Identifying the original Indo-European mtDNA from isolated settlements

Maciamo in my opinion you should make a thread about the original mtDNA haplogroups of R1* people.
My bet would be something like rare lineages such as X,I,W, or N1a/N1b.
All the mtDNA R descended haplos such as H,U,K,JT or V seem to have a better correlation with Y-DNA F*,IJ* or even G*(or H* for that matter) and were picked up by expanding PIE people relatively recently during their Bronze/Iron Age expansion throughout Central Asia, the Middle East, Anatolia and of course Europe.
 
A new paper by Derenko et al. (Dec. 2014) analyses the deep mtDNA subclades of modern Siberians, and notably the Altaians, who have strong links to the Indo-Europeans (high R1a and R1b). This kind of study is invaluable as it makes it possible to estimate what were the original maternal lineages of the Early Bronze Age Indo-Europeans without testing ancient DNA samples.

In total, Derenko and colleagues have tested 5568 Siberian samples divided in seven regions (!), although this study only looks into 166 new complete mitochondrial DNA sequences.

The haplogroups identified fit into two groups: European and West Asian, confirming that the Proto-Indo-Europeans emerged from the merger of indigenous Eastern European tribes (R1a) with another population from the Middle East (R1b) before expanding to Europe and Central/North Asia. However, several West Asian lineages would have entered the Steppe through the Balkans with Y-DNA G2a3a1 and J2b2. I have put together the Mesolithic and Neolithic lineages linked to R1a, so as to better distinguish from those brought over the Caucasus by R1b (and T1a1a ?).

European lineages
(Mesolithic + Neolithic)

- H1
- H1a3b
- H1b1a
- H1b3
- H1g1
- H1h1
- H1ca
- H2a1a
- H7c1
- H11a1
- H11a2a2
- H20a
- H34
- K1b2
- K2a3
- N1a1a1a1a
- T1a1
- T1a1b
- T1a1d
- T2a1a1b
- U2e1b3
- U2e1i
- U4a
- U4a1
- U4a1d
- U4a2a
- U4b
- U4b1a4
- U4b1b1c
- U4b3a
- U4d2
- U4d2a
- U4d2b
- U5a1a1a
- U5a1a2a
- U5a1d2b
- U5a2a1
- U5a2b
- U5b1b1a
- U8a1a1b1
- W3a1d

West Asian lineages (probably linked to the Bronze Age diffusion of R1b)

- J1b1b1
- H8b1a
- H8b1b
- H15b

West Asian lineages (probably non-IE)

- J1d6a (correlates more with G2a and J2a)
- J2a2b
- J2a2c1
- HV1a1a (correlates more with J1 and T)
- HV12b1 (found only in Iran)
- HV13a (Caucasian ?)
- K1a3b (Caucasian ?)
- K1a17
- T2h (correlates more with G2a and J2a)
- U1a1
- U3b2c (correlates more with J1 and J2a)
- U7a2
- U7a3a1
- U7a4b
- X2e2a1

Unclear

- HV6 (correlates with both R1a and R1b, but probably linked to the original R1b)
- HV9 (correlates with both R1a and R1b, but probably linked to the original R1b)
- H2b
- H3g3 (closer affinity with R1b)
- H5a1 (correlates with both R1a and R1b)
- H6a1b (correlates with both R1a and R1b)
- H27a (correlates with both R1a and R1b)
- H35
- H49c (closer affinity with R1b)
- H97 (only found among Siberians ?)
- I4a1 (correlates with both R1a and R1b)
- J1c5 (closer affinity with R1b)
- J1c10a (closer affinity with R1b, but present in Neolithic Europe)
- K1a4 (closer affinity with R1b, but present in Neolithic Europe)
- K1a32 (closer affinity with R1b)
- K2a5 (closer affinity with R1b, but present in Neolithic Europe)
- N1a1b1a1
- T2g1a1 (correlates with both R1a and R1b)
 
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Maciamo in my opinion you should make a thread about the original mtDNA haplogroups of R1* people.
My bet would be something like rare lineages such as X,I,W, or N1a/N1b.
All the mtDNA R descended haplos such as H,U,K,JT or V seem to have a better correlation with Y-DNA F*,IJ* or even G*(or H* for that matter) and were picked up by expanding PIE people relatively recently during their Bronze/Iron Age expansion throughout Central Asia, the Middle East, Anatolia and of course Europe.

N1, I, W and X are basal Eurasian and linked primarily to Y-haplogroup G.

The Mal'ta boy from Siberia who was R* belonged to U*. R1a is strongly linked to U2, U4, U5 and U8a1, so R1* people also probably belonged essentially to U subclades, as well as the Siberian C4a. Other subclades listed on this page were assimilated from Neolithic farmers by R1a tribes, or from local South Asian and West Asian tribes by R1b people in the Late Palaeolithic to Early Neolithic.
 
I think haplogroup HV0/V should be added to the European lineages. Gotland Pitted Ware remains Ajvide 29B and Ajvide 52A have been tested HV0. Since autosomal DNA of the Ajvide remains showed clearly that they were related to mesolithic HG's and Saami are half mtDNA V I think this is relevant. Allthough two other graves saw H/R (marker 16311C) which could indicate influx of farmer mtDNA.

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/370/1660/20130373.figures-only
 
Happy New Year, Maciamo. Thank you for the link to that interesting paper. I notice that it only discusses mtDNA, so I assume the linkages to Y DNA you mention are based on other research.

I do have some concerns about the conclusions in that paper, since the authors are trying to determine the genetic makeup of ancient Altaic populations based solely on the mtDNA of the current Altaic population without taking into account the fact that Cossacks from Ukraine and Kazakhstan invaded the area on behalf of the Russian Tzar in the 1600s, killing and carrying off much of the indigenous population and settling the area in considerable numbers. It therefore seems likely that a majority of the still tiny population of the Altaic region are descended from people who only arrived in the area from eastern Europe and western Asia less than 500 years ago.
 
I think haplogroup HV0/V should be added to the European lineages. Gotland Pitted Ware remains Ajvide 29B and Ajvide 52A have been tested HV0. Since autosomal DNA of the Ajvide remains showed clearly that they were related to mesolithic HG's and Saami are half mtDNA V I think this is relevant. Allthough two other graves saw H/R (marker 16311C) which could indicate influx of farmer mtDNA.

http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/370/1660/20130373.figures-only

If you are referring to the new Derenko study, there wasn't any HV0 or V among the deep mtDNA sequences tested. If you refer to other studies, V7a and V15 are already mentioned above. There aren't any other known V subclades associated with the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Never seen any IE HV0 either.
 
Happy New Year, Maciamo. Thank you for the link to that interesting paper. I notice that it only discusses mtDNA, so I assume the linkages to Y DNA you mention are based on other research.

I do have some concerns about the conclusions in that paper, since the authors are trying to determine the genetic makeup of ancient Altaic populations based solely on the mtDNA of the current Altaic population without taking into account the fact that Cossacks from Ukraine and Kazakhstan invaded the area on behalf of the Russian Tzar in the 1600s, killing and carrying off much of the indigenous population and settling the area in considerable numbers. It therefore seems likely that a majority of the still tiny population of the Altaic region are descended from people who only arrived in the area from eastern Europe and western Asia less than 500 years ago.

The study investigates indigenous Siberian tribes, not European Russians or Cossacks. It is not limited to the Altai, but comprises many parts of Siberia.
 
The study investigates indigenous Siberian tribes, not European Russians or Cossacks. It is not limited to the Altai, but comprises many parts of Siberia.

The study does state that it is focused on the Altaic region, although similar concerns about admixture would apply to all parts of Siberia, with the date of conquest by steppe Cossacks acting on behalf of the Russian Tzar varying from the 1500s to the 1700s, depending on the region. I don't see anything in the paper that specifies that the samples were collected only from indigenous groups with an effort being made to avoid European admixture - can you point out to me where that's specified? I know that when it comes to European admixture among indigenous people here in Canada, it's difficult to avoid admixture when doing genetic studies, although that tends to be more of a problem with paternal rather than maternal lines.

If I want to know about the genetics of the population of a particular area for a previous time period, I'd rather have genetic information from old bones, where possible, particularly in a place like Siberia that has a small population that has been severely impacted by colonialism.
 
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The study does state that it is focused on the Altaic region, although similar concerns about admixture would apply to all parts of Siberia, with the date of conquest by steppe Cossacks acting on behalf of the Russian Tzar varying from the 1500s to the 1700s, depending on the region. I don't see anything in the paper that specifies that the samples were collected only from indigenous groups with an effort being made to avoid European admixture - can you point out to me where that's specified? I know that when it comes to European admixture among indigenous people here in Canada, it's difficult to avoid admixture when doing genetic studies, although that tends to be more of a problem with paternal rather than maternal lines.

If I want to know about the genetics of the population of a particular area for a previous time period, I'd rather have genetic information from old bones, where possible, particularly in a place like Siberia that has a small population that has been severely impacted by colonialism.

Did you read the paper and check the supplementary materials ? Additional file #2 shows the location of the samples. #4 gives the haplogroup for each sample with the ethnicity specified. Only 18 of them are Altaians. The Alatian haplogroups include many that look much more Middle Eastern than Russian, such as X2e2e (5 samples), H2b, H3g3 and K1a3b. Doubtful these are Slavic. Among what's left, everything could be Proto-Indo-European and correlates just as well with R1b as with R1a (H6a1b, HV9, I4a, K1a4, U4b1b1c) or better with R1b (J1b1b1a), or with nothing (H* and T1*).
 
If you are referring to the new Derenko study, there wasn't any HV0 or V among the deep mtDNA sequences tested. If you refer to other studies, V7a and V15 are already mentioned above. There aren't any other known V subclades associated with the Proto-Indo-Europeans. Never seen any IE HV0 either.

Hm. I think I misread your post. Or even this entire thread. Let's blame it on new years eve. Of which I will give no details, mind you ;)
 
Did you read the paper and check the supplementary materials ? Additional file #2 shows the location of the samples. #4 gives the haplogroup for each sample with the ethnicity specified. Only 18 of them are Altaians. The Alatian haplogroups include many that look much more Middle Eastern than Russian, such as X2e2e (5 samples), H2b, H3g3 and K1a3b. Doubtful these are Slavic. Among what's left, everything could be Proto-Indo-European and correlates just as well with R1b as with R1a (H6a1b, HV9, I4a, K1a4, U4b1b1c) or better with R1b (J1b1b1a), or with nothing (H* and T1*).

I read the paper, which seemed to be focused on the Altaic region but I now see from the supplementary information that in fact the samples were taken from various groups in various parts of Siberia. However, as I said, I'd have the same concerns about the effects of colonization on modern DNA from any part of Siberia. Although I suppose it probably affected Y DNA more than mtDNA. The event that might have brought a lot of European and West Asian mtDNA into many parts of southern Siberia during the last 1000 years is the "Mongol" expansion, which actually involved many different Siberian ethnic groups joining the Mongols in invading east Asia, west Asia and eastern Europe. The histories indicate that those who survived to return home often brought captives with them. I feel that in order to understand who was living in Siberia during the Bronze Age, we need Bronze Age DNA, given the small population and the major population turnovers that have occurred since then.

Do you have links to Y DNA stats for Siberia? I'm not seeing major links between the "European" and "west Asian" mtDNA lineages in Siberia and R1a and R1b, even though such links can in some cases be found elsewhere.
 
I agree with Aberdeen when he says that most of these West Eurasian lineages found in modern tribal Siberians can be attributed to the Mongol Empire. However, I'm not saying Maciamo's wrong when he says that there might be Indo-European subclades among all these West Eurasian markers. I just happen to think that only a tiny minority of them can reasonnably be linked to the Indo-Europeans. The Caucasoid mtDNA makeup also seems unexpectedly diverse, for such Mongoloid populations as tribal Siberians, in a way that cannot be explained by Indo-European gene flow alone. Plus, most of these lineages are "Middle Easternish" as Maciamo pointed out, which is more consistent with Middle Easterners being brought to the region by the Mongols rather than with an actual Indo-European connection. The Caucasoid mtDNA frequency should have been lower( and should not have shown such diversity) if there was only an Indo-European source for it.
 
Curious about Genes

Are there any genetic sequences which are unique in every human body and can be identified easily ? :embarassed:
 
Idk if there is sense in searching for original IE mts, becasue
they were constantly changing. Even the oldest examples of
people like Maltaboy and Oleniostrovian are mixed, so logicaly
their mts were from the ouside of the tribe. And plus on early
stage were imported Caucasian mts. So, the original would be
mt of the first Indoeuropean, and becasue this is impossible to
known, it is hard to trying to named such entity like original IE
mts. The only thing which can be done, it is segregation mts
according to the place, culture and epoche.
 
I have re-analysed the raw mtDNA data of Central Asian populations from
...
- K1b1b : K1b1 clades are found throughout Europe. K1b1b is rare but has been found in Greece and Tajikistan.

I'm mtDNA K1b1b from old Irish/Welsh/Scot/Briton per 23&me.
 

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