R1b S116

[motatalea]

there are a bit of questions
1- Is that right that R1b L21 `s origin is britain and not alpine region in central europe?and if that so does that mean that R1b s116 went to britain and converted to L21 there ?

2-Is that right also that R1b M167 has been originated in spain and not in central europe?

3-Is that right that R1b S116 which went to scandinavia and greece(dorians) during the late halstatt was only s116 with out any mutaions or was mostly R1b S28?

4-What is the different between halstatt and la tene cultures? were they both in the same region and the same time? and were they mostly R1b S28?

5-you have told me lately that R1b S28 associated with bronze working and not associated with languages ,could you tell me please what does bronze working mean?

6- Is that right that R1b L21 was there in britain before halstatt S28 migration? and is that right that S28 has bben associated with bronze working there also?
7-Is that right that English (including eastern english and western english) are closer to welsh ,scottish and Irish in autosomal dna and mt-dna than to Germans?

[Maciamo]

there are a bit of questions
1- Is that right that R1b L21 `s origin is britain and not alpine region in central europe?and if that so does that mean that R1b s116 went to britain and converted to L21 there ?

No, L21 already existed when the Proto-Celts reached the Alps. It is likely that a founder effect from the Celtic colonisers made it the dominant subclade in the British Isles.

2-Is that right also that R1b M167 has been originated in spain and not in central europe?

Ditto.

3-Is that right that R1b S116 which went to scandinavia and greece(dorians) during the late halstatt was only s116 with out any mutaions or was mostly R1b S28?

On my R1b migration map, S116 does not mean S116*, but S116 + possibly various subclades under it. I don't have enough space to write all the possible subclades (and anyway there isn't enough data to be sure).

4-What is the different between halstatt and la tene cultures? were they both in the same region and the same time? and were they mostly R1b S28?

La Tène is merely the continuation of Hallstatt. Archaeologists gave two different names because the centre of the culture moved west during the Iron Age.

5-you have told me lately that R1b S28 associated with bronze working and not associated with languages ,could you tell me please what does bronze working mean?

Bronze working means making objects or weapons in bronze. It is called the Bronze Age. In Europe, Iron working developed in the late Hallstatt period. The Roman empire is also part of the Iron Age.

6- Is that right that R1b L21 was there in britain before halstatt S28 migration? and is that right that S28 has bben associated with bronze working there also?

My theory is that the Proto-Italo-Celts brought bronze-working with them from The Black Sea/Anatolia/Caucasus region to Central Europe, and from there to Britain, France, Iberia, Italy, etc. Bronze Age suddenly appears in Britain and Iberia around 4200 years ago, which is what makes me think that R1b arrived around that time. Given that most of the British S28 is found in eastern England, I doubt that S28 was part of the original migration. Most of them must have been M269, S116 and L21 (and maybe some subclades of L21 like M37 which is found in Germany, Britain and Ireland as well).

7-Is that right that English (including eastern english and western english) are closer to welsh ,scottish and Irish in autosomal dna and mt-dna than to Germans?

This question is to vague to answer. I'd say that many (but not all) East English should be closer to the Dutch and North-West Germans, while many West English are probably closer to the Welsh. But that's just an informed guess.

[DavidCoutts]

Hi,

I was born in Scotland, and my parents families have been there for generations. I am S116+. Does this mean I am "pure" Celt, in so far as anyone can be gentically. Or is there a possibility of the S116+ originating with other races?

I'm very much a novice at this, so I would be grateful for any information/help you can give me.

[rms2]

Hi,

I was born in Scotland, and my parents families have been there for generations. I am S116+. Does this mean I am "pure" Celt, in so far as anyone can be gentically. Or is there a possibility of the S116+ originating with other races?

I'm very much a novice at this, so I would be grateful for any information/help you can give me.

Have you been tested for L21 (S145) yet? If not, you should. It is very prevalent in Scotland. L21 is downstream of P312 (S116).

[DavidCoutts]

No, I have'nt been tested for L21 yet. What would it mean either way(wether or not I was L21)?

[rms2]

No, I have'nt been tested for L21 yet. What would it mean either way(wether or not I was L21)?

I guess that depends on how much meaning you yourself attach to y-dna results.

L21 appears to be a mostly Celtic marker that probably originated on the Continent and was brought to the British Isles from there.

[DavidCoutts]

Is L21 the same as R1b1b2a1a2f? Because I don't see that in the list of R1b Subclades?

[rms2]

Is L21 the same as R1b1b2a1a2f? Because I don't see that in the list of R1b Subclades?

Yes, L21 is R1b1b2a1a2f on the 2009 ISOGG R Tree:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html

FTDNA uses the YCC (Y Chromosome Consortium) Tree, however, which has L21 as R1b1b2a1b5.

[DavidCoutts]

Yes, L21 is R1b1b2a1a2f on the 2009 ISOGG R Tree:

http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR09.html

FTDNA uses the YCC (Y Chromosome Consortium) Tree, however, which has L21 as R1b1b2a1b5.

I've just been confirmed as L21/R1b1b2a1a2f. I take it this means I am a "pure" Celt?

Awww...I wanted to have Viking ancestors!

[rms2]

I've just been confirmed as L21/R1b1b2a1a2f. I take it this means I am a "pure" Celt?

Awww...I wanted to have Viking ancestors!

Don't give up hope. There is plenty of L21+ in Scandinavia, especially Norway.

http://tinyurl.com/ygkuf2e

If you are an FTDNA customer at all, please join the R-L21 Plus Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

Congratulations!

[DavidCoutts]

Don't give up hope. There is plenty of L21+ in Scandinavia, especially Norway.

http://tinyurl.com/ygkuf2e

If you are an FTDNA customer at all, please join the R-L21 Plus Project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

Congratulations!

Thank you!

[Wilhelm]

What is this obsession with Vikings ?

[rms2]

What is this obsession with Vikings ?

I don't suffer from it.

[DavidCoutts]

What is this obsession with Vikings ?

It's not an obsession - I can give up Vikings any time I want!

But you have to admit that Vikings are pretty damn cool. Norse DNA might also explain my occasional berserker rages and the urge to throw attractive women over my shoulder and carry them off to my Longboat(which is very emabarrasing as I have'nt built one yet).

[LeBrok]

It's not an obsession - I can give up Vikings any time I want!

But you have to admit that Vikings are pretty damn cool. Norse DNA might also explain my occasional berserker rages and the urge to throw attractive women over my shoulder and carry them off to my Longboat(which is very emabarrasing as I have'nt built one yet).

You just described male behaviour of all the races, lol. Actually today's Norse nations are more tolerant towards women than anyone else in the world. And if I'm not mistaken, they always treated women more equal, except middle ages, I think.

[DavidCoutts]

You just described male behaviour of all the races, lol. Actually today's Norse nations are more tolerant towards women than anyone else in the world. And if I'm not mistaken, they always treated women more equal, except middle ages, I think.

IIRC, women in pre-Christian Celtic society enjoyed a great deal of freedom and privilage; this was possibly connected to the Celtic religion, which placed a greater emphasis on the Goddess than Gods.

[Mikewww]

It's not an obsession - I can give up Vikings any time I want!

But you have to admit that Vikings are pretty damn cool. Norse DNA might also explain my occasional berserker rages and the urge to throw attractive women over my shoulder and carry them off to my Longboat(which is very emabarrasing as I have'nt built one yet).

What's important is what's in the movies. The Vikings have had good play there. Of course, Kirk Douglas is a real Viking. Google "The Vikings (1958)" LOL.

[DavidCoutts]

What's important is what's in the movies. The Vikings have had good play there. Of course, Kirk Douglas is a real Viking. Google "The Vikings (1958)" LOL.

No need to Google it; I've watched it several times.

Love the scene of Douglas running along the oars of the Longship - apparently he did that for real. No stuntman and this was long before CGI was invented.

[rms2]

No need to Google it; I've watched it several times.

Love the scene of Douglas running along the oars of the Longship - apparently he did that for real. No stuntman and this was long before CGI was invented.

I grew up watching that movie. It's one of my all-time favorites, although Tony Curtis' barely-disguised Brooklyn accent is a little hard to accept from a Viking.

Janet Leigh was looking good as the Welsh princess Morgana.

[Mikewww]

No need to Google it; I've watched it several times.

Love the scene of Douglas running along the oars of the Longship - apparently he did that for real. No stuntman and this was long before CGI was invented.

I honestly think this is why we like Vikings. They are shown as a brave, masculine, tough people and victors... plus, the word Viking has "king" in it so it has a nice ring to it.

The Celts have no star like Kirk Douglas to edify them.

The Greeks and Romans wrote the history on the old Celts, and they had political reasons to make sure not to glorify them significantly. There just isn't enough written history to make a good a story on them, for that age when they were in power. It's the Roman view at the end of the age that counts. The Celts didn't write anything down... too bad.

Perhaps Mel Gibson can be the Celtic hero as William Wallace in Braveheart. The only problem is that although the movie public knows this was a Scots rebellion, few probably know they were a Celtic heritage people.

Heck, the Normans would probably try to claim Wallace as one of theirs, rather than a Celt, but how does one detect a Norman? Their genetics are quite elusive and mixed.

Perhaps Clive Owen is another alternative as King Arthur, but the same problems ensue. How much of the general public is aware the mythical (or not) Arthur was a Briton which means he was Celtic? As in Wallace, some would claim him to be something else anyway, a Roman.

The Celts weren't thinking ahead when they didn't record history.

[DavidCoutts]

As far as I'm aware, Wallace's family was originally from Wales. They moved north to Scotland perhaps generations before Wallace himself was born.

Wallace was almost certainly a "pure" Celt. Rober de Bruce on the other hand was a right mongrol; a Scottish-Norman raised in England.

Oh, and Bravehart made The Vikings look like a History Channel documentary. Woad? The Scots stopped wearing that centuries before Wallace was born. And don't get me started on the Battle of Stirling Bridge taking place on a flat plain with no river in sight...

[Catchabus]

to meet my 10 post quota

[Catchabus]

one more time

[Catchabus]

hehehe. I just finished re-watching the Nova special on the Vikings (which also contained a scene from the Douglas/Curtis film). I highly recommend it. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/vikings/

Transcript: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcr...08vikings.html

[Mikewww]

It is doubtful that the Beaker Culture (2800-1900 BCE) was already Indo-European (although they were influenced by the Corded Ware culture), because they were the continuity of the native Megalithic cultures. ...

Maciamo, I think this is your narrative. If not let me know and I'll correct.

Why do you think the Beaker Culture was an outgrowth of the Megalithic cultures? In some places, like the Stonehenge area, it looks like the Beaker folks were a new people, with different physical attributes.