Eupedia Forums
Site NavigationEupedia Top > Eupedia Forum & Japan Forum
Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 60

Thread: Lie about mtDNA haplogroup frequencies in Spain.

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    03-06-09
    Posts
    1


    Country: United States



    Lie about mtDNA haplogroup frequencies in Spain.

    This article: (Distribution of European mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups by region in percentage) States the following lie : Spain has an amazingly large percentage of "other" haplogroups (23%). About half of them are of probable Native American origin (A, B, C), one quarter of African origin (L1, L2, L3), and the remaining quarter of European, Middle-Eastern or Indian origin (HV, M, N, R).
    The above statement has no evidence of being true although it states (several sources were used and averages recalculated by merging the data available) the article does not cite its sources although it can be certain that its largest source is Mitosearch which I Have warned against elsewhere because a large percentage of Latin Americans can trace their direct maternal ancestry to Spain but are incorrect.
    There are a number of scientific studies that disprove the first statement including


    Joining the pillars of Hercules: mtDNA sequences show multidirectional gene flow in the western Mediterranean.

    Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans

    The sources above show that Spain has about 1% L (African mtDNA) which is comparable to England. And 0% Native American mtDNA
    Is there anyway I can fix this mistake or notify someone who can?
    Sincerely Truthdna
    Last edited by Truthdna; 04-06-09 at 03:06.

  2. #2
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    07-05-09
    Posts
    49


    Country: United States



    Quote Originally Posted by Truthdna View Post
    This article: (Distribution of European mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) haplogroups by region in percentage) States the following lie : Spain has an amazingly large percentage of "other" haplogroups (23%). About half of them are of probable Native American origin (A, B, C), one quarter of African origin (L1, L2, L3), and the remaining quarter of European, Middle-Eastern or Indian origin (HV, M, N, R).
    The above statement has no evidence of being true although it states (several sources were used and averages recalculated by merging the data available) the article does not cite its sources although it can be certain that its largest source is Mitosearch which I Have warned against elsewhere because a large percentage of Latin Americans can trace their direct maternal ancestry to Spain but are incorrect.
    There are a number of scientific studies that disprove the first statement including


    Joining the pillars of Hercules: mtDNA sequences show multidirectional gene flow in the western Mediterranean.

    Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans

    The sources above show that Spain has about 1% L (African mtDNA) which is comparable to England. And 0% Native American mtDNA
    Is there anyway I can fix this mistake or notify someone who can?
    Sincerely Truthdna
    There are quite a lot of racists out there who are putting uninformed and biased information on the internet- it doesn't make them right and you have to sort through all the data to find the credible common denominator before drawing any conclusions. I read many things biased against people from theMediterranean but it's usually put there by someone who is unsure of his own roots or genetic background. I have even read comments on this site by members who seem biased in one way or another but usually because understanding genetics is not easy. Try Stormfront if you need a good laugh. The level of ignorance is very deep.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    According to this mtDNA maps, there is no such "others" haplogroups in Spain. Spain has the same mtDNA haplogroups found in all Europe.











  4. #4
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Yes, this is a huge mistake. I have no idea how such a large (22%) other figure was arrive at. Quite bizarre.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by JackMack View Post
    There are quite a lot of racists out there who are putting uninformed and biased information on the internet- it doesn't make them right and you have to sort through all the data to find the credible common denominator before drawing any conclusions. I read many things biased against people from theMediterranean but it's usually put there by someone who is unsure of his own roots or genetic background. I have even read comments on this site by members who seem biased in one way or another but usually because understanding genetics is not easy. Try Stormfront if you need a good laugh. The level of ignorance is very deep.
    Indeed, there are many deranged racists out there. And, a great percentage of them are poorly educated and VERY stupid. The fact is that the majority of Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) genetically correlate and match much more with other European Atlantic Fringe peoples than with Mediterraneans. There are, unfortunately, quite a number of racial myths out there as regards everything from the Greeks originating from Ethiopia to the Romanians being mainly Gypsy. Sick world... I've had my own battle here with one nut-job. I blew him out with the facts...

  6. #6
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Yes. As you can see in the map, Iberian mtDNA haplogroups are extremely similar with that of Germany or Norway, typically European. There are no "odd" haplogroups.
    I don't know where this 23% figure comes from, It's quite clear that there is some agenda behind it

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
    Join Date
    17-07-02
    Location
    Lothier
    Posts
    9,413


    Ethnic group
    Italo-celto-germanic
    Country: Belgium - Brussels



    After double checking the sources, it seems that the 23% all come from commercial tests, so it is very possible that all those people are in fact Latin Americans who think they have Spanish matrilineal ancestry but in fact don't (or don't understand the difference between maternal and matrilineal). As this looks suspicious to me too, I will remove the data from the table and recalculate it based on scientific studies only.
    My book selection---Follow me on Facebook and Twitter --- My profile on Academia.edu and on ResearchGate ----Check Wa-pedia's Japan Guide
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-12-09
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    L2

    Ethnic group
    Portuguese
    Country: France



    It is wrong to say that Spain has about 1% L (African mtDNA) which is comparable to England. Of course if you count in the average regions like Basques or Catalans who do not have L lineages, you get an average not very high but still between 2 and 3 % .
    I doesnt not make sense to average regions with a very different history.

    The highest % of African mtDNA


    But if you still want to do an average from the main studies, you get 2.10%

    Alvarez et al. (2007) found 9 L lineages out of 312 (2.90%)
    Pereira et al. (2005) found 8 L lineages out of 496 (1.61%)
    Casas et al. (2006) found 9 L lineages out of 108 in Cordoba (8.30%, very high! )

    So 26/916 gives 2.83 % whereas in England you get only 2 sequences for the same sample size which is about 0.2 % and 15 times lower.

    And of course in regions like Galicia you have % like 3.50, in Cordoba about 8.30 % etc

  9. #9
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-12-09
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    L2

    Ethnic group
    Portuguese
    Country: France



    And even if the frequency is clearly higher in Portugal (for example Pereira et al. (2005)found 32 sequences in 549 individuals that is a mean of 5.83% with frequencies of 11.38 % in the South and many other studies found the same levels) than in Spain , an average of almost 3% in Spain is without parallel in the rest of Europe

  10. #10
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by luis77 View Post
    It is wrong to say that Spain has about 1% L (African mtDNA) which is comparable to England. Of course if you count in the average regions like Basques or Catalans who do not have L lineages, you get an average not very high but still between 2 and 3 % .
    I doesnt not make sense to average regions with a very different history.
    The highest % of African mtDNA
    But if you still want to do an average from the main studies, you get 2.10%
    Alvarez et al. (2007) found 9 L lineages out of 312 (2.90%)
    Pereira et al. (2005) found 8 L lineages out of 496 (1.61%)
    Casas et al. (2006) found 9 L lineages out of 108 in Cordoba (8.30%, very high! )
    So 26/916 gives 2.83 % whereas in England you get only 2 sequences for the same sample size which is about 0.2 % and 15 times lower.
    And of course in regions like Galicia you have % like 3.50, in Cordoba about 8.30 % etc

    And, how about the studies that included M3 as Sub-Saharan mt-DNA. M3 is Asian. Researchers have done that in Portugal, increasing the SS frequencies by over a third. Instead of 3% or less nationally, which is a much more valid figure, they calculated over 5%. Moreover, think about all the samplings that were not representative of the native population and should never have been included. Participants from Alcacer do Sal (people isolated by disease and slavery from the general population)? Are you freaking serious? Some "geneticists" are incompetent or have political agendas (Pereira is likely one of them).

  11. #11
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-12-09
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    L2

    Ethnic group
    Portuguese
    Country: France



    None of these studies includes M3 but only L lineages.

    You also mentionned Achilli et al 2007 (Mitochondrial DNA Variation of Modern Tuscans Supports the Near Eastern Origin of Etruscans). Here are the numbers they reported for Spain (exluding Basque people which is very different genetically and by the way wants to separate form Spain) :

    Spain, northwestern 8/216
    Spain, central 1/148
    Spain, Andalusia 2/114
    Spain, northeastern 3/179

    Which gives again 14/657 = 2.13 % while England is reported at 2/335 = 0.60 %

    So apart from Basque Country and Catalonia, we see that Spain has an average > 2% without parallel in the rest of Europe...

  12. #12
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Germany has 2% of L, it's the average in Europe. There is already a thread about mtDNA L : http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25475

  13. #13
    ^ lynx ^
    Guest


    I resize this map:


  14. #14
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-12-09
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    L2

    Ethnic group
    Portuguese
    Country: France



    Germany has 1/335 reported by Achilli at al 2007 which gives 0.30% only, France has 1/332 = 0.30%, Poland has 1/542 = 0.18% and so on.

    Only Italy, in some regions, has frequencies between 2 an 3% like in Latium 4/138 = 2.90%, Volterra 3/114 = 2.63% etc

  15. #15
    ^ lynx ^
    Guest


    Interesting study about the most predominat haplogroup in Europe (H): CLICK

    Source: http://genome.cshlp.org/

  16. #16
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    28-12-09
    Posts
    20

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    E1b1b1b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    L2

    Ethnic group
    Portuguese
    Country: France



    Scotland 0/1199 = 0%, Norway 0/556, Ireland 0/300 etc all numbers reported by Achilli et al 2007

  17. #17
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Quote Originally Posted by luis77 View Post
    Germany has 1/335 reported by Achilli at al 2007 which gives 0.30% only, France has 1/332 = 0.30%, Poland has 1/542 = 0.18% and so on.

    Only Italy, in some regions, has frequencies between 2 an 3% like in Latium 4/138 = 2.90%, Volterra 3/114 = 2.63% etc
    Actually Germany has 1.2% :
    " Combined data from two large mtDNA studies provides an estimate of non-Caucasoid maternal ancestry in Italians. The first study sampled 411 Italians from all over the country and found five South Asian M and East Asian D sequences (1.2%) and eight sub-Saharan African L sequences (1.9%). The second study sampled 465 Sicilians and detected ten M sequences (2.2%) and three L sequences (0.65%). This makes a total of 3% non-white maternal admixture (1.3% Asian and 1.7% African), which is very low and typical for European populations, since Pliss et al. 2005, e.g., observed 1.8% Asian admixture in Poles and 1.2% African admixture in Germans.
    (Plaza et al. 2003;
    Romano et al. 2003)

  18. #18
    ^ lynx ^
    Guest


    Luis77 you could've put the link to the wikipedia...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macro-h..._L_%28mtDNA%29

    ...to summarize all your points.

  19. #19
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    lol that's what I was going to say too. He even uses the same words : "without parallel in the rest of Europe..." lol

  20. #20
    ^ lynx ^
    Guest


    Actually, if you look at the "history" of that wikipedia article, you'll see that it was recently modified. These machupichus never give up.

  21. #21
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    If we look at Y-DNA African admixutre, Germany or Austria have more than Spain :

    "Sub-Saharan African Y-chromosomes are much less common in Europe, for the reasons discussed above. However, Haplogroups E(xE3b) and Haplogroup A spread to Europe due to migrations from Northeast Africa, rather than the slave trade. The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%). By contrast, North Africans have about 5% paternal black admixture.

  22. #22
    ^ lynx ^
    Guest


    Thanks for the info Wilhelm, but let's stay on topic (mtDNA)... don't feed the troll.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
    Join Date
    02-10-09
    Location
    Spain
    Posts
    1,661

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    There is nothing else to talk about mtDNA. The map you showed says it all. There is no odd mtDNa haplogropus in Iberia. The distribution is exactly as Germany or Norway.
    The "other" mtDNa haplogroups in Spain is 7% just like in Denmark or Wales. (mtDNA Table, Eupedia)

  24. #24
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Of all the countries recorded, Italy has the highest "Other" mt-DNA haplogroups, 16.5%.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Cambrius (The Red)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    27-06-09
    Posts
    2,640

    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H3

    Ethnic group
    Gallaecian Celtic
    Country: USA - Ohio



    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    There is nothing else to talk about mtDNA. The map you showed says it all. There is no odd mtDNa haplogropus in Iberia. The distribution is almost exactly as Germany or Norway.
    The "other" mtDNa haplogroups in Spain is 7% just like in Denmark or Wales. (mtDNA Table, Eupedia)
    6-7% seems to be the average...

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 28-09-19, 12:05
  2. New mtDNA & Y-DNA frequencies for the Basques
    By Maciamo in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 14-10-18, 21:19
  3. More Early Neolithic mtDNA from Spain
    By A. Tamar Chabadi in forum Neolithic & Chalcolithic
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 27-11-11, 20:19
  4. New data on Slovak Y-haplogroup frequencies
    By Rudiger Roy in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 25-09-09, 15:41
  5. Y-haplogroup frequencies in Austria & South Germany
    By Rudiger Roy in forum Y-DNA Haplogroups
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 18-07-09, 18:35

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •