Haplogroup I and Germanic people

[willy]

http://www.dnaheritage.com/images/masterclass/europe_haplogroups_2.jpg
The refuge was near the black sea for those 2 haplogroups I and R1a those human groups refugees during the ice age around the Black Sea have converged to same physical traits humans had taken refuge for so long that their DNA had naturally picked up mutations, and consequently can be defined into different haplogroups but haplogroup is not all DNA just a non-coding DNA . They was no asiatic no eurasian around the black sea during the cold. Ukraina (homeland refuge R1a) is still Europe not Asia !

 

[seananton]

Mixture of IE and earlier languages

"I believe that the various IE languages that developed in Western Europe are all dialects of the Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic, that have partially absorbed the local languages of the region where they settled. In other words, Germanic and Italo-Celtic (now Romance) languages are all IE languages hybridised with pre-existing Neolithic tongues." Maciamo

I am sure Maciamo's view is fully justified. A hundred years ago one of the German scholars studying Old Irish came to the conclusion after working on its peculiar syntax that the structure of Irish Gaelic had been changed by the influence of the pre existing none IE language, he ascribed these changes to the presence of a language which he believed to be related to the Berber group.

This would make sense because one of the easiest routes into Ireland is up the west coast of Iberia, a route that was followed by the Gaels themselves.

I am sorry that I can't remember the name of the gentleman responsible for this theory.

 

[Yorkie]

The DNA evolution of northen europeans I1 (fair air and eyes color) was similar to R1a the refuge was near the black sea for those 2 haplogroups the spread of R1a to South Asia was long time after that period .http://www.livescience.com/health/080131-blue-eyes.html "indo europeans" (there is not yet evidences about the origin of this langage or culture) was first europeans on the Black Sea area like I1c or R1a etc ...
''The mutations responsible for blue eye colour most likely originate from the north-west part of the Black Sea region, where the great agricultural migration of the northern part of Europe took place in the Neolithic periods about 6,000 to 10,000 years ago,'' the researchers report in the journal Human Genetics.

In relation to specific groups within I haplogroup and their foundation places:

The work of Ken Nordtvedt and the work of Peter Underhill supports the idea that I1 was founded around Denmark, post LGM.

Nordtvedt suggests a Danube Basin founder for I2a2a-Dinaric; a north German founder for L161 I2a2b-Isles; and an Iberian founder for M26 I2a1.

 

[Catchabus]

In relation to specific groups within I haplogroup and their foundation places:

The work of Ken Nordtvedt and the work of Peter Underhill supports the idea that I1 was founded around Denmark, post LGM.

Nordtvedt suggests a Danube Basin founder for I2a2a-Dinaric; a north German founder for L161 I2a2b-Isles; and an Iberian founder for M26 I2a1.

Yorkie,

Do you know Prof. Nordtvedt's view on I2b1 (M223)?

 

[Yorkie]

Yorkie,

Do you know Prof. Nordtvedt's view on I2b1 (M223)?

Yes. Ken calls this 'I2b1-Continental' [there are 2 forms], and this is the main form of I2b1 [old I1c]. I believe that it may have been founded in northern France and from there brought upwards to Scandinavia. The densest distribution is north-west Germany and Netherlands, then up to Denmark and even southern Sweden and Norway. When found in Britain, it is usually seen as more of a signal of Anglo Saxon invaders than Scandinavians. Nordtvedt dates I2b1 to 2,650 BC.

 

[Catchabus]

Thanks. You seem very knowledgeable about Hg I yourself. Would you associate the Vandals with I2b1? I wonder how this Germanic group ended up in Sicily, where I’m from. The best bet may be Norman (possibly Lombard) because of the historical record, but I wonder also if it could have been one of the “barbarian” tribes; e.g., Vandals.

 

[Yorkie]

Thanks. You seem very knowledgeable about Hg I yourself. Would you associate the Vandals with I2b1? I wonder how this Germanic group ended up in Sicily, where I’m from. The best bet may be Norman (possibly Lombard) because of the historical record, but I wonder also if it could have been one of the “barbarian” tribes; e.g., Vandals.

Thanks, I do my best! I don't know for sure [who does?] but I suspect that you are on the right lines here regarding either Normans or earlier Vandals. What is certain is that you possess a Ydna line of Germanic/Scandinavian origin. I personally think the Sicilian location makes Norman incursions most likely. The thing about the Normans is that they were a rather mixed bunch. For example, the 1066 invasion force that landed in Hastings [my country, England] contained warriors and nobles who descended from Norwegians and Danes, alongside Bretons, Flemings, Franks, Gascons, Picards etc. One clue in your case, and it is only a slim one, is that generally I2b1 is more associated with lowland Germanic countries than with Scandinavia. Maybe you descend from Frankish-Norman stock?

 

[Catchabus]

Thanks again; especially that final clue. The town I come from in NW Sicily does have a historical connection with the Normans, who built a church there in 1090 (still extant).

 

[Yorkie]

Thanks again; especially that final clue. The town I come from in NW Sicily does have a historical connection with the Normans, who built a church there in 1090 (still extant).

Does your family name have any suggestions of Norman origins? Do you possess pedigrees or a paper-trail which might suggest Norman ancestry?

 

[Catchabus]

Does your family name have any suggestions of Norman origins? Do you possess pedigrees or a paper-trail which might suggest Norman ancestry?

I’m afraid not. The name is common in NW Sicily and I have come across some records (other people’s genealogy) showing it has been there since at least 1700. Determining a paper trail for my family is nearly impossible.

I can only base this belief on anecdotal evidence, starting with the church dedicated to St. George built by the Normans at the end of the 11th century, as well as the town’s castle. Also, light colored eyes (blue, hazel) are very common (I’d say close to 50%), and light colored hair, especially among the young, is also common, including a few red heads.

The DiGaetano paper, Differential Greek and northern African migrations to Sicily are supported by genetic evidence from the Y chromosome, includes my hometown, Caccamo, and the results indicate the presence of I1, R1a, and I2b1. However, the sample size is small and, more troubling, includes some questionable data. I have a direct match with one mini haplotype, but it’s classified as I1 (M253).

Link to paper: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/pdf/ejhg2008120a.pdf

Link to supporting data: http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/extref/ejhg2008120x1.xls

 

[bud]

I2b1 has a hot spot in Sardinia no doubt from Norman invasion, I would think given its vicinity Sicily would have a few people with that line.

 

[Yorkie]

I2b1 has a hot spot in Sardinia no doubt from Norman invasion, I would think given its vicinity Sicily would have a few people with that line.

bud,
I didn't know that. Whereabouts exactly is the hotspot in Sardinia? As far as I was aware it was M26 I2a1 that had a Sardinian hotspot.

 

[RH NEG-I]

Yes. Ken calls this 'I2b1-Continental' [there are 2 forms], and this is the main form of I2b1 [old I1c]. I believe that it may have been founded in northern France and from there brought upwards to Scandinavia. The densest distribution is north-west Germany and Netherlands, then up to Denmark and even southern Sweden and Norway. When found in Britain, it is usually seen as more of a signal of Anglo Saxon invaders than Scandinavians. Nordtvedt dates I2b1 to 2,650 BC.

Forgive my lack of real understanding here but arent the Viking invaders of Scotland different from the Anglo Saxons? I ask this because My ancestors can be traced to Northern Scotland (inverness). I think about 20 percent of Northern Scots are I1 as I am.

 

[Regulus]

Northern Scotland was settled by an appreciable amount of Scandinavians. The Earldom of Orkney survived for some time past the Viking era. You should be able to find a decent amount of information on related haplogroups on this forum. I think that you are on track. I would go with Scandinavians as being the most likely because I have never seen any evidence of Anglo-Saxon settlements in that part of Scotland.

Semper Fi

 

[Yorkie]

Northern Scotland was settled by an appreciable amount of Scandinavians. The Earldom of Orkney survived for some time past the Viking era. You should be able to find a decent amount of information on related haplogroups on this forum. I think that you are on track. I would go with Scandinavians as being the most likely because I have never seen any evidence of Anglo-Saxon settlements in that part of Scotland.

Semper Fi

The Scandinavian influence in Scotland, as you suggest, is largely Norwegian. They would certainly carry I1.

I agree regarding Anglo-Saxon settlement; in Scotland this is largely limited to the Anglian settlements of Lothian, in lowland Scotland.

Scandinavian I1 genes in northern Scotland might also, in the cases of a few individuals in Norman-descended Clans [usually the chieftain lines], actually hail from the Normans. Certainly, the rather mixed Normans- which included Flemings, Franks, Bretons etc-might have brought I1 to northern Scotland in some cases.

 

[Regulus]

The Scandinavian influence in Scotland, as you suggest, is largely Norwegian. They would certainly carry I1.

I agree regarding Anglo-Saxon settlement; in Scotland this is largely limited to the Anglian settlements of Lothian, in lowland Scotland.

Scandinavian I1 genes in northern Scotland might also, in the cases of a few individuals in Norman-descended Clans [usually the chieftain lines], actually hail from the Normans. Certainly, the rather mixed Normans- which included Flemings, Franks, Bretons etc-might have brought I1 to northern Scotland in some cases.

The point about Normans in the lines of the nobility does make sense. I have no idea about YDNA of aristocratic descendants in Ireland, but what you wrote could work there too as a number of the surnames there are from Norman nobility.

 

[Yorkie]

The point about Normans in the lines of the nobility does make sense. I have no idea about YDNA of aristocratic descendants in Ireland, but what you wrote could work there too as a number of the surnames there are from Norman nobility.

I agree that, in theory, it could work regarding the descendants of Strongbow's Cambro-Normans in Ireland. There has been an awful lot of emigration from Ireland since then though, and I1 is effectively absent in Ireland. It does occur but more in Ulster where it conceivably might be an echo of the more 'recent' Williamite Planters of largely 'Border' English and lowland Scots origin. Isolated cases of I1 in Ireland might also be echoes of earlier Elizabethan Planters [I am thinking of Dublin, Wexford etc[, or even earlier than Strongbow's Normans i.e, echoes of the Norse and Danes that raided and temporarily settled in Ireland. At any rate, there is not much I1 there, north or south.

 

[Regulus]

Thanks for following that up. Either way, there would definitely be less in Ireland than Northern Scotland with the Norwegians or East England with the Danes. Those two are areas where they settled in larger numbers.

 

[Yorkie]

Thanks for following that up. Either way, there would definitely be less in Ireland than Northern Scotland with the Norwegians or East England with the Danes. Those two are areas where they settled in larger numbers.

There is a little overlap re the Danes and Norse [Norwegians]. People tend to think of the Danes as mainly raiding and settling east of the Pennines, and mainly England. That is largely true, but there is some evidence of Danish settlement across the Pennines in east Cheshire, and in lowland Scotland. The Norwegians have a considerable legacy in the Northern Isles and Hebrides, and were the major Scandinavian input in mainland Scotland [Argyll etc], and England west of the Pennines, especially Cumberland, Lancashire and the Wirral in west Cheshire.
In north Yorkshire though, there is a bit of overlap with some Norwegian influence creeping over into the Dales alongside Danish, and we must remember that for a while York or Jorvik was in the hands of Norwegians.

I often reflect though that a Swedish element in the Viking raiders has been grossly underestimated. My Maternal Grandfather's I1 haplotype [a Yorkshireman who descends from an east Cheshire landed family] matches the Western Norway modal but there are many, many Swedish matches for his 'Scandinavian' I1 signature, with 23 at 390, 14, 14 at 385a,b, 13 at 462, 12 and 28 at 389i/389ii and 12, 14, 15, 16 at 464a,b,c,d. I would like to bet that there was a decent showing of Swedes, especially from Skane, in the raiding parties of Danes and Norwegians.

 

[Regulus]

There is a little overlap re the Danes and Norse [Norwegians]. People tend to think of the Danes as mainly raiding and settling east of the Pennines, and mainly England. That is largely true, but there is some evidence of Danish settlement across the Pennines in east Cheshire, and in lowland Scotland. The Norwegians have a considerable legacy in the Northern Isles and Hebrides, and were the major Scandinavian input in mainland Scotland [Argyll etc], and England west of the Pennines, especially Cumberland, Lancashire and the Wirral in west Cheshire.
In north Yorkshire though, there is a bit of overlap with some Norwegian influence creeping over into the Dales alongside Danish, and we must remember that for a while York or Jorvik was in the hands of Norwegians.

I often reflect though that a Swedish element in the Viking raiders has been grossly underestimated. My Maternal Grandfather's I1 haplotype [a Yorkshireman who descends from an east Cheshire landed family] matches the Western Norway modal but there are many, many Swedish matches for his 'Scandinavian' I1 signature, with 23 at 390, 14, 14 at 385a,b, 13 at 462, 12 and 28 at 389i/389ii and 12, 14, 15, 16 at 464a,b,c,d. I would like to bet that there was a decent showing of Swedes, especially from Skane, in the raiding parties of Danes and Norwegians.

Interesting. Swedes mostly went East with Danes (who went East and West) where Varangians (and Rus by the Finns) was used to describe them. But I would not doubt that some individuals or small groups went West with Danes or Norwegians. Their language and culture would have made such contacts easy I would think.