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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    Come on; don't lie to yourself. You mentioned it several times.
    The easier it is to find, so cite me. Otherwise you look like a liar, not me.

    Even if you are wrong, what does it matter? IQ tests don't really tell you much about intelligence. While it may be true that intelligence is genetic/biological; the true strength in mastering IQ tests is intellectual knowledge.

    For example; just because Bosnians have an average IQ score of 89 doesn't make them any more stupid. And sometimes they often come out with contradictory scores; in between two distinct tests. This is why I think most IQ tests are nonsense. Their below average IQ is likely more correlated with a lack of education and development in their country/community.
    I have a feeling that your score was low on IQ test. You are working hard to discredit it then.

    People don't believe in God; for the simple reason that they are told there is an invisible man in the sky. They believe in God because it brings them a sense of security.
    This can explain some cases, but not all. There are people who believe in UFO, others believe in demons. Sense of security can't explain these phenomenon, therefore there got to be something more to it.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate the present, and demonize the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    The easier it is to find, so cite me. Otherwise you look like a liar, not me.


    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    There is also obviously genetic factor, the nature, that gives us the base for our intelligence, the good memory, brain speed, brain architecture, which affects: imagination, pattern recognition, statistical thinking, concentration, etc.

    I have a feeling that your score was low on IQ test. You are working hard to discredit it then.
    No ... that's a really juvenile argument. lol !

    I have actually taken 3 official tests in my life time; and I have scored as low as 86 on one of them. But on the other two tests I have scored above average at 117 and even scored 146 before, which I believe is well above average, almost genius level. I don't believe that they are an effective measure of intelligence at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post


    Originally Posted by Melancon

    You think IQ tests measure biological intelligence; not acquired intelligence.



    Originally Posted by LeBrok
    There is also obviously genetic factor, the nature, that gives us the base for our intelligence, the good memory, brain speed, brain architecture, which affects: imagination, pattern recognition, statistical thinking, concentration, etc..
    Do you know what BASE means? Perhaps you're using your definition of BASE, which means ALL intelligence.

    You were supposed to cite me saying that there is no environmental/natured/acquired intelligence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Do you know what BASE means? Perhaps you're using your definition of BASE, which means ALL intelligence.

    You were supposed to cite me saying that there is no environmental/natured/acquired intelligence.
    Well then you are right on that part. But it still does not explain my point: IQ tests are often unreliable and fluctuate; and are not an accurate indicator of intelligence.


    I don't believe there is any correlation with intelligence and believing in religion. It matters not if you are religious like a Christian or Muslim; or even an Atheist. There is no difference. The explanation for why people whom are Religious score lower on IQ tests; is because they are brought up to think a certain way. Not in the same way as a secular student for example; who may obviously be more intellectual and study intellectual matters. I know this topic was discussed in another thread posted by Maciamo; but I feel I had to give my own analysis/explanation for that, here.

    Of course there are mentally retarded people who score very low. They are not high functioning humans so they have a harder time accumulating intellect.

    A Bosnian Muslim or an Orthodox Serb or an Atheist person can be as intelligent/high functioning as everyone else. It only means that one of the three peoples' beliefs are right.

    I have even seen many documentaries of Autistic children who have scored below average intelligence; but have impressive abilities such as excelling in Mathematics or painting highly detailed pictures.

    Most of this all goes back to Psychoanalysis; which was the precursor to Psychology. Philosophers such as Friedrich Nietzsche or Sigmund Freud tried to determine the ultimate driving force behind human beings and human nature. Personally I am more in accord with Nietzsche's views of psychoanalysis; rather than Freud's. But Modern psychology takes from Sigmund Freud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    No ... that's a really juvenile argument. lol !

    I have actually taken 3 official tests in my life time; and I have scored as low as 86 on one of them. But on the other two tests I have scored above average at 117 and even scored 146 before, which I believe is well above average, almost genius level. I don't believe that they are an effective measure of intelligence at all.
    I think it's highly unlikely that you would have such a huge variation if you took one of the IQ tests used by psychologists (Standard Binet, Weschler Adult Intelligence Scale, etc) three different times unless there was some significant intervening event such as a brain injury between tests. Of course there are "IQ tests" you can take online that are very unreliable, which could explain such a variance. Valid IQ tests that are properly administered by psychologists are a very reliable way to measure intelligence (although they aren't intended to measure other things, such as physical skills or ability to read social cues).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    I think it's highly unlikely that you would have such a huge variation if you took one of the IQ tests used by psychologists (Standard Binet, Weschler Adult Intelligence Scale, etc) three different times unless there was some significant intervening event such as a brain injury between tests. Of course there are "IQ tests" you can take online that are very unreliable, which could explain such a variance. Valid IQ tests that are properly administered by psychologists are a very reliable way to measure intelligence (although they aren't intended to measure other things, such as physical skills or ability to read social cues).
    Taken them in school twice; and then at a Psychologist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post


    .....................


    Most of this all goes back to Psychoanalysis; which was the precursor to Psychology. Philosophers such as Friedrich Nietzsche or Sigmund Freud tried to determine the ultimate driving force behind human beings and human nature. Personally I am more in accord with Nietzsche's views of psychoanalysis; rather than Freud's. But Modern psychology takes from Sigmund Freud.
    No. Modern psychology has existed as a scholarly discipline in Europe since the 17th century. Freud was influenced by Nietzche and Schopenhaur but he was not a philosopher. He was a medical doctor who was interested in applying psychological methods to the subconscious. And Nietzche died in 1900 before Freud became well known and before the term "psychoanalysis" came into vogue.

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    Religious people are often poor people, hence religious people have a lower mean IQ.

    Jews are an exception.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aberdeen View Post
    No. Modern psychology has existed as a scholarly discipline in Europe since the 17th century. Freud was influenced by Nietzche and Schopenhaur but he was not a philosopher. He was a medical doctor who was interested in applying psychological methods to the subconscious. And Nietzche died in 1900 before Freud became well known and before the term "psychoanalysis" came into vogue.
    I'm not talking about the 17th century here ... I'm talking about the 20th and 21st centuries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by giuseppe rossi View Post
    Religious people are often poor people, hence religious people have a lower mean IQ.

    Jews are an exception.
    Most Jews I came across were very secular, I think ultra nationalists are vociferous but a small minority. There are different grades of religiousness like in any religion. As an atheist I am free to think that religion is only about some kind of psyche conveniently approved by a higher supernatural authority for a conscious / subconscious reason to drive a particular political motive

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Melancon View Post
    I'm not talking about the 17th century here ... I'm talking about the 20th and 21st centuries.
    I was pointing out that you are incorrect in saying that modern psychology is an outgrowth of psychoanalysis and that it "takes from" psychoanalysis. Psychoanalysis is an outgrowth of psychology. Most psychologists are either very dubious of psychoanalysis or are inclined to use Jungian rather than Freudian ideas. Freudianism has faded in popularity because many people in the mental health field don't think it's useful and see Freud's main importance as being the precursor of Carl Jung. Oddly enough, some psychiatrists do use the Freudian method to help mentally ill people deal with emotional problems that are triggers for their mental illness or that result from mental illness. But most psychologists think psychiatrists should stick to psychiatry and leave psychology to psychologists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maleth View Post
    Most Jews I came across were very secular, I think ultra nationalists are vociferous but a small minority. There are different grades of religiousness like in any religion. As an atheist I am free to think that religion is only about some kind of psyche conveniently approved by a higher supernatural authority for a conscious / subconscious reason to drive a particular political motive
    I think most of them are secular. The reason we see mostly the religious Jews because their dress traditionally and they stand out in the crowd. Most secular Jews can't be recognized in public. They dress and behave like any other ordinary citizen.

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    Absolutely Ionia.

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    Smart ancient people

    The article is from Archaeology Magazine:
    http://www.archaeology.org/news/4373...traca-literacy

    "TEL AVIV, ISRAEL—Israel Finkelstein, Arie Shaus, and Shira Faigenbaum-Golovin of Tel Aviv University used computer programs to scan and analyze the handwriting on 16 ostracons dating to the seventh century B.C. All of the inscriptions were unearthed at the site of Arad, a frontier fort, and had been made within a span of a few months. The analysis suggests that at least six different people, ranging in rank from the commander of the fort down to the deputy quartermaster, had written these texts. All of the writers used proper spelling and syntax. Similar ostracons have been found at other border forts, suggesting that writing was widespread, at least within the Judahite army. Finkelstein thinks the ancient kingdom of Judah may have had an educational system, since literacy was not limited to the elite. “This is really quite amazing, that in a remote place like this, there was more than one person, several people, who could write,” he told Live Science. Finkelstein also claims that if literacy were widespread at the time, it would support the idea that portions of the Bible could have been compiled before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians. "

    Everything I was taught did indeed posit that the oldest parts of the Bible, Deuteronomy etc. were written in Babylon. The idea that parts of it could have been written before the exile in Jerusalem itself was the decidedly minority view. I'm not sure these results are proof that happened, but it is indeed another part of the puzzle.

    See:
    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeology/1.713885


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    Hello everybody!

    .....
    Last edited by Sakattack; 28-05-16 at 00:42.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sakattack View Post
    Hello everybody!

    I've found out the existence of a community like this couple of weeks ago and was browsing though the different threads and topics. Very interesting indeed! I am no linguist, neither genecist or scientist, just a history/science/languages "lover" with a recent interest on genetics.
    Welcome to Eupedia Sakattack.

    I don't know how common is to dig out topics and add anything to discussions that look "closed", but I wanted to share something concerning the "smartness" of the Ancient Greeks, which I find that can make some sense. BTW, is my first post, hope that you will find it interesting. :)

    A high school teacher, philologue himself, Panagiotis Mitropetros, with some descent research and publishing, states the following:

    "All the ancient pre-Greek civilizations (such as Egyptians, Babylonians, Hettites, Sumerians etc) had a vast amount of empirical knowledge and of course high levels of - what we call - IQ. What actually detered them of reaching the high standards of the - subsequant - Greeks, was the lack of definition, generalisation, rule and norm of those huge amount of info in order to achieve the transition from the empirical to theoretical; to create models and patterns. This is actually the difference between science and the simple gathering of knowledge.

    This took place in the beginning of the 6th cetury BC, at the shores of the Greek colonies (Magna Grecia, shores of Macedonia, East Aegean Islands and Asia Minor) is consired as big step forward and eventually marks the 1st Scientific Revolution*.

    All these cool Presocratic guys (Leucippus, Democritus, Thales, Empedocles etc) took advantage of some social and political conditions of their places and times in order to find themselves in this revolution. In terms of politics, these conditions where not ideal during the era of the Pharaos for example or under a powerful King; our guys needed some freedom to express themselves, to question stuff and to develop their findings. That's why place matters and all these great ideas started evolving at the circumferences of the Greek world and not in the metrοpolises of that time, because even if Athens, Sparta or Thebes were not under the rule of an Emperor, let's say, they had strong aristocracy who would not welcome any new or radical idea. But in Clazomenea, in Ephesus, in Miletus, in Abdera, in Crotone, in Taranto etc people were enjoying a much tolerant regime and could formulate easier heretic opinions and challenge the 'authorities', by the evidential procedure that they were following.

    Therefore, this huge bomb exploded there, at that time, (societies where some how ready and the knowledge was adequate enough, even some centuries ago, also among people from other civilazations as mentioned above) and not anywhere else in the Ancient World.

    So, till know, we have:

    1. Knowledge
    2. Ideal political and social enviroment
    3. Evidentian procedure


    But were these enough for the bomb to explode? Looks like we need some other stuff, and these had been found in language.

    Briefly:

    1. The article.

    In Homer for instance, we don't find articles. He just sees and points. This "invention", is very crucial in order to develop critical thinking, because it gives you the ability to think of something (whatever that is) which is not present. Whidthens your mind.

    2. The creation of the abstract nouns.

    Those Presocratic cool kids where the first to use terms such as "vision, braveness, justice". Till then, we could say that someone is brave but not that he possesses braveness. These nouns were just not there and their invention is also a great thing, even though it does not sounds so.

    3. Ratio.

    It does not sound as a language thing, but in fact it is. A book can be bigger than another one. This was known. But there was no word for a double-sized one. When these linguistic terms had been defined, the whole scientific and pneumatic procedure went many steps further. Even the reasoning and the cogitations of Aristotle let's say, have their roots on that linguistic invention. Anaximander, thanks bro!"

    Well, I am completely fond of his opinions.

    So there was not only a matter of how smart they were. They took advantage of these political and social situations and were free to practice whatever they had in their - smart enough - mind. One thing lead to another, Socrates, Aristotle etc followed the path and here we are now.



    * Accorind to him, the 2nd Scientific Revolution was actually the Industrial one (more precise the knowledge created in order to get there) and the 3rd happened in the end of the 19th and the 20th century, with Einstein (ToR) but also later with the Quantum Theory and the Theory of Chaos.
    Very interesting. He sees the civilisational progress as a form of strict organized systems, and sees these systems as essential to the progress. This compartmentalization and organization being the driving force of free thinking, invention and creation.
    I agree that having well defined educational and political systems is best vehicle to achieve fast progress, or at least faster progress than the others have. However, I'm not sure if these "well oiled" systems are so essential to existence the basic skills of creativity, logic, science, technology, etc. The wheel, pot or a metal knife was invented and widely implemented without the help of any social or political system. Though systems might be essential for public acceptance of new radical ideas and producing ideas in volumes, like a good education system and inspiring teachers would.

    In my mind all this ancient Greek success was more "organic" and evolutionary than sudden success of good systems. First of all Panagiotis ignores most important factor of their success, the good economy. The issue on time in modern Greece, I would say. Good economy stands behind full bellies of citizens, therefore people being in better mood, open mind and tolerant, and fewer revolts and sensless killings. Likewise good economy produces better health, fewer mortality of kids, therefore fast growing populations, more hands to work, and heads to invent, create, learn and teach. Important, because knowledge has strong cumulative effect. There are plenty of examples from the past and not only for Greece, of economic well being dictating creativity, progress and prosperity, .
    Greek and later Roman prosperity starts right after Bronze Age Collapse/Dark Ages. Just recently we learned that there was sharp global cooling for few decades leading to Bronze Age Collapse. Let's keep in mind that ancient economy was based mainly in agriculture. 80-90% people worked on farms. When food production was cut in half due to colder or drier weather and many people died, especially in Cities. Mind you that the cities harbored schools, teachers, philosophers, actors, and many vital trades. City was gone and so was most of accumulated knowledge.
    In Medieval times we had another episode of cooling, failed crops, leading to Dark Ages and lost of knowledge. In warmer Middle Ages we see growing prosperity in Europe culminating in Renaissance. Knowledge flourishes, beautiful grandiose projects were built, and humanity comes to forefront of education with new radical ideas. This process is somewhat halted by little Ice Age of 17-18 century, though we are saved from another dark ages this time (Why, could be a good subject for future discussion). 20th century (warming trend) brings the biggest prosperity for all, at least in Western World. This new prosperity brings good paying jobs to all men and women, collapse of old empires, democratisation, liberalization, technical and scientific revolution, tolerant societies and many radical ideas in many fields.
    Summarizing, I really believe, that economy is the base for our social, educational and even political success. Without good economy, or economy at all, our life collapses to pretty much a cave or dirt house settings and end of civilization. Of course the other social systems are important too, giving the effect of feedback loop to economy for betterment of all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    ...The main reason Europe fell unto the Dark Ages is Christianity. The Dark Ages didn't start after the fall of the Roman Empire, but in the 4th century when Christianity became the state religion. The Byzantines remained independent for a thousand years after the fall of Rome, but were just a bleak shadow of the pre-Christian Roman Empire.

    Christianity made people wait for a better after-life paradise instead of trying to improve society. It strongly discouraged sciences, innovations and any philosophical questioning of how Nature works....It was like a virus taking over a healthy body and turning it into a zombie.

    Europe managed to extricate itself from the grip of the Church little by little from the 15th to the 18th century. Once educated people stopped being Christian a new era of progress was born, known as the Enlightenment....

    People have been smart for thousands of years. It's just that they are not always free to use their potential because of oppressive religions. The two most intellectually oppressive religions in history are Christianity and Islam.
    To be clear, I think the major issue wasn't religion (or even Christianity) per se, but organized, state-sponsored religion in which dissident thought was discouraged. There have been plenty of great scientists and other thinkers who were strong believers. Isaac Newton is one of the famous ones. His beliefs may have been slightly less orthodox than the powers might be might have wanted, but he was clearly no atheist or even an agnostic. In fact, half of his research (the half other than his groundbreaking math and physics research) is Biblical hermeneutics and occultic research. Charles Darwin, in his Origin of Species, claims to be a believer in a god, so at most he could be described as unorthodox or a heretic (if that) and certainly not as someone who was trying to push an atheistic world view.

    We should also consider the great contributions of Muslim mathematicians to our body of knowledge. Many of our most important mathematical concepts like algebra (al-jabr) come from an Islamic milieu.

    I'm not trying to claim that religion is necessary for science - there are plenty of non-believing scientists like Stephen Hawking.

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