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Thread: The Indo-European languages legend.

  1. #1
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    Question The Indo-European languages legend.



    Europeans R haplotypes used to sepak Dene-Caucasian Vasconic and other non identified languages,when middle eastern farmers brought agriculture to Europe they brought their nostratic languages.

    Every actual ie European language is the result of the creolisation between local language and the language of nostratic speaking new incomers.


    1/The list of Indo-European proto roots(nearly 1000)below contains many borrowing from Semitic,Kartvelian,Uralic and northwestern Caucasian.
    (I will put it laterly)
    Also majority of those roots are very distant from English counterparts (the "English gloss" coulumn)

    2/Of course,these proto roots are not shared by all ie sub-families and if we count the ie common roots(to all ie subfamilies
    -and not even all ie languages)the number will be reduced drastically.*


    3/There is a heavy non ie substartum in all ie languages which is visible at best in conjugation,word order,syntaxe,lexicon and grammatical features of the ie languages.

    4/By analogy with Semitic languages,we can see that there is a huge core of common lexicon,syntaxe,grammar and conjugation shared by Semitic languages but no such way between ie languages.

    5/There are some common and strict charcteristics of Semitic languages that stand as if the Semitic family is an original pure family and not similar to creolisation,spracbund,superstartum and substratum features that are seen in ie languages.
    For example:
    a/ie "dokhtar" semitic "okht"
    Semitic "okht" is feminine form of "akh"(brother) whereas "sister" and "brother" are very distant.

    b/English 1/"book",2/"writes",3/"desk",4/"bibliotheque",5/"youth school" are similar meaning but different rooted words whereas in Arabic these words are both similar meanings and from the same root:1/"kitab"2/"yaktubu"3/"maktab"4/"maktaba"5/"kuttab"


    6/ie languages look like as variying degrees of superstratumisation,creolisation and sprachbund of already existing non ie languages(which retained some of their lexicon,grammar,syntax,accent&conjugation original features)as suggested for example by the heavy non ie substratum of Greek,Sanskrit,German etc...

    * QUOTE
    What we see here looks very much like a dialect map of languages that occur near each other and so exchange influences with adjacent languages. The theory that goes with it is called the "wave model," that innovations spread out across the field like waves in a pond. The line marked #1 in red surrounds the Satem languages. The line marked #2 in blue surrounds Greek and the Italic languages (like Latin), where we have voiceless sounds for Indo-European voiced aspirates, i.e. ph in Greek and f in Latin for Indo-European bh (Germanic languages have . The line marked #3 in light green surrounds the Italic and Celtic languages, which have passive forms of the verb in -r, e.g. Latin laudor, "I am praised" (active laudô). The line marked #4 in light purple surrounds the "North-West" group of languages, which share some common vocabulary that does not occur elsewhere among Indo-European languages. The line marked #5 in dark green surrounds the south-eastern languages that have a prefixed vowel in the past tense or aorist, e.g. Greek élipon, "I left" (present leípô). The line marked #6 in gray surrounds northern languages where (according to Pyles and Algeo) "medial schwa [an indefinite vowel] was lost." The line marked #7 in orange surrounds the western languages that share some common vocabulary not found elsewhere. The line marked #8 in light blue surrounds northern languages that have a dative plural in -m, e.g. Gothic dagam, "to/for days" (nominative singular dags, dative singular daga -- Modern German now has -n in the dative plural, den Tagen, but -m in the [masculine/neuter] singular, dem Tag), or Russian dnyam, "to/for days" (nominative singular dyen [with the final "soft" sign], dative singular dnyu). The line marked #9 in dark purple surrounds the Indo-Iranian languages, i.e. the Indic and Iranian, where (according to Pyles and Algeo) "schwa became i" -- though there are many features that unite the Indo-Iranian group, including vocabulary items, e.g. the god Mitra in Sanskrit and Mira in Iranian (Avestan, Persian). Finally, the line marked #10 in yellow surrounds Greek and Armenian, where Mallory and Adams say, "[T]here were close contact relations between Greek and Armenian" [p.79].



    Arabic/Italian:
    1/idhe al thuraya we al 9amar ma3ana kama bil sabt lan namuta fil ghara amma addili al sayf wa al mitraqa./se l'astro e la luna sono con noi come di (nel) sabato non moriremo in[Arabic "ayn"=where]guerra ma damme la spada e il martello.
    2/barid,qaidh,mitraqa,sayf,mawt,thawr,sawt,dawra/freddo,caldo,martello,spada,morte,toro,sono,giro.
    Arabic/Greek:
    1/sa ohibbu an aktuba./tha filo na grafo.
    2/ward,thawrayn,khobz,lobb,qafa./rodos,tawrin,bekos,lobos,kefa.
    Arabic/Persian:
    mawt,sama,mar',djay,maridh, thuraya./morde,asman,mard,yaye,bimar, sitare.
    Arabic/English:
    1/Istaqsini kam ana tawil min hom./Quest me how tall I am than them.
    2/Ente ma3lul we huwe thakhin./Thou are ill and he is thick.
    3/3ayn,3onq,tho3ban,3asfur,wazz,djady,baqara,yad,khomm,bany,qad,sawt./eye,neck,serpent,sparrow,goose,goat,buck,hand,home,bind,goad,sound.
    Arabic/French:
    mawt,haql,dalw,dawra,wazz,mahr,maridh,ghurab,kassar,miqass,mir'a./mort,agro,diluer,tour,oies,mer,malade,corbeau,casser,ciseau,miroir.

    Possible reconstructed proto Semitic numbers(1 to 10):ahd,thi[nayn is deleted because it's the Semitic dual ending],thle[th is deleted beacuse it's the broken plural of fu3l],arb??,hams??,sits,sab,tham,tis[=ie 10-1]a(''a''like in arab/aarab[non arabs]=very ancient nostratic suffix??)]a,dash(from ihdash=11).
    Russian(archaic ie language??)numbers

    odin,dve,tri,chetire,pjat,shest,sem',vosem,devjat, desjat.

  2. #2
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    I agree that there must have been some sort of hybridization between the languages of the various people who settled in Europe (or anywhere else).

    English is itself a hybrid of Anglo-Saxon, Norse and Norman French. But Norman French was already a hybrid of Norse and Old French, whereas Old French was Vulgar Latin with strong Gaulish Celtic and Frankish influences.

    Old Norse was an evolution of Proto-Norse, which developed from the early Iron-age Proto-Germanic. Based on the haplogroup composition of Scandinavia, it is likely that this Proto-Germanic language was hybrid of Indo-European languages (Proto-Slavic and Proto-Celto-Italic ?) with the indigenous languages of the pre-Germanic Europeans (associated to Y-DNA haplogroup I).

    In your examples above I noticed the similarity between the English "home" and the Arabic "khomm". It may just be a coincidence, but if it is not, it could be imagined that this word descends from a Paleolithic language shared by Europeans (haplogroup I) and Middle-Easterners (haplogroup J). It may not be the best example, but I think it makes senses that the original IJ people had a common communication language, and that some words still in use nowadays could be descended from them.

    Other similarities might just be loan words, notably around the Mediterranean. I suspect that the Latin "vacca" (cow) was a loan word from the Etruscans, who came from the Near East (probably around modern Israel-Palestine-Jordan) and spoke a Semitic language, or at least a tongue influenced by Semitic languages. The Etruscans did bring cattle with them to Italy, as attested by mtDNA on modern Italian cows.
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    Arabic "khomm" nowadays mean "maison de volailles" by a semantic change as languages tend to "find" different meanings for synonims.

    But in the Berber language(related to Arabic via Semitic superstartum undergone by the Berber language "akham" means HOME)

    It's more likely that Berber is kushitic language that undergo Semitic sprachbund as there is more common vocabulary between Semitic and ie as between Semitic and Berber(works of Berber linguist Chaker)

    Pre proto ie and Semitic are both Nostratic languages with very smilar grammar conjugation endings,morphology,word order,inflective chracter,cases(and not ergation as Dene-Caucsian languages).

    The "original" R1b haplogroup sharing Europeans spoke languages related to Dene-Caucasian macro-family.

    The "alteraction" between local R1's and J+E3b newcomers give rise to the actual ie European languages.

    1/Gramamr
    Arabic: ana/anta/huwe/nahnu/antom
    Persian: men/to/u/ma/shoma
    English: I/thou/he/we/you
    French: je/tu/il/nous/vous

    2/Conjugation
    Persian: onha khasten
    English: they quest
    French: ils questionnent
    Arabic: hom (similar to "them")yastaqsun

    3/Vocabulary
    Arabic "mawt",Spanish "muerte", French "mort", Persian "morde", Hebrew "mawet" all meaning DEATH.
    Arabic "thuraya", Akkadian "ishtar", Hebrew "esther" , Persian "sitare", English "star" , Greek "asteri", French "etoile", Italian "stella" Berber "ithri" all meaning STAR.

  4. #4
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    That's interesting that the Arabic word for "you" is "anta". The Japanese is "anata" and in Bahasa Indonesia it is "anda".

    Quote Originally Posted by humanbyrace View Post
    3/Vocabulary
    Arabic "mawt",Spanish "muerte", French "mort", Persian "morde", Hebrew "mawet" all meaning DEATH.
    Arabic "thuraya", Akkadian "ishtar", Hebrew "esther" , Persian "sitare", English "star" , Greek "asteri", French "etoile", Italian "stella" Berber "ithri" all meaning STAR.
    These are potential words for the hypothetical Palaeolithic language of the IJ people of Europe and the Middle East. They are very basic words used in an every day basis by pre-agricultural nomads, so in a sense it's not surprising that this kind of words should have the same Palaeolithic root.

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    I'll say Myth, and indeed the indo-european theory as aryanic concept nowadays is more and more debunked ... how is this possible many to fell to this kind of narrative through the modern historiography I am still amused, even more when as such is still forced as mainstream linguistic pillar!

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Axion View Post
    I'll say Myth, and indeed the indo-european theory as aryanic concept nowadays is more and more debunked ... how is this possible many to fell to this kind of narrative through the modern historiography I am still amused, even more when as such is still forced as mainstream linguistic pillar!
    Aside your contemptuous tone, what is exactly your point? I would say, concerning the linguistic aspect?

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    I'm not sure IE and Semitic have the same depth in time or that they spread around in the same way, so the differences are not based by force on a concept of linguistic "purity" only. The "creole" theory seems very unbased to me.

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    I was not clear: I want to say: "creole" concerning PIE; that said, even descendant tongues are still far from true creolisation, spite we know substrata was at play.

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