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Thread: I2a2 M423+

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrick View Post
    how yes no
    Illyrian and many old Greek tribes were originally E1b1b.

    How about Dacians?

    I think, Dacians were originally E1b1b also.
    I am not sure about that...
    Romania has less E-V13

    it may be truth as genetic relief of Romania was probably heavily changed during Roman conquests and movements of people

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    I am not sure about that...
    Romania has less E-V13

    it may be truth as genetic relief of Romania was probably heavily changed during Roman conquests and movements of people
    It is fundamentally important question if it may be truth.

    There are opinions that the Dacians (and Thracians also) are originally E1b1b.

    If it is true: Illyrians, Greek tribes, Thracians and Dacians are probably the same root, early (Neolithic) farmers.

    Kalevy Week (2008) about Balkan:

    "Clans E3b, J and G and represent the Early Farmers."

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    it is hard to say anything about it as many tribes passed through Romania and settled there... however all these tribes were moving in from E-V13 poor areas... so in past E-V13 must have been stronger, but it does not necessarily mean it was dominant...

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    The whole mountainous tract from the recess of the Adriatic bay to the Rhizonic gulf,17 and to the territory of the Ardi├Ži, intervening between the sea and Pannonia, forms the coast of Illyria.
    ...
    Strabo
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...ghlight=#note5

    I did previously misinterpret this....
    Even though he states that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians, Illyrian coast in time of Strabo writing was not in Albania and Montenegro, but only from Kotor bay in west Montenegro to Istra in Croatia...

    he used phrase "recess of Adriatic bay" also to explain position of Veneti...

    and in fact, Adriatic coast north of Kotor bay is very weak in E, even on islands... so, while we can relate Dardanians wirh haplogroup E, it is very questionable whether that can be done with Illyrians... I think not...

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no View Post
    it is hard to say anything about it as many tribes passed through Romania and settled there... however all these tribes were moving in from E-V13 poor areas... so in past E-V13 must have been stronger, but it does not necessarily mean it was dominant...
    how yes no
    It is better to shift this discussion to the topic about E1b1b, and I answered to this your post on the topic:

    "New map of E1b1b in Europe and the Middle East".

  6. #81
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    I2a2 in England?

    Recently I sent in a sample of my DNA so I could get a better understanding of my paternal history. While I knew 12 generations of my fathers family back to Lincolnshire, England or around 400 years I wanted to find out more.
    Long story short, turns out I belong to Subclade I2a2. Which is interesting as my report said the largest group sharing this Subclade are not in England but Sardinia. So here is my question, anyone got any ideas how this minority Subclade in England got there from it's majority standing in Sardinia?

    Here I was thinking due to my last name that I was from a long line of Vikings out of norther Europe, but now find out about 14000 years ago it started for me in the Mediterranean growing olives. Not a bad thing, but a mystery to me. So humor me as I am new to this so please share with me clues, ideas or places to search.
    Last edited by Browns44; 04-03-11 at 04:39.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Browns44 View Post
    Recently I sent in a sample of my DNA so I could get a better understanding of my paternal history. While I knew 12 generations of my fathers family back to Lincolnshire, England or around 400 years I wanted to find out more.
    Long story short, turns out I belong to Subclade I2a2. Which is interesting as my report said the largest group sharing this Subclade are not in England but Sardinia. So here is my question, anyone got any ideas how this minority Subclade in England got there from it's majority standing in Sardinia?

    Here I was thinking due to my last name that I was from a long line of Vikings out of norther Europe, but now find out about 14000 years ago it started for me in the Mediterranean growing olives. Not a bad thing, but a mystery to me. So humor me as I am new to this so please share with me clues, ideas or places to search.

    Thanks,
    Tim
    Trueblood
    100,000 years ago you were still an ape. Growing olives? Grow a brain, moron.

    You're still an ape, apparently.

  8. #83
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    Is there any reason to be so incredibly rude?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    100,000 years ago you were still an ape. Growing olives? Grow a brain, moron.

    You're still an ape, apparently.

    What is wrong with you? That was horribly rude.

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    This words of Sprinkles asks for reaction of Administrator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Browns44 View Post
    Recently I sent in a sample of my DNA so I could get a better understanding of my paternal history. While I knew 12 generations of my fathers family back to Lincolnshire, England or around 400 years I wanted to find out more.
    Long story short, turns out I belong to Subclade I2a2. Which is interesting as my report said the largest group sharing this Subclade are not in England but Sardinia. So here is my question, anyone got any ideas how this minority Subclade in England got there from it's majority standing in Sardinia?

    Here I was thinking due to my last name that I was from a long line of Vikings out of norther Europe, but now find out about 14000 years ago it started for me in the Mediterranean growing olives. Not a bad thing, but a mystery to me. So humor me as I am new to this so please share with me clues, ideas or places to search.
    I think your testing company is probably useing out of date nomenclature. If they mention a Sardinian origin they most likely mean that you are M26 I2a1. If so, yours is a good candidate for the very earliest clade to hit the British shores from its Iberian foundation place.

    On the other hand, if you are L161 I2a2b, your ancestors might have been pre-Celts, Celts or even Anglo-Saxons. This is a clade nearly as old as M26 I2a1, but with a northern German founder. It is split into 8 subclades and sometimes called 'I2a2b-Isles'.

    From the Sardinia reference it sounds very much as if you belong in M26 I2a1.

    Oh, by the way, please ignore Sprinkles' paralytically stupid and callow comments. He is quite obviously a social inadequate with a chip on both shoulders. Most of us on here are mature adults, not silly little boys.

  12. #87
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    Baron,

    Thanks for your insight and your thoughtful response!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Browns44 View Post
    Baron,

    Thanks for your insight and your thoughtful response!
    Anytime, bud. We are all on a learning curve, just at different stages, and we should all try to help each other rather than score points like the jack-ass previously.

    Actually, I've just read your private message to me and it seems that you are actually not in M26 I2a1 but rather in I2a2. You mentioned Sardinia before which led me to think that you were in I2a1. However, you supply details that show you are positive for both P37.2 and M423 SNPs, which put you squarely in I2a2 [old I1b1].

    Because you are of English stock, I assume that you will be also positive for SNP L161, which would put you in the north-west European L161 I2a2b clade [or I2a2b-Isles, as Ken Nordtvedt calls it], rather than the east European I2a2a-Dinaric. Please can you send me your STR markers by private email and I'll be able to tell you which of the 8 subclades of I2a2b-Isles that you belong in.

    If you are in L161 I2a2b-Isles, this means that you belong to a very ancient clade, and a very small one. Nordtvedt has suggested that the earliest clade of I2a2b was founded in northern Germany in the Neolithic, and hit the British shores some 6,000 years ago. There is some English, Scots and Irish [the bulk is in Ireland] distribution of I2a2b, with a small presence across the north European plain, with Germany predominating. Arguably, a range of peoples brought this small clade to Britain from northern Germany- pre-Celts, Celts and later Anglo-Saxons.

    What I think has happened in your case is that Genebase have tested you correctly, i.e, you are positive for P.37.2 and M423 which put you in I2a2, but they might have used old, out of date descriptions of haplogroup distribution. M26 I2a1 is found in Sardinia, but certainly not your I2a2 clade.

    Send me your STR markers, and I'll assign you to a subclade of probably L161 I2a2b-Isles...

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    Wrong post, wrong thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sprinkles View Post
    Wrong post, wrong thread.

    Why are you stalking the new guy?

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    Did you get my last email with the info you requested?

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    I recently tested I2a2b with 23andMe which also gave me the Sardinia information. I have been told though that apparently I am 12a2a Disles. Can anyone help me understand what this means please?

    As far as I know my paternal line comes from the British Isles. My surname is Dowell which comes from the Gaelic DubhGhaill which was the name the locals gave to the Danish vikings. I could be wrong on that matter though. Just what I read on the internet. Any help is greatly appreciated.
    Last edited by Gungnir; 12-03-11 at 05:23.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    I recently tested I2a2b with 23andMe which also gave me the Sardinia information. I have been told though that apparently I am 12a2b Disles. Can anyone help me understand what this means please?

    As far as I know my paternal line comes from the British Isles. My surname is Dowell which comes from the Gaelic DubhGhaill which was the name the locals gave to the Danish vikings. I could be wrong on that matter though. Just what I read on the internet. Any help is greatly appreciated.
    Denmark Viking origin for some of I2a2-DIsles and I2a2-Isles makes sense to me.

    If we look at spread of I2* which is most widespread ancestor branch of I2a2-DIsles and I2a2-Isles
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

    one of 3 lines of its spread was from Italy to Denmark...(others are line from around Black sea to Baltic, and UK line....)

    btw. locations of I2a people you can find in this project:
    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

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    Quote Originally Posted by Browns44 View Post
    Did you get my last email with the info you requested?
    Sincerely sorry to take so long to reply- academic work got in the way. I did indeed receive the info you sent me. I can easily assign you now to the following clade:

    L161 I2a2b-Isles 'B1'. Your STR markers fit neatly into Ken Nordtvedt's 'Isles B1'. This is the oldest subclade of I2a2b-Isles [there are 8] and it was probably founded in north Germany in the Neolithic. The clade first hit Britain around 6,000 years ago, but may have been carried by different 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic farmers, Celts and later Anglo-Saxons. There is some 'B1' in England, Scotland, Ireland and across the north European plain with Germany predominating.

    L161 I2a2b-Isles is also positive for P37.2 and M423 SNPs. The branch-lines between 'Isles' and the east-European form- I2a2a-Dinaric- separated ways some 7,000 years ago.

    If you need any more help, just ask.

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    Hello Y_____, I see you are still pushing that "wave theory" despite the complete absence of a source population.

    For the rest of you, here is the story of I2a2b:

    Our Pre-Isles people were living in Doggerland until the tsunamis and sea level rise submerged the land at 6,200 BC. They migrated toward an area now underwater off East Anglia. There our Isles B founder was born about 6,000 BC. These were a mesolithic hunter/gatherer people living a precarious existence. But they did survive and the sea level did continue to rise driving them to the west. The Pre-Isles group may not have been so lucky, as the number of their descendants seems very small. More about that presently.

    About 4,000 BC the founder of C1 was born, whether to a B1 parent or to a Pre-Isles parent is not clear. The C1 became a relatively prolific branch. This was about the time that neolithic practices took hold, so that may account for their success. It may also be because they had slightly different circumstances.

    The first neolithic farmers to arrive in southern Ireland seem to have been using seeds adapted to the climate of Spain. These did not do well in Ireland and the resulting crop failures may have caused a regression to mesolithic status for those folks. When the crop fails, you eat the cow, and you are back to hunter/gatherer. The archaeological facts correspond astonishingly well to the legend of Parthelon who arrived in boats from the south bringing oxen and plough, but whose efforts failed in a fairly short time.

    The farmers of northern Europe were using crops that were much more hardy in colder climates. When these seeds reached northern Ireland, perhaps carried by the hands of the C1, the neolithic revolution really took off. The map in the link below shows the success of the neolithic people mostly in the north.

    Perhaps 3,500 BC, some C1 arrived in the north of Ireland where their successful ways continued, based perhaps on having the right seed stock. They were a minority population but they may have built up locally strong tribal groups and positions - like Rathcroghan. As time went on, their culture may have evolved and merged into the Cruthin. [The legend of Nemed does not seem to fit with what we hypothesize about the C1 and the Fir Bolg were very much too recent to fit either, so the legends seem to have skipped the Isles-C.]

    In Ireland, C2, D1, and D2 were founded and spread.

    Back over in southeast England, about 2,800 BC the founder of A1 was born (again whether to a B1 parent or to a Pre-Isles parent is not clear, but I would bet on Pre-Isles.) followed shortly by A2. The A1 seem to have moved west across southern England and on to Cork, where their main population seems to remain. The time and location correspond very well with the production of copper in Cork and trading in copper across England to the continent.

    The A2 spread northwards and are found in England and across into northern Ireland.

    All of these were in Ireland and Britain a very long time, thousands of years, before any of the more famous invaders - Celtic, Iberian, AngloSaxon, Fir Bolg, Milesian, etc, etc.. - arrived.

    But they were not the first.

    The modern population of Isles-B seems to be disproportionately small and Pre-Isles is nearly extinct.

    There is a speculation that would account for that: we must remember that they were living in East Anglia. When the famous invaders - the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc, etc. - began arriving, East Anglia is where the invasions began and the invaders just kept coming. The locals were subjected to centuries of continuous warfare that resulted in a massive ethnic cleansing called the "Dark Horror". As much as 85% of the male population were killed and the women taken as wives for the invaders. A few surviving male children were shipped or traded back to the continent as captives where their descendants are still found in very small numbers as erratic occurrences of Isles B1.

    (Cheerful corrections cheerfully welcomed)


    Here is a nice summary of the history:

    http://www.doveslightcoven.0catch.co...oneolithic.htm


    Here is a map that shows the whole journey:

    http://danel.us/resources/Grandfathers+Path9.pdf


    And another that shows the events since Doggerland:

    http://danel.us/resources/Doggerland+Isles+B.gif


    And if you want to do your own subclade work:

    http://danel.us/resources/Subclade+P...+format+v5.xls

    I would ask all of you I2a+ folks to do two things:

    1) post your results on ysearch.org and
    2) join ancestry.com i2a2b group (it's free) and also post your results there.
    Last edited by jdanel; 16-03-11 at 03:20.

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    xxxxxxxxxxxxx
    Last edited by jdanel; 16-03-11 at 01:57. Reason: double post

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    Quote Originally Posted by jdanel View Post
    Hello Y_____, I see you are still pushing that "wave theory" despite the complete absence of a source population.

    For the rest of you, here is the story of I2a2b:

    Our Pre-Isles people were living in Doggerland until the tsunamis and sea level rise submerged the land at 6,200 BC. They migrated toward an area now underwater off East Anglia. There our Isles B founder was born about 6,000 BC. These were a mesolithic hunter/gatherer people living a precarious existence. But they did survive and the sea level did continue to rise driving them to the west. The Pre-Isles group may not have been so lucky, as the number of their descendants seems very small. More about that presently.

    About 4,000 BC the founder of C1 was born, whether to a B1 parent or to a Pre-Isles parent is not clear. The C1 became a relatively prolific branch. This was about the time that neolithic practices took hold, so that may account for their success. It may also be because they had slightly different circumstances.

    The first neolithic farmers to arrive in southern Ireland seem to have been using seeds adapted to the climate of Spain. These did not do well in Ireland and the resulting crop failures may have caused a regression to mesolithic status for those folks. When the crop fails, you eat the cow, and you are back to hunter/gatherer. The archaeological facts correspond astonishingly well to the legend of Parthelon who arrived in boats from the south bringing oxen and plough, but whose efforts failed in a fairly short time.

    The farmers of northern Europe were using crops that were much more hardy in colder climates. When these seeds reached northern Ireland, perhaps carried by the hands of the C1, the neolithic revolution really took off. The map in the link below shows the success of the neolithic people mostly in the north.

    Perhaps 3,500 BC, some C1 arrived in the north of Ireland where their successful ways continued, based perhaps on having the right seed stock. They were a minority population but they may have built up locally strong tribal groups and positions - like Rathcroghan. As time went on, their culture may have evolved and merged into the Cruthin. [The legend of Nemed does not seem to fit with what we hypothesize about the C1 and the Fir Bolg were very much too recent to fit either, so the legends seem to have skipped the Isles-C.]

    In Ireland, C2, D1, and D2 were founded and spread.

    Back over in southeast England, about 2,800 BC the founder of A1 was born (again whether to a B1 parent or to a Pre-Isles parent is not clear, but I would bet on Pre-Isles.) followed shortly by A2. The A1 seem to have moved west across southern England and on to Cork, where their main population seems to remain. The time and location correspond very well with the production of copper in Cork and trading in copper across England to the continent.

    The A2 spread northwards and are found in England and across into northern Ireland.

    All of these were in Ireland and Britain a very long time, thousands of years, before any of the more famous invaders - Celtic, Iberian, AngloSaxon, Fir Bolg, Milesian, etc, etc.. - arrived.

    But they were not the first.

    The modern population of Isles-B seems to be disproportionately small and Pre-Isles is nearly extinct.

    There is a speculation that would account for that: we must remember that they were living in East Anglia. When the famous invaders - the Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc, etc. - began arriving, East Anglia is where the invasions began and the invaders just kept coming. The locals were subjected to centuries of continuous warfare that resulted in a massive ethnic cleansing called the "Dark Horror". As much as 85% of the male population were killed and the women taken as wives for the invaders. A few surviving male children were shipped or traded back to the continent as captives where their descendants are still found in very small numbers as erratic occurrences of Isles B1.

    (Cheerful corrections cheerfully welcomed)


    Here is a nice summary of the history:

    http://www.doveslightcoven.0catch.co...oneolithic.htm


    Here is a map that shows the whole journey:

    http://danel.us/resources/Grandfathers+Path9.pdf


    And another that shows the events since Doggerland:

    http://danel.us/resources/Doggerland+Isles+B.gif


    And if you want to do your own subclade work:

    http://danel.us/resources/Subclade+P...+format+v5.xls

    I would ask all of you I2a+ folks to do two things:

    1) post your results on ysearch.org and
    2) join ancestry.com i2a2b group (it's free) and also post your results there.

    Well, JD, this is all fine and dandy but it is conjecture all the same. You say that there is no 'source population'? What do you mean? I know from email correspondence that Bryan Sykes and Peter Forster certainly believe some I2a2 was carried by Anglo-Saxons. So does Anatole Klyosov, and also Jean Manco in 'The Peopling of Europe'. Certainly, the bulk of I2a2b-Isles is far, far older but where on earth do you get the evidence to be so specific about the 'journey' of I2a2b and the individual pathways of the subclades? Even Ken Nordtvedt doesn't know this much. Aside from the hotspot of C and D around Rathcroghan, I see no pattern other than a tendency for the Irish distribution to be towards the west in refuge areas. I2a2b-Isles is spread thinly across the Irish population.

    The bulk of I2a2b-Isles is in Ireland, but there is sufficient in England, lowland Scotland and across the north European plain [for a small clade] to say that the Irish do not have a monopoly on I2a2b. Why are Sykes, Forster etc so wrong about some of the English and lowland Scots I2a2 coming from later Anglo-Saxon invasions?

    By the way, your reference to 'the Dark Horror' eludes me. I have heard of the 'Dark Ages' but where do you get your evidence from to suggest that this was a common name for the Anglo-Saxon invasions? You are wrong for a start about the invasions beginning in East Anglia. All credible accounts state that the Anglo-Saxon invasions began in KENT. Your theory that Isles B people on the continent descend from natives taken there by Anglo-Saxon invaders is blown apart by the plain facts that A] Isles B would have formed part of the Anglo-Saxon make-up, being founded and having a presence on the north European plain- it would have been carried to Britain by Anglo-Saxons in some cases, and B] There are examples of ALL the subclades of I2a2b-Isles on the north European plain including C2 and D1, D2 which you associate with Ireland [I checked with Ken Nordtvedt].

    Incidentally, just to remind you, when Forster ran my I2a2b-Isles D2 signature [43 markers] through his huge, Cambridge database, many times the size of Ysearch, the hotspot came back as northern Germany. This does not suggest back-migration but that there is more I2a2b 'out there' on the continent than is recorded in the limited, biased public databases. After all, according to Nordtvedt, L161 I2a2b-Isles was founded in northern Germany.

    Your advice to fellow 'Islesmen' to join the Ancestry.com group is fair enough, but membership is not 'free' for good. I contributed a great deal to the group, but in January was informed that membership had 'expired'. It seems I have to pay money to 'upgrade' to continue. Or is that just in my case for daring to challenge a few orthodoxies?

    The 'waves' theory is supported by Jean Manco in 'Peopling of Europe, by the way. You re not suggesting that I2a2b-Isles all came at once are you?

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    What role does Disles play in any of this?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    Well, JD, this is all fine and dandy but it is conjecture all the same. You say that there is no 'source population'? What do you mean? I know from email correspondence that Bryan Sykes and Peter Forster certainly believe some I2a2 was carried by Anglo-Saxons. So does Anatole Klyosov, and also Jean Manco in 'The Peopling of Europe'. Certainly, the bulk of I2a2b-Isles is far, far older but where on earth do you get the evidence to be so specific about the 'journey' of I2a2b and the individual pathways of the subclades? Even Ken Nordtvedt doesn't know this much. Aside from the hotspot of C and D around Rathcroghan, I see no pattern other than a tendency for the Irish distribution to be towards the west in refuge areas. I2a2b-Isles is spread thinly across the Irish population.

    The bulk of I2a2b-Isles is in Ireland, but there is sufficient in England, lowland Scotland and across the north European plain [for a small clade] to say that the Irish do not have a monopoly on I2a2b. Why are Sykes, Forster etc so wrong about some of the English and lowland Scots I2a2 coming from later Anglo-Saxon invasions?

    By the way, your reference to 'the Dark Horror' eludes me. I have heard of the 'Dark Ages' but where do you get your evidence from to suggest that this was a Common name for the Anglo-Saxon invasions. You are wrong for a start about the invasions beginning in East Anglia. All credible accounts state that the Anglo-Saxon invasions began in KENT. Your theory that Isles B people on the continent descend from natives taken there by Anglo-Saxon invaders is blown apart by the plain facts that A] Isles B would have formed part of the Anglo-Saxon make-up, being founded and having a presence on the north European plain- it would have been carried to Britain by Anglo-Saxons in some cases, and B] There are examples of ALL the subclades of I2a2b-Isles on the north European plain including C2 and D1, D2 which you associate with Ireland [I checked with Ken Nordtvedt].

    Incidentally, just to remind you, when Forster ran my I2a2b-Isles D2 signature [43 markers] through his huge, Cambridge database, many times the size of Ysearch, the hotspot came back as northern Germany. This does not suggest back-migration but that there is more I2a2b 'out there' on the continent than is recorded in the limited, biased public databases. After all, according to Nordtvedt, L161 I2a2b-Isles was founded in northern Germany.

    Your advice to fellow 'Islesmen' to join the Ancestry.com group is fair enough, but membership is not 'free' for good. I contributed a great deal to the group, but in January was informed that membership had 'expired'. It seems I have to pay money to 'upgrade' to continue. Or is that just in my case for daring to challenge a few orthodoxies?

    The 'waves' theory is supported by Jean Manco in 'Peopling of Europe, by the way. You re not suggesting that I2a2b-Isles all came at once are you?

    Conjecture it certainly is, but so are all of the ideas you reference. Furthermore, many of your references apply to I2a and NOT AT ALL to I2a2b.

    You continue to comment on I2a2, but this group does not exist. According to ISOGG, I2a2* has never been observed. NEVER. There are NO I2a2* anywhere. They have been extinct probably for many thousands of years.

    Sykes and Forster "Believe"..., but where is the supporting data? There is NONE. Are they not using the 10 marker definitions that can barely classify down to I2, and are essentially useless at getting to I2a2b and Isles subclades? They may be right if you are talking about I2a, but that is NOT the subject of this discussion. And the same for Klyosov and Manco. Is it not Sykes who denies the existence of I2a2b? That being the case, anything he says can not be presumed to apply to I2a2b. Therefore his ideas are irrelevant to this discussion.

    Evidence about the specifics of the journey? It is conjecture, in the strict technical meaning of that term. Where is the evidence that it is wrong? Again, none.

    Nordtvedt has chosen, as a scientist properly should, to not participate in this level of conjecture, but he has not said it is wrong. The only comments he has made are that he differs in the details and that he is not going to go too far into this.

    In addition to Rathcroghan, the Driscolls of Cork would certainly seem to qualify as a hotspot for A1. All of Ireland would seem to be a cool spot for B, as they are underrepresented there.

    "Why are Sykes, Forster etc so wrong about some of the English and lowland Scots I2a2 coming from later Anglo-Saxon invasions? " Because they have zero, ZERO, data to support that for I2a2b. Show me the data. You are severely over-reading their info.

    Do they actually put that final 2 on I2a2, or is that you doing that? The difference between I2a and I2a2b is like the difference between H and Hg in chemistry. You simply can not use them interchangeably, but that is what your comments seem to do.

    "plain facts that A] Isles B would have formed part of the Anglo-Saxon make-up" I think that is pure baloney. Lets see the data that gets you past I2a.

    "There are examples of ALL the subclades of I2a2b-Isles on the north European plain including C2 and D1, D2 which you associate with Ireland [I checked with Ken Nordtvedt]." I think KN has ONE Isles A on the continent, about 42 B, and a small handfull of C and D. These TRIVIAL numbers prove nothing. I can provide a hotspot of Isles A3 (that is not a typo and you saw it here first!) originating in Jamestown Virginia. I can go shake hands with over 50 of them. That is more than the total of continental Isles. That certainly doesn't prove A3 originated in Virginia.

    "Your theory that Isles B people on the continent..." Not correct. My position is that SOME of the VERY FEW Isles B on the continent....

    "All credible accounts state that the Anglo-Saxon invasions began in KENT." Why are you trying to restrict my comment to the Anglo-Saxons? There were several groups of invaders who all began at different points. Are you denying that the Anglo-Saxons went to East Anglia? Anglia, named after the Angles!!

    A D2 hotspot in northern Germany? Show me some data to support that outlandish idea. And reread my comment on the A3 hotspot in Virginia.

    "The 'waves' theory is supported by Jean Manco " Again, isn't she talking I2a and not I2a2b? Therefore irrelevant to this discussion..

    "according to Nordtvedt, L161 I2a2b-Isles was founded..." That seriously overstates his position. "likely founded" would, I think, be more correct. He had been very careful to state that SNP can never be dated directly. And he has noted the similarity to I2a2a, which is located mainly in the Balkans and Black Sea area. And he notes the very great age of the line which essentially mandates that it was founded in one of the refugia because most of Europe was under ice at the time. Of the refugia, only the Eukraine makes any sense as a candidate location. Where and when on this line L161 was founded is unknowable. Likely founded on the North German plain is about the most that can be said, and even that is speculative.

    "You re not suggesting that I2a2b-Isles all came at once are you?" Well, sort of, if you call a few thousand years from 7,000 to 3,000 BC "all at once".
    Last edited by jdanel; 17-03-11 at 05:00.

  25. #100
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    23-01-11
    Posts
    69

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2b Isles A3 L161

    Country: USA - South Carolina



    Quote Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
    What role does Disles play in any of this?
    G_________, you raise a real mystery. There are two mysteries. One is where did Disles come from. The other is why is Wales devoid - or nearly so - of Isles groups. There are several speculations, but nobody has a good idea.

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