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Thread: Oldest European cities

  1. #51
    Advisor bicicleur's Avatar
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    interesting
    but what a long list
    i need some time to digest

  2. #52
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    I fear that much of the information gived here is a bit wrong....


    the OP talks of most ancient founded cities , but most on the list are not cities , but just ancient settlements of neolitic age.


    It was said to contribute with settlements and cities that are more ancient than Rome ...


    but it is very controversial that affirmation, because then most of the actual named cities placed on the original list should not be even considered, because some if not most of them are as said archeological sites of prehistorical finds, the names are not even the original ones , because those had been lost in ime and so are unknown, finally most of those sites are not continuously inhabited to the present date.


    the same condition considered ( predating Rome) is ambiguos , because either you talk of prehistorical settlements , and you cannot talk of cities ,or you talk of urbanization , in wich case most of the mentioned cities would not be considered valid for the enlisting.


    for example Rome has a canonic founding date of 753bc , but the site is inhabited since neolitic times up to 14000 years Bc so that what makes of Rome? One of the most ancient cities in world? The same can be said for most of the other ancient proper cities of the mediterranean and greek world, their line of hiatory goes in the past way beyond the canonical dates... The same city of Matera in Italy is probably the most ancient inhabited without interruption city in the world since neholitic times, and I mean people still living in the neholitic caves...


    so there is something that really needs a clarification in that thread ... And I only signed to this forum to correct it.

  3. #53
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    Sorry it was just a dued clarification ...

  4. #54
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    It seems on the G2a map there are distinctive hot spots near Los Millares and Zambujal. More distinctive then for J2 or E1b1b. Seems there are other hot spots near Bilbao? La Rochelle and Calais France?

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    cool thread most cities are from the Illyrian balkan Albania.gif

    here another one:
    Pula
    Evidence of the presence of Homo erectus at 1 million years ago have been found in the cave of Šandalja near Pula.[2] Pottery from the Neolithic period (6000–2000 BC), indicating human settlement, have been found around Pula.
    The inhabitants of Istria in the Bronze Age are known as Proto Illyrians
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pula

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    1. Starčevo (Serbia) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    2. 5,500 BCE : Pločnik (Serbia) => E1b1b, G2a and J2

    That's wrong. Starcevo wasn't found by "Near Eastern" people. The Starcevo culture has it origins from mesolithic people of the "Lepenski Vir" culture. The first settlements dated back around 7000bc. Thats long before the neolithic expansion.
    The neolithic "expansion" influenced the people(transformation), but it didn't replace them.
    And iam sure that outside of greece neolithic "the most" people were of Haplogroup I type in the balkans, because the cultures show a mesolithic pre neolithic charakter with influence from near eastern neolithic cultures.

  7. #57
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    maciano, where do you get all the information??

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    Vinkovci in Croatia is actually the oldest European city - indeed the oldest urban settlement in the continuity of which more than 8,300 years, says prof. dr. sc. Aleksandar Durman, Zagreb archaeologist who works at the Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb.
    Last edited by hrvat22; 03-09-14 at 14:51.

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    sounds its from Wikiedpa I remember

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    Quote Originally Posted by hrvat22 View Post
    Vinkovci in Croatia is actually the oldest European city - indeed the oldest urban settlement in the continuity of which more than 8,300 years, says prof. dr. sc. Aleksandar Durman, Zagreb archaeologist who works at the Faculty of Philosophy in Zagreb.
    Vinkovci is nowhere written to be oldest town in Europe, but it is written in wikipedia "The area around Vinkovci (German: Winkowitz, Hungarian: Vinkovce, Latin: Colonia Aurelia Cibalae) has been continually inhabited since the Neolithic period, well before the Roman period."

    I also agree that the most "cities" in the list are actually settlements. But I haven't seen nowhere Prowadia (actually ancient town was called Solnitsata (Bulgarian: Солницата, "The Saltworks") by the historians, the real name in that time is unknown) which is shown in wikipedia as a real oldest town in Europe, established some where in 4700 BC. The settlement was walled to protect the salt, a crucial commodity in antiquity.[3] Although its population has been estimated at only 350,[3] archaeologist Vassil Nikolov argues that it meets established criteria as a prehistoric city.[4] Salt production drove Solnitsata's economy, and the town is believed to have supplied salt throughout the Balkans. A large collection of gold objects nearby has led archaeologists to speculate that this trade resulted in considerable wealth for the town's residents.[1]

    Regards

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanculito View Post
    Vinkovci is nowhere written to be oldest town in Europe, but it is written in wikipedia "The area around Vinkovci (German: Winkowitz, Hungarian: Vinkovce, Latin: Colonia Aurelia Cibalae) has been continually inhabited since the Neolithic period, well before the Roman period."

    I also agree that the most "cities" in the list are actually settlements. But I haven't seen nowhere Prowadia (actually ancient town was called Solnitsata (Bulgarian: Солницата, "The Saltworks") by the historians, the real name in that time is unknown) which is shown in wikipedia as a real oldest town in Europe, established some where in 4700 BC. The settlement was walled to protect the salt, a crucial commodity in antiquity.[3] Although its population has been estimated at only 350,[3] archaeologist Vassil Nikolov argues that it meets established criteria as a prehistoric city.[4] Salt production drove Solnitsata's economy, and the town is believed to have supplied salt throughout the Balkans. A large collection of gold objects nearby has led archaeologists to speculate that this trade resulted in considerable wealth for the town's residents.[1]

    Regards
    http://www.hkv.hr/izdvojeno/vai-pril...pski-grad.html


    At the center of this oldest European city (Vinkovci), the location of which archaeologists call "tell Market", Durman in 1977, on the site of hotel, found "there archaeological finds of starčevo culture, and they are dated in 6300. B.C.

  12. #62
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    1. 3,800 BCE : Dobrovody (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    2. 3,700 BCE : Talianki (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    3. 3,700 BCE : Maydanets (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    4. 3,250 BCE : Kasenovka (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2

    Isn't I2a1 more probable for the Cucuteni-Trypillan culture than I2a2 ???

    ========================

    I have one more candidate to the list:

    1700 BCE : Arkaim => R1a1a, C (not C3):

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkaim

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_of_Towns

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sintashta_culture

    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/ancientdna.shtml

    ========================

    BTW only sites older than 1000 BCE count?
    Last edited by Tomenable; 20-03-15 at 21:15.

  13. #63
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    6,000 BCE : Starčevo (Serbia) => E1b1b, G2a and J2
    Was it part of the Starčevo culture?

    If so then it could have similar HGs as Starčevo culture's sites in Hungary and Croatia:

    http://www.ancestraljourneys.org/eur...ithicdna.shtml

    G2, G2a, G2a2b, I2a1, I, H2, F

  14. #64
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    Hi everyone

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    Does anyone knows about settlement in Sardinia older than Cagliari (800 bc)?
    There are hundreds of "nuraghi" which date 1000bc-4000bc, but there seems to be no apparent pattern to what happened in between.

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    Arkaim (mentioned above) was 2 ha large and had an estimated population of 1500-2500 people.

    =========================

    I have some more to the list, from Poland:

    Bruszczewo (Unetice culture) - established ca. 2300/2200 BC (and inhabited for ca. 500+ years)

    Inhabitants of Bruszczewo buried their dead in Łęki Małe kurgans (RISE431 from Allentoft 2015)

    Trzcinica ("Carpathian Troy") - 2 ha large (the same size as Arkaim), inhabited ca. 2100-1350 BC.

    Maszkowice - fortified town with a stone wall (built ca. 1750-1690 BC), but only 200+ inhabitants

    Biskupin, 2 ha, ca. 100 large houses, ca. 1200 inhabitants: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biskupin

  17. #67
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    Great information.

  18. #68
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    Hi everybody

    What do you think about Schela Cladovei. Unfortunately I am new here and I'm not allowed yet to post links but you can find something at donmaps and then search for schela

  19. #69
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    1. 3,800 BCE : Dobrovody (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    2. 3,700 BCE : Talianki (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    3. 3,700 BCE : Maydanets (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    4. 3,250 BCE : Kasenovka (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    5. 3,800 BCE : Dobrovody (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    6. 3,700 BCE : Talianki (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    7. 3,700 BCE : Maydanets (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2
    8. 3,250 BCE : Kasenovka (Ukraine) => I2a2, E1b1b , G2a and J2


    1. This is quite interesting.

  20. #70
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    The significant presence of I2a2 in Ukraine is indeed interesting.

  21. #71
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    Has there been any revision of that list from the OP?

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    I feel for some reasons like Athens should be high up

  23. #73
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    Hi all, I am new here. How are you all? I just want to ask why two oldest Croatians cities (older than Zadar) like Vinkovci and Vučedol (now Vukovar) and didn't added on list "Oldest European towns and cities by founding year"? Best regards, Croatianomous.

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