Origin of the Libyans

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I was looking at the mtDNA maps on 23andMe and noticed that Libya had a very different set of haplogroups from its neighbours. It is much more European. Libya is an African pocket of mtDNA I, K, T, U3, U4, U5 and X, all the haplogroups associated with the Caucasus and the Pontic steppes. The only typical Indo-European haplogroup missing is W (more common in the northern steppe and forest-steppe, where the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian branches originated).

The Greeks are known to have established colonies in Libya (7th century BCE in Cyrenaica), but could they have had such an impact on the modern population ? The Phoenicians also settled in Libya, but they couldn't have brought I, U4 or U5.

There is not that much haplogroup H, so I am inclined to think of a direct IE invasion from the steppe/Caucasus region. Wikipedia mentions invading horsemen during the Bronze Age. The ancient Libyans invaded Egypt during the 13th century BCE. A fresco of the tomb of Seti I, (1279 BCE) depict by the Libyans as light-skinned (much lighter than the Egyptians). This is undeniable proof that Europeans had settled in Libya before 1300 BCE, so well before the Greeks.

The Y-DNA maps show a substantial amount of R1b1b2 and a little R1a. The analysis of haplogroup J shows some Greek J2a4a1 (M92) and J2b (M102) in Cyrenaica. But R1b1b2 is all over Libya and R1a closer to Tunisia, where the Greeks didn't establish colonies.

The only way the isolated and resource-poor Libyans could have successfully invade Egypt during the Bronze Age is if they had superior technology. The only people susceptible to provide that were the Indo-Europeans. The Libyans seem to have been associated to the mysterious Sea Peoples, who were also likely Indo-Europeans from the Black Sea shores. The Lybians ruled Egypt from 943 to 713 BCE (22nd Dynasty).
 
Ancient Lybians were Berbers, that's why they were White skinned

"The history of Libya includes the history of its rich mix of people added to the indigenous Berber tribes. "

Berbero.jpg
 
Ancient Lybians were Berbers, that's why they were White skinned

"The history of Libya includes the history of its rich mix of people added to the indigenous Berber tribes. "

Berbers have completely different DNA from other Libyans. Their Y-DNA is E-M81 and their mtDNA mostly H1, U6, M1 and L. Anyway the Berbers are almost as dark as the Egyptians (not like the image you posted).
 
Berbers have completely different DNA from other Libyans. Their Y-DNA is E-M81 and their mtDNA mostly H1, U6, M1 and L.
That's why I said Ancient Lybians were Berbers, because modern Lybian people today have mixed ancestry, but the indigenous lybians were Berber, and they were white skinned.


"Archaeological evidence indicates that from as early as 8,000 BC, the coastal plain of Ancient Libya was inhabited by a Neolithic people, the Berbers, who were skilled in the domestication of cattle and the cultivation of crops.[9]"

"Native Libyans are primarily of Berber and Arab heritage. Small Tuareg and Tebu tribal groups in southern Libya are nomadic or seminomadic. Among foreign residents, the largest groups are citizens of other African nations, including North Africans (primarily Egyptians), and Sub-Saharan Africans."

Later, the area known in modern times as Libya also was occupied by a series of other peoples, with the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Greeks, Persian Empire, Romans, Vandals, Arabs, Turks and Byzantines ruling all or part of the area.

"The Phoenicians were the first to establish trading posts in Libya, when the merchants of Tyre (in present-day Lebanon) developed commercial relations with the Berber tribes and made treaties with them to ensure their cooperation in the exploitation of raw materials."

"Pockets of Berber population remain in modern Libya, but dispersal of Berbers north as far as Ireland and Scandinavia is documented in genetic markers studied by physical anthropologists and dispersal in Africa from the Atlantic coast to the Siwa oasis in Egypt, seems to have followed climatic changes causing increasing desertification."

Anyway the Berbers are almost as dark as the Egyptians (not like the image you posted).
No, the image I posted is of an ancient lybian, that is, a Berber. They are not dark skinned, for example Idir Hamid is an Algerian berber:
546px-Idir_Hamid_Cheriet.JPG
 
The M-81 Berbers were / are (what little is left of them) white. Their origin is Eurasian. Most "Berbers" today are mixed with Arab and Sub-Saharan peoples. Also, refer to the indigenous population of the Canary Islands, the Gaunches.
 
Yes, most north africans today are Arabic mixed and some Sub-Saharian. The pure berbers are only found in small pockets all along North Africa, from Morocco to Egypt.
This were the Guanches (brown clothes)

AlonsoFernandezdeLugo2.JPG
 
I was looking at the mtDNA maps on 23andMe and noticed that Libya had a very different set of haplogroups from its neighbours. It is much more European. Libya is an African pocket of mtDNA I, K, T, U3, U4, U5 and X, all the haplogroups associated with the Caucasus and the Pontic steppes..

Libya although big in land size is really the smallest nation in North Africa population wise so founder effect plays a major role when you keep in mind Libyans numbered under 1 Million in 1945!

Looking at Y-DNA you can see some J2b, R1a1a, R1b1b2, I2, E1b1b1a2 V13 so even amongst the male lines some are related to the Balkans (possibly Greco-Roman influence)

The majority of the male lines are E1b1b1a4-V65 (~30%) followed by E1b1b1b2-M183 (~20%) & J1e1c-L147 (~20%)

G-M201 (~8%) & T-M70 (~5%)
 
Yes, most north africans today are Arabic mixed and some Sub-Saharian.

Coastal North Africans also mixed with Europeans, that settled North Africa prior to Islamic era (Vandals, Greeks, Romans) & during (Slave variety, Ottoman Troops)

The pure Berbers live in the inland Atlas range, which is mainly in Morroco-Algeria, their purity shows in their 80%+ frequency of E1b1b1b2-M183 opposed to the coasts were genetic diversity peaks around the old civilization centers.

North African natives are two branchs
E1b1b1b-M81 (Exclusively Berbers)
E1b1b1a-M78 (V12 Nubians-Cushites, V22 Anceint Egyptians, V65 Lybians)
 
Coastal North Africans also mixed with Europeans, that settled North Africa prior to Islamic era (Vandals, Greeks, Romans) & during (Slave variety, Ottoman Troops)

The pure Berbers live in the inland Atlas range, which is mainly in Morroco-Algeria, their purity shows in their 80%+ frequency of E1b1b1b2-M183 opposed to the coasts were genetic diversity peaks around the old civilization centers.

North African natives are two branchs
E1b1b1b-M81 (Exclusively Berbers)
E1b1b1a-M78 (V12 Nubians-Cushites, V22 Anceint Egyptians, V65 Lybians)
Berbers live in very small pockets all along North Africa, and few are Pure Berbers :
Berbers.png
 
VERY few pure Berbers...
 
Berbers live in very small pockets all along North Africa, and few are Pure Berbers

E1b1b1b2-M183 is the Berber marker & they are more than 50% of the population of NW Africa regardless of what they are culturally...

An Arabic speaking E1b1b1b2-M183 is genetically a Beberid
A Berber speaking G-M201 is genetically a Caucasid

The Atlas Berbers are the least mixed, Southern groups have Subsaharids living amongst them & the coastal groups are genetically more diverse with lineages from all over
 
I wished to discuss the presence of Indo-European haplogroups in Libya, not who the Berbers in general are.
 
I think, those Indoeuropeans mey be Libu, or Lybu, which are Sea Peoples, and this may have conections with an illyrian tribe Liburnians.
 
E-M81 is common in North Africa, that is why they are like egyptians.
Why you trying to say that the Berbers are whites all the time?
We see that M86 is in North Africa. Some guys with white faces were the albino or European who migrated.

Some Ainu have blue eyes and blond hair ... Why? We know that there is no R1b, R1a, I, E there.
 
E-M81 is common in North Africa, that is why they are like egyptians.
Why you trying to say that the Berbers are whites all the time?
We see that M86 is in North Africa. Some guys with white faces were the albino or European who migrated.

Some Ainu have blue eyes and blond hair ... Why? We know that there is no R1b, R1a, I, E there.
Not true. E-M81 is common in the NorthWest of north-Africa in Berbers, not all north-Africa. In Egypt or Lybia , the E-M81 is not common. And Berbers do have european mtDNA llike H, V ,etc
 
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E-M81 is common in North Africa, that is why they are like egyptians.
Why you trying to say that the Berbers are whites all the time?
We see that M86 is in North Africa. Some guys with white faces were the albino or European who migrated.

Some Ainu have blue eyes and blond hair ... Why? We know that there is no R1b, R1a, I, E there.

You don't seem to know much about genetics or history. NATIVE ORIGIN (original indigenous) Berbers were / are (what remains) EURASIAN and E subclade M-81. This subclade pertains primarily to NW Africa, although it is found as far north as Scandinavia. Today's "Berbers" are primarily mixed types. Only 25-30% of North West African (or North East African for that matter) Berbers are genetically white.

The "Berbers" who are "like [E]gyptians" may be culturally "Berber" but, genetically, have little or nothing to do with the direct descendants of true autochthonous Berbers. Please, do some research...
 
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E-M81 is common in North Africa, that is why they are like egyptians.

Wrong.

SpanishRobinoMap.png

EM-81 distribution from Robino et al. (2008).

berberhb4.jpg

As you can see EM-81 reachs the highest levels into the "atlas zone" where berbers have remained less mixed with other North African tribes. In Egypt EM-81 levels are extremely low.

Greetings.
 
genetically white???What does that mean? White skin, blues eyes? Who did say that M-81 was white?

The Ainu people in Japon have blue eyes, white skin, blue hair *caucasians* faces . Are they white? they belong to haplogroup D.
 
You don't seem to know much about genetics or history. NATIVE ORIGIN (original indigenous) Berbers were / are (what remains) EURASIAN and E subclade M-81. This subclade pertains primarily to NW Africa, although it is found as far north as Scandinavia. Today's "Berbers" are primarily mixed types. Only 25-30% of North West African (or North East African for that matter) Berbers are genetically white.

The "Berbers" who are "like [E]gyptians" may be culturally "Berber" but, genetically, have little or nothing to do with the direct descendants of true autochthonous Berbers. Please, do some research...

genetically white???What does that mean? White skin, blues eyes? Who did say that M-81 was white?

The Ainu people in Japon have blue eyes, white skin, blue hair *caucasians* faces . Are they white? they belong to haplogroup D.
 
genetically white???What does that mean? White skin, blues eyes? Who did say that M-81 was white?

The Ainu people in Japon have blue eyes, white skin, blue hair *caucasians* faces . Are they white? they belong to haplogroup D.

I fail to see what the ainu people have to do with this. And nobody has said that the berbers have blue eyes (or hair xDD). You said that "EM-81 was common in all North Africa and that it was also common in Egypt and that's why berbers look like egyptians". I have showed you already that you are totally wrong.

You seems a little bit confused about the issue being discussed. :disappointed:
 

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