R1b-L21

[pcusack1]

I can only comment on the Jewish L21s I personally know about. I'm sure there are many more, but thus far I only know of two, and both of them trace their ancestry to Lithuania. One, Prager, has a surname that probably indicates that the surname, at least, was acquired in Prague. The other surname is Lubatinsky (anglicized to Lewis in the USA).

These two gentlemen have no haplotype neighbors in YSearch except each other and a couple of other Ashkenazim from Eastern Europe, who, as far as I know, have not had any SNP testing.

Thank you!

I understand from Genebase that my Y DNA comes from the Iraqui Plateau (Babylon?) and then Khazachstan (Jewish Khazaria?). My family has been Catholic for 6 generations at least, but those Jewish Surnames keep poping up as genetic matches (Cohen, Davis, Hara, Butler, and Jennings etc.) according to the Jewish Surnames Index.

I suspect that L21 originated in the Rhine River area. But I don't know how they got from Khazaria to Belgium. I understand that there were some Khazars who were exiled to Spain. There are some L21's in Spain as a possible remanant. They may have made their way from Spain to Netherlands, and eventually on Ireland.

 

[Maciamo]

I understand from Genebase that my Y DNA comes from the Iraqui Plateau (Babylon?) and then Khazachstan (Jewish Khazaria?). My family has been Catholic for 6 generations at least, but those Jewish Surnames keep poping up as genetic matches (Cohen, Davis, Hara, Butler, and Jennings etc.) according to the Jewish Surnames Index.

I suspect that L21 originated in the Rhine River area. But I don't know how they got from Khazaria to Belgium. I understand that there were some Khazars who were exiled to Spain. There are some L21's in Spain as a possible remanant. They may have made their way from Spain to Netherlands, and eventually on Ireland.

There is no connection between L21 and Iraq or Kazakhstan. What exactly did Genebase say ?

What I meant above was that if there is any Jewish L21 at all, they are not Jews from Israel but recent converts or adopted Europeans. If you are L21 your patrilineal line was Celtic back in the Bronze Age, not Jewish.

If you want to know whether you have inherited any Jewish blood, you should take an autosomal DNA test like 23andMe. There is a clear Irish cluster on their "Advanced Global Similarities". If you have any substantial Jewish ancestry you will not fit in it.

 

[pcusack1]

Genebase has a migration map for my general ancestry based on 91 markers.

The map show Iraqui Plateau and Khazachstan. I've found a paper trail that shows the Jewish Khazars Rabinidical Students travelling to Toledo for studies. I've also found a genetic match to a man in Madrid (Toledo) who has that rare marker DYS391=12 that I carry. This may be how the Khazars got to Spain.

Genebase has the Autosomal test. I'm checking it out. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[pcusack1]

I see now after reexamining the data that my indigenous population match is Irish, with a second, third , and fouth closest to Spainish origins.

My mother is an Ashkenazi Jew for sure.

Thnaks for all your help.

 

[carpathia]

the ashkenazic matches on the R Y-dna are, in the low countries especially, not at all unusual.

50% of dutch jews are in R1b so the L21 is nothing unusual.. I would fully attribute intermixture.

Secondly..I appreciate the hard word put in by the founder of this thread, but I MUST say, that everyone needs to step back a moment, and point out that L21-/+, R1b1b2a1b, P-312, are all basically PLACEHOLDERS..

not 'final destinations'..

The urge everyone has it to get their own SNP to cling to, with its own geographically defined locale to suit their liking, and that is not a reality in the case of R1b Hg in europe.

although the thread authors mape at /europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#R1b

IS a nicely fabricated map, It is totally unsupported to indicate, based on very scant ancient Y-DNA results, that the R1b/pseudo-celts are not the pre-eminent population in europe till 1500 B.C... The map seems to indicate that as recently as 2500 B.C., the west of europe was virtually devoid of the 'R' populations, and attributes beaker culture and megalithic populations ENTIRELY to Hg. I..

We can see from Otzi's MTdna , and various other recovered ancient DNA that in certain areas of central europe for instance, G / I1b Y-dna seems to have had a different/wider distribution at one point, but these few recoveries, usually along WITH 'R' samples from the same period, does not support the maps demographics... at all.

What we have is a very large inter-related european 'R' popultion, with what are effectively 'family' SNP's in the case of some fixed, isolated populations, while the majority clusters in a broad/wide center..

Most problematically, almost 85% of all Y-dna test results that are truly up-to-date (useful) with current SNP results, are from AMERICANS, and most of those are from the british isles, and most have no idea where in the isles they come from...

SO... you end up with a huge bulk of euro 'R' dna results that all track back to Britain and are showing affinity to the same SNP's, which ERRONEOUSLY leads the imaginative to build histories of how this came to be..

and the trap we are being led into is that those results are really no different than those you would find elsewhere from those of the same original source population, which includes most of proto-celtic europe.

TOO MANY people who get involved in reading these 'tea leaves' have their own agenda to make their ancestors be vikings, saxons,Suebi, etc.. based on a DNA test, and do not want to find they are proto-celts, which could be, and WERE included in, almost every group in europe.

How many americans from england now proclaim falsely ''I'm am I1a or R1a and this means I am a viking'', as they are totally ignorant of the population resettlements and transfers that took place into england?...
how many flemish or frisian (I1a-bearing) weavers sons' (10,000 - 100,000..more?) , moved to england to run a LOOM in 1700, and today their american descendent sees ''I1a" and starts running around with this nonsense..

The reality is that in few cases are these results truly informative of confimring some ancient DNA pathway, unless you are really far afield of the normal population demographics (the 'A' y-dna in modern york england), and even then it tends to devolve into a matter of whether the unusual result is from ancient factors or more likely a result of upheavals from the industrial revolution onwards

(Is the 'A'y-Dna a legacy of roman legionaries posted there in 70 a.d., or from a African mulatto slave settled in york with his owner circa 1750 A.D.).

My warning is that the more detailed and certain a allegation is concerning matters that are not even historically documented, the more likely its not accurate, or is frankly fanciful..

MOST of europe, except for the 'I' caucasians, the 'G' steppe people, the african-derived 'E', and the semitic 'J' populations...

(ALL of which totalled only account for less than 20% of europe-wide Y-dna population, and most of those are on the fringes of the continent where there was the most introgression from outside),

..are in 'R' Hg, and the various 'family' 'R' SNP's are frankly not of much concern outside of historically isolated and truly seperate populations, such as the Irish and Basque-
It is also not surprising that those are TWO 'R' populations that truly DO have their own geographic/ethically defined SNP's.. for the mass of the european 'R' / R1b1b2a1b, P-312 population, the significance of this ''gallo-celtic-british-germano'' etc.. designations is man-made, and not at all accurate.

People are deliberately GOING LOOKING for statistics that no matter how they were assembled/collected, tell them what they are hoping to find, and this is not science. this is wishful nonsense frankly. Most modern europeans except those with non-european Hg's noted above belong to the proto-celtic population that accounts for most modern europeans..

Trying to find population specific SNP's IS possible for isolated groups with no introgression and if you can find that in continental europe, be sure to tell me where..

These titles of celtic, germanic, slavic, nordic, mediterannean are for the most part cutural, and trying to tie a specific Y-DNA result to a group is meaningless especially for R1b1b2a1b, P-312..
unless at some FUTURE time we develop more meaningful population samples with MASSIVE, updated SNP contributions of actual europeans IN-SITU, you basically are left with,
AT THIS POINT, a lot of displaced americans throwing around opinions on things they do not understand concerning countries whose histories they are largely unware of, and who are contributing a OVER-ABUNDANCE of Y-dna samples from their displaced Isles' populations that slant any possibly evidentiary, meaningful conclusions..

R1b1b2a1b, P-312 etc.. was found and IS FOUND today, in all the above cultural groups cited.. thats not exciting or vikings in horned helmets, but that the reality.. Statisticians have noted from the beginning that you cannot get out good results unless you fed into your equation GOOD DATA.. we are trying to draw vast detailed conclusions from clearly, at best, partial data.

 

[pcusack1]

Jon Entine in his book "Abraham's Children" has a map p124 that shows Jews in the Rhine River area in the 6-8 th Century. Do we know where these R1b Jews came from -possibily Spain or Khazaria?

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Jon Entine in his book "Abraham's Children" has a map p124 that shows Jews in the Rhine River area in the 6-8 th Century. Do we know where these R1b Jews came from -possibily Spain or Khazaria?

This is interesting news. Jewish R1b?

 

[carpathia]

Jon Entine in his book "Abraham's Children" has a map p124 that shows Jews in the Rhine River area in the 6-8 th Century. Do we know where these R1b Jews came from -possibily Spain or Khazaria?

The jews on your map most likely emerged first out of ITALY which had a large roman-era jewish populartion of close to a million, but let me state that is my opinion only, and I have no scientific way to establish that. Moneylending was religously illegal in this area of germany, although jews in italy had decrees excepting them such provisions, so I assume that they purchased similar decrees from the duchies and rulers in germany, and opened up a new market for lending that was not yet saturated as was the case in Italy.

The jews of western europe can only be studied from their descendents in other continents today because almost all those communites obviously no longer exist.
The geneticists of jewish descent are also not eager to clearly, accurately unravel matters as their is often fear, possibly well-founded, that this would be used to incite problems for the state of Israel.

From the studies mostly of North American, Australian, Immigrant-israeli jews,
this is what we know-

The jews of the low countries / rhine region are / were very parentally intermixed with the resident gentile population.

The average descendent of Dutch jews has almost a 50% chance of falling into a west european Hg, R/I..

The female ancestry of askenazic jews is very heavily composed of, almost 33%, in the MTdna Hg of 'K'.. the 'K' Hg is not found significantly among the gentile population of these regions,
which is consistent with the jewish tradition that the maternal line is the line by which determination of whether the child is a jew is made.
This is considered problematic by some, as the sephardic community does not share the 'K' MTdna-
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002062#s3
"This is because more than one founder is likely to have existed within a given Hg, as we have shown using complete mtDNA sequencing for the Ashkenazi founding lineages within Hg K [5]. "


Sephardic and Ashkenazic communities of jews DO NOT share the same genetics in the same proportions, or at all in some cases..
Sephardic population have on average less or no euro introgression, (THE EXCETION BEING SPAIN/PORTUGAL for specific reasons)
and a higher percentage of Semetic paternal Hg ancestry / Ydna Hg 'J'.

Askenazic Levites are VERY interesting as they (levi, levy, leavit, etc..) are the Paternal-descended lower priestly class of Judaism..

Go to Ysearch.org, and pull up all the variants of Levy.
You will find over 1/3 of the entire population of descendants on average falls in Y-dna 'R1a', which is not natively found in the middle east, but is found in the regions of the former kazaria, as well as the eastern european surroudings of their immediate residence.

Less than 1/3 of the total levy population paternally is descended from a 'J' semitic or 'E' mediternanean/african Hg...

the remainder are mostly in Euro R/I, or steppe population like Hg 'G'.

I would suspect that a significant part of the R1a levites are the result of converting khazars who chose to convert to a priestly cast, instead of as a routine worshipper..although this is not actually permitted, no one could/did stop them IN MY OPINION.

As to the R1b in the western Ashkenazic populations, it is well known, and their is really no answer beyond either conversion of husbands marrying jewish females, or intermixing with the local population. The populations of all european and north african jews have significant semitic ancestry, which aligns with Mizrahi genetics of those who never left the levant, however a significant and in some cases even majority of Ashkenazic genetics in particular is often of european origin.

THIS-
http://www.plosone.org/article/slid...RI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0002062.t002

paper/diagram shows the prominent jewish MATERNAL Hg by global community,
the same are available from studies on Jewish Paternal Hg, but these are very often NOT peer reviewed and I have always seem deliberate flaws that are incorporated to undercount what are seen as gentile components and accentuate Semitic Hg counts inaccurately.
Because of disputes over the modern middle-east, as well as conflicts between askenazics and sephardic communities in Israel, it is viewed as undesireable to assess non-semitic components of the ashkenazic communities.
The reality of the MTdna study as you can see, is such that the communities are often not maternally related across continents or even in the same MT Hg's, and that a substantial portion of the communities seem to be genetically related at least partially to the host population, so its not really surprising that the same results occur paternally,

hope this helped to answer your question.

 

[pcusack1]

Thnank you for your attention.

I know there are a few L21's in Spain. In fact one in Madrid, possibly form Toledo - a Barretto is a good match to Y DNA ancesrty (23 /30 markers) with the DYS391=12 being a match. I though perhaps the Spainish L21 migrated to the Rhine River area before the 6th C.

My Indigeneous populations match shows a strong Irish match but also a strong Pyrennes match. The Ashkenazi and Sephardic intermixed in that area I read.

At a Genetic distance of 1, my top three Y DNA matches are Pyrennes. I suspect they were Jewish since my maternal mtDNA line and my praternal mt DNA are both Ashkenazi. My maternal father's line also appears to be Jewish. So that 3 /4 grandparents lines are Jewish at least.

So I think my Y DNA may be Jewish as well. And that an L21. There's a trace of L21 all the way from Spain to Italy to the Rhine. Could L21's possibly be Jewish before migrating to the UK.

Please forgive my ignorance. I'm still learning...

 

[carpathia]

Thnank you for your attention.

I know there are a few L21's in Spain. In fact one in Madrid, possibly form Toledo - a Barretto is a good match to Y DNA ancesrty (23 /30 markers) with the DYS391=12 being a match. I though perhaps the Spainish L21 migrated to the Rhine River area before the 6th C.

My Indigeneous populations match shows a strong Irish match but also a strong Pyrennes match. The Ashkenazi and Sephardic intermixed in that area I read.

At a Genetic distance of 1, my top three Y DNA matches are Pyrennes. I suspect they were Jewish since my maternal mtDNA line and my praternal mt DNA are both Ashkenazi. My maternal father's line also appears to be Jewish. So that 3 /4 grandparents lines are Jewish at least.

So I think my Y DNA may be Jewish as well. And that an L21. There's a trace of L21 all the way from Spain to Italy to the Rhine. Could L21's possibly be Jewish before migrating to the UK.

Please forgive my ignorance. I'm still learning...

From a Occams Razor perspective, I think that your L21 matches make a lot more sense for a paternal line based out of England from the current pool of testee's... especially if you already know that your paternal line in its known history is based in England.

That said, their are likely only few actual spaniards of known provenance who have been assigned to the SNP, so its very possible that if a proportional number of participants were surveyed in Iberia that L21 could be found in similar numbers to its English contingent.. thats non-confirmable until (IF) more broad SNP studies are done.

Comparing allele counts is often non-productive for a goodly number of R1b cases unless you have some paper trail to confirm it with, a unusual Ht/Hg for the locale, or a detailed extended STR for both yourself and the compared party.

If you are trying to track a source for your Jewish ancestry that also is a R1b paternal line in england, I would look into a standard genealogical methods along with DNA comparison. You need to access some immigration records or shire records of birth etc.. I have heard that england has some of the most complete birth records, so this should give parental information/origin that may help you.

 

[pcusack1]

Yes, thank you.

I do have an extensive genealogical report I did on my roots which includes 6 or 7 generations back on all bloodlines.

My praternal line comes out of Tipperary Ireland before coming to Canada in 1834. But my surname is supposed to have come from Normandy and Guienne (Cussac, France) where there are few or none of L21's. I suspect they came from the Rhine. There are surnames that I'm a gentic match to including Shuman, King, Mithcell, and Keith and dozens of others which are showing a Jewish in the Jewish Surnames Index. This is another reason I suspect that L21 could be Jewish. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Many thanks for all your help.

 

[carpathia]

a Barretto is a good match to Y DNA ancesrty (23 /30 markers) with the DYS391=12 being a match.

So I think my Y DNA may be Jewish as well. And that an L21. There's a trace of L21 all the way from Spain to Italy to the Rhine. Could L21's possibly be Jewish before migrating to the UK.

Please forgive my ignorance. I'm still learning...

BTW.. I failed to note the 23/30 .. that is NOT a significant or close enough match that I would be of note unless you had a unusual allele or two in common AND some sort of a paper trail that was convicing to connect you.

Also, the R1b is almost certainly not jewish in the sense that the male line originates with Israelites... In my opinion.. I think a gentile male is involved although its possible he converted, but that would be the extent of the Jewish factor as pertains to the Y-dna..

good luck

 

[pcusack1]

My Y DNA does come out of Babylon and Khazaria. I suspect the were Israelities.

 

[carpathia]

My Y DNA does come out of Babylon and Khazaria. I suspect the were Israelities.

The 'R' Hg is not found among native levant semites nor the region of iraq/babylon.

If they came from khazaria they were converts from the steppes, not israelites, and the R1b would not be likely.. R1a, found throughout eastern Ashkenazim or even a steppe Hg would be the probable finding in that case.

We DO know you have paternal ancestry from the British Isles, and your Hg/SNP are fully consistent with that.

You can believe anything you wish, but there is a difference between a rational belief and a unsupported one..

this is what you are looking for- http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html

best wishes.

 

[pcusack1]

the ashkenazic matches on the R Y-dna are, in the low countries especially, not at all unusual.

50% of dutch jews are in R1b so the L21 is nothing unusual.. I would fully attribute intermixture.

There must be R1b Jews, I think. The question is where did they come from and how did they end up in the Low countires? I think they came form Babylon, Khazaria and on to Spain. The Khazarian Correspondence writes about the connection between Spain and the Khazarians. Then on to the Rhine River through Easter France before migrationg to the Isles. It's jsut an hypothesis.

 

[pcusack1]

I can only comment on the Jewish L21s I personally know about. I'm sure there are many more, but thus far I only know of two, and both of them trace their ancestry to Lithuania. One, Prager, has a surname that probably indicates that the surname, at least, was acquired in Prague. The other surname is Lubatinsky (anglicized to Lewis in the USA).

These two gentlemen have no haplotype neighbors in YSearch except each other and a couple of other Ashkenazim from Eastern Europe, who, as far as I know, have not had any SNP testing.

Today, I discovered that my Jewish ancestry also probably also comes out of Lithuania from Khazaria since I match a Jewish surname from a Jewish Lithuania databank.

The Jews were in Khazaria from the 5 th -13 th C. They were in Luthania from the 6th C onward. And were in the Netherlands from the 6th- 8 th C. However, I also match the Sephardic Jews. Perhaps the intermixing in the Pyrennes lead to this migration pattern as my L21 Y DNA shows. But could there be R1b Luthanian Jews from Khazaria and Babylon?

 

[pcusack1]

Sean Silver who stuies R1b Jews states on his webpage:

The R1b haplogroup is the most common haplogroup in Western Europe, yet it is found in only a small percentage of Ashkenazi Jews (roughly 10%).

 

[javonoL21]

Crusades

I also want to add that haplogroups tend to leave a trail behind them. L21 is most common in the British Isles nowadays (especially the North-West, i.e. Ireland and Scotland), but it left a trail behind it showing the migration path, from the Alps and southern Germany through northern France and across to Britain.

There isn't enough Y-DNA data from Eastern Europe and the Near East yet, but if L21 is found along the Danube corridor and in Anatolia, it would mean that it already existed prior to the great Italo-Celto-Germanic migration. If not, then it must have appeared north of the Alps.

Maciamo as an alternative opinion, could not the Crusades in the twelfth and thirteen centuries be an event where Normans(Brittany) migrated across Europe into Anatolia leaving a trail behind them. What I am saying is why should occurrences of L21 across Europe been seen as a migration into Britain(Northern France), why can this not be seen opposite.

 

[Maciamo]

Maciamo as an alternative opinion, could not the Crusades in the twelfth and thirteen centuries be an event where Normans(Brittany) migrated across Europe into Anatolia leaving a trail behind them. What I am saying is why should occurrences of L21 across Europe been seen as a migration into Britain(Northern France), why can this not be seen opposite.

That is very unlikely. The crusaders didn't have time to procreate an army of children on their way to the Holy Land. If they did it would have been in places where they settled, like Cyprus or the Levant, but not in southern Germany or along the Danube. Many crusaders from Britain and Brittany passed through Italy and boarded ships from there to the Byzantine Empire or North Africa. There is no substantial L21 in those regions.

In general Christian armies (from the Middle Ages onwards) did not leave a lot of bastards behind them. The bigger was the population of Europe, the smallest the impact of bastards. Abortion also existed since the Middle Ages (although not generally safe), but the most common way to get rid of an unwanted child was to abandon them in the wild (often to death, unless they were picked up by someone) or stop feeding them just after birth. I doubt that many women would have wanted to raise a bastard to a passing father.

 

[martin parra]

That is very unlikely. The crusaders didn't have time to procreate an army of children on their way to the Holy Land.

Many crusaders from Britain and Brittany passed through Italy and boarded ships from there to the Byzantine Empire or North Africa. There is no substantial L21 in those regions.

Maciamo, where is even the ONE study to show this??.. you keep saying this is here but not in another nation. There is no study i find anywhere that this has to been proved!.. you are assuming these things from fancy, and there is not proof if this,

can you show me of a link to studies that show proof of these wild claims..! also in my familiy nation of mexico the christian army found much time to proceate children,.. so much time that today almost all the indian people of mexico are mestizo of part europeans fathers.

Please start to show facts instead of many opnion and claims without proof.