The Celts of Iberia

[Cambrius (The Red)]

How does nearly 11pc of SSA African mtDNA in South Portugal, 6pc plus in the centre and 3 pc plus in North Portugal average out as 3pc (still higher than in other nations as a whole)?

What is your purpose in all this? What is your problem? Read ALL the studies. Read the qualifiers. Read the criticisms. When you average it all out the levels are trivial and reflect ONLY "SS" mt-DNA, not "SS" Y-DNA which is effectively 0% (ZERO).

This is a foolish conversation...

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Be a man and admit that ALL of Portugal has more SS African mtDNA than the rest of Europe and that "Celtic" has only a cultural not a genetic meaning in Iberia.
BTW the Portuguese language is descended from the language of Roman conquerors and is not Celtic.

You are an ignorant fool and have come here just to create trouble. I really don't care what you think.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Be a man and admit that ALL of Portugal has more SS African mtDNA than the rest of Europe and that "Celtic" has only a cultural not a genetic meaning in Iberia.
BTW the Portuguese language is descended from the language of Roman conquerors and is not Celtic.

Of course it has a genetic meaning, certainly in the North West and North East of Portugal and Galicia it does. Northern Portugal was part of ancient Gallaecia. Same people.

Look, I have nothing further to say. You obviously have some sort of sick agenda.

 

[Vallicanus]

Genetically, the Portuguese are just Celticised people of South-west Europe, mostly dark of hair, eye and skin, with more SS African admixture than other European nations.

 

[Smertrius]

Of course it has a genetic meaning, certainly in the North West and North East of Portugal and Galicia it does. Northern Portugal was part of ancient Gallaecia. Same people.

NO ! It has no genetic meaning at all ! Even the name Callaeci is dubious.

The Nitiobriges around Agen, the Bituriges around Bordeaux had a very celtic name, but what's really celtic about them ? They are part of Gascony which is well known for being a celtised and romanised basque region.

Even the Arvernes, the most powerful celtic tribe of the antiquity who had the hegemony in Gaul and led the war against Cesar was hardly half celtic !

Do you think that i lost my regional pride when i learnt that Vercingetorix and his fellow arvernes were a mixed people with a probably dominant non celtic substratum ?

That's ok to says that Galicia was culturally celtised, but saying that they were genetically celtic is just ridiculous.

 

[Smertrius]

In addition, the "Gauls" in Italy were probably mainly Celticised Ligurians and Rhaetians.

Northern Italy is a real mess, the Ligurians (who spoke a celtic dialect), the Rhaetians, the Venetes (related to the Illyrians) and the Etruscs (Mediolanum/Milano was first Melpum, an etruscan settlement) made up most of the population. The celtisation of the padania was probably the fact of infiltrations from the Lepontes tribes (around what's now Tessin) who were early celtised and spoke a very archaic celtic language.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Genetically, the Portuguese are just Celticised people of South-west Europe, mostly dark of hair, eye and skin, with more SS African admixture than other European nations.

Now, you are just being plain silly, Velli... Are you so insecure with what you are that you try to provoke and insult people; attempting to paint THE OTHER something he / she / they are not, to assuage the poor image you may have of yourself? That is called a form of mental illness, budster. Time to stop the nonsense. You come off as some angry, frustrated little boy. Take a long look in the mirror.

OK, so "celtic" is essentially a cultural category, that's easy enough to understand given what we know historically. However, the fact remains that a good part of Western Iberia (particularly the north west) matches or correlates with the haplogroup (more importantly haplotype) dominant in other ACCULTURATED "celtic" regions of Europe's Atlantic Rim.

As far as SS African MT-DNA goes, all I have to say to you is: LIVERPOOL, BRISTOL, CARDIFF... And, there is NO argument where "SS" DNA (BOTH Y and mt) originated from in those areas.

Time to move on to productive things...

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

NO ! It has no genetic meaning at all ! Even the name Callaeci is dubious.
The Nitiobriges around Agen, the Bituriges around Bordeaux had a very celtic name, but what's really celtic about them ? They are part of Gascony which is well known for being a celtised and romanised basque region.
Even the Arvernes, the most powerful celtic tribe of the antiquity who had the hegemony in Gaul and led the war against Cesar was hardly half celtic !
Do you think that i lost my regional pride when i learnt that Vercingetorix and his fellow arvernes were a mixed people with a probably dominant non celtic substratum ?
That's ok to says that Galicia was culturally celtised, but saying that they were genetically celtic is just ridiculous.

I have no problem with what you are saying. You are pretty much correct.

Look, I don't believe that a "Celtic gene" exists (anywhere). All I have been saying is that a good part of Western Iberia matches or correlates in haplogroup (and more importantly, haplotype - Atlantic Modal Haplotype) with other "celticized" Atlantic peoples.

I ask you, why have I been able to trace genetically to people of one family with the surname O'Toole and another named Claren, both from Southern Ireland. Why have I found a connection to Davies in Wales? My family on both sides has always been from Minho, Portugal and Galicia, so why a direct genetic connection to Ireland and Wales?

 

[rms2]

The celtic migrations are a big joke, the celtic culture spread through Europe, but "ethnic" celts remained where history has always encounter them : south Germany and north east France basically.

The pseudo-celt that reached NW Iberia were more than probably already celtised Aquitanian tribes. That 's it.

Same for Ireland, celtised pre-celtic britons brought the celtic culture and language there.

Stop your fantasies please...

Inaccurate, at least when it comes to y-dna. L21 is found at overwhelming frequencies in the British Isles and is significant in SE France and SW Germany.

And testing for L21 just began at the end of October of 2008! It wasn't added to FTDNA's Deep Clade-R test until January of this year, so the collection of data has really only just begun.

U152 is another R1b1b2 subclade found in both the old homelands of the Celts and in Britain.

It does begin to appear that the Celts actually migrated from West Central Europe to the British Isles and Iberia.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I have the L21 marker. I discovered such earlier this year. It's found heavily among the Basques and some other Atlantic Rim peoples.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Very interesting. Have to investigate U152.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Inaccurate, at least when it comes to y-dna. L21 is found at overwhelming frequencies in the British Isles and is significant in SE France and SW Germany.

And testing for L21 just began at the end of October of 2008! It wasn't added to FTDNA's Deep Clade-R test until January of this year, so the collection of data has really only just begun.

U152 is another R1b1b2 subclade found in both the old homelands of the Celts and in Britain.

It does begin to appear that the Celts actually migrated from West Central Europe to the British Isles and Iberia.

Thank you for contributing this information.

 

[Vallicanus]

Now, you are just being plain silly, Velli... Are you so insecure with what you are that you try to provoke and insult people; attempting to paint THE OTHER something he / she / they are not, to assuage the poor image you may have of yourself? That is called a form of mental illness, budster. Time to stop the nonsense. You come off as some angry, frustrated little boy. Take a long look in the mirror.

OK, so "celtic" is essentially a cultural category, that's easy enough to understand given what we know historically. However, the fact remains that a good part of Western Iberia (particularly the north west) matches or correlates with the haplogroup (more importantly haplotype) dominant in other ACCULTURATED "celtic" regions of Europe's Atlantic Rim.

As far as SS African MT-DNA goes, all I have to say to you is: LIVERPOOL, BRISTOL, CARDIFF... And, there is NO argument where "SS" DNA (BOTH Y and mt) originated from in those areas.

Time to move on to productive things...

What part of the facts do you have trouble understanding?

Portuguese are mainly dark of hair (true)
Portuguese are mainly dark of eye (true)
Portuguese are mainly dark of complexion (true)
Portuguese have more SS African mtDNA than other Europeans, even in North Portugal (true)

England as a whole has about 0.6 pc SS African mtDNA while South Portugal has 10 pc plus, Central Portugal 6 pc plus and North Portugal 3 pc plus.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

What part of the facts do you have trouble understanding?

Portuguese are mainly dark of hair (true)
Portuguese are mainly dark of eye (true)
Portuguese are mainly dark of complexion (true)
Portuguese have more SS African mtDNA than other Europeans, even in North Portugal (true)

England as a whole has about 0.6 pc SS African mtDNA while South Portugal has 10 pc plus, Central Portugal 6 pc plus and North Portugal 3 pc plus.

The reality of things is HARDLY as simple as you try to make it. You are no longer worth responding to. Do you have a pathological fixation with certain things?... :wary2:

 

[Smertrius]

Inaccurate, at least when it comes to y-dna. L21 is found at overwhelming frequencies in the British Isles and is significant in SE France and SW Germany.

And testing for L21 just began at the end of October of 2008! It wasn't added to FTDNA's Deep Clade-R test until January of this year, so the collection of data has really only just begun.

U152 is another R1b1b2 subclade found in both the old homelands of the Celts and in Britain.

It does begin to appear that the Celts actually migrated from West Central Europe to the British Isles and Iberia.

Inaccurate ?

I looked at the R-L21 map you posted in the R-L21 thread. What i saw is that this haplogroup is wide spread in Europe, from Norway and finland to Spain and Romania with a peak in Germany. All we can say is that first it's an european haplogroup found in every countries, and two that maybe germans do more Y-DNA test than other continental european countries.
The R-L21 is 4000 years old, at that time the celts as we know them didn't even existed. The first celtic culture, hallstatt, started in 1200 BC and reached central Iberia from SW France around 600 BC and then spread to West Iberia through the Douro and Tage valley. Do you think that Spain and south west France are celtic ?

It seems that R-L21 is the main subclade of R1b in the British isles, can you say so for Southern Germany and SE France ?
How many R-L21 in Galicia : 0
Just because you decided to call R-L21 celtic don't mean that it's celtic...

U152 is labelled Gallo-Italo-Alpine, what does that really mean ?? Celtic, Italic, Rhaetic, Ligurian ? Makes no sens to me.

 

[Smertrius]

I have the L21 marker. I discovered such earlier this year. It's found heavily among the Basques and some other Atlantic Rim peoples.

So R-L21, a celtic hg, is also heavily found among the Basques...

Sorry, i find all these DNA stuff interesting, and Maciamo did a great job with all his maps about that subject, but i will never rely on the sole Y-DNA to define ethnicities.

 

[Vallicanus]

The reality of things is HARDLY as simple as you try to make it. You are no longer worth responding to. Do you have a pathological fixation with certain things?... :wary2:

Reality is simple.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

What part of the facts do you have trouble understanding?

Portuguese are mainly dark of hair (true)
Portuguese are mainly dark of eye (true)
Portuguese are mainly dark of complexion (true)
Portuguese have more SS African mtDNA than other Europeans, even in North Portugal (true)

England as a whole has about 0.6 pc SS African mtDNA while South Portugal has 10 pc plus, Central Portugal 6 pc plus and North Portugal 3 pc plus.

Let's see now...

My hair is a medium reddish-brown.

My eyes are grey-blue.

My complexion is fair-to-medium.

My Y-DNA haplogroup is R1b (Atlantic Modal Haplotype).

My mt-DNA haplogroup is H1 (Germanic and Basque makers).

Oh well, I guess by your standards I couldn't possibly be of Portuguese / Galician / Iberian descent... etrified:

Would you like a physical description of some of my neighbors? Let's see there is Mrs. A, dark blond, blue eyes and pale skin... Wait, better yet, come and visit the region and do a bit of ethnography. I'm certain the fresh air will do you some good.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

It may well be impossible to prove definitively that any R1b or R1a marker equals celtic ethnicity. At best, one can say that he / she MAY have a distant celtic genetic connection by virtue of haplogroup marker matchings with culturally celtic peoples.

 

[rms2]

So R-L21, a celtic hg, is also heavily found among the Basques...

Sorry, i find all these DNA stuff interesting, and Maciamo did a great job with all his maps about that subject, but i will never rely on the sole Y-DNA to define ethnicities.

L21 is not "heavily found among the Basques".

Where did you get the idea that it is?