Brachycephaly

[Sprinkles]

I agree I2a2 is not Illyrian,it is native west Balkan,possibly Vlach,because secondary maximum is in Romanian Moldova(+40%).
However,i think what Sprinkles tries to say it may be Illyrian in sense Illyrians assimilated the I2a2 people(like today's Slavs did).

I found some study on the net which shows Kosovars have cephalic index of 83,5.

I2a2 is most definitely Illyrian.

Illyrians were probably a mixture of I2a2 (mostly) and E1b1b. The Greeks were in contact with a mixture of 50% E1b1b and 50% I2a2 Illyria's. All the Illyrias from Hercegovina, and north, were I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina. This was, with all due probability, a haplogroup I2a2 tribe.

 

[Joro]

Here we have a furious argue were Illyrians I2a2 or E1b1b,
and I say Illyrians were R1b

 

[Joro]

I don't believe, because North Albanians and Kosovo Albanians have the same ancestry, even before few generations.

Myself , I have some above 90.

That's what researches say.
I was also shocked to found out that Zagreb(1/4 of Croatian population) is mostly dolicephalic.

 

[Sprinkles]

http://www.friendsofsabbath.org/Further_Research/e-books/Races of Europe - C Coon/chapter-XII12.htm

Bosnia consists of the six provinces, Bihac, Banjaluka, Tuzla, Travnik, Sarajevo, and Mostar, which lie between western Croatia, Dalmatia, Montenegro, and the Slavonian plain. The southernmost province, Mostar, includes, the territory known as Herzegovina, which lies nearest to Montenegro. The Bosnians serve racially as an approach to the nucleus of Dinaric giantism in Montenegro.122 Tuzla, in the northeast, has a mean stature of 171 cm.; Bihac and Banjaluca, in the northwest, of 172 cm.; in Travnik and parts of Mostar it rises to 173 cm., in Sarajevo to 174 cm., and in Herzegovina to 175-176 cm., approaching the Montenegrin level. The mean cephalic index of the Bosnians is over 85; this varies by religions, with the Catholics the most brachycephalic (86), and the Moslems the least (84). The Catholics are likewise the tallest and the lightest skinned; being the oldest population in the region in point of conversion, and the least affected by outside influences, the Catholic element preserves both a pre-Slavic123 and a pre-Turkish racial configuration more completely than do the partisans of Orthodoxy or Islam.

This leads to a few conclusions. Since, Coon, suggests that Catholics of Hercegovina (Hrvati) are the tallest and most brachycephalic, and that we are also the highest percentage of Haplogroup I2a2 in Europe - it infers that there is causality between haplogroup i2a2, height, skull size, and cephalic index. So, now, we can assume that I2a2 is correlated with these three attributes.

What we can't assume is whether the populations in Albania are Haplogroup I2a2 or Haplogroup E1b1b. I would assume they are I2a2, since, consequentially, there are populations of Albanians that are not Brachycephalic and show lower mean cephalic index's than those of Hercegovina's I2a2 populations. And the fact that those populations reside within heavily E1b1b populations would not prove anything, since, of course, there would be a high selectivity of breeding and sub-populations would form to distance themselves from the non I2a2 populations. The haplogroup frequency of Albania with respect to I2a2 and E1b1b is almost equivelent.

So, the matter now rests on whether we can prove whether or not E1b1b and I2a2 are correlated with cephalic index and height. We already proved that I2a2 are associated with cephalic index, height, and cranial size. We have yet to prove that E1b1b is associated with any of these physiological markers.

If you have evidence, please expand upon your assertions.

 

[Prengu]

I2a2 is most definitely Illyrian.

Illyrians were probably a mixture of I2a2 (mostly) and E1b1b. The Greeks were in contact with a mixture of 50% E1b1b and 50% I2a2 Illyria's. All the Illyrias from Hercegovina, and north, were I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina. This was, with all due probability, a haplogroup I2a2 tribe.

I2a2 i would say Dacian while E-V13 is Illyrian, both subclades in ancient time lived side by side and after slavic invasion I2a2 (VI-VII century) moved to West Balcan while E-V13 had divided into two after arrival of I2a2 (Venecia border with Slovenia has 30-35% E-V13, and others have come down below the mountains).

 

[Joro]

I2a2 i would say Dacian while E-V13 is Illyrian, both subclades in ancient time lived side by side and after slavic invasion I2a2 (VI-VII century) moved to West Balcan while E-V13 had divided into two after arrival of I2a2 (Venecia border with Slovenia has 30-35% E-V13, and others have come down below the mountains).

e1b is neolithic also

 

[Sprinkles]

I2a2 i would say Dacian while E-V13 is Illyrian, both subclades in ancient time lived side by side and after slavic invasion I2a2 (VI-VII century) moved to West Balcan while E-V13 had divided into two after arrival of I2a2 (Venecia border with Slovenia has 30-35% E-V13, and others have come down below the mountains).

This is wrong.

Haplogroup IJ-M429 migrated to Europe 20,000 years ago through the Balkans.

This evidence of common ancestry suggests that ancestral IJ-M429* Y chromosomes probably entered Europe through the Balkan route sometime before the Last Glacial Maximum. They subsequently evolved into Hg J in the Middle East and Hg I in Europe in a typical disjunctive phylogeographic pattern.

 

[Neander]

Sprinkles, you must divide subclades and talk for eachother independently.

Where is IJ in the Balkan? Nowhere! Only subclade in the Balkan is I2a2, other may be in rare cases.

So it is newcomer. And why dalmatians are more brachy and taller, beacsue they were somewhere in Romania, Moldavia or Ukraine, where must have been dinaric, and we still today find dinaric there.

 

[Sprinkles]

Sprinkles, you must divide subclades and talk for eachother independently.

Where is IJ in the Balkan? Nowhere! Only subclade in the Balkan is I2a2, other may be in rare cases.

So it is newcomer. And why dalmatians are more brachy and taller, beacsue they were somewhere in Romania, Moldavia or Ukraine, where must have been dinaric, and we still today find dinaric there.

IJ migrated to the Balkans 20,000 years ago(last glacial maximum) prior to its split into I. I don't know what more I can say, and how much more information you can fabricate. Unless you read what you, yourself, have posted - which disputes everything you say - you'll fabricate until you either understand or until your motive to fabricate ceases to exist. I believe that neither will occur.

IJ was in the Balkans 20,000 years ago. I originated in the Dinaric Alps, and henceforth spread through Europe.

 

[Joro]

Croatia also has solid amount of I1 according to last research(9%).
Studies for islands Krk and Brač show they possibly have 17-18% I1.
Maybe this could support IJ theory?

 

[Prengu]

e1b is neolithic also

In last study found that is Mesolithic.

This is wrong.

Haplogroup IJ-M429 migrated to Europe 20,000 years ago through the Balkans.

I2a2-P37 (which mostly are south slavs) according TMCRA is 3000 years old while EV-13 is 13000-15000 years

and Re-read my post, i didnt say that I2a2 came from "outside of Europe" but from Central Europe (also North Balcan) they have been invaded from R1a element there.

 

[Sprinkles]

In last study found that is Mesolithic.



I2a2-P37 (which mostly are south slavs) according TMCRA is 3000 years old while EV-13 is 13000-15000 years

and Re-read my post, i didnt say that I2a2 came from "outside of Europe" but from Central Europe (also North Balcan) they have been invaded from R1a element there.

Not sure what you're trying to prove by claiming I2a2-P37.2 is 3000 years old and EV-13 is 13000 years old. What is the significance of the claim relating to the origin of haplogroup I being in the Balkans. You do understand that the Y chromosome mutates, don't you?

The subclade divergence for P37.2 occurred 10.7±4.8 kya (Rootsi 2004). The age of YSTR variation for the P37.2 subclade is 8.0±4.0 kya (Rootsi 2004). The age of YSTR variation for the M423 subclade is 8.8±3.6 kya (Underhill 2007). Pericic places its expansion to have occurred "not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic” (Pericic 2005).

Here we see that the divergence is 10,700 years ago and that the subclade is 8,000 years old. Another error, that you made claim to, without showing any proof of.

I don't see the reason within your claim. Are you claiming because I2a2 is 8,000 years old that Haplogroup IJ did not enter Europe through the Balkans?

And are you further claiming that 8,000 years ago the migration of haplogroup I was from central europe to the balkans, where we found IJ much before we found IJ in central europe? So, I evolved in central europe (where the frequency does not show anything near the level of Hercegovina) and somehow, even though the IJ was in the Balkans prior to it being in Central Europe, and the fact that the frequency is much higher in Hercegovina and shows a pattern of distribution that would indicate that the origin of I is from Hercegovina - that the origin of I is from central Europe?

What are you talking about? Please refine your argument so I can reply most appropriately.

 

[Neander]

Not sure what you're trying to prove by claiming I2a2-P37.2 is 3000 years old and EV-13 is 13000 years old.

Older subclades are in Scandinavia, the younger more in the south.

I1 has its epicenter in Scandinavia. Younger subclade I2 is found out of Scandinavia, in continetal Europe.

I2a has its center in Germany.

I2a2 is a subclade of this "Germany subclade".

We se clearly that haplogroup I invaded gradually from North to south.

As for, subclades which are found in Sardinia and West Europe it must be invasion of Bell Beaker, because it is found onlly there, but Bell Beakers did'nt came to Dalmatia, never.

 

[Neander]

It is not unbelieveable that one population can drive away another.

Ethnic cleansing is something that can happen. We have an example of South Serbia which was populated by albanians until 1878, and in that year Serbs made ethnic cleansing, and today you cennot find any albanian there, except some boundary places with Kosovo.

The same happens to our ancestors from Jutbina and Klladusha. I myself belong to those clans who fought for a long time against croatians, and then lost war and came to live with their brothers in today Albania.

We have traditions which tell these histories.

 

[Prengu]

Not sure what you're trying to prove by claiming I2a2-P37.2 is 3000 years old and EV-13 is 13000 years old. What is the significance of the claim relating to the origin of haplogroup I being in the Balkans. You do understand that the Y chromosome mutates, don't you?




Here we see that the divergence is 10,700 years ago and that the subclade is 8,000 years old. Another error, that you made claim to, without showing any proof of.

I don't see the reason within your claim. Are you claiming because I2a2 is 8,000 years old that Haplogroup IJ did not enter Europe through the Balkans?

And are you further claiming that 8,000 years ago the migration of haplogroup I was from central europe to the balkans, where we found IJ much before we found IJ in central europe? So, I evolved in central europe (where the frequency does not show anything near the level of Hercegovina) and somehow, even though the IJ was in the Balkans prior to it being in Central Europe, and the fact that the frequency is much higher in Hercegovina and shows a pattern of distribution that would indicate that the origin of I is from Hercegovina - that the origin of I is from central Europe?

What are you talking about? Please refine your argument so I can reply most appropriately.

You are using old articles (from wikipedia 2004), like i said accroing TMRCA this subclades created 3000 years ago (so Disputed from I2a2) in Central Europe....you can find alot articles in others forum...(dna-forum ect)

What are you talking about? Please refine your argument so I can reply most appropriately.

No i just said above, that I2a2-P37 (mostly) camed in balcan during VII Century from North Balcan/Central Europe which before that some latinized and slavnized....do you understand point?

 

[Prengu]

I2a2 is most definitely Illyrian.

Illyrians were probably a mixture of I2a2 (mostly) and E1b1b. The Greeks were in contact with a mixture of 50% E1b1b and 50% I2a2 Illyria's. All the Illyrias from Hercegovina, and north, were I2a2. The cultural capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina. This was, with all due probability, a haplogroup I2a2 tribe.

Illyrians (also thracians) were mostly E-V13 along J2e-M102 also R1b....so those subclades were present before existed "ethnom" illyrian, greek or whatever in Balcan.

Ancient greeks were mostly J2b-M12 (which has found high in South Italy, East Bulgaria and West Turkey) also R1b was present too.

 

[Sprinkles]

Older subclades are in Scandinavia, the younger more in the south.
I1 has its epicenter in Scandinavia. Younger subclade I2 is found out of Scandinavia, in continetal Europe.
I2a has its center in Germany.
I2a2 is a subclade of this "Germany subclade".
We se clearly that haplogroup I invaded gradually from North to south.
As for, subclades which are found in Sardinia and West Europe it must be invasion of Bell Beaker, because it is found onlly there, but Bell Beakers did'nt came to Dalmatia, never.

It doesn't matter what is older and what is younger. Younger only means the haplogroup mutated and evolved. If you want to reference where the origin of the haplogroup was you need evidence to suggest a break from IJ. Now you assume the break from IJ had occurred in Scandinavia, which with evidence we have, that IJ migrated to Europe through Balkans in the last glacial maximum, we assume that IJ then transcended Europe into Scandinavia and assumed I there - and thus spread to Europe.

This argument is not compelling, and has no evidence to presume it. If it is known that IJ transcended Europe through the Balkans and haplogroup I is found at the highest concentration in Europe in Hercegovina, then it is intuitive that I originated in Hercegovina and spread from there. Even if you do not assume this, you assume that IJ transversed from Hercegovina to Scandanavia and two separate clusters of I formed, both descended from IJ. This doesn't make much sense either.

If the evidence suggests that IJ transversed from Asia minor to Europe through the Balkans, and the Balkans have the highest percent of I in Europe, it is intuitive to assume that I evolved in Hercegovina and facilitated gene flow to other parts of Europe.

What we also can deduce from this is that the Y chromosome mutates over time, and the age of the current haplogroup has no intrinsic meaning on the time the two haplogroups diverged from each other.

Per: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

 

[Sprinkles]

You are using old articles (from wikipedia 2004), like i said accroing TMRCA this subclades created 3000 years ago (so Disputed from I2a2) in Central Europe....you can find alot articles in others forum...(dna-forum ect)




No i just said above, that I2a2-P37 (mostly) camed in balcan during VII Century from North Balcan/Central Europe which before that some latinized and slavnized....do you understand point?

This proves you have no idea how gene flow and mutation work to produce haplogroups and frequency of genomes / mutation frequency of those haplogroups and distribution of those mutations. It shows complete stupidity to the aforementioned topic and the persistent insistence on this only repeats your own idiocy.

 

[Sprinkles]

Illyrians (also thracians) were mostly E-V13 along J2e-M102 also R1b....so those subclades were present before existed "ethnom" illyrian, greek or whatever in Balcan.

Ancient greeks were mostly J2b-M12 (which has found high in South Italy, East Bulgaria and West Turkey) also R1b was present too.

There's no evidence of this. The evidence seems to insist that Illyrians were mostly I2a2 (80%) probably, and 20% E1b1b.

There's little to no E1b1b found in Hercegovina, the capital of Illyria - and, as well, in the northwestern dominions of Illyria.

 

[Sprinkles]

It is not unbelieveable that one population can drive away another.

Ethnic cleansing is something that can happen. We have an example of South Serbia which was populated by albanians until 1878, and in that year Serbs made ethnic cleansing, and today you cennot find any albanian there, except some boundary places with Kosovo.

The same happens to our ancestors from Jutbina and Klladusha. I myself belong to those clans who fought for a long time against croatians, and then lost war and came to live with their brothers in today Albania.

We have traditions which tell these histories.

You apparently have an elementary knowledge evolutionary genetics.