I2a2 M423+

[Tully]

1st time post -
this is an excellent site I must say!!!
Are there many I2a people out there. I have been identified as having the "C" isles haplotype.
There are a few tests going on at the moment on I2a Disles and I think I2a* which should bring up some new SNPs to further split the Isles / Dinaric types.
Some comment I've seen on the Web suggests I2a may have travelled through NW Europe to UK / Ireland from it's SE Europe origins. Any other lines of thought out there re this??
It will be interesting to see if the FTDNA I2a "walk thru the"Y" test I2*,Isles-D2,Disles,and M26-A, will turn up.
Is it generally agreed that the M423+ was a split off I2a? I've seen figures of 10,000 - 14,000 yrs ago?? If this is right there should be more identifying features??

[Maciamo]

I2a2 certainly travelled from SE Europe to NW Europe, but it is impossible to know if it was with the Neolithic farmers or during Roman times (or later). It couldn't have been earlier considering the age of I2a2. My estimate for the age of I2a2 is roughly 8000 years old.

[Tully]

I2a2 certainly travelled from SE Europe to NW Europe, but it is impossible to know if it was with the Neolithic farmers or during Roman times (or later). It couldn't have been earlier considering the age of I2a2. My estimate for the age of I2a2 is roughly 8000 years old.

Maciamo, so you think it more than likely that the Concentration of I2a2 Ireland was probably a later introduction from NW Europe?? Do you know off hand where the greatest concentration thus far of I2a2, is in NW Europe other the British Isles generally? Very little info this far away from Europe re the Haplogroups of our forebears. The internet is the best way but then you have to sieve a lot of dross at times. I suppose this is how the Romans who settled in Roman Britain felt?? Haha History repeats

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, so you think it more than likely that the Concentration of I2a2 Ireland was probably a later introduction from NW Europe??

Ireland is in NW Europe. What do you mean ?

[Tully]

I meant North Western Continental Europe. The concentrations of I2a2 and it's sub-clades seem to have a higher percentage in parts of Ireland than say England. Looking for a track & trace really. Do the Romans, or parts of Italy considered to be "Roman" show a high percentage of I2a2 haplotype?? Say 20%?? or lower??. I suppose many Adriatic peoples moved and assimilated into the Roman Empire & its colonising activities. All very interesting stuff. Regards

[Maciamo]

The highest regional percentage of I2a2 in Italy is 2 or 3% on the Adriatic coast*. You won't find more anywhere in Western Europe. Most of the I2a in Western Europe is actually I2a* or I2a1. I2a2 is normally found in the Balkans. I2a1 peaks in Sardinia and radiates around the west Mediterranean coasts (Spain, France, Italy, North Africa). I2a is quite common all over Spain, but especially around the Pyrenees.

* Some cities on the southern Adriatic coast (like Foggia or Brindisi) sometimes exceed 10% of I2a, but these are very localised exceptions.

[Tully]

The highest regional percentage of I2a2 in Italy is 2 or 3% on the Adriatic coast*. You won't find more anywhere in Western Europe. Most of the I2a in Western Europe is actually I2a* or I2a1. I2a2 is normally found in the Balkans. I2a1 peaks in Sardinia and radiates around the west Mediterranean coasts (Spain, France, Italy, North Africa). I2a is quite common all over Spain, but especially around the Pyrenees.

* Some cities on the southern Adriatic coast (like Foggia or Brindisi) sometimes exceed 10% of I2a, but these are very localised exceptions.

That's cool, it's going to be very interesting to see if FTDNA can pull up more identifying markers, STR's that can show where the I2a2 in Ireland spread from? I think there will be some preliminary results in mid June. Whether the age of introduction is relatively recent or ancient and it's pathway to Eire is holding my complete attention.

[Maciamo]

I am pretty sure there will be more markers. It's just a matter of time.

[Ua'Ronain]

Greetings, I am also my first post here and I have tested into M423-Isles-A1
if you follow Ken's new additions to the I tree located on ken's site knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net if you click on FounderHaps.xls My paternal line comes from south Ireland (Cork County)

I was wondering where you get 8,000 years for the age estimate of I2a2? I am by no means an expert in this field so I was wondering if by 8,000 years you mean that is when it split off from the rest of haplogroup I?

Do you know if there are any other areas of Europe with any M423-Isles-A1 that might give us clues about where the clade came from?

I remember ordering my DNA test thinking I would get more answers in general but I seem to have found many more questions than answers.

[Maciamo]

I was wondering where you get 8,000 years for the age estimate of I2a2? I am by no means an expert in this field so I was wondering if by 8,000 years you mean that is when it split off from the rest of haplogroup I?

The split from I* is much older (about 24,000 years based on the current data). 8,000 years is the estimate age for the appearance of I2a2 itself. This is always older (sometimes a bit, sometimes a lot) than the TMCRA (time to most recent common ancestor shared by modern I2a2 people). This is because some lineages have died out and therefore cannot be taken into account in the calculation of the actual age of the defining mutations.

Haplogroup age estimations are still very unreliable and change a lot from year to year, but also from one specialist to another. Mutation rates are still a hotly debated issue and there is no concensus yet (not even close). So if someone says 10,000 years and another 5,000 years, there is no way to know who is right at present. My figures are averages from the most widely acknowledged estimations, some of which I have had to adapt to fit the chronology (some people just don't seem to realise that a subclade cannot be older than its parent haplogroup).

The age of the haplogroups mentioned on this website is often a bit older than you would find elsewhere because :

1) it's not just the TMRCA
2) it takes into account that only a small percentage of the European population has been tested so far and mostly in the British Isles, where the haplogroup diversiy is much lower than, say, in Anatolia or the Balkans. The more people will be tested and the older the age of the haplogroups will inevitably become. I don't know to what extent, but some of it has already been forecast in my estimations.

Do you know if there are any other areas of Europe with any M423-Isles-A1 that might give us clues about where the clade came from?

I haven't studied that in depth yet.

I remember ordering my DNA test thinking I would get more answers in general but I seem to have found many more questions than answers.

I think that is the case for most of us (geneticists included). The haplogroup tree keep evolving quickly and every new version leads to new interpretations or occasionally revolutionise our understanding of prehistoric migrations.

[Ua'Ronain]

Not to be picky at all but I have noticed that here and Wikipedia never even mentions that there are I2a2 folk outside of southeast Europe. I was wondering if when you have the time you might be able to add the information about I2a2 Isles clades and what splits them from I2a2a-Dinaric (SE European populations) I remember reading on the rootsweb haplogroup I forum located here http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.co...A-HAPLOGROUP-I that I2a2 has been found in over 200 Irish surnames, this from Ken Nordtvedt’s database. The direct quote is this “the bulk of I2a2-Isles is associated with Ireland. My
count of 200 is ONE per surname. It makes no sense for population studies
to keep a bunch from some surnames just because there is an active and
effective surname project administrator.” END QUOTE



I am sure you have seen the graph but if not it is located here http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/ once there it is located by clicking the founderhaps.xml

[Tully]

Ua' Ronain, It sure is going to be good when the I hpgroup tests at FTDNA are completed lets hope thay can provide more info on how all the I2a Isles clades got to Ireland. And how long they may have been domiciled in the Western Isles of the old UK. Maybe some come out this month.

[Ua'Ronain]

I was reading that two people have taken the walk the Y, one is I2a2-Isles-D and the other is an I2* I hope we find out more useful information or even SNPs. There is a little chat on another forum about the oldest Irish Haplogroup. It is not just I2a2 Isles A but about all the isles clades, which is the oldest and some theory as to how it got there. It at least makes for a good read. I wont post the adress for the forum here (might be in bad taste to post links to other forums?) but if you want it send me a message.

[Yorkie]

I2a2-Isles is believed to have been founded on the north German plain [Nordtvedt].

[Neander]

I think I2a2 represent the Walachians from Moldavia who came in Balkans together with Slavs.

Therefore, it is found mostly in the countries were Vlachs are present: Greece, Albania, Serbs, Bosniaks, and the highest percentage is in Dalmacia where a lot of Mauro-Vlachs were assimilated in Croatian popullation.

Here is distribution of this haplogroup

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...plogroupI2.png

[Marianne]

The colored areas of Greece are in perfect agreement with the spread of Vlachs. Note that the biggest part of the area they live is at the Pindos Mountains, in high altitudes that are very hard to approach, therefore mixing with other populations must have been very rare.

[Sprinkles]

I think I2a2 represent the Walachians from Moldavia who came in Balkans together with Slavs.

Therefore, it is found mostly in the countries were Vlachs are present: Greece, Albania, Serbs, Bosniaks, and the highest percentage is in Dalmacia where a lot of Mauro-Vlachs were assimilated in Croatian popullation.

Here is distribution of this haplogroup

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...plogroupI2.png

You seem to be neglectful in your representation of facts and figures to arrive at a certain predestined image of which your mind presumes to be truth and acquainted with what best suites your needs. There's no evidence of what you're talking about. In the map you posted there is no evidence that I2a2 arises from Moldovia, and the frequency of the halplogroup indicates that the origin is in Hercegovina.

As per quoted from where you obtained your map:
"Almost all modern nations in Central and Southeastern Europe have native Vlach minorities: Hungary, Ukraine, Serbia, Croatia, Macedonia, Albania, Bosnia, Greece and Bulgaria. In other countries, the native Vlach population have been completely assimilated by the Slavic population and therefore ceased to exist: Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia and Montenegro. Only in Romania and the Republic of Moldova, the Vlach (Dacoromanian or Romanian proper) population consist an ethnic majority today."

I'm certain I2a2 would be descended from areas of mountainous regions. This would best fit the model of the frequency and the highest frequency being prevalent in mountainous regions of eastern europe (hercegovina).

The articulation of your post seems to omit evidence that any person with reasonable information would conclude it to be absurd.

Ie. "Mauro-Vlachs: Reports from the mid-11th century tell how the Morlachs lived in the mountainous regions of Montenegro, Bosnia (Stara Vlaška), Herzegovina and on the Dalmatian coast. In the 14th century, some Morlachs moved northward and settled in present-day Croatia where later they would serve as frontier guardians in the Military Frontier between the Habsburg (Croatia) and the Ottoman (Bosnia) Empires, an area sometimes known as Morlachia"

This, here, we're talking about migrations 1000-500 years ago, which are much to soon to be considered migrations that caused widespread gene flow to produce frequencies seen in the populations.

If you have any evidence of what you're proposing please present it.

[Neander]

Look here:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...LF2L1YU7G0uW2Q

The highest divergence is in Ukraine.

Haplogroup I2a2 cannot be Paleolithic, while it is very new. It is spread only in the areas which were affected by Slavs-Vlachs during the Dark Ages.

The highest frequency in Dalmacia show that it has invaded these lands.

How came this haplogroup to Dinaric Alps?? We know that Haplogroup I has its center in the Scandinavia. So it must came from there, but no any invasion can be except of Slavic-vlach invasion during dark ages.

Or maybe your theory, suit your needs?

[Neander]

The Y-DNA I2a2b haplogroup is strongly correlated with the spread of Slavic languages, as is the subclade R1a1a7 [M458].

http://www.buildinghistory.org/dista...tml#conclusion

[Neander]

Let be whatever, it is not illyrian, definitely.

[Sprinkles]

Are you claiming that the frequency of i2a2 comes entirely from gene flow during the dark ages? If so, this claim is about as absurd as I have heard.


This is from your the beginning of your document document:
"East, respectively. In particular, whereas the Balkan microsatellite variation associated to J-M241 correlates with the Neolithic period, those related to E-V13 and I-M423 Balkan Y chromosomes are consistent with a late Mesolithic time frame. In addition, the low frequency and variance associated to I-M423 and E-V13 in Anatolia and the Middle East, support an European Mesolithic origin of these two clades. Thus, these Balkan Mesolithic foragers with their own autochthonous genetic signatures, were destined to become the earliest to adopt farming, when it was subsequently introduced by a cadre of migrating farmers from the Near East. These initial local converted farmers became the principal agents spreading this economy using maritime leapfrog colonization strategies in the Adriatic and transmitting the Neolithic cultural package to other adjacent Mesolithic populations. The ensuing range expansions of E-V13 and I-M423 parallel in space and time the diffusion of Neolithic Impressed Ware, thereby supporting a case of cultural diffusion using genetic evidence"

[Sprinkles]

Let be whatever, it is not illyrian, definitely.

Funny, since the cultural capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina. Secondly, haplogroup I2a2 has a high correlation with the presumed location of Illyrians, while, E1 does not show us any such correlation.

I think your post stands for itself in terms of synthesis and representation of information.

[Neander]

I don't see facts here.

It seems that in the time when other I subclades lived in the far North, I2a2 pop out with magic wind in the Balkan. Isn't this absurde??

[bosna501]

Yes Stolac in Bosnia was capital of Illyrians
and in Bosnia is absolut most of I2a2.

[Sprinkles]

Yes Stolac in Bosnia was capital of Illyrians
and in Bosnia is absolut most of I2a2.

Bosna was considered Croatian under various governments in the past, and still should be today.

I2a2 of Bosnian muslims is lower than that of Hrvati in Herceg-Bosna. The muslims in Herceg-Bosna show more gene flow than the Croats from other Y-haplogroups.

Stolac was the capital of Illyria. Stolac is in Hercegovina, not Bosna. This would mean that Illyrians would be a higher percent of I2a2 (which is found in the Croatian populations).