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Thread: Haplogroup I and Germanic people

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    Haplogroup I and Germanic people

    Interesting to read about haplogroup I. This is the root of all the ancestors of the Germanic tribes. It means that it has arrived about
    4000 BC in Scandinavia. In those times there was no agriculture in Sweden, so members of haplogroup I descend from the Mesolithic hunters who lived in Western Europe (Germany and France).

    It has been discovered that one third of the Germanic words is not
    Indo-European. Perhaps these bearers of Haplogroup I spoke a language
    with words which were not Indo-European.

    What is known about the hair and eyes colours of haplogroup I?
    Because I read that R1a had genes for fair hair.

    In 1943/1944 some skeletons were discoverd in Skane (south Sweden)
    from 4 a 5000 BC. I read that they looked like the modern Swedes
    and had a nordic appearance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Interesting to read about haplogroup I. This is the root of all the ancestors of the Germanic tribes. It means that it has arrived about
    4000 BC in Scandinavia. In those times there was no agriculture in Sweden, so members of haplogroup I descend from the Mesolithic hunters who lived in Western Europe (Germany and France).
    It is partly correct. The ancestors of Germanic people belonged to haplogroup I1, and a bit to I2b as well, but not I2a.

    Furthermore, they did not become "Germanic" until they blended with the Indo-European R1a people (from the Corded-Ware culture) and the latter arrival of R1b from Central Europe (date unknown, but probably between 2000 and 1000 BCE). The R1b brought the centum branch of Indo-European languages that would, after fusion with the existing language, become ancient Germanic.

    It has been discovered that one third of the Germanic words is not
    Indo-European. Perhaps these bearers of Haplogroup I spoke a language
    with words which were not Indo-European.
    I believe that the various IE languages that developed in Western Europe are all dialects of the Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic, that have partially absorbed the local languages of the region where they settled. In other words, Germanic and Italo-Celtic (now Romance) languages are all IE languages hybridised with pre-existing Neolithic tongues.

    The question is, did these Neolithic languages originated in the native European hunter-gatherers, in the Near-Eastern languages of the early farmers, or hybrids of both ? I prefer to favour the hybrid theory whenever in doubt. I just cannot believe that two groups of people merging into one would choose to speak only the language of one group without taking any loan words at all from the other. Naturally, one must have been dominant, at least for the grammatical structure.

    What is known about the hair and eyes colours of haplogroup I?
    Because I read that R1a had genes for fair hair.

    In 1943/1944 some skeletons were discoverd in Skane (south Sweden)
    from 4 a 5000 BC. I read that they looked like the modern Swedes
    and had a nordic appearance.
    We will know more about this soon. The Y-DNA, mtDNA and autosomal DNA for hair and eye colour of 250 individuals from the Funnelbeaker culture (aka TRB, 4000-2700 BCE) is currently being tested in Germany. I am really looking forward to see the results. This could confirm or disprove my whole theory about the Indo-Europeans bringing haplogroups R1a and R1b to Europe, and native Europeans belonging to haplogroup I. After all, the Genographic Project of National Geographic still insist that Paleolithic Western Europeans belonged to haplogroup R1b. I have clearly explained that this didn't make sense. I hope that ancient DNA tests will prove me right.

    I expect the Y-DNA results to belong primarily to haplogroup I1 or pre-I1 (a few defining mutations missing because they had not yet appeared in 3000 BCE), and possibly a bit of E1b1b, J2b and T, as Scandinavia was already a farming society.

    I also think that the Indo-Europeans brought blond and red hair and blue eyes to Europe, based on the fact that all of them can be found in Central and South Asia, where haplogroup I is absent. But it is not impossible that fair hair and eyes existed in Europe before the IE migrations, if the mutations date from the Ice Age. It could very well be linked to mtDNA haplogroups U5, H1, H3 and/or V, which are found throughout Europe, including the IE homeland. But the very low incidence of fair hair and eyes among the Basques and Saami rather suggests that Europeans had dark hair and eyes before the Indo-European invasions.
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    Probably the haplogroup of R1b arose in Anatolia and about
    5000 BC this haplogroup was present in areas north of Kaukasus.
    But are there proves of their presence in Kaukasus Areas?
    How do the prehistorians know that the haplogroup arose in
    Anatolia and not in Southwest Europa?

    Erik

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    Probably the haplogroup of R1b arose in Anatolia and about
    5000 BC this haplogroup was present in areas north of Kaukasus.
    But are there proves of their presence in Kaukasus Areas?
    How do the prehistorians know that the haplogroup arose in
    Anatolia and not in Southwest Europa?

    Erik
    R1b didn't arise in Anatolia. It just spread to Europe from there. It isn't sure where exactly it first appeared, but in my opinion the most likely place between Central Asia and Mesopotamia around 20,000 years ago. Have a look at this supposed migration map of R1b through the ages. R1b is still present in the northern Caucasus nowadays, and its subclades are all older than those found in Western Europe. So it is not a back migration. Same for the Middle East and Central Asia.

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    But how did scientists know that some squeletons in south Russia
    and Kaukasus (5000 BC) had the haplogroup R1b? Are there proves?
    Why were the Cro-Magnons from southwest France not R1b?

    Erik

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    Quote Originally Posted by Haganus View Post
    But how did scientists know that some squeletons in south Russia
    and Kaukasus (5000 BC) had the haplogroup R1b? Are there proves?
    Why were the Cro-Magnons from southwest France not R1b?

    Erik
    So far, no Y-DNA older than 2600 BCE has been tested. It was in East Germany and all 3 samples were R1a1. The oldest Y-DNA tested in Russia dates from 1800–1400 BCE (Andronovo culture, north-east border of Kazakhstan, near Novosibirsk, so far away from the Caucasus) and the samples were R1a1 and C.

    The oldest R1b sample discovered was in the Lichtenstein Cave (nothing to do with the country) in the Harz mountain in Central Germany. It dates from 1000 BCE. Out of 8 Y-DNA samples, 5 were I2b2, 2 were R1a1 and 1 was R1b. This is consistent with my theory that Western and Northern Europe was mostly peopled by haplogroup I, then the Indo-Europeans arrived and progressively replaced the I lineages by R1a (from 3200 BCE) and R1b (from 2000 BCE) ones.

    If the tests from the Funnelbeaker culture do not reveal the presence of R1a or R1b, then there is no reason to believe that it should be different for Western Europe. Unfortunately the oldest Y-DNA sample from the rest of Europe only dates from 500-700 CE (after the fall of the Roman Empire). However there are plenty of mtDNA samples from all periods, and this matches the migration patterns I have explained here.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
    H1

    Ethnic group
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    How is that in Castille (Spain) the haplogroup I is found in about 1/3 of people ? Any reason ? pre indo-european ? germanic ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    How is that in Castille (Spain) the haplogroup I is found in about 1/3 of people ? Any reason ? pre indo-european ? germanic ?
    It's mostly I2a and it is pre-Indo-European (Paleolithic).

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Ethnic group
    Celtiberians
    Country: Spain - Catalonia



    Is there any good map of haplogroup I in Europe ? Because the ones I have found are all bad.
    Castille is about 30+% of I , but they just show northern Spain as having I .
    I think Maciamo could do a good one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Is there any good map of haplogroup I in Europe ? Because the ones I have found are all bad.
    Castille is about 30+% of I , but they just show northern Spain as having I .
    I think Maciamo could do a good one.
    I am planning to make one. The problem is always time.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U3

    Ethnic group
    Croatian
    Country: Australia



    If you Google "hapologroup I" go to the Wikkipedia link. It has a very good map of Hap I in Europe.

    BTW, I2a is not exclusive to Slavs, there are a number of Germans in FTDNA who belong to this subclade.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogers View Post
    If you Google "hapologroup I" go to the Wikkipedia link. It has a very good map of Hap I in Europe.

    BTW, I2a is not exclusive to Slavs, there are a number of Germans in FTDNA who belong to this subclade.
    The Wikipedia map is crap

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    what else speak group than ural-finnish speakers affected to indo-europeans germanic people?

    Mika J

    you can change your language, but not your genes.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I2a2b
    MtDNA haplogroup
    U3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    The Wikipedia map is crap
    Care to elaborate?

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b (RL-21*)
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    Quote Originally Posted by rogers View Post
    Care to elaborate?
    Wikipedia, particularly sections having to do with genetics, is highly suspect as regards information about any number of population groups. Monitoring of posts has decreased dramatically over the past few years and much information is just simply erroneous or terribly incomplete. Some of it so incredibly bad it is laughable. Use Wikipedia simply as nothing more than a starting point; as a source to reference legitimate footnoted material Don't believe something just because it is in print, particularly if it comes from Wikipedia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rogers View Post
    Care to elaborate?
    Because It is not accurate AT ALL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    It is partly correct. The ancestors of Germanic people belonged to haplogroup I1, and a bit to I2b as well, but not I2a.

    Furthermore, they did not become "Germanic" until they blended with the Indo-European R1a people (from the Corded-Ware culture) and the latter arrival of R1b from Central Europe (date unknown, but probably between 2000 and 1000 BCE). The R1b brought the centum branch of Indo-European languages that would, after fusion with the existing language, become ancient Germanic.



    I believe that the various IE languages that developed in Western Europe are all dialects of the Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic, that have partially absorbed the local languages of the region where they settled. In other words, Germanic and Italo-Celtic (now Romance) languages are all IE languages hybridised with pre-existing Neolithic tongues.

    The question is, did these Neolithic languages originated in the native European hunter-gatherers, in the Near-Eastern languages of the early farmers, or hybrids of both ? I prefer to favour the hybrid theory whenever in doubt. I just cannot believe that two groups of people merging into one would choose to speak only the language of one group without taking any loan words at all from the other. Naturally, one must have been dominant, at least for the grammatical structure.



    We will know more about this soon. The Y-DNA, mtDNA and autosomal DNA for hair and eye colour of 250 individuals from the Funnelbeaker culture (aka TRB, 4000-2700 BCE) is currently being tested in Germany. I am really looking forward to see the results. This could confirm or disprove my whole theory about the Indo-Europeans bringing haplogroups R1a and R1b to Europe, and native Europeans belonging to haplogroup I. After all, the Genographic Project of National Geographic still insist that Paleolithic Western Europeans belonged to haplogroup R1b. I have clearly explained that this didn't make sense. I hope that ancient DNA tests will prove me right.

    I expect the Y-DNA results to belong primarily to haplogroup I1 or pre-I1 (a few defining mutations missing because they had not yet appeared in 3000 BCE), and possibly a bit of E1b1b, J2b and T, as Scandinavia was already a farming society.

    I also think that the Indo-Europeans brought blond and red hair and blue eyes to Europe, based on the fact that all of them can be found in Central and South Asia, where haplogroup I is absent. But it is not impossible that fair hair and eyes existed in Europe before the IE migrations, if the mutations date from the Ice Age. It could very well be linked to mtDNA haplogroups U5, H1, H3 and/or V, which are found throughout Europe, including the IE homeland. But the very low incidence of fair hair and eyes among the Basques and Saami rather suggests that Europeans had dark hair and eyes before the Indo-European invasions.
    The DNA evolution of northen europeans I1 (fair air and eyes color) was similar to R1a the refuge was near the black sea for those 2 haplogroups the spread of R1a to South Asia was long time after that period .http://www.livescience.com/health/080131-blue-eyes.html "indo europeans" (there is not yet evidences about the origin of this langage or culture) was first europeans on the Black Sea area like I1c or R1a etc ...
    ''The mutations responsible for blue eye colour most likely originate from the north-west part of the Black Sea region, where the great agricultural migration of the northern part of Europe took place in the Neolithic periods about 6,000 to 10,000 years ago,'' the researchers report in the journal Human Genetics.
    Nico

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    R1b-S26
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    The DNA evolution of northen europeans I1 (fair air and eyes color)
    Actually being fair haired has nothing to do with being I1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Actually being fair haired has nothing to do with being I1.
    yes may be actually but I talk about scandinavians or germanic Nordic people I1c or R1a and the origin of that mutation . It is also of course linked to mtDNA haplogroups on the Black Sea area of that Neolithic periods .

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    The DNA evolution of northen europeans I1 (fair air and eyes color) was similar to R1a
    Oh really? How about a scientific source for that extravagant claim?

    Hgs. I and R last had common ancestry 45,000 years ago (Hg. IJK) prior to the IE (Hgs. R) invasions 4,000 years ago.

    Northern Europeans are racially hybrid Eurasians.

    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    the refuge was near the black sea for those 2 haplogroups
    Nonsense! Again, how about a scientific source for the extravagant claim that Hg. I was in some refuge "near the black sea"?

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    http://www.dnaheritage.com/images/ma...logroups_2.jpg
    The refuge was near the black sea for those 2 haplogroups I and R1a those human groups refugees during the ice age around the Black Sea have converged to same physical traits humans had taken refuge for so long that their DNA had naturally picked up mutations, and consequently can be defined into different haplogroups but haplogroup is not all DNA just a non-coding DNA . They was no asiatic no eurasian around the black sea during the cold. Ukraina (homeland refuge R1a) is still Europe not Asia !
    Last edited by willy; 19-03-10 at 02:01.

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    Y-DNA haplogroup
    I1d (L22+)
    MtDNA haplogroup
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    Mixture of IE and earlier languages

    "I believe that the various IE languages that developed in Western Europe are all dialects of the Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic, that have partially absorbed the local languages of the region where they settled. In other words, Germanic and Italo-Celtic (now Romance) languages are all IE languages hybridised with pre-existing Neolithic tongues." Maciamo

    I am sure Maciamo's view is fully justified. A hundred years ago one of the German scholars studying Old Irish came to the conclusion after working on its peculiar syntax that the structure of Irish Gaelic had been changed by the influence of the pre existing none IE language, he ascribed these changes to the presence of a language which he believed to be related to the Berber group.

    This would make sense because one of the easiest routes into Ireland is up the west coast of Iberia, a route that was followed by the Gaels themselves.

    I am sorry that I can't remember the name of the gentleman responsible for this theory.
    Last edited by seananton; 27-11-10 at 20:53. Reason: amplification of argument

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    Quote Originally Posted by willy View Post
    The DNA evolution of northen europeans I1 (fair air and eyes color) was similar to R1a the refuge was near the black sea for those 2 haplogroups the spread of R1a to South Asia was long time after that period .http://www.livescience.com/health/080131-blue-eyes.html "indo europeans" (there is not yet evidences about the origin of this langage or culture) was first europeans on the Black Sea area like I1c or R1a etc ...
    ''The mutations responsible for blue eye colour most likely originate from the north-west part of the Black Sea region, where the great agricultural migration of the northern part of Europe took place in the Neolithic periods about 6,000 to 10,000 years ago,'' the researchers report in the journal Human Genetics.
    In relation to specific groups within I haplogroup and their foundation places:

    The work of Ken Nordtvedt and the work of Peter Underhill supports the idea that I1 was founded around Denmark, post LGM.

    Nordtvedt suggests a Danube Basin founder for I2a2a-Dinaric; a north German founder for L161 I2a2b-Isles; and an Iberian founder for M26 I2a1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yorkie View Post
    In relation to specific groups within I haplogroup and their foundation places:

    The work of Ken Nordtvedt and the work of Peter Underhill supports the idea that I1 was founded around Denmark, post LGM.

    Nordtvedt suggests a Danube Basin founder for I2a2a-Dinaric; a north German founder for L161 I2a2b-Isles; and an Iberian founder for M26 I2a1.
    Yorkie,

    Do you know Prof. Nordtvedt's view on I2b1 (M223)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Catchabus View Post
    Yorkie,

    Do you know Prof. Nordtvedt's view on I2b1 (M223)?
    Yes. Ken calls this 'I2b1-Continental' [there are 2 forms], and this is the main form of I2b1 [old I1c]. I believe that it may have been founded in northern France and from there brought upwards to Scandinavia. The densest distribution is north-west Germany and Netherlands, then up to Denmark and even southern Sweden and Norway. When found in Britain, it is usually seen as more of a signal of Anglo Saxon invaders than Scandinavians. Nordtvedt dates I2b1 to 2,650 BC.

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