Haplogroups and Civilizations

[motatalea]

Iam really very very sorry for inconvenience to you Mr Maciamo just there are some questions

1- Is that right that J2b haplogroup is found in very high percents in levant and iraq and not necessary associated with Greek colonization? i mean is it found originally in high percents there?

2-I know that R1b u152 has been associated with spread of halstatt cultures in scandinavia and R1a1 has been associated with Corded-ware culture in scandinavia,Does that mean that R1a1 and R1b u152 are the haplogroups that have been credited to scandinavian and germanic cultures? I mean does that mean that those two haplogroups which invaded I1a people are associated with expansion of germanic tribes to occupy roman empire and europe? and does that mean that I1a people were inferior to R1a1 and R1b U152 because they were conquered by them?

3-I have heared that R1b U106 ,I2b and I1a were the haplogroups of germanic people ,ok my question is do R1a1 and R1b U152 who were associated with corded and halstat cultures considered germanic too or not?

4-Is that right that R1a1 haplogroup was the credited and associated to both persian and indian civilizations because it was the more predominant than J2 and R2 and L and H?

5-Which the certainly haplogroup that has been credited and associated with Greek and roman civilizations ,Is it R1b or E-V13 or J2?

6-were the haplogroups C3 and all its subclades like C3* ,c3a ,c3b and c3c the haplogroups of Mongols or its subclade
C3* was the only one ?

7-Is that right that haplogroup O and all its subclades were the haplogroups of han chinese people and have been associated with expansion of han chinese civilization in to south east asia,polynesia and east asia?

8-please Could you find to me a link at which there is adistribution of J2 subclades in near eastern countries and greece and balkan?

9-you have told me that mt-DNA haplogroups can tell you if you are european,middle eastern,south asian ,east asian ,american or african ok my question is can they tell you which people that you are belong to (celts,germans,slavs,greeks,romans,semitics,hamiti cs) like Y-DNA haplogroups do?

10-last but not least ,Do you think that they will discover more subclades of mt-DNA haplogroups in the very near future or not? and is that right that mt-dna haplogroups I,W and X are descented from neanderthal?


I really would be very thankful to you Mr and iam really sorry for inconvenience and take care

[Maciamo]

1- Is that right that J2b haplogroup is found in very high percents in levant and iraq and not necessary associated with Greek colonization? i mean is it found originally in high percents there?

I don't have enough data about J subclades in the Middle East to judge. Some J2b in the Levant and Iraq could be associated with Greek colonization, but not necessary all of it. J2b is very old and found as far as India and Ethiopia. Studying the distribution of all J2b subclades would be more interesting, but data is still too scarce.

2-I know that R1b u152 has been associated with spread of halstatt cultures in scandinavia and R1a1 has been associated with Corded-ware culture in scandinavia,Does that mean that R1a1 and R1b u152 are the haplogroups that have been credited to scandinavian and germanic cultures? I mean does that mean that those two haplogroups which invaded I1a people are associated with expansion of germanic tribes to occupy roman empire and europe? and does that mean that I1a people were inferior to R1a1 and R1b U152 because they were conquered by them?

It's important to keep chronology in mind. I1 was the first in Scandinavia since the end of the Ice Age. R1a came to Scandinavia around 4,500 to 5,000 years ago. They had horses, chariots, battle-axes and bronze swords, which I1 people didn't. They were lucky enough to come from the only region of the world there were horses at the time. That is what made them "superior". Nevertheless I1 is more common than R1a in Scandinavia nowadays, so they must have be a sort of Indo-European ruling class. There were no "Germanic" people at the time - just native Nordic and Indo-Europeans. Even when R1b colonised Scandinavia in the Hallstatt period, Germanic and Celtic languages had not yet split from each others.

What is sure is that a new Germanic culture and language existed by Roman times. The Germanic tribes that invaded the Roman empire were already an I1-R1a-R1b admixture. Some tribes came from North-West Germany or the Netherlands (e.g. Franks, Lombards, Saxons) and had more R1b and I2b, a bit less I1, and much less R1a. I think that the modern haplogroup frequencies are not so different than 1,500 years ago in the Germanic homeland.

3-I have heared that R1b U106 ,I2b and I1a were the haplogroups of germanic people ,ok my question is do R1a1 and R1b U152 who were associated with corded and halstat cultures considered germanic too or not?

Germanic people were an admixture, but the admixture was quite different depending on their location. Frisia was quite different with Sweden. What made them similar is a relatively high percentage of both I1 and R1b. R1a and I2b varied a lot. I think that their genetic cohesion as a group is mainly due to the fact that the native female population didn't change much with the Indo-European invasions. If 65% of Y-DNA haplogroups are now Indo-European (R1b+R1a), it is likely than over 85% of female lineages are indigenous Nordic. This is what Y-DNA doesn't tell you. Overall, I think that at least 60% of all Scandinavian and north German/Dutch autosomal DNA must have been inherited from the native Nordic people.

4-Is that right that R1a1 haplogroup was the credited and associated to both persian and indian civilizations because it was the more predominant than J2 and R2 and L and H?

R1a1 was the main haplogroup of the Indo-Iranian invaders. Nowadays R1a1 is still the most common haplogroup in northern India overall, but not in Iran, where it only makes about 15 to 20% of the total, with big regional differences (less in the south, like in India).

L and H are native from South Asia. R2 is probably south Central Asian. I am not sure how J2 got to India, but probably via Persia. The Indo-Iranian must have "picked up" some J2 in Persian before conquering the Indian subcontinent.

5-Which the certainly haplogroup that has been credited and associated with Greek and roman civilizations ,Is it R1b or E-V13 or J2?

I have answered that here.

6-were the haplogroups C3 and all its subclades like C3* ,c3a ,c3b and c3c the haplogroups of Mongols or its subclade

C is one of the oldest haplogroups in the world, and the oldest outside Africa. It correspond to the first migration to Asia (along the Indian Ocean coast) 70,000 years ago. It is found everywhere from Australia to Siberia and North America. I imagine that C people must have mixed with the descendants of the Homo Erectus (Peking man) in East Asia to become the first Mongoloid people. The higher percentage of C in Mongolia also correlates with stronger Mongoloid traits.

A recent study found that the arrival of C3 in North America 10,000 years ago corresponds to the end of the Clovis culture and the replacement of the old Native Americans by new Mongoloid people.

So C3 is also very old and not just Mongol, but rather Mongoloid. C3 subclades are found in all East Asia, Siberia and North America. You can see the ethnic association for each subclade here.

7-Is that right that haplogroup O and all its subclades were the haplogroups of han chinese people and have been associated with expansion of han chinese civilization in to south east asia,polynesia and east asia?

O is also much older than the Han Chinese civilisation. But it's true that O is the dominant haplogroup in East Asian countries linked to the Chinese civilization (Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Thailand...). Subclades can also differentiate each region, even inside China. You can see the subclades details here.

8-please Could you find to me a link at which there is a distribution of J2 subclades in near eastern countries and greece and balkan?

Here

9-you have told me that mt-DNA haplogroups can tell you if you are european,middle eastern,south asian ,east asian ,american or african ok my question is can they tell you which people that you are belong to (celts,germans,slavs,greeks,romans,semitics,hamiti cs) like Y-DNA haplogroups do?

Not really at present. Deep subclades need to be studied more. But there are already several hundreds of deep subclades and there will be thousands in a few years, so that is not an easy task.

10-last but not least ,Do you think that they will discover more subclades of mt-DNA haplogroups in the very near future or not?

Subclades yes, but not haplogroups (unless they re-arrange the tree).

and is that right that mt-dna haplogroups I,W and X are descented from neanderthal?
[/B]

Too little is known about Neanderthals at the moment.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

J2 is found largely in Arab populations and Greece. In Europe, saturation levels seem to be highest in Greece and some Balkan nations.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Is there a way to put together a more detailed mt-DNA listing by country? What is offered currently is somewhat barren.

[Maciamo]

Is there a way to put together a more detailed mt-DNA listing by country? What is offered currently is somewhat barren.

The problem is that mtDNA data is more scarce than Y-DNA. One reason is that mtDNA isn't very useful for ethnic comparisons in Europe. This could change once deep subclade tests will become more common. It is infinitely more useful to know that someone is U5a1a, H5a or T2b2 than just knowing that they belong to haplogroups U, H and T.

Mitochondrial haplogroups are much older than Y-DNA haplogroups. For example, mtDNA haplogroup U5 is older than Y-DNA haplogroup F (father of G, H and IJK !). At that level there would only be two Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East : E and F.

So I don't think it is worth spending too much time on mtDNA statistics for the time being. Once data for deep clades will be available, there will be too many clades for a normal size table, but that's another problem.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The problem is that mtDNA data is more scarce than Y-DNA. One reason is that mtDNA isn't very useful for ethnic comparisons in Europe. This could change once deep subclade tests will become more common. It is infinitely more useful to know that someone is U5a1a, H5a or T2b2 than just knowing that they belong to haplogroups U, H and T.
Mitochondrial haplogroups are much older than Y-DNA haplogroups. For example, mtDNA haplogroup U5 is older than Y-DNA haplogroup F (father of G, H and IJK !). At that level there would only be two Y-DNA haplogroups in Europe, North Africa and the Middle East : E and F.
So I don't think it is worth spending too much time on mtDNA statistics for the time being. Once data for deep clades will be available, there will be too many clades for a normal size table, but that's another problem.

I'm very impressed with your depth of genetic knowledge...

[Cambrius (The Red)]

How often are haplogroup tables updated.? New findings in genetics seem to come out every week these days.

[Maciamo]

How often are haplogroup tables updated.? New findings in genetics seem to come out every week these days.

For Y-DNA about once a month, but usually only for one or a few countries at a time, depending on the new data available.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Probably should provide more intra-country regional data. North, Central, South, if possible.

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Iam really very very sorry for inconvenience to you Mr Maciamo just there are some questions
1- Is that right that J2b haplogroup is found in very high percents in levant and iraq and not necessary associated with Greek colonization? i mean is it found originally in high percents there?
2-I know that R1b u152 has been associated with spread of halstatt cultures in scandinavia and R1a1 has been associated with Corded-ware culture in scandinavia,Does that mean that R1a1 and R1b u152 are the haplogroups that have been credited to scandinavian and germanic cultures? I mean does that mean that those two haplogroups which invaded I1a people are associated with expansion of germanic tribes to occupy roman empire and europe? and does that mean that I1a people were inferior to R1a1 and R1b U152 because they were conquered by them?
3-I have heared that R1b U106 ,I2b and I1a were the haplogroups of germanic people ,ok my question is do R1a1 and R1b U152 who were associated with corded and halstat cultures considered germanic too or not?
4-Is that right that R1a1 haplogroup was the credited and associated to both persian and indian civilizations because it was the more predominant than J2 and R2 and L and H?
5-Which the certainly haplogroup that has been credited and associated with Greek and roman civilizations ,Is it R1b or E-V13 or J2?
6-were the haplogroups C3 and all its subclades like C3* ,c3a ,c3b and c3c the haplogroups of Mongols or its subclade
C3* was the only one ?
7-Is that right that haplogroup O and all its subclades were the haplogroups of han chinese people and have been associated with expansion of han chinese civilization in to south east asia,polynesia and east asia?
8-please Could you find to me a link at which there is adistribution of J2 subclades in near eastern countries and greece and balkan?
9-you have told me that mt-DNA haplogroups can tell you if you are european,middle eastern,south asian ,east asian ,american or african ok my question is can they tell you which people that you are belong to (celts,germans,slavs,greeks,romans,semitics,hamiti cs) like Y-DNA haplogroups do?
10-last but not least ,Do you think that they will discover more subclades of mt-DNA haplogroups in the very near future or not? and is that right that mt-dna haplogroups I,W and X are descented from neanderthal?
I really would be very thankful to you Mr and iam really sorry for inconvenience and take care

Some of the questions are a little odd. We can hardly say that one haplogroup is "inferior" to another...

[Euro-American]

C is one of the oldest haplogroups in the world, and the oldest outside Africa. It correspond to the first migration to Asia (along the Indian Ocean coast) 70,000 years ago. It is found everywhere from Australia to Siberia and North America. I imagine that C people must have mixed with the descendants of the Homo Erectus (Peking man) in East Asia to become the first Mongoloid people. The higher percentage of C in Mongolia also correlates with stronger Mongoloid traits.

That's very interesting. I've kinda thought that various populations might have admixes of DNA from other himinid species. (If they can mix aren't they the same species?)

Then there was that question about mt DNA haplotype X being decended of Neanderthal.

Is there a lot of evidence to back those theories? Any links or books of interest?

Anyway I had found some answers on this site before by searching google and liked what I read so I decided to join. Nice to find an Avatar of someone I'm distantly related to.

[BakodiP]

I don't have enough data about J subclades in the Middle East to judge. Some J2b in the Levant and Iraq could be associated with Greek colonization, but not necessary all of it. J2b is very old and found as far as India and Ethiopia. Studying the distribution of all J2b subclades would be more interesting, but data is still too scarce.

After nearly 4 years of the original posting do you know something new about J2b and subclades in the Middle Eastern region? I'm really interested in the J2b* M205- M241- subclade. I was tested positive for Z574 which is a downstream of M12 and an upstream of M241 (unfortunately no M205+ tested this SNP). I know only two other people who are M241-, Z574+ a Tuscan from 1000Genomes, and a Russian from Personal Genome Project.

[nordicwarrior]

...Does that mean that R1a1 and R1b u152 are the haplogroups that have been credited to scandinavian and germanic cultures? I mean does that mean that those two haplogroups which invaded I1a people are associated with expansion of germanic tribes to occupy roman empire and europe? and does that mean that I1a people were inferior to R1a1 and R1b U152 because they were conquered by them?

The honest answer to your question about the invasion is yes... R1b and R1a were initially superior in technology and organization. This led to a large advantage in population growth.

However, once hg I1 became familiar with these new fighting systems... they reversed the situation. Please look at the expansion of I1 in the British Isles during the Anglo-Saxon, Viking, and Norman invasions. Also note the current make up of Norway, Sweden, Denmark, and Western Finland.

This might be a controversial statement, but look at it like this Motatalea-- if given the choice you would probably chose to live life as an hg. I1 member. But you'd want your daughter to marry an R1b member.

I can already sense the arrows being fired in my general direction. :)