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Thread: Are haplogroups I and J2 close genetically ?

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    Post Are haplogroups I and J2 close genetically ?

    I read a few articles that state I and J2 are very close genetically. Also that there is an I-J corridor dividing Europe north to south from Scandinavia (nexis of I) to Italy (nexis of J2). There is a new test for the S-22 marker to confirm this. I keep seeing on-line that I is a purely European halpotype and that J is not. Isn't it true that I and J derive from the same ancestor- decendants of I leaving the same area and mutating in Europe to become I while J left from the same place a bit later becoming J2 along the way prior to entry into Europe. It sounds like I and J2 are so closely related that they should be "brothers"- I carrying a northern signature and J2 carrying the southern signature. J2 is not a semitic (Arabid- I saw this on a terrible white supremist site) haplotype if I is not. Also, J split long before the existence of religion. Am I on the wrong track?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    I read a few articles that state I and J2 are very close genetically. Also that there is an I-J corridor dividing Europe north to south from Scandinavia (nexis of I) to Italy (nexis of J2). There is a new test for the S-22 marker to confirm this. I keep seeing on-line that I is a purely European halpotype and that J is not. Isn't it true that I and J derive from the same ancestor- decendants of I leaving the same area and mutating in Europe to become I while J left from the same place a bit later becoming J2 along the way prior to entry into Europe. It sounds like I and J2 are so closely related that they should be "brothers"- I carrying a northern signature and J2 carrying the southern signature. J2 is not a semitic (Arabid- I saw this on a terrible white supremist site) haplotype if I is not. Also, J split long before the existence of religion. Am I on the wrong track?
    Haplogroups I and J descend from IJ, but the split happened almost 40,000 years ago in the Middle East. Haplogroup I moved to Europe (with a few possible leftovers in the Middle East) while J remained there.

    If you consider that modern humans didn't start painting caves until 32,000 years ago, that the first pottery appeared 27,000 years ago (but wasn't commonly used in Europe until about 7,000 years ago) and that modern Europeans probably didn't have white skin and fair eyes until 15,000 to 10,000 years ago, you will realise that 40,000 years is a very long time.

    The split between I and J happened around the same time as the split between R and NO. So I and J are not more closely related than Europeans (mostly R) are from East Asians (mostly O).

    You can see a timeline with all this here
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    Response to IJ Split

    Recently more information is being discovered. I just read the possibility of J2 being of Paleolithic origin:
    Haplogroups J appears to correlate the most with the spread of agriculture from the Middle East. However, being one of the oldest haplogroups, some branches could very well have been in Europe long before that. J1 and J2a are generally more common in Europe and are in all likelihood of Paleolithic origin, while J2b is more frequent in the Middle East and in South-East Europe (Neolithic farmers, probably correlated to Y-DNA haplogroup E-M78).
    The information changes so rapidly that it's hard to know what is the truth. Now there is a test called S22- shows how connected both I and J are to the exclusion of others:

    “Ethnoancestry is pleased to announce the launch of a new SNP, S22, which unites haplogroups I and J to the exclusion of G, H and K, within the F supergroup. This SNP may be interesting for anyone in the rare F* group, or anyone within hg I or J who is interested to confirm their status at this marker.”
    The new internal branch of IJ-S22 is an exciting new development. We had previously known that the ancestors of haplogroup I arrived in Europe from West Asia in Upper Paleolithic times. Subsequently, haplogroup J bearers also entered Europe from the same region, during the Holocene.



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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    Recently more information is being discovered. I just read the possibility of J2 being of Paleolithic origin:
    Such assertions can be confusing given that the end of the Paleolithic is a few millennia earlier in the Middle East than in North-Western Europe. Some regions skip the Mesolithic entirely to pass from Paleolithic to Neolithic. By northern or western European standards, all the major haplogroups (R1a, R1b, J1, J2, E1b1b, etc.) are of Paleolithic origin (i.e. appeared over 13,000 years ago). You can have an overview of the age of haplogroups on this chart.

    Haplogroups J appears to correlate the most with the spread of agriculture from the Middle East. However, being one of the oldest haplogroups, some branches could very well have been in Europe long before that.
    Based on the subclades found in Europe, all of them originated in the Near/Middle East, except maybe J2b, which is more common in Europe and peaks in the Balkans.

    J1 and J2a are generally more common in Europe and are in all likelihood of Paleolithic origin, while J2b is more frequent in the Middle East and in South-East Europe (Neolithic farmers, probably correlated to Y-DNA haplogroup E-M78).
    I suppose you meant that J1 and J2a are more common in the Middle East.

    The information changes so rapidly that it's hard to know what is the truth.
    What changes rapidly is our interpretations of migrations based on finer subclades analysis or discovery of new subclades. But the fact that J2b is more common in south-east and central Europe than elsewhere isn't likely to change over time (unless samples tested so far were seriously biased and misleading, but not likely).

    Now there is a test called S22- shows how connected both I and J are to the exclusion of others:

    “Ethnoancestry is pleased to announce the launch of a new SNP, S22, which unites haplogroups I and J to the exclusion of G, H and K, within the F supergroup. This SNP may be interesting for anyone in the rare F* group, or anyone within hg I or J who is interested to confirm their status at this marker.”
    The new internal branch of IJ-S22 is an exciting new development. We had previously known that the ancestors of haplogroup I arrived in Europe from West Asia in Upper Paleolithic times. Subsequently, haplogroup J bearers also entered Europe from the same region, during the Holocene.
    That's completely useless to test for anybody who is already positive for SNP's downstream (which is 100% of IJ as there has never been any living person testing IJ*). It's only interesting to understand the age of IJ, but it shouldn't be offered for commercial tests at all.

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    Is it true that Cro-Magnons are probably the IJ Haplotype?
    I is the oldest haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there (apart from deep subclades of other haplogroups). It is thought to have arrived from the Middle East as haplogroup IJ around 35,000 years ago, and developed into haplogroup I approximately 25,000 years ago. This means that Cro-Magnons most probably belonged (exclusively ?) to IJ or I. Also, I and J may be more closely related as I read that there are some J2 individuals with very low values at 385a (~13) and 385b (~15) that make it difficult to distinguish from the I haplotype. I'm under the impression that you feel as though I and J2 are not closely related at all. All the literature I read seems to indicate they are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    Is it true that Cro-Magnons are probably the IJ Haplotype?
    I don't see what else they could have been 35,000 years ago.

    There is no way they could have been NOP, as the descendants of NOP are all found in Asia. R1a and R1b migrated to Europe in large number but are still found heavily Western and Central Asia.

    Cro-Magnons couldn't have been G as almost all the European G belong to the fairly recent G2a3 clade. Same for E, most European are E-V13, which clearly follows the spread of farming. That really only leaves IJ and I* for early Cro-Magnons.

    I'm under the impression that you feel as though I and J2 are not closely related at all. All the literature I read seems to indicate they are.
    It's all a matter of what you define as "close". I* and J* are close, but they almost don't exist anymore. A J2a4 or J1e individual is certainly not closely related to a I2a2 or I1.

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    I don't understand some Y-DNA results I've seen where a J2a4 individual has many matches with Individuals in the I haplogroup (ie I1)

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    I don't understand some Y-DNA results I've seen where a J2a4 individual has many matches with Individuals in the I haplogroup (ie I1)
    I suppose you are referring to STR matches. It's easy to get very misleading matches with low-definition STR (anything under 30 markers). The Y-chromosome can be divided in thousands of STR sections. Commercial tests only give a very partial picture. That's why some people end up having matches outside their haplogroup. For example, some I1 can be confused for G, some G for F, and some R1b for Q. I have seen case of I2b that can be confused for C3 at a 12-marker level, which is amazing as their most recent common ancestor is 60,000 years ago !

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    When I got my first 20 marker test done my prediction was R1a and I ended up being an I2a2. I can agree with Maciamo on the STR confusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ua'Ronain View Post
    When I got my first 20 marker test done my prediction was R1a and I ended up being an I2a2. I can agree with Maciamo on the STR confusion.
    That's interesting. I wonder if the confusion between R1a and I2a2 is frequent with few STR markers. I have been wondering how a country like Belarus could have so much I2a2, but it might just be a lot of prediction errors by those who made the statistics for Belarus (and other Eastern European countries).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I suppose you are referring to STR matches. It's easy to get very misleading matches with low-definition STR (anything under 30 markers). The Y-chromosome can be divided in thousands of STR sections. Commercial tests only give a very partial picture. That's why some people end up having matches outside their haplogroup. For example, some I1 can be confused for G, some G for F, and some R1b for Q. I have seen case of I2b that can be confused for C3 at a 12-marker level, which is amazing as their most recent common ancestor is 60,000 years ago !
    I've seen matches among J2a4b and various I1 and other I Y-DNA carriers with 67 markers in the 1 step mutation or more category.

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    A perfect 67-STR match between a J2a4b and a J2a4a is less close than two J2a4b are from each others (even if the two J2a4b have 10 non-matching STR markers). SNP's always trump STR's.

    In a few years STR will be a think of the past anyway. Testing STR is just a trick to avoid testing too many SNP's. 23andMe already tests enough SNP to determine most known haplogroup subclades with a higher precision than a 67 STR markers test. They are rumours that testing the whole genome could cost under US$1000 no later than this year (I seriously doubt that though). In any case I wouldn't be surprised if the full Y-chromosome could be tested for under US$500 within 2 years.

    Once people start testing the full Y-chromosome, there will be no point for STR anymore. Comparisons will be much easier; just knowing your deep subclade and the number of private mutations (SNPs) shared by individuals in the same subclade.

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    Thank you for the informative discussion on my Y-DNA, J2a4b. I will certainly test my full Y-DNA when available at a reasonable price. I think I will do the same for my Mitochondrial DNA. I am currently H but since I haven't had the full genome tested I'm not sure of the sub-clade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Haplogroups I and J descend from IJ, but the split happened almost 40,000 years ago in the Middle East. Haplogroup I moved to Europe (with a few possible leftovers in the Middle East) while J remained there.

    If you consider that modern humans didn't start painting caves until 32,000 years ago, that the first pottery appeared 27,000 years ago (but wasn't commonly used in Europe until about 7,000 years ago) and that modern Europeans probably didn't have white skin and fair eyes until 15,000 to 10,000 years ago, you will realise that 40,000 years is a very long time.

    The split between I and J happened around the same time as the split between R and NO. So I and J are not more closely related than Europeans (mostly R) are from East Asians (mostly O).

    You can see a timeline with all this here
    I just read that now it is believed that Y-DNA I Haplogroup may possibly have developed in the Middle East and not the Balkans as previously thought. Do you know about this? Any comments?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    I just read that now it is believed that Y-DNA I Haplogroup may possibly have developed in the Middle East and not the Balkans as previously thought. Do you know about this? Any comments?
    I don't see how we could know about this with the current advancement of DNA tests. I could be either south-east Europe or the Middle East. Anyway haplogroup I appeared right in the middle of the Ice Age, when people were nomadic hunter-gathers, so they almost certainly spend their time between the two regions. That makes it impossible to "know" where the first person with the mutation that distinguished I* from IJ was born. I don't think it is important.

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    I was asking because if "I" developed in the Middle East then that would mean that all Haplotypes in Europe developed outside Europe. It's just an observation I made reading how important it seems to others.

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    So Basically JackMack you can say that (Scandinavians, Balkans and Arabs) are in one camp and the rest of ( Europe, R1A Slavs, the Chinese and the rest of the Orientals and native Americans) are in another camp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    I was asking because if "I" developed in the Middle East then that would mean that all Haplotypes in Europe developed outside Europe. It's just an observation I made reading how important it seems to others.
    I is not the same as I1, I2a1, I2a2, I2b1 and I2b1. Nowadays you would be har pressed to find a I* in Europe. Although I* might have first appeared in the Middle East, there is little doubt that the above subclades all developed in Europe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Haplogroups I and J descend from IJ, but the split happened almost 40,000 years ago in the Middle East. Haplogroup I moved to Europe (with a few possible leftovers in the Middle East) while J remained there.
    How we know the split occured in the Middle east?

    If that was the case why we don't have upstream I-M170 all over the Middle East?


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    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    I carrying a northern signature and J2 carrying the southern signature. J2 is not a semitic (Arabid- I saw this on a terrible white supremist site) haplotype if I is not. Also, J split long before the existence of religion. Am I on the wrong track?
    J & I are closer to each other than I & R1

    J1 is as related to I since the common mutation is J-M304 (very distantly related that is) & it has nothing to do white nationalism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I* and J* are close, but they almost don't exist anymore. A J2a4 or J1e individual is certainly not closely related to a I2a2 or I1.
    J* is still alive & doing well

    J* itself branches into to two groups, a younger branch very close to J1-M267 this J* its distinguished by a 19.2 - 18.2 DYS458 value....a trait common in J1-M267...absent in J2-M172 this J* (really the new J1) is common in Western Oman-Yemen border & more than likely is related to Socotran J* (younger J*)

    J2-M172 DYS458 value is whole number without the 0.2, this is also true to a European J* sample more than likely closer to IJ or J2

    Last edited by Genocentrist; 13-09-09 at 23:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    A perfect 67-STR match between a J2a4b and a J2a4a is less close than two J2a4b are from each others (even if the two J2a4b have 10 non-matching STR markers). SNP's always trump STR's.
    Exactly...I could care less about STR matches.

    The whole 67 marker myth is a marketing strategy by commercial companies that want you to spend more $ on nothing, the best you can do is invest your $ on finding your own micro subclade, you can't go wrong with SNPs

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    i was advised to order the marker test, now i am confused. Does it mean that you can order SNP test without ordering STR?

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    Quote Originally Posted by philips View Post
    i was advised to order the marker test, now i am confused. Does it mean that you can order SNP test without ordering STR?
    Yes. These are two completely separate tests. For instance 23andMe only tests SNP's. Genealogical DNA test companies like Family Tree DNA do both kinds of tests. STR's are more useful to compare individuals within genealogical times. SNP's determine subclades, which is more interesting for historians and anthropologists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by philips View Post
    i was advised to order the marker test, now i am confused. Does it mean that you can order SNP test without ordering STR?
    Yes Phillips, but most commercial sites will forces you to buy the useless STRs first to milk you out of your $

    Its okay to start with a well priced marker test (59$-79$) to see where you stand first, I was referring to the unnecessary 67marker & 91 marker commercial tests

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