Bosnians/ ethnic groups there

ukaj said:
Not according to historical fact. It is interesting to note that it is historical fact that the first kingdom of Croatia, White Croatia, was not situated in Dalmatia but in Poland, Bohemia and Slovakia with its capital being Kraków. Indeed White Croatian figures played a pivotal role in early history of the Polish and Bohemian kingdoms. Even the first canonised patron saint of Poland, St. Wojciech; 'Wojciech of the Slavs' was a White Croatian.3.0 Selected Bibliography & References
.
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There was never ever Croatian kingdom with capital in Krakow (Cracow). You will never find White Croatia on maps pre 19th century, before Poland was divided between Russia, Prussia and Austro-Hungarians. White Croats designation was coined by Austro-Hungarian Empire for their occupied region of Krakow. It was their justification for occupation, as White Croatia (historians were not clear where it was) was part of old Hungarian kingdom.
All this mess happened during 19th century and sadly it continues till today.
 
ukaj said:
TE=Templar;409659]So you are basically saying that South Slavs are the same as other Slavs, except for some minor admixture with the local population. And the different ratio of I2 to R1a is just genetic drift? I don't know, other Slavs look way different than us. Way more round-headed, shorter, less hairy, less aggressive (from my person experience), etc.

If I2 did come with the Slavic migrations my guess would be that on their way to the West Balkans, they mixed with a I2 heavy population that was probably located where the old Cucuteni-Trypillian culture used to be. That would explain the tallness, hairiness, among other European Paleolithic traits. So then in the end, South Slavs would be a mix of Northern Slavs, East Balkan people, and West balkan people. With ancestry from the neolithic farmers, Indo-Europeans, and the paleolithic hunter-gatherers.

Lower Austria and Vienna, the northern parts on the Morava (March) and Thaya Rivers are part of the Czech Republic and Slovakia this is the birth of slavs.. Czech historian Safarik, All-Slavic Conference, Prague (Curta 2001,By about 1500 BC, the area of land which now corresponds with south-eastern Poland and north-eastern Ukraine became home of the early Slavic tribes, which are commonly known as the Proto-Slavs. Studies and excavations of this area of land, that could be called the 'Slavic Cradle', prove that the present day Slavs are the descendants of these tribes. The Proto-Slavic tribes dwelt in their homeland for many centuries, speaking one common language; which in time would produce the modern Slavic languages of today as well as extinct languages. taking into account the history of the various other peoples of Europe, based on historical evidence and observation, I believe that the physical appearance of Slavic peoples are generally discernible from non-Slavic peoples. For me there is a general 'Slavic look' as Slavs do share certain physical characteristics that are more common amongst Slavs more so than non-Slavs. For example if you were to place Slavic persons of any nation in a room full of non-Slavic European persons, you would have quite a good idea who was a Slav or non-Slav.The word 'Slav' or 'Slowianin' derives from the Slavic term for word; 'Slowo'. Thus, to the Slavs their name testified to their mastery over spoken words. It could be put as 'the ones we understand'. The Slavs called themselves 'Slovjeni' or 'Slaveni' do to the fact that their people 'understood' one another. Their neighbours to the west, in particular the Germans who spoke a different tongue, were not understood, and thus the Slavs came to call them 'Nijemcima' meaning mutes, dumb, speechless and silent. It could be put as 'the ones we do not understand'. The name has stood the test of time; Germans are still called 'Niemci' today by the Slavic peoples.One way of determining where the original homeland of the Slavs is to undertake linguistic palaeontology. Polish botanist J. Rostafinski for example, pushed linguistic evidence even further. He argued that the original homeland of the Slavs was devoid of beech, larch and yew trees, because in all Slavic languages, the words for those trees are all foreign loan words of Germanic origin. On the basis of distribution of those trees, Rostafinski was able to locate the ancestral homeland of the Slavs in the marshes along the Pripet River in Polesie, generally in the south-eastern Poland and north-eastern Ukraine area, as this area was devoid of such trees. Polish historian Jan Peisker, elaborated this view stating "the Slav was the son and product of the marsh" (Curta 2001, p. 8).
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:confused:.........I am not Templar

I agree the birth of the slav is in the pocket of SE poland, slovakia and moldovia. But it does not say that R1a is slavic or I2a is slavic
 
ukaj said:
Firstly, the migration was to the west, peacefully and quietly, tribe after tribe, occupying districts and regions the Germanic tribes (e.g. Vandals, Visigoths & Ostrogoths) deserted in order to attack the Roman Empire. The waves of nomadic barbarians, originating from central Asia such as the Huns, who arrived in 370 AD, then pushed the Slavs in all directions following their advance. As the Hun empire fell in 453 AD, there was a rush of Slavic migration to the south towards the Black Sea and the mouth of the river Danube. Slavic warbands and groups broke through many defences with weapons in hand, throughout the lower Danube in the outer regions of the Byzantine Empire reaching the Balkans. The first known recording of this Slavic mass migration was in the year 493 AD.In the 6th century, during the closing stages of the mass-migrations the Goth historian Jordanes and eyewitness wrote: "The Slavs are of one blood and live in three groups. The Venedic (West Slavs), Antic (East Slavs), and Sklavinian (South Slavs)" (2000, Pogonowski, p.19)."These are three great tribes of the same people."bare in mind Sklavinian is present scandavania.this is what a slovak histroian says The only Slavs that stayed put during the great mass-migrations are the Slovaks. This is the reason why they were, and indeed still are, situated almost in the centre of the Slavic cradle. Evidence of this fact can be seen in folkloristic studies. The Slovaks have no stories in their culture of their people shifting out of the ancestral homeland, unlike the Poles, Czechs and Croats etc. that have stories of such epic events.One example is Lech, Czech & Rus, which signifies the Slavic peoples migration away from the ancestral homeland. I must say don't dismiss legends as they can always be put in historical context, a certain chronological order in time and contain much factual information. Where not our Slavic forefathers trying to tell us something though the tales of migration they left behind for us? Also, it is said that one who speaks Slovakian, has the easiest time understanding the rest of the Slavic languages, as they are in the middle of the Slavic sea; one of the biggest 'human ethnographic seas', on the face of this earth.Evidence of the South Slavs, in particular the Croats migrating from the ancestral home in Poland to Dalmatia is also recorded in folk narratives, and also in historical fact. The folk narrative describes five Slavic brothers and two sisters that lead the Croats from the area around Kraków in Poland into the Balkans in the 7th century. Are these epic tales of heroic migrations a coincidence? Not according to historical fact. It is interesting to note that it is historical fact that the first kingdom of Croatia, White Croatia, was not situated in Dalmatia but in Poland, Bohemia and Slovakia with its capital being Kraków. Indeed White Croatian figures played a pivotal role in early history of the Polish and Bohemian kingdoms. Even the first canonised patron saint of Poland, St. Wojciech; 'Wojciech of the Slavs' was a White Croatian.3.0 Selected Bibliography & References

Barraclough, G. (ed) 1982, The Times Concise Atlas of World History, Angus & Robertson Publishers, London.

Curta, F. 2001, The Making of the Slavs: History and Archaeology of the Lower Danube Region c. 500 - 700, Cambridge Univerity Press, Cambridge.

Gasiorowski, P. 2002, Piotr Gasiorowski's Indo-European Page [On-line], Available: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/2190/Indo-European.html [2002, Apr. 8].

Gy, C.K. 2002, Central European Myths of Conquest [On-line], Available: http://www.hhrf.org/minoritiesresearch/mr05.htm [2002, Mar. 11].

Lukowski, J., Zawadzki, H. 2001, A Concise History of Poland, Cambridge Univerity Press, Cambridge.

Pogonowski, I.C. 2000, Poland: An Illustrated History, Hippocrene Books, New York.

Siuchninski, M. 1979, An Illustrated History of Poland, Interpress, Warsaw.

Szczytna, L. 2002, Notes on Polish History [On-line], Available: http://slavic.freeservers.com/Poland1.html [2002, Sep. 27].

Larousse Encyclopedia of Mythology 1959, Paul Hamlyn Limited, London.

The Slavs (video recording) 1984, ITC Entertainment, Directed by Folco Quilici.

2001, Early History of the Slavs [On-line], Available: http://www.campuslife.utoronto.ca/groups/csa/croatia/history/slavs.html [2001, Aug. 29].

2002, Indo-European Languages [On-line], Available: http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/atree.html [2002, Apr. 4].
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your links and info is old.......... , but latest papers from russian, polish and german people is that the croatians did come from the upper vistula river on the east side between the modern rivers of san and wieprz.
and there are only antes and sklavians that can be associated with some form of ethnic slav.

R1a1a7 is now regarded as one of a few truly slavic marker
 
zanipolo said:
your links and info is old.......... , but latest papers from russian, polish and german people is that the croatians did come from the upper vistula river on the east side between the modern rivers of san and wieprz.
and there are only antes and sklavians that can be associated with some form of ethnic slav.

R1a1a7 is now regarded as one of a few truly slavic marker
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do you guys understand the genetic charts.haplogoup has many genetic drifts...go to this link an you will see the genetic drifts of all haplogroup..I2,stems from IJ then IJK,thats very interesting since it can be classified as Mediterranean/Aegean (Di Giacomo, 2004), Greco-Anatolian, Mesopotamian and/or Caucasian and is linked to the earliest indigenous populations of Anatolia and the Aegean. It was carried by Bronze Age immigrants to Europe, and ultimately descends from the Cro-Magnon population (IJ-M429 Y-DNA) within the region spanning eastern Turkey and Persia around 35,000 years ago (Sengupta 2006).The highest reported frequency of J-M172 ever was 87.4%, among Ingush in Malgobek (Balanovsky 2011). J-M172 - Associated with Mediterranean, South Caucasian and Fertile Crescent populations, with its peaks at 87.4% in Ingushetia and 72% in Georgia's Kazbegi region (near Mount Kazbek). In the North Caucasus, the largest frequencies are those of Nakh peoples (Chechens (56.7%) and Ingush (88.8%).[26] Other notable values were found among North Caucasian Turkic peoples (Kumyks (25%) and Balkars(24%)[28]). It is notable that according to both Nasidze's study in 2004 and then a later study on Dagestani peoples by Yunusbaev in 2006, J-M172 suddenly collapses as one enters the territory of non-Nakh Northeast Caucasian peoples, dropping to very low values among Dagestani peoples. The overwhelming bulk of Chechen J-M172 is of the subclade J-M67), of which the highest frequencies by far are found among Nakh peoples- Chechens were 55.2% according to the Balanovsky study, while Ingush were 87.4%./In some point the ancestors of Ihaplogroup were J it doesnt matter how old a studie is they all say same thing,,
 
Templar said:
None of the history excerpts that you pasted have anything to do with this. Your are saying that people in Herzegovina look the closest to Ghegs, but then how come people in Herzegovina have the highest rates of I2? The vast majority of Slavs in the world are R1a (ethnic Russians of which there are over 133 million in the world, ethnic Poles of which there are over 60 million in the world, etc), it is only a tiny fraction of Southern Slavs which are mostly I2: people in Dalmatia (population of around 900,000), Herzegovina (population of around 400,000), and mountainous parts of Bosnia (less than 3 million). Notice how the most isolated and mountainous parts are the ones with the highest rates of I2. The flat-lands to the North which were the most exposed to conquest are mostly R1a and R1B.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
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The genetics of bosnia and herzgovinia are they 100% correct did they test the whole popultion?this goes with albanians also..how come people in Herzegovina have the highest rates of I2?Are they or is it a matter of interest for land,an a race,,I know my tribe comes from herzgovinia we fled from turkish and slav population. herzgovinia was not so populated by slav at 1 point this is reason from albanian migration..,now kosova albanians. the kosova albanians most are from the tribe of hoti also,they fled to kosova to get away from turkish population also but assimulated to islam,now if kosova albanians have the highest genetic of ev-13 then this would mean ev-13 was high in the reigion of herzgovinia at 1 point,,but i just cant see that our genetics of bosnian and albanians to be correct..j halpgroup must have been dominate in that region at one point in time if it were then,if you look at the places where the natives once lived in both our reigions an genetics you will see ev-13 was high an still is,,if bosnians are illyrians then the genetics them would be spread through alot of balkans,,macedonia the reigion their was high population of illyrian tribes also.thracians near their also an epirus,,all these places had illyrian tribes their or near..macedonia high population of ev-13,thessally high population of ev13,illyrian land on albania high population of ev-13.dardania high population of ev13,montenegro high population of ev-13.bosnia high population of I2a,how can this happen,,where did the slav migration go?it was recorded by romans,an greeks,see what i mean,,Im not saying we illyrians an use are not.i stick with what i say genetics of our people i dont belive,,an another thing,if ev-13 entered balkans from asia minor an hit by 3 waves of them,then how can they move so upwards to a high population where the I2a population is an not be assimualted by them or even driven away by them,remember slav migration was huge and a huge ammount of slavs came..
 
My guess if true about genetics,,J an E were high in north albania an herzgovinia,maybe J was their an mixed with slavs result genetic drift of I
 
zanipolo said:
your links and info is old.......... , but latest papers from russian, polish and german people is that the croatians did come from the upper vistula river on the east side between the modern rivers of san and wieprz.
and there are only antes and sklavians that can be associated with some form of ethnic slav.

R1a1a7 is now regarded as one of a few truly slavic marker
Click to expand...

To find starting point of Croats' migration I would go a bit more to the east. To the land called Galicia or Halicz. We have to remember that name Croat is an english twist. The real name is Hrvat or Horvat (by other Slavs). In this Halicz place, I mentioned above, the old name for Carpathian Mountains is "Horby". Also in this area there are places like Hrevi, Harvin, Harevice (phonetic spelling). Look for Halicz almost at the bottom of the map, under word Russja.
Poland_under_Jagello.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poland_under_Jagello.jpg

It also corresponds better with one of centers of I2a1 spots.
Haplogroup_I2a.gif




Other than that it is almost impossible to figure out starting points, the homelands, of separate slavic tribes. The names written in ancient chronicles by Romans, Germans or Greeks don't resemble well with known names of slavic tribes as we known them by 10th century. It is probable that name Horvat was as common as Sloveni in self description of Slavic tribes.

We have to keep in mind that some tribes traveled for centuries to the final destination point. Therefore their location was changing few times during their voyage. Possibly every generation.
 
ukaj said:
The genetics of bosnia and herzgovinia are they 100% correct did they test the whole popultion?this goes with albanians also..how come people in Herzegovina have the highest rates of I2?Are they or is it a matter of interest for land,an a race,,I know my tribe comes from herzgovinia we fled from turkish and slav population. herzgovinia was not so populated by slav at 1 point this is reason from albanian migration..,now kosova albanians. the kosova albanians most are from the tribe of hoti also,they fled to kosova to get away from turkish population also but assimulated to islam,now if kosova albanians have the highest genetic of ev-13 then this would mean ev-13 was high in the reigion of herzgovinia at 1 point,,but i just cant see that our genetics of bosnian and albanians to be correct..j halpgroup must have been dominate in that region at one point in time if it were then,if you look at the places where the natives once lived in both our reigions an genetics you will see ev-13 was high an still is,,if bosnians are illyrians then the genetics them would be spread through alot of balkans,,macedonia the reigion their was high population of illyrian tribes also.thracians near their also an epirus,,all these places had illyrian tribes their or near..macedonia high population of ev-13,thessally high population of ev13,illyrian land on albania high population of ev-13.dardania high population of ev13,montenegro high population of ev-13.bosnia high population of I2a,how can this happen,,where did the slav migration go?it was recorded by romans,an greeks,see what i mean,,Im not saying we illyrians an use are not.i stick with what i say genetics of our people i dont belive,,an another thing,if ev-13 entered balkans from asia minor an hit by 3 waves of them,then how can they move so upwards to a high population where the I2a population is an not be assimualted by them or even driven away by them,remember slav migration was huge and a huge ammount of slavs came..
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illyrians are not one race, not one genetics, not one customs, not one culture.........they are too big, too many kings.
Its like the Thracians......everyone says dacians, getae, triballi, bessi, moesian, odyseyian are thracians.......but are they the same.........no?
 
zanipolo said:
illyrians are not one race, not one genetics, not one customs, not one culture.........they are too big, too many kings.
Its like the Thracians......everyone says dacians, getae, triballi, bessi, moesian, odyseyian are thracians.......but are they the same.........no?
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Illyrians would have started with one culture,1 language an few customs,If they didnt then they would have not been a single race to begin with,,what culture does greece have?or slavnic something would have been preserved in their culture to identify themselfs of whom they were?
 
LeBrok said:
To find starting point of Croats' migration I would go a bit more to the east. To the land called Galicia or Halicz. We have to remember that name Croat is an english twist. The real name is Hrvat or Horvat (by other Slavs). In this Halicz place, I mentioned above, the old name for Carpathian Mountains is "Horby". Also in this area there are places like Hrevi, Harvin, Harevice (phonetic spelling). Look for Halicz almost at the bottom of the map, under word Russja.
Poland_under_Jagello.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Poland_under_Jagello.jpg

It also corresponds better with one of centers of I2a1 spots.
Haplogroup_I2a.gif




Other than that it is almost impossible to figure out starting points, the homelands, of separate slavic tribes. The names written in ancient chronicles by Romans, Germans or Greeks don't resemble well with known names of slavic tribes as we known them by 10th century. It is probable that name Horvat was as common as Sloveni in self description of Slavic tribes.

We have to keep in mind that some tribes traveled for centuries to the final destination point. Therefore their location was changing few times during their voyage. Possibly every generation.
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yes agreed.but i am confused about ev-13 entering balkans from asia minor,i know 3 waves happen it entered greece first then may have travlled upwards to north albania herzgovinia an dardania.,but how can this dna remain strong in a populated area?It cant,it defeats the purpose as of the slavnic migration.their must have been another people their before i2a.unless they lived in tribal structures,,my cusin is a albanian historian whom works with greeks in athens an around the world,,he said to me when we albanians came their were huge men much bigger than us,,he doesnt go into detail much,But he did say their were people hear before us whom were huge in every way
 
ukaj said:
yes agreed.but i am confused about ev-13 entering balkans from asia minor,i know 3 waves happen it entered greece first then may have travlled upwards to north albania herzgovinia an dardania.,but how can this dna remain strong in a populated area?It cant,it defeats the purpose as of the slavnic migration.their must have been another people their before i2a.unless they lived in tribal structures,,my cusin is a albanian historian whom works with greeks in athens an around the world,,he said to me when we albanians came their were huge men much bigger than us,,he doesnt go into detail much,But he did say their were people hear before us whom were huge in every way
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Surely first there were europeans hunter-gatherers in Balkans. Since 10,000 year ago this region experiences few waves of farmers from fertile crescent, plus bronze age waves of IE from east, plus at the end we have Slavs, Bulgars and Turks. Balkans are huge conglomeration of different peoples and layers of cultures.
Here we are having fun figuring out who came when and what they left in genetic, linguistic and cultural inheritance.
 
In some point the ancestors of Ihaplogroup were J it doesnt matter how old a studie is they all say same thing,,
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No, the ancestors of people with the I haplogroup are IJ.
 
ukaj said:
Ij seperates into 2 branches,j an i,,So they are very much related
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correct me If I am wrong, but can we assume then that the I2a in western balkans could have broken away from J there?

If I am not mistaken, this was an early Terry Robb scenario, that I2a was an adriatic marker..............i will find it on the net
I cannot find it here, but internal links are interesting
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/
 
Im unsure if I came from north of blakans it is very strong their but if you look in caucasus you will also see I an j in same area..
zanipolo said:
correct me If I am wrong, but can we assume then that the I2a in western balkans could have broken away from J there?

If I am not mistaken, this was an early Terry Robb scenario, that I2a was an adriatic marker..............i will find it on the net
I cannot find it here, but internal links are interesting
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/
Click to expand...
 
zanipolo said:
correct me If I am wrong, but can we assume then that the I2a in western balkans could have broken away from J there?

If I am not mistaken, this was an early Terry Robb scenario, that I2a was an adriatic marker..............i will find it on the net
I cannot find it here, but internal links are interesting
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/
Click to expand...
If you look at the Andis people of caucasus they are a avar people we know avars migrated around that area of bosnia an they have a high rate of 12a halpgroup also.infact their genetics are I2a at 24.5 an j1 at 36.7%.this could be a possible that avar brang with them I2a,Because of the low percent of I2a in them could have many meanings,,1 avars migrated before they were assimulated by the surounding genetics R,,even these people Russians (Adygea they have 24% I2a.I2a2 i think is a drift from i2a
 
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