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Thread: Where did the missing markers go? Null values of Y-DNA haplogroup I

  1. #1
    Zoe needs to know. Princess Zoe's Avatar
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    Where did the missing markers go? Null values of Y-DNA haplogroup I

    Dad’s Y-DNA
    Where did the missing markers go?
    It’s a long story.
    First I had the 12 marker done at FTDNA from a sample from my brother.
    I expected this to be simple, probably an R1a, most common in Europe, French Canadian background. No problem, end of story...not so.
    I get the results of the 12 makers, just numbers, makes no sense to me, till I find Whit Athey’s Haplogroup Predictor. Ok, this will be great...not so. Results show 70% favor I2a1, 30% R1a. Oh no, now what’s a girl to do?
    So I sign up to “DNA-Forum” and post the results for general discussion. If you are familiar with this group, you know who the players are.
    So we get from ilmari, Aug 27, 2009:
    “12 markers is not very telling. It is telling that he has zero 12/12 matches.
    I find it "interesting" that there is also a 10/12 "C" from Kazakhstan. I would suggest upgrading to 67 marker.”
    Igmayka responds Aug 27, 2009
    "I re-ran Zoe's haplotype with Athey's (beta-test) 23-haplogroup predictor.
    If you enter Zoe's 10 YHRD markers into that database, it finds exactly one match: in Beijing! To be fair, YHRD does not consider either DYS426 or DYS388, which are the two crucial markers in this very unusual case. And frankly, I don't know why Athey's predictor gives such a high fitness score to C3. As far as I can tell, C3 is just as "insistent" on an 11 at DYS426 as I2a1 is."
    In the meantime, FTDNA is doing FREE SNP testing! Results of SNP testing is Haplogroup I but not I2a and not I2b. What?
    Now I order the 67 marker. They are dragging this out so they send me the results piecemeal, one panel at a time, joy.
    I get the results of the second panel, markers 13-25, my friends on DNA-Forum are now predicting I2*.
    With the next panel (we have switched to using Cullen’s Haplogroup Predictor) we come up with 100% I-S31*-B cluster (joy).
    I am still waiting for Panel 4 (48-60) and Panel 4 (61-67).
    BULLETIN: THERE IS A DELAY IN TESTING, YOU HAVE MISSING MARKERS (NULL VALUES)
    Now we wait some more while they re-test the 2 missing markers...
    Anyone have a clue to this? With missing markers (null) will this still be in I-S31*-B cluster or something else? I may have to be in a group by myself, I am not going to have any friends, I mean cousins...
    I have a few other questions, maybe not so complicated. I started all this DNA testing as a result of doing my family tree. As such, it is traced to Quebec and Nova Scotia, out of Normandy, France. I mean ALL of them. They must have come over here by the boat loads. I have traced the family to Henry I, William the Conqueror, and Rollo the Viking (which is all the same). I actually don’t put much stock in this stuff because I am borrowing most of my family tree from others work...there are some Kings Daughters, much interbreeding...
    So does anyone know the Y-DNA haplogroup of King Henry I, William...
    Princess Zoe

  2. #2
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
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    The R1a is not the most common in Europe, it is the R1b..

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    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    The best way to ascertain your haplogroup is to test all the candidate SNP's (in your cases, the subclades of I). That's why I prefer tests like 23andMe to FTDNA. Not only is it faster to get your results and more informative (Y-DNA, mtDNA + autosomal DNA), but you know exactly your haplogroup and subclade without any additional test (and potentially long waiting) required.

    I find it almost dishonest on FTDNA's part to say that they do a free backbone SNP test, then only tell you that you are I, without specifying if it is I1, I2*, I2a or I2b, a very basic distinction. Other people have complained about that before.

    In answer to your second question, no Y-DNA of medieval European kings has been tested so far. The Y-DNA lines of William the Conqueror, Charlemagne or other famous monarchs are officially extinct (they could have survived as bastard lines, but we cannot know unless their skeleton's DNA is tested, which is not likely to happen any time soon).
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  4. #4
    Zoe needs to know. Princess Zoe's Avatar
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    Yes, you are correct.

  5. #5
    Zoe needs to know. Princess Zoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I find it almost dishonest on FTDNA's part to say that they do a free backbone SNP test, then only tell you that you are I, without specifying if it is I1, I2*, I2a or I2b, a very basic distinction. Other people have complained about that before.
    Yes, but when asked, FTDNA did send me the full sequence of SNP’s that they tested. I would post it here but it is in a spread sheet format and I don’t know how. The results did rule out I2a...

  6. #6
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    In answer to your second question, no Y-DNA of medieval European kings has been tested so far. The Y-DNA lines of William the Conqueror, Charlemagne or other famous monarchs are officially extinct (they could have survived as bastard lines, but we cannot know unless their skeleton's DNA is tested, which is not likely to happen any time soon).
    For King Henry I, William the Conqueror and Rollo,
    are you saying that all the male lines died out? That seems impossible considering that they spread their seed freely. But anyway I am related in maternal lines, in three different ways, all from his concubines. The information may sound questionable BUT I have proof that I/we are related to Royalty!
    It’s the ugly thumb syndrome! This past Christmas we had a family reunion (11 siblings, lots of kids...40 people or more) to celebrate the holidays. At the big party we all were comparing our ugly thumbs. I don’t have them but Dad, the sister I live with and others have the thumbs. They are stubby and look like big toes.
    After we all went home, older sister emailed us about the thumb thing. She had found a name for it:
    Brachydactyly, or better known as clubbed or stub thumbs.
    According to Wikipedia ‘clubbed thumb’ is a sign of descent from European royal blood lines, is due to inbreeding and is a dominate trait. Hence the Royal families were proud of their thumbs. According to the science – as a way of judging blood lines the clubbed (or stub) thumbs trait might be ideal because of its expression (i.e. it shows up relatively often in the few families who have it).

  7. #7
    Satyavrata Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Princess Zoe View Post
    For King Henry I, William the Conqueror and Rollo,
    are you saying that all the male lines died out? That seems impossible considering that they spread their seed freely.
    All legitimate, officially recognised patrilineal lines died out, yes. The English/British monarchy had to pass the crown to maternally related cousins many times in history (Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha, Hannover, Orange-Nassau, Stuart, Tudor, etc.)

    According to Wikipedia ‘clubbed thumb’ is a sign of descent from European royal blood lines, is due to inbreeding and is a dominate trait. Hence the Royal families were proud of their thumbs. According to the science – as a way of judging blood lines the clubbed (or stub) thumbs trait might be ideal because of its expression (i.e. it shows up relatively often in the few families who have it).
    The Windsors had a high incidence of haemophilia, the so-called "Royal disease". That doesn't mean that the mutation originated in the Royal family. It's found all over the world. Brachydactyly is found at least in all Europe, so the mutation must have originated many thousands years ago, before any present European monarchy existed.

    Anyway, all Europeans are descended from Royals. Almost everybody in Western Europe is descended from Charlemagne, and about everyone in Britain and northern France can claim to descend from William the Conqueror.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    All legitimate, officially recognised patrilineal lines died out, yes. The English/British monarchy had to pass the crown to maternally related cousins many times in history (Saxe-Cobourg-Gotha, Hannover, Orange-Nassau, Stuart, Tudor, etc.)



    The Windsors had a high incidence of haemophilia, the so-called "Royal disease". That doesn't mean that the mutation originated in the Royal family. It's found all over the world. Brachydactyly is found at least in all Europe, so the mutation must have originated many thousands years ago, before any present European monarchy existed.
    You are correct in saying that haemophilia and brachydactyly did not oringinate with Royality, of course it didn't. But they proprogated it among themselves by inbreeding. Only then did haemophilia become a problem.

    But the scientific community learned a lot about genetics because of the "Royal Disease", which has benifited all of us. So geneticaly speaking, maybe brachydactyly would also be a good thing to study, if not for some scientific reason, just for fun.

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    going by your picture and facial features your male lineage from your dad is probably I1 since thats the viking marker etc or maybe i2b! i dont think you are the dinaric or sardinian/basque I.. since you look very scandinavian or north germanic and not dinaric or basque/sardinian mtdna is more complicated imo.. you shoud maybe try a autosomal test as well!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by maltesekid View Post
    going by your picture and facial features your male lineage from your dad is probably I1 since thats the viking marker etc or maybe i2b! i dont think you are the dinaric or sardinian/basque I.. since you look very scandinavian or north germanic and not dinaric or basque/sardinian mtdna is more complicated imo.. you shoud maybe try a autosomal test as well!
    I read somewhere that one cannot go by how one looks. That the particular genes are scrambled by 3 generations and no longer dominate. Which I think this would be true, unless there were a lot of inbreeding, as such is the case with the Royalty that I believe I am descended from. But I don't think that is that too important. What I do think is important is the inbreeding that took place once they came to North America. That's what is great about family tree software, it can calculate all kinds of stuff. For instance my grandparents are related in three different ways, it may be 6/7 generations ago, but X3 could be significant. As far as I know, they didn't know they were related. Today I am going to work on seeing how these gggggg grandparents are related to each other. That might be interesting.
    As far as autosomal testing, I think I spent my quota on DNA testing.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    The R1a is not the most common in Europe, it is the R1b..
    This is where I meant to put the "Yes, you are correct", by itself, without the quote it didn't make sense.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maltesekid View Post
    going by your picture and facial features your male lineage from your dad is probably I1 since thats the viking marker etc or maybe i2b! i dont think you are the dinaric or sardinian/basque I.. since you look very scandinavian or north germanic and not dinaric or basque/sardinian mtdna is more complicated imo.. you shoud maybe try a autosomal test as well!
    The most common haplogroups in Scandinavian countries is R1 (R1a+R1b) so not because someone looks Nordic means it has to be I1

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    The most common haplogroups in Scandinavian countries is R1 (R1a+R1b) so not because someone looks Nordic means it has to be I1
    So where can I find I-S31*? That is what country?

  14. #14
    Regular Member Wilhelm's Avatar
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    S31 is M438, which is more common in Eastern Europe

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    S31 is M438, which is more common in Eastern Europe
    Do you know the % of population? And the age?

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    Re 23andMe

    One responder repies that 23andMe is the way to go. Don't be so sure. When 23andMe came back with my Haplogroup results, they just said I was Hg I1. Yet when I looked into the list of SNP's they provide, there was the snp for L22 which identifies me as I1d. (No snp for P109 which would have classifed me as I1d1.)
    From other forum info I had already tested at FTDNA for L22 and knew I was I1d.
    I think 23andMe are much more focused on the medical results, which is what I was really after. They do a good job on the medical side, in my opinion, and do all the translation for you.
    It is a bit of a steep learning curve to get into the raw data provided on the all the snp's. It used to be 500,000 snps. Now it is 1,000,000 snps with their latest chip. Talk about looking for a needle in the haystack!

  17. #17
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    I have been fooling around with different predicators online, i.e, athey, cullen's etc etc but I found this one below to give also 1 level of subclade

    http://predictor.ydna.ru/

    I tested it on 11 different ftdna ( confirmed subclades) random numbers from different haplogroups and have 100% agreement with ftdna.
    I asume it's value is limited unless upgrades are made.

    Again , I state , it only gives 1 level of subclade so you still need to get further subclades tested as per norm.
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

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