The Celts of Iberia

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spongetaro said:
I only mentioned languages that were spoken by mostly S116 people and as you pointed out, none of those language are celtic
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Language and genetics are not related. For example, Iranians speak an indo-european langauge, yet all europeans are genetically closer to Basques
 
spongetaro said:
The problem with you Cambria red is that you don't want to admit that neither Lusitanian nor S116 was Celtic.
To what extent could we consider Iberian, Basque, Latin, Aquitanian and Rhaetian Celtic languages ?
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I'm not Cambria Red. Or did you mean to redirect this challenge to him? Anyway, S116 clearly includes Celtic people, as you mention later yourself. S116* in particular is old and spreads to multiple populations. It is observed in France, England, Ireland, Switzerland... So, it isn't Celtic, per se, but rather is Celtic, along with some other things. There is no reason not to assume that much of the S116* in Iberia came over with Celts, maybe mostly in a first-wave Q-Celtic migration of some sort.
 
Wilhelm said:
in a study the shortest distance in Europe was between french spaniards. .
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France is not fully Celt as I said earlier, the Celtic core of Europe may have ended in Eastern France. All the haplogroup that we have in common with Iberian (S116*, M53, M167, EM81) that prevails in South West France makes France even less Celt
 
spongetaro said:
SO ? A wise solution would be not to prove anything
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The smart thing would be to accept the truth, there is no way the truth and she will fight to the end.
 
Wilhelm said:
Language and genetics are not related. For example, Iranians speak an indo-european langauge, yet all europeans are genetically closer to Basques
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I couldn't count how many times you said that Iberian were genetically Celts
 
Wilhelm said:
Wait, wait, wait here. First of all : There is something called genetic distances (Fst) which clearly show that Iberians and French are very related, in fact in a study the shortest distance in Europe was between french spaniards. Second : The British people are not celts, far from it, they have a lot of germanic and nordic influence, you can see this in all the autosomal and admixture analyisis (their north-european levels) and their clustering towards north-europeans.
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Sorry Wilhelm, I still think you're wrong here regarding the Brits. There are areas of Britain with little Germanic influence, and the maximum it reaches are somewhere around 70% (patriline only) in the East. The remaining Celtic influence in much of Britain is apparent. I think it's more likely that the autosomal differences between Iberians and British people comes more from the fact that their (paleolithically European) non-patrilines have had a long time to diverge.
 
Wilhelm said:
Language and genetics are not related. For example, Iranians speak an indo-european langauge, yet all europeans are genetically closer to Basques
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So what makes us European is mainly of Palolithic and Neolithic age ?
Not really Celt don't you find
 
Wilhelm said:
The British people are not celts, far from it, they have a lot of germanic and nordic influence, you can see this in all the autosomal and admixture analyisis (their north-european levels) and their clustering towards north-europeans.
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You like to believe that before the Anglo Saxon and Vikings invasion, Spaniards and Scots did look the same but according to Roman authors, a great deal of Caledonians were already red haired.
BTW, R1b L21 is almost non existent in Iberia like U152
 
spongetaro said:
France is not fully Celt as I said earlier, the Celtic core of Europe may have ended in Eastern France. All the haplogroup that we have in common with Iberian (S116*, M53, M167, EM81) that prevails in South West France makes France even less Celt
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That's not the haplogroups you have in common with Iberia. And btw in the Myres et al. study the Eastern French have 24% of S116*.
 
spongetaro said:
So what makes us European is mainly of Palolithic and Neolithic age ?
Not really Celt don't you find
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You'll find that the Basques have a similar genetic pattern of recent patrilines and more ancient matrilines that is common among Western Europeans, they're just an extreme case of both.

Either way, culture undoubtedly spreads with migrations, and genetics offers clues into the historical spread of people and culture. Genetics, however, do not determine language or culture, it just correlates. What we're talking about here is historical culture and language, and the genetic evidence for it. We've been over this time and time again...
 
Wilhelm said:
Wait, wait, wait here. First of all : There is something called genetic distances (Fst) which clearly show that Iberians and French are very related, in fact in a study the shortest distance in Europe was between french spaniards.
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Indeed, France and Spaniards are very close genetically. Have you noticed that most of the Time Spain cluster with France and Portugal and sometimes Italy while France cluster with Spain, Switzerland, Southern Germany and sometimes the British Island.
In fact, in all genetic aspect (haplogroup, autosomal) Spain and Portugal are not particuraly close to British and Central European

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sparkey said:
Sorry Wilhelm, I still think you're wrong here regarding the Brits. There are areas of Britain with little Germanic influence, and the maximum it reaches are somewhere around 70% (patriline only) in the East. The remaining Celtic influence in much of Britain is apparent. I think it's more likely that the autosomal differences between Iberians and British people comes more from the fact that their (paleolithically European) non-patrilines have had a long time to diverge.
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See the Eurogenes and Dodecad Projects. The British/Irish have a ton of northern-european admixture, and they are from all parts of the country.

spongetaro said:
You like to believe that before the Anglo Saxon and Vikings invasion, Spaniards and Scots did look the same but according to Roman authors, a great deal of Caledonians were already red haired.
BTW, R1b L21 is almost non existent in Iberia like U152
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What ? I never said such thing. It is you who said brits are celts, and then you say the celts ended in eastern-France, you don't make any sense. Btw is not true that L21 is alsmo non-existant in Iberia, see this thread : http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25860
Anyways you are now changing : You said first U152, now L21, what's next
 
Wilhelm said:
That's not the haplogroups you have in common with Iberia. And btw in the Myres et al. study the Eastern French have 24% of S116*.
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Another evidence that S116* is older than the Celt. Just imagine a Celtic invasion from Eastern France that bring to most of Spaniard S116* without carrying any U152 or L21
 
spongetaro said:
Indeed, France and Spaniards are very close genetically. Have you noticed that most of the Time Spain cluster with France and Portugal and sometimes Italy while France cluster with Spain, Switzerland, Southern Germany and sometimes the British Island.
In fact, in all genetic aspect (haplogroup, autosomal) Spain and Portugal are not particuraly close to British and Central European
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I never said we cluster with British or Central Europeans. I said we cluster with French.
 
Wilhelm said:
See the Eurogenes and Dodecad Projects. The British/Irish have a ton of northern-european admixture, and they are from all parts of the country.
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...indicating a degree of continuity of pre-Germanic peoples in North Europe. I know that they share autosomal DNA, it didn't have to come from Germanic peoples. Which of those pre-Germanic Northern European populations became Celts and have significant Y-DNA that correlates with the spread of the Celts? The Brits (especially Irish, Welsh, Cornish).
 
Wilhelm said:
See the Eurogenes and Dodecad Projects. The British/Irish have a ton of northern-european admixture, and they are from all parts of the country.


What ? I never said such thing. It is you who said brits are celts, and then you say the celts ended in eastern-France, you don't make any sense. Btw is not true that L21 is alsmo non-existant in Iberia, see this thread : http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25860
Anyways you are now changing : You said first U152, now L21, what's next
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British people were not genetically close to Central European people so indeed not Celt genetically (like western French) but were fully Celtic speaking and BTW the island of Great Britain spoke a P celtic language which shows a Clear Central European influence that Spain doesn't have
 
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