R1b-L21

Maciamo, where is even the ONE study to show this??.. you keep saying this is here but not in another nation. There is no study i find anywhere that this has to been proved!.. you are assuming these things from fancy, and there is not proof if this,

L21 is a new marker (first identified about one year ago). Scientific studies take time to be peer-reviewed and published. At present the evidence about the spread of R1b-L21 comes from commercial testing. The biggest collection of results about L21 that I know is FTDNA R-L21 Project (424 results to this day). You will see on the map that most of the L21 tested so far cluster around Germany and the British Isles. Except one person in Croatia and one in Romania, there are no L21 in south-east Europe, and none in the Middle East or North Africa.

can you show me of a link to studies that show proof of these wild claims..! also in my familiy nation of mexico the christian army found much time to proceate children,.. so much time that today almost all the indian people of mexico are mestizo of part europeans fathers.

The situation in the Americas was different from Europe. In the last 1000 years, soldiers inside Europe just didn't kill men in conquered territory and rape their women or take them as wives. European societies were too mutually similar for this to happen.

In my example about crusaders, they had no interest in killing or raping other Europeans. They were the first pan-European army. Their enemies were the Muslims, not other Christians. If they did conceive bastards within Europe, it was probably with consenting women, like prostitutes.

From the Renaissance onwards, European fought for their sovereign and country. They were part of well organised armies and just followed orders. Rapes or local women did occasionally occur, but were often punished by military officers (Napoleon is known to have executed some of his own soldiers for raping locals in Austria and Germany).

Conquistadors were far from home and did pretty much what they wanted. Their own government had little control on them. Many of them were outlaws in their own country. Even Hernan Cortes was being pursued by the Spanish army in Cuba when he arrived in Mexico. He would have been imprisoned or executed had he not managed the incredible feat of overthrowing the Aztec government.

Conquered Amerindians were not Christian at first, which gave the colonisers an excuse to kill or rape them at whim.
 
In my example about crusaders, they had no interest in killing or raping other Europeans. They were the first pan-European army. Their enemies were the Muslims, not other Christians. If they did conceive bastards within Europe, it was probably with consenting women, like prostitutes.

It is widely accepted that prior to the Crusades European Jews where attacked and their lands and businesses taken from them(I'm sure this was a time of rapine and sanguinary lusts ). Some sources from the time of the crusades say that over 6 million people migrated into Anatolia to fight against the Muslims, this figure is widely ridiculed though, to say that bloodlines of Europe where not changed at all because of the Crusades is a joke.
 
It is widely accepted that prior to the Crusades European Jews where attacked and their lands and businesses taken from them(I'm sure this was a time of rapine and sanguinary lusts ).

That's my point, Jews weren't Christians, and weren't seen as Europeans at the time. They were closer to the Saracens from a crusader's point of view.

Some sources from the time of the crusades say that over 6 million people migrated into Anatolia to fight against the Muslims, this figure is widely ridiculed though, to say that bloodlines of Europe where not changed at all because of the Crusades is a joke.

It is obvious that the Y-DNA landscape of Europe changed because of the crusades. Many young men left and never came back, without ever procreating. This has had for effect to "prune" some lineages in their home countries. Others married and had children in the Holy Land. If the crusades had any major genetic impact in displacing haplogroups geographically it is in the Near East (Cyprus included). What I am saying is that I doubt that the crusaders left a major genetic trail (of bastards) on their journey through Europe itself.
 
Maciamo;351819 said:
L21 is a new marker (first identified about one year ago). Scientific studies take time to be peer-reviewed and published.

At present the evidence about the spread of R1b-L21 comes from commercial testing. The biggest collection of results about L21 that I know is FTDNA R-L21 Project (424 results to this day). You will see on the map that most of the L21 tested so far cluster around Germany and the British Isles. Except one person in Croatia and one in Romania, there are no L21 in south-east Europe, and none in the Middle East or North Africa.

yes maciamo, this is as I tell you exactly before.
there is no proof to show this claim now of the european nations with the different DNA R1b type.
The FTDNA L21 people, you as I know this, they are samples from anglo americans nearly all!, by large numbers, almost vast amount of them are anglo american.

So you say before, there is L21 in angland and none is in Italy,.. and I say to you show me of this evidence, and you then show me testing from almost all anglos in america, who consist the FTDNA L21 joiners! This is no proof, respectful to you, that L21 is in england and none in the italian europeans.

It is proof that the anglos who is most of the entire FTDNA members are from england with this gene! when there are no sample of any amount to tell in number to other nations this is not proving anything on the basis. It only prove you have no same to compare, so please to not jump at declare to ALL that something is so, when no tests have yet to be made Maciamo. It is right to help others understand, but to say this is so, and it is not shown, this is not help it makes many confusing for them.
 
The 'R' Hg is not found among native levant semites nor the region of iraq/babylon.

If they came from khazaria they were converts from the steppes, not israelites, and the R1b would not be likely.. R1a, found throughout eastern Ashkenazim or even a steppe Hg would be the probable finding in that case.

We DO know you have paternal ancestry from the British Isles, and your Hg/SNP are fully consistent with that.

You can believe anything you wish, but there is a difference between a rational belief and a unsupported one..

this is what you are looking for- http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/occam.html

best wishes.

As best as I can tell, my R1b1b2a1b6 Y DNA ancestors came out of Babylon and Jewish Khazaria as supported by the Y DNA. Then they went on to Eastern Spain (Lerida, Jacentian, Cantumbria, Gerona) and Northern Portugal. They may have stopped before that in Narbonne, France -the Jewish cultural centre. From Eastern Spain,they travelled to Ireland perhpas via France -Cussac, Guienne France. This is supported by tmy personal Y DNA testing reults. The highest matches are an Anderson (England), O Hara (Jewish Surname form Tipperary Ireland) and O'Connell (Tipperary) all at 12 GD on 54 markers. I'll be albe to confirm this when I receive a book I've ordered on Sephardic Jews and Genealogy which inclkudes the "Cusack" surname.
 
I also want to add that haplogroups tend to leave a trail behind them. L21 is most common in the British Isles nowadays (especially the North-West, i.e. Ireland and Scotland), but it left a trail behind it showing the migration path, from the Alps and southern Germany through northern France and across to Britain.

There isn't enough Y-DNA data from Eastern Europe and the Near East yet, but if L21 is found along the Danube corridor and in Anatolia, it would mean that it already existed prior to the great Italo-Celto-Germanic migration. If not, then it must have appeared north of the Alps.

A friend of mine is R1b1b2a1b*. His paternal side is from the Ukraine- (Galicia) Drohobych. FTDNA tested....
 
My family has been Catholic for 6 generations at least, but those Jewish Surnames keep poping up as genetic matches (Cohen, Davis, Hara, Butler, and Jennings etc.) according to the Jewish Surnames Index.

I understand how you would see Cohen as being Jewish but Davis, Hara, Butler and Jennings are all gentile names.
 
On what planet is O'Hara a Jewish surname?:LOL:

On none that I know of, but that has already been hashed out with Cusack on another forum (quite awhile back, as a matter of fact).
 
R1b L21 question

I just joined today as I found the information fascinating.

I am not very familiar with the all of terms that are normally used in these posts. I would appreciate if someone could explain how L21 fits in the greater R1b picture. As an example, how does it compare to other markers such as M269?
thanks.
 
O'Hara could be a Japanese surname though (大原) :giggle:
There was a funny scene in the movie 'Go for Broke' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_for_Broke!_%281951_film%29, about Japanese Ohara's. An all Japanese American unit in WW II is lead by a southern Anglo American who is not happy to have all Asian troops. When he hears that a new man is named O'Hara, he cheers up only to find that the man is really a Japanese Ohara.

Also, while Cohen is a classic Jewish name, Cohan and Coen are common in Ireland and not Jewish. Coen is a form of Cowan.
 
That's because Jews use european names. In Poland every second Jewish name ends with ski and cki. Take Goldbaum for other example, the name comes from IE languages, german in this case.
 
I think that you didn't read the whole section about R1b. The table with the subclade description mentions clearly (I hope) that L21 is also found in Germany and that it is Celtic.

I suppose that you are referring to the R1b chart. Even there L21 is mentioned as a branch of the Celtic S116. Britanno-Irish doesn't mean it is exclusive to Britain and Ireland but just that it is most common there (maybe due to a founder effect).

It is dangerous to read a haplogroup/subclade description thinking that it means "exclusive to ... region/country". It is never the case. We can at least indicate where it is the most common. Only a few cases of L21 have been found in Germany so far, and other kinds of R1b (S28, S21, S116 or just M269) are all more common in Germany.

Note that the main subclade of L21 (M222+, formerly known as R1b1c7) is "almost" exclusive to Britain and Ireland, with a peak in Northern Ireland and Scotland.

I tried to explain in the R1b section that R1b came from the Black Sea region, moved west along the Danube to reach southern Germany, then expanded all over Western Europe from there. Southern Germany being the starting point of this "Italo-Celto-Germanic colonisation" it is only natural that most of the R1b subclades should be found there. Only the ones that came into existence after this expansion (about 4000 years ago) are found in more specific regions (like M222).

My bold: I find that interesting because, although I am Scottish and L21+, I am Negative for M222.:unsure:
 
Note that the main subclade of L21 (M222+, formerly known as R1b1c7) is "almost" exclusive to Britain and Ireland, with a peak in Northern Ireland and Scotland.
My bold: I find that interesting because, although I am Scottish and L21+, I am Negative for M222.:unsure:
The area of Scotland where M222 peaks, is in the extreme southwest of the Lowlands around Galloway. This area is just across the North Channel from County Down, Ireland.

Nice map on this page: http://www.e-travelguide.info/dumfries-galloway/
 
The area of Scotland where M222 peaks, is in the extreme southwest of the Lowlands around Galloway. This area is just across the North Channel from County Down, Ireland.

Nice map on this page: http://www.e-travelguide.info/dumfries-galloway/

That would explain it; although I was born in the Lowlands, my father's family is from much further North(though not quite the Highlands).
 
Carpathia,

I am one of the displaced Americans of which you speak. I have not desire to think that I'm decedent of some warrior Viking culture. The fact is that most early European settlers of America were either indentured servants or people on the bottom of European society looking to improve their lot in life. So my guess is that the first of my father's side was at the bottom of whatever society he came from. I am R-L21, R-DF13, which is most prevalent (in terms of percentage of population) in Ireland, Scotland, Brittany and Wales. Given that my name is Bailey, I'm pretty sure (but not certain) that my Fatherline comes from one of those places. I can only go back 6 generations to 1760ish. My goal is to find what part of Europe I came from without regard to the culture or status in society. Maybe some Americans want to believe that they are a long lost Viking warrior, but my guess is most of us would just like to know where they came from.
 

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