t have the Slavs anywhere near the Rhine/Danube angle yet. The Romans, in my opinion, would have been able to recognize that there was something appreciably different in these people from those they knew as Germans had the Suevi actually been Slavic. We must call to mind that they did have considerable contact with the Marcomanni and Quadi, which were Suevic tribes. (someone help – was the Marcomannic King spelled Maroduus?) Also, the Bavarians are believed by many to be a remnant of the Suevi left behind after many left to raid and later settle in Hispana. These were days before the Slavs began their big expansion.
    I did not attribute Slavic origin to Suebi... on contrary, I claimed that Suebi are key Germanic component among Germans....

    What I tried to say is that Slavic people tend to use tribal name derived from name of Suebi for all Germans... which means not that Suebi were Slavic, but
    that people from whom Slavic people originate did see it as German = Suebi

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    My position on the words Germanni and Teuton is based on how the words are treated in classical sources. As far as differentiating them from Iranians, Germans and Celts were both described as “unmounted Scythians” by the Greeks early on.
    Perhaps they were both Scythian people (though at the moment it seems that Scythians at least in Asia were dominantly R1a carriers)...

    But I fail to see how would that in any way imply that tribal names Germani and Teutons do in any way correspond to Celtic people rather than to Germanic tribes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    Germanni was a term kind of thrown about by many peoples such as the Belgae. To them, they appeared to be saying that they were the real thing.(Like our Germane) The Romans knew of the area they called Germania, but did not seem to think that it was peopled only by those we know to be Germans until the time of Tacitus. There was a group of Celts that some historians refer to as the "Germanni group of Northern Celts."
    that group were obviously just Celts who lived in Germania and thus Germanni group of northern Celts... that is where all R1b in Germany comes from... But the name Germania comes from real Germans and those are I think tribes like Suebi, Cimbri, Swedes..


    Teutons, I agree, has a root word that is common among the IE peoples. My position is that, in this case, it is more likely that the Teutones of the great invasions defeated by Marius, were believed by many to have originated in that area and therefore were most likely the main cause of other groups from there being called "Teutonic". Recall that they are often referred to, along with the Cimbri, as “Germanni”. (I think it would be a good idea for someone to start a thread on that specific topic. It would probably get a lot of input)
    Teutons, Cimbri, Goths, Suebi, Swedes... are tribal groups... Germanic is name on higher level that is about their common origin... what is so hard to understand there?


    As far as Haplogroups go, I know very little and I want to learn about those. That is my main reason for being here. Please do not assume that I am anti-Slav or anything like that. I am probably more interested in the Slavic peoples than any other IE group. I personally believe that Slavs may very well represent the one subgroup that in the main has the least amount of non-IE ancestry.
    I do not think that you are anti-Slavic...
    I never claimed Suebi has anything to do with Slavic people....
    What I claim is that there is common origin of haplogroups I1, I2b1, I2a1 and I2a2 that goes tens thousands years in past, and that nations who dominantly origin from that people did keep tribal names that are derived from same word...

    that split between haplogroups probably happened much before Germanic/Slavic/Celtic cultures evolved from proto-IE people... so when I speak of common origin of tribal names Serbs (I2a2), Suebi (I1), Swedes (I1), Sardinians (I2a1), I do not talk of Germanic or Slavic cultures, as that probably did not exist in times when haplogroups did split...

    however, tribal name Germani might have existed, as province in Persia in Iran that shows traces that (at least on a map) look as possible origin of haplogroup I, has name Kerman/Germania/Zermanya...

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    Ok, I apologize for misunderstanding your point about Slavs using the word for Suevi to apply to Germans in general. My fault, then.

    I am perfectly fine with you disagreeing with me on the origins and early meanings of the words Germanni and Teuton. There has been considerable disagreement on this topic by eminent published historians, so we can’t be surprised that you and I have taken up different sides in this case. I would have to hold, though, that the name Germania predates any appreciable knowledge of classical people about those we know to distinctly have been Germans. The Belgae, who described themselves as Germans,(Cesear -Gallic War) are known to us to have been Celts. I will allow that they could have meant either that they were originally from Germania or that they were the "real thing". Maybe more discussion and input from you and others will tilt me over to your side.

    My original reply was mainly to clarify my opinion that Suevi would fall within the German group as opposed to Celts. It looks like you and I were both in agreement on that point.


    I can’t comment at all on the Haplogroups. I came across this forum while looking for answers on R1b, R1a, and the I groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    I would have to hold, though, that the name Germania predates any appreciable knowledge of classical people about those we know to distinctly have been Germans. The Belgae, who described themselves as Germans,(Cesear -Gallic War) are known to us to have been Celts. I will allow that they could have meant either that they were originally from Germania or that they were the "real thing". Maybe more discussion and input from you and others will tilt me over to your side.
    Belgae were Germans in sense of living in area of Germania. By origins they probably were Celts. However, area of Germania has likely originally got its name from people who were Germanic. I think that most of Celtic people in Germania probably moved to north only after being pushed by spread of Roman Empire...
    I do believe that this large influence of Celtic tribes is represented in gene pool of Germany with R1b haplogroup, while original Germans are represented with I1 and I2b1 haplogroups...

    Btw. in case you wondered, I am not Dutch... I just currently live in Netherlands...

    Quote Originally Posted by Regulus View Post
    I can’t comment at all on the Haplogroups. I came across this forum while looking for answers on R1b, R1a, and the I groups.
    A very small part of genes is transfered directly from father to son. It is possible to isolate and analyse that part. That is how it is established that all so far tested humans have shared ancestry. Mutations (random deviation from original value) on that part of genes happens as anywhere else in genetic code. However, when there is a mutation on this particular part of gene, than altered DNA sequence is transfered from father to son as well.

    Thus, if we know that part of gene of every man who ever lived, we could easily sort them in a father-son hierarchy. Even with limited number of samples it is possible to reconstruct to some extent this tree. Branches in this tree are given names according to letters in alphabet (A, B, C, D,E,..I, ...R......), their subbranches got extra digit, subbranches of subbranches got letters again... This stream of letters and digits that represent particular branch in this tree we call Y-DNA haplogroup.


    Now, people in western Europe are predominantly R1b, people in east Europe are predominantly R1a. People in Scandinavia in addition to R1a and R1b whose zones of influence are overlapping there have dominant I1 haplogroup, Germans have very strong R1b, I1 and I2b, while Slavic people of Balkans have dominant I2a2, and people in Sardina have dominant I2a1. Haplogroup G is for instance very strong in Caucasus and spread in few percentages accross Europe. Haplogroup E-V13 is strong in south Balkan and spread accross most of Europe.

    Assumption of many people, and I belong there, is that R1b is very related to spread of Celtic people, while I1 and I2b1 are very related to spread of Germanic people...

    e.g. according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups

    Dutch 70.4% R1b 3.7% R1a 26.7% I 8% E-V13
    Germans 47.9% R1b 8.1% R1a 37.5% I 6.2% E-V13
    French 52.2%R1b 0% R1a 17.4% I 8% E-V13
    Spanish 68% R1b 2% R1a 10% E-V13
    ...

    alternatively, you can look at data per countries at Eupedia site as well
    http://www.eupedia.com/europe/europe...logroups.shtml

    I give preference to wikipedia table as it lists the scientific paper that is source of data, which is not the case on Eupedia site...


    keep in mind that the data from different sources vary as scientific researches are typically done on relatively small number of samples (e.g. 100 to 150)

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    Thanks for the lesson on Haplogroups. I have only been on the forum for a short while but I can say with certainty that I have gleaned more in that time than I knew prior to joining.

    I had been looking around after running into a whole lot of sites that were championing the cause of any and all R1b coming from the original inhabitants of Europe. I am of Italian and Irish ancestry and it just did not make sense to me that, if this were true, that so much of the Celtic languages became spoken is Ireland, etc. without a significant IE component. Invaders who constitute a small minority rarely succeed in getting another population to take on their tongue lock, stock, and barrel. It is usually the opposite in that case. In the example of Gaelic, it appears that only some grammatical rules survived from those who lived there prior to IE people showing up. After coming across this forum, particularly an article from Maciamo where the older branches of R1b and the branches that came from it were described and mapped out, I felt that this was the place to be.
    It all started to make sense from that point.







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    Hmm.. AFAIK the name German is in etymology derived from Ger-Man, what means a man with a spear.
    In the same way the name Gerhard or Gerard means "strong with a spear".

    In Dutch "geer" is an old word for a pike formed piece in a cloth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Hmm.. AFAIK the name German is in etymology derived from Ger-Man, what means a man with a spear.
    In the same way the name Gerhard or Gerard means "strong with a spear".
    In Dutch "geer" is an old word for a pike formed piece in a cloth.
    this makes lot of sense in fact...

    I think that it is very possible that tens of thousands years ago proto-tribe made of haplogroup I carriers was initially distinguished from other tribes by the skilled usage of spears...

    in Latin, spear is word "Sibyna"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyna

    the word "Sibyna" meaning spear is also one of only few preserved illyrian words... already, some time ago while reading preserved illyrian words I was wondering could word "Sibyna" be related to origin of Serb tribal name...

    this is direct link between linguistic origin of words Germanic and of words that I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern - Swedes (I1), Suebi (I1), Srbi (Serbs - I2a2), Sarbans (I?), Sardinians(I2a1) implying with the pattern grouping that all those tribal names are derived from the same source...

    similarly, word "Sarissa"/ "Sarisa" is about using long spears in battles e.g. by Macedonian phalanx (earlier dory spear was somewhat shorther)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarissa



    in fact, Dory meaning spear, is perhaps origin of tribal name for Greek Dorians (e.g. later Spartans and ancient Macedonians)...
    about origin of Dorian name:
    A second popular derivation was given by the French linguist, Émile Boisacq, from the same root, but from Greek δόρυ (doru) 'spear-shaft' (which was made of wood); i.e., "the people of the spear" or "spearmen", emphasizing the warrior ferocity of the Dorians.[9]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians

    in fact, let's check whether areas settled by Dorians are hotspots of haplogroup I in Greece...

    looking at data collected by Dienekes from 3 scientific papers
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05...aplogroup.html

    haplogroup I hotspots are:
    Agrinion 23.8% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrinion)
    Serrai 36% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrai)
    Thessaloniki 20% ancient Macedonia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki)
    Rethymnon 22.7% (Crete http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rethymnon)
    Mitylene 18,5% (island near Turkey http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitylene)
    Lerna/Franchthi 21,2% (east Peloponese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myloi,_Argolis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchthi)

    and Dorians lived in: Crete, southeast Peloponese, area around Agrinion...

    http://mkatz.web.wesleyan.edu/thucyd...re/sixty_f.htm

    Herodotus also clearly put ancient Macedonians among Dorians...
    Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.
    http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancie...us-history.txt

    only Mitylene on Lesbos island looks as outlier.. all other hotspots of haplogroup I seems to clearly match Dorian settlements.. Lesbos settlement might be I haplogroup not related to Dorians...

    I would also add that Sarmatians (whom I consider to be likely dominantly of I2a2 haplogroup) are well known for their spears (while Scythians are well known for their arrows)

    e.g. see page 119 verse 150 in book of Seneca
    http://books.google.com/books?id=tpD...matian&f=false

    that mentions Sarmatians by spear, Scythians by arrows...
    Last edited by how yes no 2; 13-12-10 at 23:42.

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    Well.. A spear can be used in different ways.
    And as a consequence different tactics that go with it.

    But the main difference with a sword and shield is, the spear is easier to make.

    Different methods..

    The use of spears pointing towards cavalry is well known.
    The back end of the spear is also pointed so it can easily be stuck in the soil.

    The use of a spear as a close combat weapon. Hands in the middle of the spear. Use like a rifle with bajonet.

    Use as a swinging weapon. The warrior swings the spear round in circles.

    Of course spears are also accompanied by swordsmen and archers.

    The throwing of a heavy spear is rather stupid.
    The enemy can throw the thing back at you.

    The Romans used the pilum only to penetrate and immobilize the shields of their enemies.
    The iron point would bend when thrown, so becoming rather useless for the enemy to throw back.

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    Good mention of the Pilum - It should be noted, though, that the bending or breaking of the shaft was a design that is attributed to Marius's modification. Prior to that, Pilum were used to immobilize or kill. Remember that, at the time when they were changing tactics from spearmen in longer formations to manipular tactics with heavy and light javelins, they were creating a force better able to deal with onrushing Celts, a number of whom would not have shields. On many occasions the Romans inflicted tremendous casualties on naked Gaesatae, who would have at most a shield and sword. In the days before Javelin use, the Roman army resembled something closer to that of Hoplites. In its really early days, it was probably indistinguishable from a Hoplite army.
    The bending or breaking design (basically a shear pin) was brought about during the days of the middle of the second century BCE (Cimbri and Teutones).

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