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Thread: The Celts of Iberia

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    Very interesting. Have to investigate U152.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Inaccurate, at least when it comes to y-dna. L21 is found at overwhelming frequencies in the British Isles and is significant in SE France and SW Germany.

    And testing for L21 just began at the end of October of 2008! It wasn't added to FTDNA's Deep Clade-R test until January of this year, so the collection of data has really only just begun.

    U152 is another R1b1b2 subclade found in both the old homelands of the Celts and in Britain.

    It does begin to appear that the Celts actually migrated from West Central Europe to the British Isles and Iberia.
    Thank you for contributing this information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Now, you are just being plain silly, Velli... Are you so insecure with what you are that you try to provoke and insult people; attempting to paint THE OTHER something he / she / they are not, to assuage the poor image you may have of yourself? That is called a form of mental illness, budster. Time to stop the nonsense. You come off as some angry, frustrated little boy. Take a long look in the mirror.

    OK, so "celtic" is essentially a cultural category, that's easy enough to understand given what we know historically. However, the fact remains that a good part of Western Iberia (particularly the north west) matches or correlates with the haplogroup (more importantly haplotype) dominant in other ACCULTURATED "celtic" regions of Europe's Atlantic Rim.

    As far as SS African MT-DNA goes, all I have to say to you is: LIVERPOOL, BRISTOL, CARDIFF... And, there is NO argument where "SS" DNA (BOTH Y and mt) originated from in those areas.

    Time to move on to productive things...

    What part of the facts do you have trouble understanding?

    Portuguese are mainly dark of hair (true)
    Portuguese are mainly dark of eye (true)
    Portuguese are mainly dark of complexion (true)
    Portuguese have more SS African mtDNA than other Europeans, even in North Portugal (true)

    England as a whole has about 0.6 pc SS African mtDNA while South Portugal has 10 pc plus, Central Portugal 6 pc plus and North Portugal 3 pc plus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    What part of the facts do you have trouble understanding?

    Portuguese are mainly dark of hair (true)
    Portuguese are mainly dark of eye (true)
    Portuguese are mainly dark of complexion (true)
    Portuguese have more SS African mtDNA than other Europeans, even in North Portugal (true)

    England as a whole has about 0.6 pc SS African mtDNA while South Portugal has 10 pc plus, Central Portugal 6 pc plus and North Portugal 3 pc plus.
    The reality of things is HARDLY as simple as you try to make it. You are no longer worth responding to. Do you have a pathological fixation with certain things?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Inaccurate, at least when it comes to y-dna. L21 is found at overwhelming frequencies in the British Isles and is significant in SE France and SW Germany.

    And testing for L21 just began at the end of October of 2008! It wasn't added to FTDNA's Deep Clade-R test until January of this year, so the collection of data has really only just begun.

    U152 is another R1b1b2 subclade found in both the old homelands of the Celts and in Britain.

    It does begin to appear that the Celts actually migrated from West Central Europe to the British Isles and Iberia.
    Inaccurate ?

    I looked at the R-L21 map you posted in the R-L21 thread. What i saw is that this haplogroup is wide spread in Europe, from Norway and finland to Spain and Romania with a peak in Germany. All we can say is that first it's an european haplogroup found in every countries, and two that maybe germans do more Y-DNA test than other continental european countries.
    The R-L21 is 4000 years old, at that time the celts as we know them didn't even existed. The first celtic culture, hallstatt, started in 1200 BC and reached central Iberia from SW France around 600 BC and then spread to West Iberia through the Douro and Tage valley. Do you think that Spain and south west France are celtic ?

    It seems that R-L21 is the main subclade of R1b in the British isles, can you say so for Southern Germany and SE France ?
    How many R-L21 in Galicia : 0
    Just because you decided to call R-L21 celtic don't mean that it's celtic...

    U152 is labelled Gallo-Italo-Alpine, what does that really mean ?? Celtic, Italic, Rhaetic, Ligurian ? Makes no sens to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    I have the L21 marker. I discovered such earlier this year. It's found heavily among the Basques and some other Atlantic Rim peoples.
    So R-L21, a celtic hg, is also heavily found among the Basques...

    Sorry, i find all these DNA stuff interesting, and Maciamo did a great job with all his maps about that subject, but i will never rely on the sole Y-DNA to define ethnicities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    The reality of things is HARDLY as simple as you try to make it. You are no longer worth responding to. Do you have a pathological fixation with certain things?...
    Reality is simple.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    What part of the facts do you have trouble understanding?

    Portuguese are mainly dark of hair (true)
    Portuguese are mainly dark of eye (true)
    Portuguese are mainly dark of complexion (true)
    Portuguese have more SS African mtDNA than other Europeans, even in North Portugal (true)

    England as a whole has about 0.6 pc SS African mtDNA while South Portugal has 10 pc plus, Central Portugal 6 pc plus and North Portugal 3 pc plus.
    Let's see now...

    My hair is a medium reddish-brown.

    My eyes are grey-blue.

    My complexion is fair-to-medium.

    My Y-DNA haplogroup is R1b (Atlantic Modal Haplotype).

    My mt-DNA haplogroup is H1 (Germanic and Basque makers).

    Oh well, I guess by your standards I couldn't possibly be of Portuguese / Galician / Iberian descent...

    Would you like a physical description of some of my neighbors? Let's see there is Mrs. A, dark blond, blue eyes and pale skin... Wait, better yet, come and visit the region and do a bit of ethnography. I'm certain the fresh air will do you some good.
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 09-07-09 at 06:34.

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    It may well be impossible to prove definitively that any R1b or R1a marker equals celtic ethnicity. At best, one can say that he / she MAY have a distant celtic genetic connection by virtue of haplogroup marker matchings with culturally celtic peoples.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smertrius View Post
    So R-L21, a celtic hg, is also heavily found among the Basques...

    Sorry, i find all these DNA stuff interesting, and Maciamo did a great job with all his maps about that subject, but i will never rely on the sole Y-DNA to define ethnicities.
    L21 is not "heavily found among the Basques".

    Where did you get the idea that it is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smertrius View Post
    Inaccurate ? . . .
    Yes, what you wrote was highly inaccurate. You wrote that Celtic migrations were a joke and that Celtic culture spread throughout Western Europe without the aid of the actual Celts themselves going anywhere (or words to that effect).

    I disagree, and I think the evidence indicates otherwise.

    But this thread is about light hair and eyes, so I will probably very soon (in the next day or two) start a separate thread about the Celts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    What part of the facts do you have trouble understanding?
    Portuguese are mainly dark of hair (true)
    Portuguese are mainly dark of eye (true)
    Portuguese are mainly dark of complexion (true)
    Portuguese have more SS African mtDNA than other Europeans, even in North Portugal (true)
    England as a whole has about 0.6 pc SS African mtDNA while South Portugal has 10 pc plus, Central Portugal 6 pc plus and North Portugal 3 pc plus.
    Did I say ENGLAND? Nope...I said Liverpool, Bristol and Cardiff, didn't I? Of course England IN GENERAL would have very low levels of SS-mtDNA.

    A little bit of reading for your spare moments:

    BROWN, N. Jacqueline, Dropping Anchor, Setting Sail: Geographies of Race in Black Liverpool (2005) Princeton University Press, Oxford.

    Enjoy...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Yes, what you wrote was highly inaccurate. You wrote that Celtic migrations were a joke and that Celtic culture spread throughout Western Europe without the aid of the actual Celts themselves going anywhere (or words to that effect).

    I disagree, and I think the evidence indicates otherwise.

    But this thread is about light hair and eyes, so I will probably very soon (in the next day or two) start a separate thread about the Celts.
    Great idea! We need a Celtic thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambria Red View Post
    Let's see now...

    My hair is a medium reddish-brown.

    My eyes are grey-blue.

    My complexion is fair-to-medium.

    My Y-DNA haplogroup is R1b (Atlantic Modal Haplotype).

    My mt-DNA haplogroup is H1 (Germanic and Basque makers).

    Oh well, I guess by your standards I couldn't possibly be of Portuguese / Galician / Iberian descent...

    Would you like a physical description of some of my neighbors? Let's see there is Mrs. A, dark blond, blue eyes and pale skin... Wait, better yet, come and visit the region and do a bit of ethnography. I'm certain the fresh air will do you some good.

    You are being self-centred and twisting my words as usual.

    The majority of Portuguese are dark or even very dark like Ronaldo and this general rule is not altered by the presence of a few lighter individuals.

    A single Y-dna lineage neither makes nor mars a supposed "Celtic" heritage.

    Your mtDNA could even be Basque (non-Celtic), as you stated above.

    What does your Celticity consist of when you even think and talk in Portuguese, a language derived from Roman conquerors?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smertrius View Post
    Inaccurate ?
    I looked at the R-L21 map you posted in the R-L21 thread. What i saw is that this haplogroup is wide spread in Europe, from Norway and finland to Spain and Romania with a peak in Germany. All we can say is that first it's an european haplogroup found in every countries, and two that maybe germans do more Y-DNA test than other continental european countries.
    You can find I1 from Turkey to Iberia, but that does not make it a Mediterranean or pan-European haplogroup. Its origin is in Scandinavia. As for R-L21, it has been found in such places as Spain or Lithuania, but it is undeniable from the distribution map that it is far more common in southern Germany, Britain and Ireland.

    The R-L21 is 4000 years old, at that time the celts as we know them didn't even existed. The first celtic culture, hallstatt, started in 1200 BC and reached central Iberia from SW France around 600 BC and then spread to West Iberia through the Douro and Tage valley. Do you think that Spain and south west France are celtic ?
    The term "Celt" is often associated with the cultures of Hallstatt and La Tène, but what makes you think that the Central European Bronze-Age cultures from 2000 to 1200 BCE (Unetice, Tumulus, Urnfield) were not related and also (Proto-)Celtic speaking ? If there is a genealogical, cultural and linguistic continuity, we are talking about the same people. It might be more correct to call them Proto-Celts, but that's really just a fine nuance.

    Just because you decided to call R-L21 celtic don't mean that it's celtic...
    U152 is labelled Gallo-Italo-Alpine, what does that really mean ?? Celtic, Italic, Rhaetic, Ligurian ? Makes no sens to me.
    I used the term "Gallo-Italo-Alpine" to describe U152 because it was found predominantly in Gaul, Italy and around the Alps. I used "Gallo-" because ancient Gaul also included modern Belgium and the Rhineland, where R152 is well represented. This way I could cut out the "Belgo-Rheno-" in the description. "Franco" would have been anachronistic and misleading since the Franks only gave their names to France in the 6th century and are not related to R-U152.

    The label "Gallo-Italo-Alpine" does not mean that all people who come from Gaul, Italy or the Alps are all R-U152, but the other way round - R-152 come from Gaul, Italy or the Alps. I expressly avoided using ethnic terms such as Celtic, Italic, Rhaetic or Ligurian because each ethnic group is susceptible to be composed to numerous haplogroups. That's why I used only geographic terms to define the geographic region where a particular haplogroup is the more common. The problem is that Italic can either refer to the Italian peninsula or the Italic tribes. I avoided placing the "Italic" at the end (as in "Gallo-Alpo-Italic") so as not to make it sound like the "Italic people" but like "Italy" (a geographic region of Europe).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    Genetically, the Portuguese are just Celticised people of South-west Europe, mostly dark of hair, eye and skin, with more SS African admixture than other European nations.
    What are you trying to achieve with such arguments ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What are you trying to achieve with such arguments ?

    They are merely facts about the Portuguese as a nation which cannot be refuted.

    They are mostly Celticised Iberians with more SS African mtDNA than is usual in Europe.

    These are undeniable facts.

    As far as hair and eye colour goes,the subject of the thread, the Portuguese tend to have a lower incidence of light hair and light eyes than probably any other European nation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vallicanus View Post
    They are merely facts about the Portuguese as a nation which cannot be refuted.

    They are mostly Celticised Iberians with more SS African mtDNA than is usual in Europe.

    These are undeniable facts.

    As far as hair and eye colour goes,the subject of the thread, the Portuguese tend to have a lower incidence of light hair and light eyes than probably any other European nation.
    You are horribly wrong about MANY things, sir. You want to paint an entire culture / people "black" (excuse me, "swarthy and curly haired") because of your twisted prejudices, racial-ethnic myopia and tendentious, blatantly biased interpretation of Sub-Saharan mt-DNA levels (IN ONE STUDY) which, even though the percentages generally trend higher in Portugal than other European countries, are still very trivial, have absolutely NO effect on national phenotype and occur considerably more in the most lightly populated areas with unique social histories and containing segments of NON-REPRESENTATIVE population groups. Not to mention that there is great debate concerning the age and origin of much SS mt-DNA recorded throughout Portugal, as well as the greater Iberian Peninsula and other areas of Europe. Far Western Iberia, where all of Portugal is geographically located, was, according to the experts, probably the OLDEST Paleolithic refuge in Europe. Does that mean anything to you!? Do some research.

    Galicia and Northern Portugal NEVER had any black / negroid populations or influences to speak of. Even Portugal's largest northern city, Porto, has only a small percentage of blacks TODAY. So where did this "SS" mt-DNA recorded in the northern regions come from? Not from the Slave Trade and not from any Muslim / "Moorish" residuals. In fact, most of it is probably non Sub-Saharan and VERY old, perhaps going back to Western Iberia's earliest settlers - to the Paleolithic period. The origins of at least some of this DNA may actually be Asian / Eurasian. No one knows for sure yet.

    You are saying that the Portuguese are MAINLY DARK EVERYTHING. Who in heavens name anointed you an expert in ethnography and physical / biological anthropology? What does the word "mainly" mean to you. Given your odd-ball thinking, probably 99% of the total population. You have no idea what you are talking about! You are a novice with an ethnocentric agenda against people not to your liking. It doesn't take a genius to come to that conclusion.

    To demonstrate your incredible lack of knowledge, you mentioned in another post that Ronaldo (Cristiano Ronaldo, the Portuguese football star) is very dark. I'll tell you oh omniscient one... LOL...why he is VERY dark (never mind that he gets a lot of sun): because he is NOT NATIVE ORIGIN Portuguese. His maternal grandmother is CAPE VERDIAN. RACIALLY MIXED, GET IT!? You know, CAPE VERDE, one of Portugal's old Black African colonies. He's part BLACK just like Man Utd's Ryan Giggs, the pride of Wales. Do some reading before you post. Individuals who are racially mixed are NOT OF ETHNIC NATIVE ORIGIN IN ANY COUNTRY IN EUROPE! I'm sure even you can understand that. Your prejudice and ignorance is blinding.

    Another bit of news for you, Mr. pseudo physical anthropologist. Which nation in the E.U. likely has the highest levels of miscegenation in Europe today? Answer: The United Kingdom. Wikipedia lists a 2005 estimate which indicates that, at minimum, 2% of all couples in the UK are white / non white unions. The rate currently is probably substantially higher, according to Wikipedia. And, this excludes mixed race couples not legally married. The most recent surveys have mixed race births in the U.K. at 3.5% (half of those children are of black / white parentage). Mixed race individuals in the entire country are expected to exceed the total resident Indian and Pakistani population over the next several years. Now, that should not mean a hill of beans to you, should it?

    You live in a glass house, sir. Don't cast stones at others and don't exaggerate facts to color people something they are not.

    Portugal is probably 60% or so dark haired and dark eyed. Like ALL Southern European peoples, on average, Portuguese have somewhat darker complexions than Northern types. The reasons for this are well known, and they have little if anything to do with race. Overall, from all that I have seen, Portugal averages out to about medium in skin tone. Hair and eye color show significant variance from region to region and fall somewhere in line with what the maps here indicate. I feel, however, that light hair in all the northern provinces (Portugal and Galicia) should be recorded at about 35% or so. The Portuguese / Galicians are hardly the darkest people in Europe.

    BTW, are you so warped in your thinking that you are afraid that some Portuguese / Iberians may actually be genetically Celtic? Does that thought destroy your perverse notion of what "Celticity" should be. Maybe there are Celtic genetic markers left, maybe not. I don't know and neither do you.

    ENOUGH!
    Last edited by Cambrius (The Red); 10-07-09 at 07:06.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    What are you trying to achieve with such arguments ?
    It is pretty clear what his agenda is...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    L21 is not "heavily found among the Basques".

    Where did you get the idea that it is?
    I may have unconsciously translate "found heavily" in french hence the error.

    I think everybody can see that my english is not very good, i never use or need it in my every day life...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smertrius View Post
    I may have unconsciously translate "found heavily" in french hence the error.
    I think everybody can see that my english is not very good, i never use or need it in my every day life...

    You are forgiven...

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Yes, what you wrote was highly inaccurate. You wrote that Celtic migrations were a joke and that Celtic culture spread throughout Western Europe without the aid of the actual Celts themselves going anywhere (or words to that effect).

    I disagree, and I think the evidence indicates otherwise.
    So what every specialist in celtic history think is highly innacurate ?
    You won't find any serious historian or university researcher who will say today that there was massive migrations from hallstatt and La Tène peoples in the british isles or Iberia. They will laugh at you. Some even think that ethnic celts never existed and that "celtic" has just a cultural and geographical meaning.

    Your thought about celtic peoples belong to the past, along with Henri Hubert, Camille Jullian, and the good old Albert Grenier. That's outdated.
    Last edited by Smertrius; 09-07-09 at 18:39.

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    This is a complex subject that should be pursued in a forum devoted to things "Celtic".

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    So Im not over weight Im just big boned, thank God for that now where did I put those pies.

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    How strong are current scientific research efforts to determine if a "Celtic gene" does in fact exist?

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