Brachycephaly

[Neander]

Where we find brachycephaly?

Where did it come from?

Brachycephaly is characteristic of Dinaric, Alpine, Noric, Borreby, Armenoid and Neodanubian races.

How was created firstly?

[Maciamo]

I am not sure. I am interested to know too.

[Sprinkles]

It appears that it correlates with mountainous regions of Europe.

With such a high degree of correlation, we can assume that cro-magnum, who was not highly adapted to European climate and mountaneous terrains would have likely had difficulty in transversing and adapting to these regions. The neanderthals would have remained as they were, and since they had evolved for 400,000 years in Europe, in seasonal climates and cold weather, the genome would not as easily have been diluted in these areas of which they have adaptive advantages over cro-magnum. The gene pool in these areas is most likely a high degree of neanderthal genome.

Secondly, I know that Neander if fixated on a town in Albania showing the highest cephalic index in Europe, and he is somewhat fixated on the idea that this genome is E1b1b. There is no evidence for this assumption. The genome could very well be I2a2. Secondly, regions of which I2a2 is of 70% frequency show very high levels of brachcephaly. The E1b1b of Albania is 22%, while I2a2 is 17%. We can't infer from this anything since the frequency is not high enough - and thus does not gives us any probability to assume that it's either one or the other. On the other hand, in areas of 70% frequency, or more, of i2a2 - there is a high level of Brachycephaly.

An albanian village showing a high level of brachycephaly does not indicate it is the highest in Europe. Where my father is from, in Hercegovina, the population of his town and our siblings are very high brachcephaly. People in these regions are not favorable to foreigners and people are skeptical of outsiders. I would be suprised if villages in Hercegovina did no represent much higher cephalic index than that presumed to be the mean of the areas. I know, for example, my fathers lineage has probably the largest cephalic index i've ever observed from a micro-population.

[Joro]

Sprinkles,there is an interesting new study about Croatian cranium:
http://hrcak.srce.hr/index.php?show=...ak_jezik=42706

and it says we are mostly dolicephalic(!!)

Samples are from Zagreb-which sould say a mix of whole Croatia.
I don't know how this Coon's cephalic index is reliable after 70 years.There is also a study for southern Dalmatia(where people are basically the same as in your Herzegovina),and results there show most people are mesocephalic.

[Sprinkles]

Zagreb shows a lower cephalic index than Hercegovina and the frequency of I2a2 is much lower in northern Croatia. Probably due to admixture of populations to the northeast, which have little mountainous terrain. Zagreb is not very mountainous, which would also correspond to my original hypothesis.

[Neander]

But Zagreb was used as a presentation of whole Croatia because there are people from whole country.

[Neander]

Somebody who knows geography and geology,

there are two types of mountains, New and Old,,

New mountains are Alps, Dinarides, Pirinees, Apenines, Carpathians, Caucasus, etc.

As I have seen, we find brachycephals mostly in the New mountains, and rarely in Old mountains.

[Joro]

Well i believe there are much natives from Zagreb area in that study,it's like 50% Zagreb:50% whole Croatia,as it is probably the 'ethnic' situation in Zagreb itself.
Zagreb obviously had a very strong Slavic(Croatian) settlement as it has preserved the original Slavic dolicephalic/nordic continuity.

[Sprinkles]

There's nothing to support your hypothesis. My claim was that mountainous regions were protection for neanderthals since they evolved in a colder climate and seasonal one for hundred of thousands of years prior to cro-magnum. The cold climate, which it itself is highly adaptive to, would be exaggerated in mountainous terrain.

The proposal for that study of Zagreb is simple. Even if their Y-DNA is of 30-40% I2a2, and Hercegovina is 70% - the difference between 30% and 70% is significant and justifies a lot of gene flow into the various populations. This gene flow would have taken place northeast and east of Zagreb where passage is easy for hundreds of miles. The gene flow would most definitely dilute a neanderthal autosomal DNA since there is clear passage to the area from many paths in Europe. Zagreb is also a capital, and capitals are the most diluted genomes of a nation - since, of course, they are bedrocks of migration, capital, and immigration of other people. Mountainous regions are not prone to the same types of gene flow and act as homogeneous populations.

[Neander]

Also we find brachycephaly among Lapps, Koreans, and Amerindians. They are of another branch, I think they inherited brachycephaly from another race and Dinaric-Alpine-Borreby inherited it from another race.

[Neander]

Well, did you read that article of Coon, or you did read only what I cited?
http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Furt...pter-XII13.htm

The mean cephalic index of the Ghegs is 85, as with most Dinarics. Geographically, however, the highest indices are found in the west, in Malsia Jakovës, Zadrima, and Mati, the three tribes situated on the coastal side of the mountain chain; here the means lie between 86.5 and 87.

These are North Albanian regions where E-V13 is most spread.

And the tittle is "Albania and Dinaric race"

In another sample we have a argument that Malësia e Mbishkodrës in Northwest Albania is "most dinaricized" country in Europe.

http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/p-39.htm

An exaggeratedly tall, lean, and long-faced Dinaric from Klementi, the northernmost bairak of the tribe of Malsia ë Madhë. Northern Albania is probably the most highly Dinaricized country in Europe.

In another side, we know that Albanians are true descendants of Illyrians, and croatians are slavic people.

Even if croatians assimilated some illyrians, again you must understand that croatians are more slavis then Albanians, therefore more I2a2 or R1a, and Albanians are more illyrians than croatians therefore more E-v13 and J2b.

[Joro]

R1a is Slavic,not I2a2.

[Joro]

P.S. Neander I see on Coon's cephalic map the cephalic index going over 88 somewhere in southern Albania,do we have anything written about this?
and are there any modern studies about CI in Albania?it would be interesting.

[Neander]

The only adequate anthropometric data extant which deals with the Toscs is a series from southwestern Albania, from the town of Gjinokastër and its neighborhood.
Their cephalic index mean, 90.8, is by far the highest recorded in Europe.

http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Furt...pter-XII13.htm

[Neander]

R1a is Slavic,not I2a2.

Definitely it is not illyrian.

[Joro]

I agree I2a2 is not Illyrian,it is native west Balkan,possibly Vlach,because secondary maximum is in Romanian Moldova(+40%).
However,i think what Sprinkles tries to say it may be Illyrian in sense Illyrians assimilated the I2a2 people(like today's Slavs did).

I found some study on the net which shows Kosovars have cephalic index of 83,5.

[Neander]

I found some study on the net which shows Kosovars have cephalic index of 83,5.

I don't believe, because North Albanians and Kosovo Albanians have the same ancestry, even before few generations.

Myself , I have some above 90.

And I don't know what do you mean "Illyrians assimilated natives I2a2"

Dear collegue, Illyrians invaded several times the Italy, and we cannot find I2a2 in Italy, maybe except any rare case.

Judged by distribution, I2a2 came in the Balkan during Dark Ages.

If this is native to Balkan, as you pretend from Mesolthic it must have been spread all around Europe, as did other haplogroups of Balkan.

I don't know, if this is Vlach from Moldavia, or Slavs, or Sarmatians, who knows?

But it came during dark ages, 500-700 AD

[Joro]

I don't believe, because North Albanians and Kosovo Albanians have the same ancestry, even before few generations.

Myself , I have some above 90.

And I don't know what do you mean "Illyrians assimilated natives I2a2"

Dear collegue, Illyrians invaded several times the Italy, and we cannot find I2a2 in Italy, maybe except any rare case.

Judged by distribution, I2a2 came in the Balkan during Dark Ages.

If this is native to Balkan, as you pretend from Mesolthic it must have been spread all around Europe, as did other haplogroups of Balkan.

I don't know, if this is Vlach from Moldavia, or Slavs, or Sarmatians, who knows?

But it came during dark ages, 500-700 AD

It is certainly nor Illyrian nor Slavic per se.
It may have come with the Vlachs from Romania to NW Balkans,or the other way round....
In northern Italy you have 10% I2a,just like in western Croatia.

[Joro]

Concerning I2a2 and it's spread...well,the characteristic of north-west Balkans is that the I2a2 is dominant,and you have significantly lower neolithic lineages,giving out the strong possibility I2a2 survived those invaders.
Among Bosnian Croats you have 73% I2a2 and hardly over 10% Neolithic linages,while in other Balkan countries you have 35-40% neolithic on average.
Obviously when those neolithic mediterranean lineages came,they avoided west balkan mountainous area,as it was too far and mountain isolated from Danube neolithic path.
Concerning Illyrians-I didn't say Illyrians brought I2a2 anywhere,but that there is a possibility they assimilated some I2a2 people,in Herzegovina and Montenegro notably.

[Sprinkles]

I don't believe, because North Albanians and Kosovo
Judged by distribution, I2a2 came in the Balkan during Dark Ages.
If this is native to Balkan, as you pretend from Mesolthic it must have been spread all around Europe, as did other haplogroups of Balkan.
I don't know, if this is Vlach from Moldavia, or Slavs, or Sarmatians, who knows?
But it came during dark ages, 500-700 AD

Are you really going to claim this again?

There is evidence that Haplogroup I originated in the Dinaric Alps and spread throughout Europe henceforth. It is from a link you provided that attempted to prove the opposite, and, on the contrary, proved what you intended to disprove.

Either post evidence of your aforementioned hypothesis - or stop repeating a lie.

This is a link you posted:
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=...LF2L1YU7G0uW2Q

This is what the discussion states:

Various episodes of population movement have affected southeast Europe, and the role of the Balkans as a longstanding gateway to Europe from the Near East is illustrated by the phylogenetic unification of Hgs I and J by the basal M429 mutation.31 This evidence of common ancestry suggests that ancestral IJ-M429* Y chromosomes probably entered Europe through the Balkan route sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum. They subsequently evolved into Hg J in the Middle East and Hg I in Europe in a typical disjunctive phylogeographic pattern. Such a geographic corridor is likely to have experienced additional subsequent gene flows, including the migration of agricultural colonists from the Middle East. Pottery is a useful proxy for the spread of farming both spatially and temporally. The first appearance of pottery in the Adriatic region was in Corfu at 6500 BC and reached the northern most Adriatic B1000 years later.21 Its dispersal provides a comparative template for spatial and temporal patterns of Y chromosome Hg diversity observed in this area.

Claiming that the origin of Haplogroup I in the Balkans came from middle age migration is probably the stupidest thing one could keep repeating. It shows a total lack of understand that permeates any reasonable level of discourse on genetics. Do you really believe this yourself?


Are you going to keep repeating this stupidity?

[Sprinkles]

I agree I2a2 is not Illyrian,it is native west Balkan,possibly Vlach,because secondary maximum is in Romanian Moldova(+40%).
However,i think what Sprinkles tries to say it may be Illyrian in sense Illyrians assimilated the I2a2 people(like today's Slavs did).

I found some study on the net which shows Kosovars have cephalic index of 83,5.

I2a2 is most definitely Illyrian.

Illyrians were probably a mixture of I2a2 (mostly) and E1b1b. The Greeks were in contact with a mixture of 50% E1b1b and 50% I2a2 Illyria's. All the Illyrias from Hercegovina, and north, were I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina. This was, with all due probability, a haplogroup I2a2 tribe.

[Joro]

Here we have a furious argue were Illyrians I2a2 or E1b1b,
and I say Illyrians were R1b

[Joro]

I don't believe, because North Albanians and Kosovo Albanians have the same ancestry, even before few generations.

Myself , I have some above 90.

That's what researches say.
I was also shocked to found out that Zagreb(1/4 of Croatian population) is mostly dolicephalic.

[Sprinkles]

http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Furt...pter-XII12.htm

Bosnia consists of the six provinces, Bihac, Banjaluka, Tuzla, Travnik, Sarajevo, and Mostar, which lie between western Croatia, Dalmatia, Montenegro, and the Slavonian plain. The southernmost province, Mostar, includes, the territory known as Herzegovina, which lies nearest to Montenegro. The Bosnians serve racially as an approach to the nucleus of Dinaric giantism in Montenegro.122 Tuzla, in the northeast, has a mean stature of 171 cm.; Bihac and Banjaluca, in the northwest, of 172 cm.; in Travnik and parts of Mostar it rises to 173 cm., in Sarajevo to 174 cm., and in Herzegovina to 175-176 cm., approaching the Montenegrin level. The mean cephalic index of the Bosnians is over 85; this varies by religions, with the Catholics the most brachycephalic (86), and the Moslems the least (84). The Catholics are likewise the tallest and the lightest skinned; being the oldest population in the region in point of conversion, and the least affected by outside influences, the Catholic element preserves both a pre-Slavic123 and a pre-Turkish racial configuration more completely than do the partisans of Orthodoxy or Islam.

This leads to a few conclusions. Since, Coon, suggests that Catholics of Hercegovina (Hrvati) are the tallest and most brachycephalic, and that we are also the highest percentage of Haplogroup I2a2 in Europe - it infers that there is causality between haplogroup i2a2, height, skull size, and cephalic index. So, now, we can assume that I2a2 is correlated with these three attributes.

What we can't assume is whether the populations in Albania are Haplogroup I2a2 or Haplogroup E1b1b. I would assume they are I2a2, since, consequentially, there are populations of Albanians that are not Brachycephalic and show lower mean cephalic index's than those of Hercegovina's I2a2 populations. And the fact that those populations reside within heavily E1b1b populations would not prove anything, since, of course, there would be a high selectivity of breeding and sub-populations would form to distance themselves from the non I2a2 populations. The haplogroup frequency of Albania with respect to I2a2 and E1b1b is almost equivelent.

So, the matter now rests on whether we can prove whether or not E1b1b and I2a2 are correlated with cephalic index and height. We already proved that I2a2 are associated with cephalic index, height, and cranial size. We have yet to prove that E1b1b is associated with any of these physiological markers.

If you have evidence, please expand upon your assertions.

[Prengu]

I2a2 is most definitely Illyrian.

Illyrians were probably a mixture of I2a2 (mostly) and E1b1b. The Greeks were in contact with a mixture of 50% E1b1b and 50% I2a2 Illyria's. All the Illyrias from Hercegovina, and north, were I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina. This was, with all due probability, a haplogroup I2a2 tribe.

I2a2 i would say Dacian while E-V13 is Illyrian, both subclades in ancient time lived side by side and after slavic invasion I2a2 (VI-VII century) moved to West Balcan while E-V13 had divided into two after arrival of I2a2 (Venecia border with Slovenia has 30-35% E-V13, and others have come down below the mountains).