The Celts of Iberia

[Cambrius (The Red)]

What a metamorphis.

Earlier you wrote that the original Celts were Alpine.

Now you go on about Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

So the Celts have changed from being brachycephalic broad-faced Alpines into dolichocephalic, narrow-faced Atlanto-Mediterraneans?

Remarkable!

BTW the Portuguese are more small-statured Gracile Mediterraneans than tall Atlanto-Mediterraneans.

You are Celtic or Celtiberian culturally but physically the term "Celt" is highly controversial.

"Celts" probably varied regionally in a physical sense and were more a linguistic/cultural entity.

The Romans described the Silures of South Wales as being swarthy and curly-haired like Iberians while the Caledonians were described as big and red-headed.

BTW, what gives you the notion that Iberians are all that swarthy and curly-haired? A small number are such (possibly in similar numbers to what you find among the Welsh), but "swarthy and curly-haired" is hardly a general phenotype in Spain or Portugal.

Portuguese are more Glacial-Mediterranean in the southern regions, mainly Alentejo and the Algarve (which, BTW, amount to 8% of the country's population). The capital area of Lisbon has all different native types, from Mediterranean to Atlanto-Mediterranean to Alpine to Nordic. The central part is primarily Atlanto-Mediterranean, some Alpine and a little Germanic / Nordic and the north, essentially Atlanto-Mediterranean with a bit of Alpine along with some Germanic / Nordic strains.

 

[Vallicanus]

BTW, what gives you the notion that Iberians are all that swarthy and curly-haired? A small number are such (possibly in similar numbers to what you find among the Welsh), but "swarthy and curly-haired" is hardly a general phenotype in Spain or Portugal.

Portuguese are more Glacial-Mediterranean in the southern regions, mainly Alentejo and the Algarve (which, BTW, amount to 8% of the country's population). The capital area of Lisbon has all different native types, from Mediterranean to Atlanto-Mediterranean to Alpine to Nordic. The central part is primarily Atlanto-Mediterranean, some Alpine and a little Germanic / Nordic and the north, essentially Atlanto-Mediterranean with a bit of Alpine along with some Germanic / Nordic strains.

The description of Silures being as dark as Iberians is Tacitus' not mine.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The description of Silures being as dark as Iberians is Tacitus' not mine.

That ancient statement hardly reflects today's reality in Iberia. In Europe, "swarthy and curly-haired" may generally only apply to a percentage of people in the southeastern Mediterranean; parts of southern Greece, Malta, Cyprus...

 

[Vallicanus]

In 2007 a survey by Achilli et alia was published concerning the extent of mitrochondrial DNA of Subsaharan African origin. Mitrochondrial DNA is passed from the mother to all her children but only daughters pass it on to their daughters.

The highest figures in Europe were found for Portugal and Spanish Galicia:

South Portugal...10.84 per cent
Central Portugal...6.4 pc
Galicia (Spain)...3.7 pc
North Portugal...3.19 pc

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

In 2007 a survey by Achilli et alia was published concerning the extent of mitrochondrial DNA of Subsaharan African origin. Mitrochondrial DNA is passed from the mother to all her children but only daughters pass it on to their daughters.
The highest figures in Europe were found for Portugal and Spanish Galicia:
South Portugal...10.84 per cent
Central Portugal...6.4 pc
Galicia (Spain)...3.7 pc
North Portugal...3.19 pc

Why in the world are you posting this? What relevance does this have here? Are you trying to be provocative?

Do you know (I'm sure you do) that Sub-Saharan DNA is found in ALL European countries (yes even in Scandinavia) and that scientists are not even clear if the origins are in fact Sub-Saharan. The subclades found in Iberia and much of Europe are so old most of them may have originated in Asia and they pre-date by eons the Atlantic Slave Trade. Also "Sub-Saharan" Y-DNA in Iberia is essentially 0%. Accounting for variances in population levels, the average "Sub-Saharan" mt-DNA totals in Portugal and Spain are roughly 3%, on the same level as France.

Do you know a damn about the history of Southern Portugal (Alentejo and the Algarve)? Are you aware that the regions make up only 8% of the country's population? Do you know that the mt-DNA samplings collected for most of the studies conducted in South Portugal are NON-REPRESENTATIVE, because they included small, isolated communities who's individuals had been historically ostracized from greater society due to disease and slavery? Look up the history of Sado and Alcacer do Sal and educate yourself.

BTW, want to make a bet on the levels of Sub-Saharan DNA existing in Britain's Slave Trade cities, like Liverpool, Bristol and Cardiff? Want to guess how many mixed bloods in Liverpool can trace their ancestry back to 17th-18th England? Come off it, man... Grow up!

 

[Vallicanus]

Why in the world are you posting this? What relevance does this have here? Are you trying to be provocative?

Do you know (I'm sure you do) that Sub-Saharan DNA is found in ALL European countries (yes even in Scandinavia) and that scientists are not even clear if the origins are in fact Sub-Saharan. The subclades found in Iberia and much of Europe are so old most of it may have originated in Asia and they pre-date by eons the Atlantic Slave Trade. Also "Sub-Saharan" Y-DNA in Iberia is essentially 0%. Accounting for variances in population levels, the average "Sub-Saharan" mt-DNA totals in Portugal and Spain are roughly 3%, on the same level as France.

Do you know a damn about the history of Southern Portugal (Alentejo and the Algarve)? Are you aware that the regions make up only 8% of the country's population? Do you know that the mt-DNA samplings collected for most of the studies conducted in South Portugal are NON-REPRESENTATIVE, because they included small, isolated communities who's individuals had been historically ostracized from greater society due to disease and slavery? Look up the history of Sado and Alcacer do Sal and educate yourself.

BTW, want to make a bet on the levels of Sub-Saharan DNA existing in Britain's Slave Trade cities, like Liverpool, Bristol and Cardiff? Want to guess how many mixed bloods in Liverpool can trace their ancestry back to 17th-18th England? Come off it, man... Grow up!

The relevance is that you seem to think that all Iberians are somehow "Celtic" and very European.

Yes, such SS African mtDNA is found in many parts of Europe but some areas showed up with zero frequency in this report while (all of) Portugal (with Galicia) had the highest figures recorded in Europe. The figure even for North Portugal (3 pc plus) is higher than in other countries. Are you saying they surveyed social outcasts here too. If so, why here and not elsewhere in Europe?
Accept your roots and don't be racist.

This may be a SS African trait or not (it probably is) but it certainly is of extra-European origin.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The relevance is that you seem to think that all Iberians are somehow "Celtic" and very European.
Yes, such SS African mtDNA is found in many parts of Europe but some areas showed up with zero frequency in this report while (all of) Portugal (with Galicia) had the highest figures recorded in Europe. The figure even for North Portugal (3 pc plus) is higher than in other countries. Are you saying they surveyed social outcasts here too. If so, why here and not elsewhere in Europe?
Accept your roots and don't be racist.
This may be a SS African trait or not (it probably is) but it certainly is of extra-European origin.

I know my roots only too well and have no issues with them at all. You are the one making stupid suggestions here, no one else. "Don't be racist"... What a laugh... Coming from you that must be some sort of joke, no?

The substratum and heritage of Western Iberia is Celtic. Finito. If you don't agree with that, that is your problem.

BTW, never got a response on Britain's Slave Trade towns...

 

[Vallicanus]

I know my roots only too well and have no issues with them at all. You are the one making stupid suggestions here, no one else. "Don't be racist"... What a laugh... Coming from you that must be some sort of joke, no?

The substratum and heritage of Western Iberia is Celtic. Finito. If you don't agree with that, that is your problem.

BTW, never got a response on Britain's Slave Trade towns...

Portugal goes way beyond Liverpool etc in its African element and we are dealing with a scientific report (Achilli et alia) and not merely my suggestions.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Portugal goes way beyond Liverpool etc in its African element and we are dealing with a scientific report (Achilli et alia) and not merely my suggestions.

And what are your suggestions? BTW, do you have any figures for Liverpool, etc.?

You are trying to tell me I am something I'm not. That is insulting. What if I suggested that you are an Eskimo, and you are anything but that? What would you think? Again, I know EXACTLY what I am. I've done deep DNA testing and know my family origins are essentially Atlantic Celtic (matching the Southern Irish and Welsh) and Swabian.

Look up the various mt-DNA studies for Portugal. There are several. Yes the figures look higher, but when you account for methodology problems and regional population size you average out to about 3%.

This conversation is at a dead end. Think whatever you like...

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The relevance is that you seem to think that all Iberians are somehow "Celtic" and very European.
Yes, such SS African mtDNA is found in many parts of Europe but some areas showed up with zero frequency in this report while (all of) Portugal (with Galicia) had the highest figures recorded in Europe. The figure even for North Portugal (3 pc plus) is higher than in other countries. Are you saying they surveyed social outcasts here too. If so, why here and not elsewhere in Europe?
Accept your roots and don't be racist.
This may be a SS African trait or not (it probably is) but it certainly is of extra-European origin.

There is plenty of extra-European origin DNA throughout Europe. Look at Greece and much of Italy, Romania, etc. Lot's of Arab there. More than Spain and Portugal. Does that mean that only a tiny fraction of Europeans are REALLY European? ABSURD!

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The relevance is that you seem to think that all Iberians are somehow "Celtic" and very European.
Yes, such SS African mtDNA is found in many parts of Europe but some areas showed up with zero frequency in this report while (all of) Portugal (with Galicia) had the highest figures recorded in Europe. The figure even for North Portugal (3 pc plus) is higher than in other countries. Are you saying they surveyed social outcasts here too. If so, why here and not elsewhere in Europe?
Accept your roots and don't be racist.
This may be a SS African trait or not (it probably is) but it certainly is of extra-European origin.

Did I say all Iberians were Celtic? No, I said that Western Iberia (WI) is essentially Celtic in substratum. A considerable part of WI is (still) culturally Celtic as well.

BTW, any trivial SS mt-DNA, or other "extra-origin" levels, in any population has no real affect on its genetic pool. If it did, we would ALL look a lot different.

 

[Barros Serrano]

Celts and other confusions

This argument results due to confusion about whether we're discussing genetic ancestry, language & culture, nationality, etc.

"Celts"... is a linguistic term really. The original Celts, since it is an Indoeuropean language, were Indoeuropeans with R2 Y-chromosomes. By the time they got to southern Germany, Iberia, Britain, northern Italy or wherever, they were thoroughly mixed with other peoples, notably the indigenous (Cro-Magnoid) types. It is pointless to argue what a Celt looked like, as there are multiple answers, all correct in some place and time.

Even these categories of phenotypes (Brunn, etc.) are problematic, as they obscure the genetic reality. In fact, there are various types which contribute to the European population and in every country, nay in every region and even town, the mixture varies. We can only be certain about statistical probabilities... in Italy you will LIKELY have more of one of the Neolithic types than in Norway. In Russia you will likely have more Indoeuropean genes than in Ireland.

Outside of Europe, it is the same. Look at the various genotype maps on this site. Even in West Africa there is a healthy dose of Y-chromosome R types... so African-Americans were often already mixed with "whites" even before being brought to America! And so on...

We're all human. "Race" is impossible to classify or categorize with any certainty or precision, due to mixing and the complex array of splitting of human groups. What is important really is ETHNICITY, and that is entirely cultural... meaning it is not somatic... it's in the mind.

 

[Vallicanus]

And what are your suggestions? BTW, do you have any figures for Liverpool, etc.?

You are trying to tell me I am something I'm not. That is insulting. What if I suggested that you are an Eskimo, and you are anything but that? What would you think? Again, I know EXACTLY what I am. I've done deep DNA testing and know my family origins are essentially Atlantic Celtic (matching the Southern Irish and Welsh) and Swabian.

Look up the various mt-DNA studies for Portugal. There are several. Yes the figures look higher, but when you account for methodology problems and regional population size you average out to about 3%.

This conversation is at a dead end. Think whatever you like...

How does nearly 11pc of SSA African mtDNA in South Portugal, 6pc plus in the centre and 3 pc plus in North Portugal average out as 3pc (still higher than in other nations as a whole)?

 

[Vallicanus]

There is plenty of extra-European origin DNA throughout Europe. Look at Greece and much of Italy, Romania, etc. Lot's of Arab there. More than Spain and Portugal. Does that mean that only a tiny fraction of Europeans are REALLY European? ABSURD!

The various parts of Greece have little or no SS African mtDNA. Some parts of Italy do while other parts of Italy have a zero presence in this report.

Berber (NW African) Y chromosomes reach 18.6 pc in Cantabria, the European maximum recorded so far, and can nearby Portugal be much less?

Arabs and Berbers are mostly Caucasoid not SS Africans, of course.

 

[Vallicanus]

This argument results due to confusion about whether we're discussing genetic ancestry, language & culture, nationality, etc.

"Celts"... is a linguistic term really. The original Celts, since it is an Indoeuropean language, were Indoeuropeans with R2 Y-chromosomes. By the time they got to southern Germany, Iberia, Britain, northern Italy or wherever, they were thoroughly mixed with other peoples, notably the indigenous (Cro-Magnoid) types. It is pointless to argue what a Celt looked like, as there are multiple answers, all correct in some place and time.

Even these categories of phenotypes (Brunn, etc.) are problematic, as they obscure the genetic reality. In fact, there are various types which contribute to the European population and in every country, nay in every region and even town, the mixture varies. We can only be certain about statistical probabilities... in Italy you will LIKELY have more of one of the Neolithic types than in Norway. In Russia you will likely have more Indoeuropean genes than in Ireland.

Outside of Europe, it is the same. Look at the various genotype maps on this site. Even in West Africa there is a healthy dose of Y-chromosome R types... so African-Americans were often already mixed with "whites" even before being brought to America! And so on...

We're all human. "Race" is impossible to classify or categorize with any certainty or precision, due to mixing and the complex array of splitting of human groups. What is important really is ETHNICITY, and that is entirely cultural... meaning it is not somatic... it's in the mind.

I could not agree more.

 

[Smertrius]

The celtic migrations are a big joke, the celtic culture spread through Europe, but "ethnic" celts remained where history has always encounter them : south Germany and north east France basically.

The pseudo-celt that reached NW Iberia were more than probably already celtised Aquitanian tribes. That 's it.

Same for Ireland, celtised pre-celtic britons brought the celtic culture and language there.

Stop your fantasies please...

 

[Vallicanus]

The celtic migrations are a big joke, the celtic culture spread through Europe, but "ethnic" celts remained where history has always encounter them : south Germany and north east France basically.

The pseudo-celt that reached NW Iberia were more than probably already celtised Aquitanian tribes. That 's it.

Same for Ireland, celtised pre-celtic britons brought the celtic culture and language there.

Stop your fantasies please...

Fantasies indeed.

In addition, the "Gauls" in Italy were probably mainly Celticised Ligurians and Rhaetians.

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

How does nearly 11pc of SSA African mtDNA in South Portugal, 6pc plus in the centre and 3 pc plus in North Portugal average out as 3pc (still higher than in other nations as a whole)?

The North is the most populated region after Lisbon and surrounding towns. The center is somewhere in between and the south has only 8% of the country's total population (guess you glossed over that in my previous post). The levels are trivial and ONLY for mt-DNA. SS Y-DNA is essentially 0%, Again, no one is sure where the majority of "SS" mt-DNA originated. The SS type found in Iberia may well be very old and possibly Eurasian in origin.

Why do we continue to discuss this nonsense?

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

The various parts of Greece have little or no SS African mtDNA. Some parts of Italy do while other parts of Italy have a zero presence in this report.
Berber (NW African) Y chromosomes reach 18.6 pc in Cantabria, the European maximum recorded so far, and can nearby Portugal be much less?
Arabs and Berbers are mostly Caucasoid not SS Africans, of course.

I said NEAR EAST, Arabic. Do you consider ALL Arabs white?

 

[Vallicanus]

The North is the most populated region after Lisbon and surrounding towns. The center is somewhere in between and the south has only 8% of the country's total population (guess you glossed over that in my previous post The levels are trivial only for mt-DNA. SS Y-DNA is essentially 0%, Again, no one is sure where the majority of "SS" mt-DNA originated.

Why do we continue to discuss this nonsense?

Be a man and admit that ALL of Portugal has more SS African mtDNA than the rest of Europe and that "Celtic" has only a cultural not a genetic meaning in Iberia.
BTW the Portuguese language is descended from the language of Roman conquerors and is not Celtic.