Romans, Alpine Celts and Belgae : close cousins ?

[how yes no 2]

this makes lot of sense in fact...

I think that it is very possible that tens of thousands years ago proto-tribe made of haplogroup I carriers was initially distinguished from other tribes by the skilled usage of spears...

in Latin, spear is word "Sibyna"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibyna

the word "Sibyna" meaning spear is also one of only few preserved illyrian words... already, some time ago while reading preserved illyrian words I was wondering could word "Sibyna" be related to origin of Serb tribal name...

this is direct link between linguistic origin of words Germanic and of words that I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern - Swedes (I1), Suebi (I1), Srbi (Serbs - I2a2), Sarbans (I?), Sardinians(I2a1) implying with the pattern grouping that all those tribal names are derived from the same source...

similarly, word "Sarissa"/ "Sarisa" is about using long spears in battles e.g. by Macedonian phalanx (earlier dory spear was somewhat shorther)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarissa...

actually, the name from which tribal names of haplogroup I derive might have had religious connotation....

a possible match among Slavic deities would be this goddess:

Živa, also Šiva, Siva, Siwa, Żiwia, Sieba or Razivia, was the Slavic goddess of love and fertility. She was worshipped throughout what is now Poland, the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Germany (and especially the Elbe (Labe) river valley), before Christianity expanded into the area. Her name means "living, being, existing." Sieba's consort was Siebog, her male equivalent.

both tribal name of Suebi and Serbs might be derived from name of Sieba goddess of love, marriage, fertility...

phenomena of deriving tribal/nation name from name of goddess we have in the case of Ireland, so it was not unusual to do so...

In Irish mythology, Ériu (Irish pronunciation: [ˈeːrʲu]; modern Irish Éire), daughter of Ernmas of the Tuatha Dé Danann, was the eponymous matron goddess of Ireland. Her husband was Mac Gréine (‘Son of the Sun’).[1]
The English name for Ireland comes from the name Ériu and the Germanic (Old Norse or Old English) word land.
The fact that Ériu is represented as goddess of Ireland, she is often interpreted as a modern day personification of Ireland, although since the name "Ériu" is the older Irish form of the word Ireland, her modern name is often modified to "Éire" or "Erin" to suit a modern form.
The University of Wales' reconstructed Proto-Celtic lexicon gives *Φīwerjon- (nominative singular Φīwerjō) as the Proto-Celtic etymology of this name.[4] This Celtic form implies Proto-Indo-European *piHwerjon-, likely related to the adjectival stem *piHwer- "fat" (cf. Sanskrit pīvan, f. pīvarī and by-form pīvara, "fat, full, abounding") hence meaning "fat land" or "land of abundance", applied at an early date to the island of Ireland. The Proto-Celtic form became *īweriū [5] in Q-Celtic (Proto-Goidelic). ...

lol, fat, full, abounding...
obviously, it is about fertility as well...
so, it was likely also godess of love, marriage and fertility...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89riu

[how yes no 2]

The word Germani appears to have been something that certain groups of Celts used to describe themselves, possible intending to convey that they were the real thing. It is interesting that the words Germani and Teuton, both now used exclusively to describe those whom we today recognize as German, both seem to originally have referred to Celts. Germani and Germania seem to have been used a by the Romans more as a geographic term to denote those who live in that area regardless of ethnicity and the Tueton name goes back to one of the tribes later defeated by Marius.

I would like to hear from anyone who may be aware of a common word or name that Germanic types may have used to describe themselves. I have to think that a relatively cohesive group like they were would have had something that they used.


I hope that this post does not ignite a firestorm.

Now the parts beyond the Rhenus, immediately after the country of the Celti, slope towards the east and are occupied by the Germans, who, though they vary slightly from the Celtic stock in that they are wilder, taller, and have yellower hair, are in all other respects similar, for in build, habits, and modes of life they are such as I have said9 the Celti are. And I also think that it was for this reason that the Romans assigned to them the name “Germani,” as though they wished to indicate thereby that they were “genuine” Galatae, for in the language of the Romans “germani” means “genuine.”10 [3]

Strabo
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ok=7:chapter=1

Ok, so Strabo thinks that Germans is not self-identity tribal name, but name used by Romans to pinpoint real, genuine, Celts and not assimilated ones...well, we see it today as well...Germans do not call themselves Germans...they call themselves Deutch

[Regulus]

I first came across this topic a number of years ago while reading The Conquest of Gaul where the Belgae are described as referring to themselves as Germans. I can't remember if Caesar was able to figure out why. I'll have to read it again.
Thank you for that post, I need to get a copy of Strabo myself.

[Reinaert]

Be aware that names can be tricky to depend on.

As I said before "german" is a man with a spear. Part of the original Celtic tribes could have used that tactics in areas where there was a lot of wood, and less iron. I don't have to explain how effective a short spear can be. The use is comparable with a rifle with fixed bayonet.

So there are the " germans" with a spear, which could also be Celts.
And there are "saxons" who have a short sword. They might have the same tactics as a standard Roman soldier.
Then we would also have other groups that use a bow.

In my area, the name Taxandria can both mean "Right side of the river", but also the land where the Taxus grows. A tree that has very good wood to produce a strong bow.

A modern example of incorrect name giving is the name for my region.
I am from Brabant, the southern part of The Netherlands.
The country is often referred to as "Holland".
The Dutch as a people live in "The Netherlands", and Holland is just a part of it. It would be the same as if we would call people from the USA " New Yorkers" or "Yankees".

I know that a lot of citizens of the USA hate to be called a Yankee.

BTW Deutschland means "land of the people you can understand" and Dutch is the English version of that meaning. The Netherlands and Germany, and also France once were part of the same empire.

[Pater]

the Romans conquest of Gaul was more like the final part of the unification process of the Italo-Celtic tribes.

Seriously you are kidding me right? It meant the slaughter of thousands of Kelts. The Lions in amphitheater feasted on Celtic meats.

Ancient Romans were ofcourse Greco-Roman, similar culture, religion, very close languages. And probably appearance. Which would mean the Indo-European Balkan/Greek type.

Sure after the collapse of the original Roman empire the country was invaded by the Celts we all know that. But don't put them so close as you like. Don't let Italian historians read these strange theories of yours.

[Pater]

The Celts' last stand; Remains of 'warriors killed by Romans' are found in a mass grave.(News)

Publication Daily Mail (London)
Byline: Luke Salkeld
THEY died, gruesomely, at the hands of the Roman army, launched into eternity by the swift removal of their heads from their bodies.
For 2,000 years, the bones of the young men lay undisturbed and forgotten beneath the soil of a Dorset hillside.
But now the land has given up its secrets after work began on building an [pounds sterling]87million relief road.
So far, 45 skulls have been found in a mass grave measuring 20ft in diameter. Another part of the pit contains torsos and leg bones.
The decapitated skeletons, found on Ridgeway Hill near Weymouth, are believed by archaeologists to date from the Iron Age. …

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-201662410.html

[Pater]

http://www.clannada.org/time_390bce.php

The Senonian Tribe of Celts was by now firmly established in the Po Valley. The Clusians (Etruscans) were fearful of the Celtic expansion, and asked Rome for help. Rome had no real ties to Clusium, but had been hearing about the Celts, and was also concerned about their expansion. Therefore, the Romans sent three envoys from the Fabii family to mediate between the Clusians and the Celts.
According to one source (Gerhard Herm), the Celts met with the Roman envoys and agreed to not wage war in exchange for land. The Clusians refused, and the Celts began fighting. The Clusians then got assistance from one of the Roman envoys, Quintis Fabius, who killed a Celtic chief. Another source (Peter Beresford Ellis) states that the Romans were not there to mediate at all, but actually to help the Clusians fight the Celts, and that it was Ambustus Fabius who killed the Celtic chief.

[Pater]

Diodorus notes that: Their aspect is terrifying...They are very tall in stature, with rippling muscles under clear white skin. Their hair is blond, but not naturally so: they bleach it, to this day, artificially, washing it in lime and combing it back from their foreheads. They look like wood-demons, their hair thick and shaggy like a horse's mane. Some of them are clean-shaven, but others - especially those of high rank, shave their cheeks but leave a moustache that covers the whole mouth and, when they eat and drink, acts like a sieve, trapping particles of food...The way they dress is astonishing: they wear brightly coloured and embroidered shirts, with trousers called bracae and cloaks fastened at the shoulder with a brooch, heavy in winter, light in summer. These cloaks are striped or checkered in design, with the separate checks close together and in various colours.

[The Celts] wear bronze helmets with figures picked out on them, even horns, which made them look even taller than they already are...while others cover themselves with breast-armour made out of chains. But most content themselves with the weapons nature gave them: they go naked into battle...Weird, discordant horns were sounded, [they shouted in chorus with their] deep and harsh voices, they beat their swords rhythmically against their shields.
Ordinary Celtic soldiers, often naked except for golden neck torcs, worked themselves into a fury before entering into battle and then fought wildly like beasts. After battle a victorious Celt would ride off with the heads of slain enemies dangling from the neck of his horse. Later, the heads would be nailed to the doors of their homes or embalmed with cedar oil in order to be publicly displayed. Typically, this preservation treatment of heads was reserved for distinguished, high-ranking enemies. Diodorus also describes how the Celts cut off their enemies' heads and nailed them over the doors of their huts, as Diodorus states:
In exactly the same way as hunters do with their skulls of the animals they have slain...they preserved the heads of their most high-ranking victims in cedar oil, keeping them carefully in wooden boxes. - Diodorus Siculus, History.

[Reinaert]

Haha.. Typical Roman propaganda. By telling the Celts were enormous enemies, they pumped up their own self esteem.
The Romans were interested only in one thing: Loot.
Especially the gold the Celts had.

[Chronicle]

I just have one question
The Romans are probably the second biggest ethnic group in France after the Gauls. The Celts are described as tall, pale, fair haired, and bigger than the Romans, who are smaller, dark skinned haired and eyed. If the Romans were so closely related to the Celts, then why is there such a substantial amount of Mediterranean blood in France? That blood being widely regarded as Roman. Shouldn't France be twice as Celtic genetically instead of Gallo-Roman?

[Angela]

I just have one question
The Romans are probably the second biggest ethnic group in France after the Gauls. The Celts are described as tall, pale, fair haired, and bigger than the Romans, who are smaller, dark skinned haired and eyed. If the Romans were so closely related to the Celts, then why is there such a substantial amount of Mediterranean blood in France? That blood being widely regarded as Roman. Shouldn't France be twice as Celtic genetically instead of Gallo-Roman?

The Romans, the Gauls and every other ancient population in Europe is made up of differing proportions of three main ancestral populations.

Read Lazardis et al 2014 or the preprint from 2013 including all of the supplement

See:
Attachment 6711

Also read any of the Lucotte et al papers on pigmentation.

It's a good idea to use the search engine here too.

[PHXHawk]

Do we know with certainty what the original Romans looked like, as far as stature and complexion? What effect on their appearance did the migration of people from all over the Empire to Italy have? Then there is the fact that the army eventually became largely Germanic. It seems that we might be wrong to think of Caesar looking much like a present day Italian.

[Angela]

Here we go again.

These Romans don't look Italian to you????? What do they look like? Germans?







[IMG][/IMG]

[Jovialis]

Do we know with certainty what the original Romans looked like, as far as stature and complexion? What effect on their appearance did the migration of people from all over the Empire to Italy have? Then there is the fact that the army eventually became largely Germanic. It seems that we might be wrong to think of Caesar looking much like a present day Italian.

Actually, we have a good idea of what Caesar looked like. I'm not exactly referring to that idiotic recreation, per se. But we learned that he indeed had dark eyes and hair, which is obviously more characteristic of Southern Europeans. Julius Caesar, a Roman patrician, was not a Germanic.

Moreover, light features does not necessarily indicate the person is "germanic".

Personally, my guess is that the Romans, are more or less similar to the people of Central Italy. Their ethnogenesis is probably a merger of SBA and ABA, along with the previous inhabitants of the area (i.e farmers)

[gandalf]

Historical linguist Brigitte Bauer has brought up substantial evidence* that Gaulish and Latin were highly similar languages.

Nicholas Ostler has argued** in the same sense, saying that Latin could only have replaced Gaulish so quickly if the grammatical structure was (nearly) identical and the two languages shared enough similarity in vocabulary to allow for a word-to-word replacement, as was the case with the replacement of Aramaic by Arabic. Iberian and Dacian Celtic were probably also close to Latin, perhaps all derived from a Hallstatt Celtic mother tongue.


* you can read about this in Archaic Syntax in Indo-European: The Spread of Transitivity in Latin and French and The Emergence and Development of SVO Patterning in Latin and French: Diachronic and Psycholinguistic Perspectives

** in this great book on diachronic sociolinguistics Empires of the Word: A Language History of the World

At last this evidence is coming out , that Gaulish tongues and Latin where very close :
just an exemple with Rex in Latin and Rix in Gaulish .
Furthermore if you listen to the sound of the Latin language , it sounds dark like a language from the north .
So my conviction is that actual french is in fact gaulish that has been latinized , as the latin had the advantage to be written .
From all the so called romance languages the French is the one that sounds the most like Latin , because it latinized Gaulish ,
and Latin was a close cousin to Gaulish .
Then it destroys the awkward theory that Gaulish languages disappeared , and the Gauls got rid of their langages to adopt the Latin .
No group of people abandon their language unless they are overwhelm by superior numbers .

And I would add another hypothesis ; it is well known that English is the closest germanic language to the Romance languages .
The mainstream explanation is it's because of the latin and the french conquests .
It could be also because the celtic tribes in England where speaking the same Gaulish languages ,
as an example the word "car' probably derive from the gaulish " Char" .
( In England at this time you could find tribes with the same names found in France : the Parisii , the Catalauns , etc )

[gandalf]

The prononciation of gaulish ( obvious links with french and latin ) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0haiE3U-Rk