J1 and J2

[Alan]

J1c3d which is (147.1) it's the semitic HG.. There is nobody with a single J1, all of J1 you've saw without definition are still not find a unique mutations that could classify them, so they stay on J1 until some new mutations showed up ... (without definition mean J1 without branch, and could be needs to test the deep clade to find a mutation...)

The J1 is a top father of J1b1, J1c2, J1c3, etc.. So Abraham is J1c3d!! How?

J1c3d found among all the known families (descended of Abraham's sons).. especially the some important families sucha Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), his family is well known between Arabs and well known, which is descended from Ismail Bin Ibrahim (BPUT)...

Add to that the results of Cohen, and everybody knows that they're descended from the Prophet Aaron (PBUH).. And Aron descended from the Prophet Abraham (PBUH) and no doubt... So I think after all of these well known families, no 1 can deny it...

Even before the advent of DNA,, it is known that Arab tribes and Jewish tribes have their names documented since along, and traditionally they take care of that very well.. as well as they have a families trees which most of them are belong to a very old time. ..

Anyway there may be some little differences but doesn't affect at all.

Note: PBUH = Peace Be Upon Him.. & if the last letter is T= Peace Be Upon Them

Good Night..

it seems you are somehow a little confused, None of those Haplogroups are "semitic" in origin. When these Haplogroups evolved there was no today known ethnicity. Haplogroup J1c3d is the strongest among semitic people but it doesnt make it specifically semitic. Only if a Haplogroup is signed with a * on it, Like you said J1 is the father of J1c3d but it developed somewhere between the zagros and Taurus mountains and is not semitic in origin. He could be anything from J1b (which most Kurdish J1 belong to) to J1c3 (which evolved in central Mesopotamia). J1c3d this specific mutation is rare among Kurds.

 

[Yetos]

J1c3d which is (147.1) it's the semitic HG.. There is nobody with a single J1, all of J1 you've saw without definition are still not find a unique mutations that could classify them, so they stay on J1 until some new mutations showed up ... (without definition mean J1 without branch, and could be needs to test the deep clade to find a mutation...)

The J1 is a top father of J1b1, J1c2, J1c3, etc.. So Abraham is J1c3d!! How?

J1c3d found among all the known families (descended of Abraham's sons).. especially the some important families sucha Prophet Mohammed (PBUH), his family is well known between Arabs and well known, which is descended from Ismail Bin Ibrahim (BPUT)...

Add to that the results of Cohen, and everybody knows that they're descended from the Prophet Aaron (PBUH).. And Aron descended from the Prophet Abraham (PBUH) and no doubt... So I think after all of these well known families, no 1 can deny it...

Even before the advent of DNA,, it is known that Arab tribes and Jewish tribes have their names documented since along, and traditionally they take care of that very well.. as well as they have a families trees which most of them are belong to a very old time. ..

Anyway there may be some little differences but doesn't affect at all.

Note: PBUH = Peace Be Upon Him.. & if the last letter is T= Peace Be Upon Them

Good Night..

What? the most funny I ever heard,
Abraham sons?

 

[Sniper]

it seems you are somehow a little confused, None of those Haplogroups are "semitic" in origin. When these Haplogroups evolved there was no today known ethnicity. Haplogroup J1c3d is the strongest among semitic people but it doesnt make it specifically semitic. Only if a Haplogroup is signed with a * on it, Like you said J1 is the father of J1c3d but it developed somewhere between the zagros and Taurus mountains and is not semitic in origin. He could be anything from J1b (which most Kurdish J1 belong to) to J1c3 (which evolved in central Mesopotamia). J1c3d this specific mutation is rare among Kurds.

Ok then,

Why the HG J1c3d is the strongest among semitic people?

Please answer this question Alan!

 

[Sniper]

What? the most funny I ever heard,
Abraham sons?

I'm really glad because I entertain you!!
[FONT=arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

 

[Alan]

Ok then,


Why the HG J1c3d is the strongest among semitic people?

Please answer this question Alan!

founder effect? endogamy? You can associate J1c3d with semitic people like I said but this doesnt make it semitic at all and even less J1 as a whole. I had the impression you were trying to convince us that J1 as a whole is semitic. This is as logical as saying R1b is Irish just because they got some 70-80% of it. Just a note the frequency of J1 is higher among Dargins as it is among any semitic people and J1 is much more diverse in the fertile crescent/East Anatolia as it is among any semitic speakers.

My friend, the thing what I am trying to tell you is that Haplogroups have no ethnicity but what is true, is that J1c3d is associated with semitic people what is alright. However you gave JJmuneer the impression as if it is most likely that the J1 found among this Kurd belongs to this specific branch which is rather unlikely because most J1 among Kurds is J1b and some J1c3 (2-3%). J1c3d is very rare among Kurds just for one reason you should actually know very well. People in West Asia are patriarchal and its always women who became part of the ethnicity of their husband. Means if there was ever a significant mixing between Kurds, Turks, Iranians or Arabs it would be mostly visible in their mt- and not yDNA.

 

[LeBrok]

Southern Europeans seriously need to stop having an inferiority complex. Ancient Romans, Greeks, Phoenicians, Egyptians, Persians, Lydians, and possibly also the people of the Indus valley civilization; were all olive-skinned, dark-haired, and dark-eyed.

Templar, you better make sure you quote post or posts in relation to your statement, otherwise it doesn't make sense in light of recent conversations. Without context it looks like you wanted to start another crusade to save "lost soles". Just make sure your writing and meaning is transparent.



To all:
This subject might be touchy for some people, let's keep cool heads, and treat all with respect, like your friends.

 

[Sniper]

founder effect? endogamy? You can associate J1c3d with semitic people like I said but this doesnt make it semitic at all and even less J1 as a whole.

Obviously you're speakin' about the semitic languages!! while I was talkin' about our semitic serial ancestors which has been maintained and carefully documented by our ancestors for a thousands of years.. Alan, I know you don't know much about some facts & some strict traditions, it's a serious matter never accept any kinda jokes.. You may tell me that you knew some Arabs but they were not the same, well yeah, there' alotta of them, without "typical tribal ancestors" as we call 'em.. In somehow it's an offensive word, you might to call that a racism. But we never mention it ethier as well as it is a forbidden religiously & morally.. Anyway, you can find many of them have the ancient tribe's name (because they lived among the ancient one since a long time),, so what should you do to identify the anchent one from the false (without askin')? Well, if you wanna identify them there is 1 thing, it is the "marriage"!! the ancient tribe wouldn't allow that whatever happened.. Even if they look as a brothers and the same but the marriage is impossible..

By the way, the J1c3d (z644...) do you know they belong to one of the most power full & important Arabian tribe which called (Al-Azd)?.. They'v found it in some hispanic!!
We know about them..Their ancestors were the leaders of the armies of old veterans in Andalusia. They're the foundations of civilization of Andalusia.. Some of them have been captured and imprisoned, and since then they never comeback. Funny when they come to ask in the some forums they're so intresting to go far as they could from the Arabian branches!! It's funny & so sad at the same time I swear... If they really know what kinda honor to belong to this tribe they won't even try to run away.. Every body wish to be an Azdi... (Azd = the Lions)..

They are undoubtedly the descendants of those heroes.. Just google it, (Al-Azd tribe), they're the kings of Sheba kingdom.. Many books talk about this great tribe...

I'd like to test the clade as soon.

Sorry for this long paragraph, but I just wanna make sure that you got it. I hope so!!

I had the impression you were trying to convince us that J1 as a whole is semitic. This is as logical as saying R1b is Irish just because they got some 70-80% of it. Just a note the frequency of J1 is higher among Dargins as it is among any semitic people and J1 is much more diverse in the fertile crescent/East Anatolia as it is among any semitic speakers.

Nah, not really .. If you won't believe that! then you don't have to anyway.. Maybe there are many branches,, and for sure Chem had many sons.. But we know our great grand father, his name is "Arphaxad". :wary2:

My friend, the thing what I am trying to tell you is that Haplogroups have no ethnicity but what is true, is that J1c3d is associated with semitic people what is alright. However you gave JJmuneer the impression as if it is most likely that the J1 found among this Kurd belongs to this specific branch which is rather unlikely because most J1 among Kurds is J1b and some J1c3 (2-3%). J1c3d is very rare among Kurds just for one reason you should actually know very well. People in West Asia are patriarchal and its always women who became part of the ethnicity of their husband. Means if there was ever a significant mixing between Kurds, Turks, Iranians or Arabs it would be mostly visible in their mt- and not yDNA.

Yeees HG have no ethnicity.. but as I told above.. there are many sons of Chem. 5 or 6 'm not sure... But any other J's result cant be branched from (Arphaxad), just J1c3d.. Because his descendants are the most known people on the face of earth, with all do of respect of all people.

But all of them are under the supposed mutation &
this can't be just a coincidence.. So how can we get another branch of people into Eber (PBUH) or Arphaxad's line?? You're talkin' about impossible thing Alan.. Otherwise we are takin' them away from their line? Or we are sayin' that their ancestors is not true? All of this ideas are wrong & can't be fit..

About mt- or Autosomal, family finder, it will show you some percentages, (e.g) you are American 56% and European 44% etc, but I think it isn't a unique as a parental HG + unique mutation.

Have a good day my friend...

 

[Templar]

Templar, you better make sure you quote post or posts in relation to your statement, otherwise it doesn't make sense in light of recent conversations. Without context it looks like you wanted to start another crusade to save "lost soles". Just make sure your writing and meaning is transparent.



To all:
This subject might be touchy for some people, let's keep cool heads, and treat all with respect, like your friends.

Its just annoying seeing Southern Europeans quote blonde hair and light eye rates. But maybe they are just trying to disprove ignorant stereotypes about them all looking dark.

 

[Knovas]

Well, it's also annoying to see you, Templar, excluding yourself from Southern Europeans, when it's essentially what you probably are, like it or not. The little data I've seen at 23andme indicates a much higher simillarity with Southern Europe regarding Bosnians. We already have available data belonging to sorrounding groups, and their West Asian + Med scores are really significant, so you should take care on your comments.

Most people are proud of their own origins. End of discussion.

 

[LeBrok]

Yeees HG have no ethnicity.. but as I told above.. there are many sons of Chem. 5 or 6 'm not sure... But any other J's result cant be branched from (Arphaxad), just J1c3d.. Because his descendants are the most known people on the face of earth, with all do of respect of all people.

But all of them are under the supposed mutation &
this can't be just a coincidence.. So how can we get another branch of people into Eber (PBUH) or Arphaxad's line?? You're talkin' about impossible thing Alan.. Otherwise we are takin' them away from their line? Or we are sayin' that their ancestors is not true? All of this ideas are wrong & can't be fit..

The world is much simpler and less confusing once you stop mixing religion into science.

 

[Templar]

Well, it's also annoying to see you, Templar, excluding yourself from Southern Europeans

The dark features of most Bosnians are mostly the result of Paleolithic Cro-Magnon traits, and not Near-Eastern farmers. This is attested by both haplogroup I prevalance (over 55%) and typical Bosnian physical features (such as prevalence of tallness). Also, Bosnians aren't constantly trying to prove links to Celts and other light-featured people, such as other Southern Europeans do (typically Spaniards). Light features are overrated.

 

[Knovas]

Haplogroup frequencies tell ZERO in terms of autosomal, so it is attested by nothing. I see you enjoy fooling yourself with strange ideas, if you want to think there's no Neolithic (not Near Eastern, or at least, fully Near Eastern) Farmers presence in the area, ok, go on. Oh, and don't forget the West Asian influence from Anatolia, surely very significant there and much recent than the Neolithic Farmers (let alone the Paleolithic inhabitants). Seriously, you must believe in miracles LOL.

PD: There's no data telling how light or dark were the Celts, only speculations.

 

[Templar]

PD: There's no data telling how light or dark were the Celts, only speculations.

There is much writing about them in Roman archives.

Haplogroup frequencies tell ZERO in terms of autosomal, so it is attested by nothing.

It is nonetheless a good way of estimating autosomal composition. Plus there is the obvious correlation between height and haplogroup composition (i.e. Germanic and Western Balkan countries both have alot of HP I and both are the tallest people in Europe).

if you want to think there's no Neolithic (not Near Eastern, or at least, fully Near Eastern) Farmers presence in the area

Never said that. It's just too miniscule to be important.

 

[Knovas]

You're just repeting like a parrot the same ideas without even visualised a single sample from Bosnia in terms of autosomal. I did, and they came back similar to Southern Europeans, what means thy are largely Med, West Asian, or a mix a both (I bet for the last one). Just for you to know, according to K7b, Hungarians (who are more Northern than Bosnians, but still close) show almost 15% in both West Asian and "Southern" (Modal in Neolithic Farmers) clusters. ¿And you're trying to say it's minuscule to be important among Bosnians?

It's time to wake up, noone having basic knowledge would bet for your option. Also, It's actually not clear that more Northern Euro = more Paleolithic. When you run global PCA including Basques and Sardinians, they appear at the top of the West Eurasian populations (and the rest deviate from them), so there's much more to investigate regarding that issue.

There you are:

"The most farming populations", appear more like a West Eurasian extreme pole than the others, and this is a global level (including Sub-Saharans, East Asians, etc.). Worth to mention that they lack the West Asian admixture, present in almost all Europeans. Yes...It's time to think about it.

Full image: http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3531/46003233.png

 

[Templar]

You're just repeting like a parrot the same ideas without even visualised a single sample from Bosnia in terms of autosomal.

It's time to wake up, noone having basic knowledge would bet for your option.

No need to be rude and offensive.

Also, It's actually not clear that more Northern Euro = more Paleolithic

I never said that it was. More paleolithic regions are the ones that were able to remain relatively isolated from both the Indo-Europeans and the neolithic migrants. Scandinavia seems pretty paleolithic, while the Baltic countries are far more Indo-European; even though they are both in Northern Europe.

 

[Templar]

Full image:http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/3531/46003233.png

The European populations are over-lapping too much. I can't discern which name is which. Do you have one that zooms in on only Europe?

 

[Knovas]

The Baltic countries are candidates according to the Eurogenes Project to have retained the most Paleolithic element, and it's probably partly right despite of their language, but there's also some East Eurasian element among them. Overall they are surely very close, however, Basques could also be even having less Atlantic-Baltic influence, since they don't show any significant West Asian, African or East Eurasian. It's not easy to define as I said in other posts, we need well sampled Hunter Gatherers to run PCA with them and see who is the closest one.

I think it's possible to obtain an experiment like this with a better zoom, I hope both Eurogenes and Dienekes' will do so. The one I showed maskes some populations who overlap, it's true, but it's pretty clear that at the top we find French_Basques and Sardinians. Orcadians are also close to the top comming from the right corner, and they curiously use to show substantial Med/South Euro scores, linked with the Neolithic Farmers. So, as I said, what these global experiments reflect, must be taken seriously, since it cannot be casual when lots of samples from distant ethnic groups are included. It shows IMO what populations truly are in comparison with others, although no admixture percents appear.

 

[Templar]

The Baltic countries are candidates according to the Eurogenes Project to have retained the most Paleolithic element

Maybe there were different groups of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. In the North-East they may have carried y-haplogroup N, while everywhere else it was I. That would explain why they retained alot of the Paleolithic element, despite speaking their language and having the physical appearance that they have.

 

[MOESAN]

Maybe there were different groups of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. In the North-East they may have carried y-haplogroup N, while everywhere else it was I. That would explain why they retained alot of the Paleolithic element, despite speaking their language and having the physical appearance that they have.

I don't disagree as a whole but, - what have physical appearance and language that can contredict a Paleolithic hunter-gatherers origin? we should need surveys about the physical appearance of ALL Palélolithic men and the possible physical evolution that men can undergone under time, crossings and diet changes (even if I believe diet and way of life changes very little in this appearance) - and even if it is not so easy, a population can changes language, so the language as a criteria?... - - I 'm sure we forget that the last hunter-gatherers was MESOLITHIC PEOPLE and that movements of NEW people occurred after the L.G.M. some phenotypes appeared after 9000BC in Western Europe and surely they like others beared some Y-HGs and autosomals, did they not?

 

[sparkey]

Maybe there were different groups of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers. In the North-East they may have carried y-haplogroup N, while everywhere else it was I. That would explain why they retained alot of the Paleolithic element, despite speaking their language and having the physical appearance that they have.

I tend to agree with this, although I've struggled to find evidence for Haplogroup I having a Paleolithic presence in the Balkans, while I've found an abundance of evidence of Paleolithic I in Western and Central Europe. I can't say I have any good candidates for surviving haplogroups that would have been in the Balkans during the Paleolithic period. But, at least, we can say that Haplogroup I, which is more common nowadays in the Balkans than practically anywhere, is Paleolithic to Europe as a whole.