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Thread: Oldest European cities

  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heber View Post
    Wurzburg established over 3,000 years ago.
    Würzburg is a city in the region of Franconia which lies in the northern tip of Bavaria, Germany. Located on the Main River, it is the capital of the Regierungsbezirk Lower Franconia. The regional dialect is Franconian. Its population is 131,320 as of December 31, 2006.
    By 1000 BC a Celtic fortification stood on the site of the present Fortress Marienberg. It was Christianized in 686 by Irish missionaries Kilian, Colman and Totnan.
    Source: Wiki Wurzburg
    You are right about Würzburg. I have added it to the list.
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  2. #27
    Heber Heber's Avatar
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    As previously mentioned by Roni.
    Varna (Bulgaria) 5,000 BC
    Varna, is the largest city and seaside resort on the Bulgarian Black Sea Coast and in Northern Bulgaria, third-largest in Bulgaria after Sofia and Plovdiv, and 77th-largest in the European Union, with a population of 355,450 (405,329 in the metro area).
    Prehistoric settlements best known for the eneolithic necropolis (mid-5th millennium BC radiocarbon dating), a key archaeological site in world prehistory, eponymous of old European Varna culture and internationally considered the world's oldest large find of gold artifacts, existed within modern city limits. The graves have been dated to 4600-4200 BCE (radiocarbon dating, 2004) and belong to the Eneolithic Varna culture, which is the local variant of the KGKVI.
    In the broader region of the Varna lakes (then freshwater) and the adjacent karst springs and caves, over 30 prehistoric settlements have been unearthed with the earliest artifacts dating back to the Middle Paleolithic or 100,000 years ago.
    Varna is among Europe's oldest cities. Thracians populated the area by 1200 BC.
    Source: Wiki Varna
    Last edited by Heber; 11-12-09 at 06:19.

  3. #28
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    As previously mentioned by Roni.
    Plovdiv (Bulgaria) 4,000 BC
    Plovdiv is the second-largest city in Bulgaria after Sofia, with a population of 380,638. Known in ancient times as Philippoupolis, it is the administrative center of Plovdiv Province in southern Bulgaria, as well as the largest and most important city in Northern Thrace and the wider international historical region of Thrace.
    With a history dating back over 6000 years Plovdiv is one of Europe's oldest settlements. Archaeologists have discovered fine pottery and other objects of everyday life from as early as the Neolithic Age, showing that in the end of the 7th millennium B.C. there already was an established settlement there. According to Ammianus Marcellinus, Plovdiv's written post-Bronze Age history lists it as a Thracian fortified settlement named Eumolpias.
    Source: Wiki Plovdiv
    Last edited by Heber; 11-12-09 at 06:19.

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    Os dejo mas ciudades antiguas:
    Bastida (cerca de Totana, Murcia): 2.200 BCE
    Ubeda (provincia de Jaen, Andalucia): 4.000 BCE
    Jaen (Andalucia) : 4.000 BCE
    pero tranquilos que hay mas...

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    Otra ciudad en Espana, capital de la Edetania y llamada Edeta, estoy hablando de Liria.

    Liria (Valencia): 2.000 BCE

    Y ahora la ciudad o una de las ciudades mas antiguas de Espana, esta en Alicante y en epoca ibera se le llamaba Ilici, en ella se encontro la escultura famosa de la Dama de Elche, pues nada ya he dicho su nombre. En la ciudad se ha encontrado una "ciudad" neolitica, formada por una calle y cabanas a su alrededor.

    Elche (Alicante): 5.000 BCE

    Os dejo otra ciudad de Espana y tambien muy antigua

    Valdepino (Cuenca): 4.000 BCE
    Last edited by Maciamo; 04-01-10 at 22:40. Reason: posts merged

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    During the 4th millennium BCE, the late Tripolye culture, in the centre-east of modern Ukraine, developed the largest towns in the world. Although not properly cities (they lacked fortifications, administrative buildings, or temples), the largest of these oversized villages were twice the size of Mesopotamian city-states. The largest Tripolye towns were the sites of :

    - Talianki (450 ha ; 4.5 km2 ; 1110 acres)
    - Maidanets (250 ha ; 2.5 km2 ; 600 acres)
    - Dobrovody (250 ha ; 2.5 km2 ; 600 acres)
    - Kasenovka (125 ha ; 1.25 km2 ; 300 acres)

    The estimated population was up to 15,000 inhabitants for Talianki. Not bad for 5500 years ago. At the time, most of the world's population lived in tribal camps or villages rarely exceeding 10 to 100 people.

    In terms of comparison, central Oxford is about 2 km2. Eneolithic houses were usually single-storied, which forced the population to be very spread out by modern standard. But Talianki's land area was about 4 times bigger than a city like Oxford or Monaco. It was more comparable to the size of Bruges, Bonn, Avignon, Pisa or Salamanca (I checked on Google Maps, and they are all about 2 km x 2 km).

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    Bueno aqui teneis una ciudad megalitica, en la propia ciudad hay tres santuarios megaliticos, esta en Andalucia, en Malaga... es la ciudad de Antequera, su antiguedad esta en torno a 4.000 antes de cristo, en un principio se dataron hacia el 2.500 aC. pero nuevas dataciones los datan en 4.000 aos. En los alrededores de la ciudad se han encontrado cuevas con pinturas rupestres, su antiguedad en realidad es mucho mayor, aunque si hay que hablar de ciudad... podemos hablar del 4.000 aC. es decir una ciudad de hace 6.000 aos de antigedad.

  8. #33
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    I have added old Iberian settlements as well. Some were fairly large towns, such as Zambujal.

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    One of the oldest polish cities - Cracow. Filled with beuitful, old streets, cafes, restaurants, monuments and charming hostels like aston :)

  10. #35
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    Çatalhöyük

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%87atalh%C3%B6y%C3%BCk

    Çatal Höyük (Turkish pronunciation: [tʃaˈtal.højyk]; also Çatalhöyük and Çatal Hüyük, or any of the three without diacritics; çatal is Turkish for "fork", höyük for "mound") was a very large Neolithic and Chalcolithic settlement in southern Anatolia, which existed from approximately 7500 BCE to 5700 BCE. It is the largest and best preserved Neolithic site found to date.
    Çatalhöyük is located overlooking wheat fields in the Konya Plain, southeast of the present-day city of Konya (ancient Iconium) in Turkey, approximately 140 km (87 mi) from the twin-coned volcano of Hasan Dağ. The eastern settlement forms a mound which would have risen about 20 m (66 ft) above the plain at the time of the latest Neolithic occupation. There is also a smaller settlement mound to the west and a Byzantine settlement a few hundred meters to the east. The prehistoric mound settlements were abandoned before the Bronze Age. A channel of the Çarşamba river once flowed between the two mounds, and the settlement was built on alluvial clay which may have been favourable for early agriculture.
    The population of the eastern mound has been estimated at up to 10,000 people, but population totals likely varied over the community’s history. An average population of between 5,000 to 8,000 is a reasonable estimate

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Here is a list of towns and cities in Europe that were founded at least 3000 years ago (prior to 1000 BCE). The list is of course not exhaustive. Feel free to complete it if you have additional information. Abandonned/destroyed cities are ok too.

    I have added the probable main haplogroup(s) of the people who founded the city.

    1. 7,000 BCE : Choirokoitia (Cyprus) => J2 and E1b1b
    2. 6,500 BCE : Sesklo (Thessaly, Greece) => E1b1b and J2 (and G2a ?)
    3. 6,000 BCE : Starčevo (Serbia) => E1b1b and J2
    4. 5,500 BCE : Pločnik (Serbia) => E1b1b and J2
    5. 5,000 BCE : Varna (Bulgaria) => E1b1b and J2
    6. 5,000 BCE : Hallstatt (Austria) => E1b1b and J2 (and I2b ?)
    7. 5,000 BCE : Bratislava (Slovakia) => E1b1b and J2 (and I2b ?)
    8. 4,800 BCE : Dimini (Thessaly, Greece) => E1b1b and J2 (and G2a ?)
    9. c. 4,500 BCE : Lerna (Peloponnese, Greece) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    10. 4,500 BCE : Glauberg (Hesse, Germany) => E1b1b and J2 (and I2b ?)
    11. 4,000 BCE : Plovdiv (Bulgaria) => E1b1b and J2
    12. 4,000 BCE : Phaistos (Crete, Greece) => J2
    13. 3,900 BCE : Michelsberg (Baden, Germany) => E1b1b and J2 (and I2b ?)
    14. 3,800 BCE : Dobrovody (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b and J2
    15. 3,700 BCE : Talianki (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b and J2
    16. 3,700 BCE : Maydanets (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b and J2
    17. 3,250 BCE : Kasenovka (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b and J2
    18. 3,200 BCE : Skara Brae (Scotland) => I2b
    19. 3,000 BCE : Troy (Turkey) => R1b (and J2 ?)
    20. 3,000 BCE : Myrtos Pyrgos (Crete, Greece) => J2
    21. 3,000 BCE : Akrotiri (Cyprus) => J2 and E1b1b
    22. 3,000 BCE : Athens (Greece) => E1b1b, G2a, I2, J2
    23. 2,700 BCE : Knossos (Crete, Greece) => J2
    24. 2,500 BCE : Kastri, (Kythera, Greece) => J2
    25. 2,300 BCE : Gournia (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    26. 2,300 BCE : Manika (Euboea, Greece) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    27. 2,000 BCE : Mantua (Italy) => E1b1b G2a, I2a
    28. 1,900 BCE : Mycenae (Greece) => R1a
    29. 1,900 BCE : Mallia (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    30. 1,900 BCE : Kato Zakros (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    31. 1,600 BCE : Hagia Triada (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    32. 1,600 BCE : Chania (Crete, Greece) => J2 (and R1b ?)
    33. 1,400 BCE : Larnaca (Cyprus) => J2 and E1b1b
    34. 1,300 BCE : Heuneburg (Württemberg, Germany) => R1b
    35. 1,200 BCE : Lisbon (Portugal) => I2 (?)
    36. 1,100 BCE : Cadiz (Spain) => J2, E1b1b, G2a
    37. 1,100 BCE : Chios (North Aegean, Greece) => J2, E1b1b (and R1b ?)
    38. 1,000 BCE : Würzburg (Bavaria, Germany) => R1b


    The oldest towns outside the Aegean follow the Neolithic expansion of haplogroup E-V13 and J2 from Thessaly along the Danube basin (see map below). Unsurprisingly E-V13 is most commonly found from northern Greece to Serbia, with Kosovo peaking at 45% of the population. It reaches 19% in Macedonian Greeks, 23% in Albania, 24% in Serbia, and 40% in the Sesklo/Dimini region of Thessaly. ....
    I find a bit of this stuff quite interesting but I'm afraid you lose me when you start talking about Haplogroups. I think most non-academics don't have a clue what a haplogroup is. Could you tell us about this stuff in language we can understand?

  12. #37
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andalublue View Post
    I find a bit of this stuff quite interesting but I'm afraid you lose me when you start talking about Haplogroups. I think most non-academics don't have a clue what a haplogroup is. Could you tell us about this stuff in language we can understand?
    Wikipedia has a good explanation of what is a haplogroup. As for the history and ethnic connection for each paternal haplogroup you can read about that here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Wikipedia has a good explanation of what is a haplogroup. As for the history and ethnic connection for each paternal haplogroup you can read about that here.
    Wow! I just checked out that wikipage and I did not understand a word of it. I think I'd better back out right now, tail between my legs, and admit that perhaps genetics is a little beyond me. Apologies for wasting your time.

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    Plovdiv, Bulgaria

    One way of measuring a city’s age is to note the number of names it has had. In the case of Plovdiv, the list begins with Eumolpias, changing to Philippoupolis when it was conquered by Philip II of Macedon (Alexander the Great’s father) in 342 BC. Centuries passed and Philippoupolis became Trimontium, then Philippoupolis again, then Paldin, Filibe and finally Plovdiv.

    Plovdiv is Bulgaria’s second-largest city and one of Europe’s oldest – signs of urban activity there go back nearly 9,000 years.

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

    and for little better photos.
    http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hititler

    if it can be counted as european

  16. #41
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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lu...anguage_de.svg

    this one is very interesting.
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...n_Swadesh_list

    most of the words does not look familiar though.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lu...anguage_de.svg

    this one is very interesting.
    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Append...n_Swadesh_list

    most of the words does not look familiar though.

    Well, you can tell from the list that it was an Indo-European language. The mu for I and the words beginning with K for who, where, what and when match up with the same words in Sanskrit and Lithuanian (Lithuanian is one of the most conservative of the Indo-European languages and hasn't changed much since it was born.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aristander View Post
    Well, you can tell from the list that it was an Indo-European language. The mu for I and the words beginning with K for who, where, what and when match up with the same words in Sanskrit and Lithuanian (Lithuanian is one of the most conservative of the Indo-European languages and hasn't changed much since it was born.)
    i tried to find some words;
    eng.-----lith.---------------luvi
    who-----kas, kuris----------kuis
    where---kuwar(i)-----------kame, kur
    what----kam, koks,kiek,-----kuī
    when----kai, kuomet -------kuwati
    not-----------------------nāwa
    three----trejetas------------tarris
    big------įstrižas ------------urazzas
    grass---marihuana----------zuhri

    these are really alike.
    but, luvvi language had lived 3000-1000 BC, and in that period there was no immigration from central anatolia to baltics. and i guess lithuanian was emerged about 300 (?) AC.

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    Thanks for the info.

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    I know that Durres is an ancient city, and also Tønsberg in Norway, which dates back to the viking times, making it probably the oldest Scandinavian city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albanien View Post
    I know that Durres is an ancient city, and also Tønsberg in Norway, which dates back to the viking times, making it probably the oldest Scandinavian city.
    Viking times were only 1000 years ago. That's medieval not ancient. This thread only lists cities that are at least 3,000 years old (in other words that are older than Rome and predate the Classical Greek Antiquity).

    According to Wikipedia, Durrës was founded in 627 BCE. That's ancient, but relatively recent compared to other cities in the Balkans.

  22. #47
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    Does Dolní Věstonice count as a city - some cities were very small - even Troy - but a permanent settlement, especially one including stone construction and pottery like this one maybe should be included (and dating from c.25,000 bce).
    Catal Huyuk is in Turkey rather than Europe proper too - but very ancient. Anyone know if it has been determined yet which haplogroup, or any broader gentic classification, to which the builders of Catal Huyuk would have belonged?

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    It's tricky to make the difference between a city and a settlement. The city implies a community living off or getting incomes from commercial trade, that narrows dramatically the scope of the research. North-East Ireland, around Sligo, is dotted with ancient pre-historic settlements and burial grounds that attest the presence of sizeable human societies. That cannot be considered as "cities" in any case, but as in Wéris in Belgium, Carnac in Brittany, Stonehenge in England and all across Europe, monumental remains attest of a form of collaborative work that point to forms of societies able to network and build communal projects. The city as we define it would be hard to justify much before the early bronze age in Europe anyway.

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    the oldest city in europe and six oldest city in the world is Plovdiv |Bulgaria|

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    You have the city of Durres! ---> Though surviving remains are minimal as one of the oldest cities in Albania, the city was founded as Epidamnos in the ancient region of Illyria in 627 BCAlso Berat ---> The earliest recorded inhabitants of the city (6th century BC)

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