Brachycephaly

[Prengu]

This proves you have no idea how gene flow and mutation work to produce haplogroups and frequency of genomes / mutation frequency of those haplogroups and distribution of those mutations. It shows complete stupidity to the aforementioned topic and the persistent insistence on this only repeats your own idiocy.

Calm down dude , you have not idea about Anthro-genetic even you using hapgorup "IJ" when there dont exit such haplogroups...There exit I and J but both haplogroups entered in Europe from each others very late different times...read about J haplogroup

 

[Prengu]

There's no evidence of this. The evidence seems to insist that Illyrians were mostly I2a2 (80%) probably, and 20% E1b1b.

There's little to no E1b1b found in Hercegovina, the capital of Illyria - and, as well, in the northwestern dominions of Illyria.

1) Capital of Illyria?...did you read my posts that i writted?...Hercegovina was base of new settles during VII Century...and V-13 owner pushed down to Montains to triangle mountains (Montengro-Albania-Kosovo) and splitted V-13 in two district (notice in North Italy V-13 is present around 25-30%).

2) Most oldest TRMCA of V-13 has found in South Italy (Brindisi town...where lived 3 illyrian tribes) and North Italy...

3) If I2a2-P37 suppose to be illyrian, why this haplogroup is not present among other south europeans when illyrians were neighbors with them? (Italians, Spanish, Basques)?

4) Also R1b is not present among Croatians+Bosnaks (just 1-3%).....while llyrians has surrounded by R1b haplogroup?

5) Read Semir Osmanagic (bosnak arkiologist, who claim Illyrian pyramid in Bosna), which is V-13 owner and in his book claim that E-V13 is illyrian because has found in some illyrian bones in Bosna.

 

[LeBrok]

R1a is Slavic,not I2a2.

R1a is proto Slavic and proto Baltic. For at least 2000 years Slavs in central and east Europe are a mixture of R1a, I2, and some R1b. Now ratio varies on geographical location. With Slavic expansion of around 7 hundreds AD into Balkans, there was some I2 movement too. Now we don't know how much I2 migrated there with R1a but some for sure, even if it was only a back migration.

 

[Sprinkles]

Calm down dude , you have not idea about Anthro-genetic even you using hapgorup "IJ" when there dont exit such haplogroups...There exit I and J but both haplogroups entered in Europe from each others very late different times...read about J haplogroup

Various episodes of population movement have affected southeast Europe, and the role of the Balkans as a longstanding gateway to Europe from the Near East is illustrated by the phylogenetic unification of Hgs I and J by the basal M429 mutation.31 This evidence of common ancestry suggests that ancestral IJ-M429* Y chromosomes probably entered Europe through the Balkan route sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum. They subsequently evolved into Hg J in the Middle East and Hg I in Europe in a typical disjunctive phylogeographic pattern. Such a geographic corridor is likely to have experienced additional subsequent gene flows, including the migration of agricultural colonists from the Middle East. Pottery is a useful proxy for the spread of farming both spatially and temporally. The first appearance of pottery in the Adriatic region was in Corfu at 6500 BC and reached the northern most Adriatic B1000 years later.21 Its dispersal provides a comparative template for spatial and temporal patterns of Y chromosome Hg diversity observed in this area.

Do you understand this?

If not, let me help you. Of course IJ doesn't exist, because it mutated into haplogroup's I and J. This supposes a theory that IJ migrated into the Balkans before the last glacial maximum (which is 20,000 years ago), and it mutated into haplogroup I. This is why we find haplogroup I in Europe. Haplogroup J mutated from haplogroup IJ in asia minor.

Is it difficult for you to understand this?

 

[Sprinkles]

1) Capital of Illyria?...did you read my posts that i writted?...Hercegovina was base of new settles during VII Century...and V-13 owner pushed down to Montains to triangle mountains (Montengro-Albania-Kosovo) and splitted V-13 in two district (notice in North Italy V-13 is present around 25-30%).

2) Most oldest TRMCA of V-13 has found in South Italy (Brindisi town...where lived 3 illyrian tribes) and North Italy...

3) If I2a2-P37 suppose to be illyrian, why this haplogroup is not present among other south europeans when illyrians were neighbors with them? (Italians, Spanish, Basques)?

4) Also R1b is not present among Croatians+Bosnaks (just 1-3%).....while llyrians has surrounded by R1b haplogroup?

5) Read Semir Osmanagic (bosnak arkiologist, who claim Illyrian pyramid in Bosna), which is V-13 owner and in his book claim that E-V13 is illyrian because has found in some illyrian bones in Bosna.

This has no reasoning of genetic origin. It's basically pure fiction.

 

[Joro]

R1a is proto Slavic and proto Baltic. For at least 2000 years Slavs in central and east Europe are a mixture of R1a, I2, and some R1b. Now ratio varies on geographical location. With Slavic expansion of around 7 hundreds AD into Balkans, there was some I2 movement too. Now we don't know how much I2 migrated there with R1a but some for sure, even if it was only a back migration.

They've brought R1a,and maybe some other haplogroups,among others R1b,I2a,neolithic groups,but that was insignificant.

 

[Joro]

4) Also R1b is not present among Croatians+Bosnaks (just 1-3%).....while llyrians has surrounded by R1b haplogroup?

R1b in Croatia overall is 12-13%.
In north you have about 20%,in south it is merely 5-6%.
But in southernmost Dubrovnik area,pretty close to Albania, it rises again above 15%.

 

[Sprinkles]

R1b in Croatia overall is 12-13%.
In north you have about 20%,in south it is merely 5-6%.
But in southernmost Dubrovnik area,pretty close to Albania, it rises again above 15%.

R1a seems correlated with dolichocephaly, so we could infer that Zagreb with it's 20% R1a Y-haplogroup to have more autosomal DNA that confers a dolichocephalic phenotype.

 

[Neander]

I see that only "arguments" which you use are insults toward us.

Insult is not argument.

Tha reality is that I2a2 had its center in dacia, but as we know a lot of Vlachs came to Balkan together with slavs.

As Preng said, I2a2 divided E-V13 in two regions, one in south (Montenegro, Sandzak, Kosovo, Albania, Greece), and the second in the North (Slovenia, Venecia etc). I2a2 is established in between.

 

[Sprinkles]

I see that only "arguments" which you use are insults toward us.

Insult is not argument.

Tha reality is that I2a2 had its center in dacia, but as we know a lot of Vlachs came to Balkan together with slavs.

As Preng said, I2a2 divided E-V13 in two regions, one in south (Montenegro, Sandzak, Kosovo, Albania, Greece), and the second in the North (Slovenia, Venecia etc). I2a2 is established in between.

So, now, besides arguing the point at hand - which I have sufficiently justified, and which, you, have failed to provide any evidence of your hypothesis - you are resorting to a plea of pity for the stupidity you have exhibited in this thread, and, also, in countless others. What you synthesize is fabrication - it has not one basis in reason, understanding of genetics, or any other means by which one is required to establish a debate based on logic. Do you want me to pity you? It's ideal that you pity yourself for the reasoning you have exhibited in this debate, but, alas, I find no such appeal convincing and will not attempt to satisfy your psychic necessities.

You have failed to show any evidence of your hypothesis.

There's evidence that IJ migrated through the Balkans prior to the Last Maximal Glacial.

The frequency of mutations plotted with respect to the most common form of Haplogroup I2a2 shows a clear origin in Hercegovina.

Haplogroup I2a2 is 6,000 years old. 6,000 years ago, Haplogroup I2a2 was in Hercegovina.

I2 and I1 lineages arose from I.

The distribution of Ix shows a clear route north into Scandinavia, and east to Russia.

I existed in the Balkans and evolved into I2a2 - I traveled north and mutated into I1.

Now, please tell me, what are you having trouble understanding?

 

[Joro]

and how did then this 9% of I1 come to Croatia?
In Slovenia I1 is 7%,in Hungary,Bosnia and Albania 4%,Serbia 2%,so all neighbours have less than us,there must be an explanation

 

[Neander]

Now, please tell me, what are you having trouble understanding?

No,no,no, I understand very well, what you say. But it is a fabrication.
IJ may have migrate through the East Europe, specially if they are cromagnons who are believed to have defeated Neandertals. So they did't migrate through Balkan, but through Ukraine.
Even if they migrate through Balkan, that doesnt mean that I2a2 was created here.

The frequency of mutations plotted with respect to the most common form of Haplogroup I2a2 shows a clear origin in Hercegovina.

The frequency of mutations is the beiggest in Ukraine-Moldavia. In another thread, I sent you a book, which is the last study, on which is based and Prengu when said that it came from Ukraine, or Rumania.

Haplogroup I2a2 is 6,000 years old. 6,000 years ago, Haplogroup I2a2 was in Hercegovina.

I2a2 after the last study is only 3.000 years old, so it mast have been created somewhere exist the haplogroup I, and not in the Balkan were I is comprised exclusively of I2a2 and it is an OASE among J2 and E-V13. "A black sheep among whites".
That means somewhere in the 1.000 BC was bornt the first man with I2a2 Y chromosome, and it was somewhere in Moldavia.

The distribution of Ix shows a clear route north into Scandinavia, and east to Russia.

I distribution show clear rout to south. REMEMBER before the Indo-European invasion, in Scandinavia I haplogroup was 100%, and not like is today.
Also you have I2a in Russia, which mutated to I2a2, and then during Slavic invasion, I2a2 came in the Balkan together with Slavs.

 

[Neander]

and how did then this 9% of I1 come to Croatia?
In Slovenia I1 is 7%,in Hungary,Bosnia and Albania 4%,Serbia 2%,so all neighbours have less than us,there must be an explanation

You cannot be sure about percentages.

Th only fact here is that, this haplogroup is low among all Balkans.

But if you test 100 to 300 people among 4 millions, it is very ridicuolous to pretend that you know exactly what is the percentage of Haplogroups.

You have many examples, where in one study the x Haplogroup was in low percentage and in another study the same was in high percentage.

I1, must have came from Goths and other germanic invaders.

 

[Joro]

You cannot be sure about percentages.

Th only fact here is that, this haplogroup is low among all Balkans.

But if you test 100 to 300 people among 4 millions, it is very ridicuolous to pretend that you know exactly what is the percentage of Haplogroups.

You have many examples, where in one study the x Haplogroup was in low percentage and in another study the same was in high percentage.

I1, must have came from Goths and other germanic invaders.

well yeah,but this is what last study shows,and by last definition of I subclades.
so i guess Goths did influence Croatia then,this is nothing new because sources mention them as very strong element in Croatia,and probably montenegro and western part of bosnia as well.
and croatia is not wholly on balkans,so maybe why is there a bit higher

 

[Sprinkles]

No,no,no, I understand very well, what you say. But it is a fabrication.
IJ may have migrate through the East Europe, specially if they are cromagnons who are believed to have defeated Neandertals. So they did't migrate through Balkan, but through Ukraine.
Even if they migrate through Balkan, that doesnt mean that I2a2 was created here.
The frequency of mutations is the beiggest in Ukraine-Moldavia. In another thread, I sent you a book, which is the last study, on which is based and Prengu when said that it came from Ukraine, or Rumania.
I2a2 after the last study is only 3.000 years old, so it mast have been created somewhere exist the haplogroup I, and not in the Balkan were I is comprised exclusively of I2a2 and it is an OASE among J2 and E-V13. "A black sheep among whites".
That means somewhere in the 1.000 BC was bornt the first man with I2a2 Y chromosome, and it was somewhere in Moldavia.
I distribution show clear rout to south. REMEMBER before the Indo-European invasion, in Scandinavia I haplogroup was 100%, and not like is today.
Also you have I2a in Russia, which mutated to I2a2, and then during Slavic invasion, I2a2 came in the Balkan together with Slavs.

The study you claim uses 28 individuals from western europe (not specified from where) and 2 individuals from Moldovia (with haplogroup I-M423) to determine variance of the populaton. If you want to talk about testing 100-400 individuals, well, the study you quote is from 30 individuals to determine variance within a population. It is as if your present and past arguments refute each other, or you don't bother to read what you actually post pertaining to the subject we are discussing.


http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/22/10/1964#TBL1

The highest STR variance of I1b* (xM26) lineages (0.34 to 0.23) is in Bosnians, Czechs and Slovaks, Hungarians, Herzegovinians, and Serbians (fig. 3B and D). In both cases, when all studied SEE populations are considered together and upon exclusion of Kosovar Albanians and Macedonian Romani, I1b* (xM26) frequency and variance do not show significant correlations with geography (table 2). Moreover, I1b* (xM26) phylogenetic network (fig. 8A) shows high haplotype diversity and sharing of founder haplotype among investigated populations. In fact, homogenous distribution of elevated frequency accompanied with high diversity of I1b* (xM26) lineages among different SEE populations may be viewed as a genetic signature of their common paternal history over a long period of time. Rootsi et al. (2004) estimated that I1b* (xM26) diverged from I* at 10.7 ± 4.8 kilo years ago (KYA), possibly relating to the post–Younger Dryas (YD) climate amelioration in Europe, and that I1b* (xM26) expansion occurred around the early Holocene at 7.6 ± 2.7 KYA. Considering only our SEE sample, the coalescent estimate of I1b* (xM26) is substantially older (11.1 ± 4.8 KYA). This finding suggests that the I1b* (xM26) lineages might have expanded from SEE to central, eastern, and southern Europe, presumably not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic.

Clearly, showing no variance in Moldovia (since your study used 2 subjects to verify it claims) and abundant variation in Central Europe, with the presumed origin in The Balkans.

Also, the hypothesis of the Illyrian E1b1b does not seem compelling based on variance and frequency of the haplogroup and the genetic flow of the haplogroup through geographic areas of the Balkans. With all due consideration, there is no evidence to support it.

A lower frequency of E3b1 significantly distinguishes populations of the Adriatic-Dinaric complex, i.e., mainland Croatians, Bosnians, and Herzegovinians (7.9%; 95% CI 0.054–0.114), from their neighboring populations of the Vardar-Morava-Danube river system, i.e., Serbians and Macedonians (21.9%; 95% CI 0.166–0.283). These observations hint a mosaic of different E3b1 dispersal modes over a short geographic distance and point to the Vardar-Morava-Danube river system as one of major routes for E3b1, in fact E3b1, expansion from south and southeastern to continental Europe. In fact, dispersals of farmers throughout the Vardar-Morava-Danube catchments basin are also evidenced in the archaeological record (Tringham 2000).

 

[Neander]

The greater diversity of I2a2 is in Ukraine.

Look at the PAGE 6

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...R1SC0s&sig=AHIEtbRiRVlhCxwqwaVWLF2L1YU7G0uW2Q

 

[Sprinkles]

The greater diversity of I2a2 is in Ukraine.

Look at the PAGE 6

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...R1SC0s&sig=AHIEtbRiRVlhCxwqwaVWLF2L1YU7G0uW2Q

The study is absurd and uses one focal point satellite for the whole of basically eastern Europe. The study I posted uses more satellites within the vicinity of Ukraine / Moldovia and uses a number of satellites within the vicinity of the Balkans.

The study also added in genomic research that is not scientific and is databased by genetic analysis that is monetarily funded. This is not a scientific article and uses means that are prone to erroneous conclusions.

I don't hold any credibility to consider any reliability for what you have shown. Further, there is information contradicting it, which does not use information that has qualitative bias. The study has bias, is poor and unreliable.

 

[Joro]

Fellow Albanians, is there any cephalic index study for Modern Albanians?
i only found this for Kosovars which shows average CI for them is some 84.2 :
http://www.scielo.cl/pdf/ijmorphol/v26n4/art24.pdf

 

[MOESAN]

the regions of maximum E-V13 in Albania are the most mesocehpalic compared to others - the N-E Ghegs was IC 83 when the S Tosques was IC 87 to 89 - and the maximum is in Kosovo (IC? I have not it but I believe it was 83 or somtehing very close - an do not forget 'alpine' types seam to be frequent in Tosques (more than 'dinaric') - in W Europe, the more 'alpine' looking people are in zones of strong Y R1b presence (U152 P310 evolved in highlands Alps) -
trying to attach bracycephaly to Y DNA is tempting (I do so) but the mothers had their word to say in case of drift for Y DNA)

 

[Templar]

Stolac, Hercegovina

Hehe my family bloodline is from there. The inhabitants of Stolac are the most Cro-Magnon people in the world.