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Thread: Bosnians/ ethnic groups there

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aconform View Post
    My impression is from reading the threads here that you fall under the category of a national extremist. You seem always to be blind to any information anyone gives that does not fall in your own national romantic identity.

    First off All national identities are artificial before 1800 the common people didn’t see them selves as being any thing ells then being owned by nobles and kings. And borders are just as artificial and were formed by power struggles and not according to cultural groups. To the common man it didn’t mean anything, land and people changed hands all the time, they just got a new owner. Only thing they cared about is that the new owner would not treat them to bad.

    And your Greece is also a modern construction. Yes even your precious Greece. From 1823 there has gone a lot of work in making the Modern Greek identity. Even though you like to believe its all Hellenic and you guys are pure and direct descendants of the ancient Greeks. But, anyone with basic knowledge of history does not believe this. The Modern Greek state was formed just like FYROM is forming today. It is not my impression that anyone sees Modern Greek nation as having much to do with ancient Greece.

    All nations have myths and legends. Most civilized nations se them as myths and legends and don’t believe in them as historic fact. Problem with you my Balkan brothers and sisters is that you guys believe in them as if they are imperial proven facts.

    In Denmark: The myth about how Danish flag came to the Danish people. That it fell from the sky to a king on a campaign in the Baltic area. All know this but no one believes it. Because when we get taught history the first thing we learn is the difference from myth, legends and historical facts.

    Also as a side note. Here in Denmark in the academic community Greeks are considered ultra nationalistic and if one does field work one need to consider this. We are advised to keep our opinions to our selves if they don’t fit in with Modern Greek identity.

    What you need to do is learn the difference between legend myth and historical facts. And learn that just because something writes and does historical research it does not destroy you myths and legends. Because that’s what they are just good stories.

    Another interesting fact. A good friend of mine who is Danish. After he was soldier in Bosnia and Kosovo he started his academic carrier as a European Ethnologist. After he traveled to islands and mainland Greece. He was utterly shocked to the core: Saying that even the x-Yugoslavs people didn’t seem that national fanatics.
    This is wrong in so many levels . Have you read Engels recently because you just repeated his view of nation word to word , ofcourse you could also hear it in comunistic schools in ex-Yu. Athenians , Spartans , Tebans , Achayans , Macedonians ,... they were all Hellens , and despite they were divided in many states , they all know thea were Hellens . If Greeks/Helens are not descendants of Hellens then who is? Or you believe they just vanish in tin air , world does not begining with our generation , it was there long before , and it would be long after us. About Bosnians they are separate nation now , but descendant of Serb and Croat nation , because Serbia was compoused of Rascia and Bossnia in early midle ages , and Croatia streached to Vrbas river .

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by DejaVu View Post
    Bosnia and Bosniaks existed in history and thats a fact with evidence.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...nd_Herzegovina

    Bosnian Kingdom


    Macedonia existed all the time but there was no countries like Albania (Shqiperia) , Bulgaria (New name on Thracian territory) or Greece (only tribes not as a country). If there is anything that did not exist are your fake countries made up by western european elite?. Kosovo did not exist as a country but was created by western europeans? - again for their purpose "divide and conquer". Last person to speak about original ethnicity is a Shqiptar (Albanian - modern and fake way to call and identify them).


    There is no evidence that haplogroup G is or have anything to do with ancient Macedonians or ancient Greek tribes.

    iGenea - My Primitive tribe is Celtic or Vikings.
    Region of origin: Southwestern Europe.
    Yes Bosnia existed from X century , what about before ? Macedonia also didnt existed , or Albania , and Greek was surely there -Byzantine empire , like Bulgaria -since 680 on Balkans and before on Black sea coast

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valmir View Post
    After reading all of the Bosnians comments i concluded that Slavs loves to steal history of other nations!
    Like they doing with Macedonia, and now they started with iLLyria.
    What Slavs ? Slavs has over 50% R1a 3.500 years old , and Serbs only 5% ( and 10% of nonSlavic R1a 11.000 years old ), Croats 25% but mainly from Slavonia .
    Only Illyrian DNA is E1b1b and J , I2a2Din is not Illyrian but Sarmatian , if it would be Illyrian it would be present in South Italy ( Mesapi were Illyrian tribe ) , and Alexandar the Great would carry it to Asia and Egypt , but is not . Also it is old only 2.500 years and clustered - so it comed recently -it is not on Balkans since Paleolite.

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    Bosnia and Herzegovina are the Highest on (Y-dna I2a2a) 65%

  5. #105
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    Yes Herzegovina is highest on I2a2-Din -71% , but Bosnia 41% not more than Serbia or Croatia.

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    Ethnic group
    Paleolithic European
    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    hmm

    Pre-Ottoman Bosnia was overwhelmingly Catholic. Herzegovina on the other hand was mostly Orthodox but with a sizeable Catholic minority. The modern-day Orthodox population in Northern Bosnia is the result of migrations of mostly Vlachs, who were to serve as border guards for the Ottomans. This was required because a huge number of the Northern Catholic population fled to Croatia and Hungary in order to avoid Ottoman rule (this happened after they heard that the Eastern part of the country was conquered).

    The Bogomils were always a small minority, represented mostly by a couple of Monastic orders (never exceeded over 20% of Bosnia & Herzegovina)

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Pre-Ottoman Bosnia was overwhelmingly Catholic. Herzegovina on the other hand was mostly Orthodox but with a sizeable Catholic minority. The modern-day Orthodox population in Northern Bosnia is the result of migrations of mostly Vlachs, who were to serve as border guards for the Ottomans. This was required because a huge number of the Northern Catholic population fled to Croatia and Hungary in order to avoid Ottoman rule (this happened after they heard that the Eastern part of the country was conquered).

    The Bogomils were always a small minority, represented mostly by a couple of Monastic orders (never exceeded over 20% of Bosnia & Herzegovina)
    Yes preotoman Bosnia was mainly catholic , Bosnian kings were catholic . Yes Herzegovina was ortodox but there was also a lot of catholics to . No they were not Vlach , they were Serbs from Serbia with Vlach status - it is not etnicity it is simply form of soldier that is fighting for small estate that is given to him and is released from some taxes . Bogumils were mostly in east Bosnia and 20% could be true but more researches should be done .
    Many of catholics escaped , many were killed and many where islamized or crossed to ortodoxy . Catholics payed full taxes , orthodox only half and muslims none . My family is originaly from Herzegovina , and they were granted Vlach status and moved to Lika to fight for Turks , after Venetian conquest of Lika they becomed they soldiers , but after a decade or so crossed back on Turkic side and settled in Bosnia . Up to this point they were catholic , and than they crossed to orthodoxy , after that they moved to Serbia

  8. #108
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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    Well the vast majority of Vlachs were Latin-speaking descendants of the native populations of the Balkans (Illyrians, Dacians, and Thracians). The vast majority of them were Orthodox and so many adopted the Serbian ethnicity in order to unite with the Serbs (who were also Orthodox) against the Ottomans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

    But it doesn't even matter what they considered themselves, since all that really matters is the autosomal DNA of a population. Serbs, Bosnians, Vlachs, and Croatians are all overwhelmingly I2a1b-Din in their autosomal DNA, and thats why they are all tall, strong-boned, possess wide shoulders, and above-average muscle mass. There are even theories that the Spartans were descendants of people who were also mostly I2a1b-Din, and that this explains their superior military capabilities.

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    I know a girl who is descendant of Greek Vlachs and she looks quite Northeast European, as well as her family members and others from the same ethnicity according to what she says (I don't know much about it). Very light skin, eyes, and hair.

    I really wonder how different would appear from the main Greek population in autosomal tests. At least, she doesn't look like the typical Greek, no way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bosna501 View Post
    Dalmatia in Croatia this People are absolut different to northcroatians
    but they similar to Bosnians dalmatia must back to Mother Bosnia thats
    Dalmatias Home but that never will be and Dalmatia must Cry like a Baby
    without Mother.
    "mother bosnia", are you a retard? Dalmatia, only half of dalmatia was under Kingdom of Bosnia for 4 years (1386-1390)... HEY... 4 GOD DAMN YEARS... and rest of 1500 years from 6th century till today WAS A REGION DALMATIA mostly under VENICE and under kingdom of Croatia and Austro-Hungary, so don't give me your bosnian crap about dalmatia, you don't have anything to do with us... we are near by geography, true, but we are far away from you by light years based on culture, legacy, architecture and history and it's like that for 1400 years... TWO DIFFERENT WORLDS, ok? now piss off.

    P.S: Don't know why idiots like "bosna507" are allowed to write here?

    My God... some bosnian farmer imagined that "he has somethin to do with" Dalmatia hahah, hey bosnian boy, you know very well how we Croats, not only we dalmatians, look on you bosnians, it's better that I don't say it here... it's like redneck from texas says that "he have somethin to do with" I dunno...Prince William of UK. lol

  11. #111
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    Dale, you got infraction. You can disagree, but never insult a member of Eupedia.

  12. #112
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    Ethnic group
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    Bosnia was an independent kingdom longer than Croatia. Croatia was always Hungary's play-toy and servant. Also, Croatian achievements are NOT your own achievements. Each individual can only take credit for his OWN inventions, ideas, and actions.
    I2a2 has nothing to do with slavs btw. All I haplogroups belong to the Cro-Magnon family. Cro-Magnons were tall, dark haired/eyed, heavy-boned, and muscular and Bosnians have the highest rates of HP I in all of Europe (and therefore are the closest to the original Europeans).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Bosnia was an independent kingdom longer than Croatia. Croatia was always Hungary's play-toy and servant. Also, Croatian achievements are NOT your own achievements. Each individual can only take credit for his OWN inventions, ideas, and actions.
    I2a2 has nothing to do with slavs btw. All I haplogroups belong to the Cro-Magnon family. Cro-Magnons were and Bosnians have the highest rates of HP I in all of Europe (and therefore are the closest to the original Europeans).
    Just in passing: I2a2 has nothing to do with "tall, dark haired/eyed, heavy-boned, and muscular ". That's autosomal stuff, not Y-DNA stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    I2a2 has nothing to do with slavs btw. All I haplogroups belong to the Cro-Magnon family.
    These are not mutually exclusive. Haplogroup I is indeed the best candidate for a living descendant of Cro Magnon Y-DNA, but it also seems that expanding Slavs brought I2a-Din to the Balkans... at least, that's the best-guess theory we have right now to explain its youth and diversity patterns.

    Note: that doesn't mean that Cro-Magnons were Slavs, it just means that Slavs, or a subset of Slavs, have a "Paleolithic remnant" component to their genetics with I2a-Din, like Germanic peoples do with I1 and I2a-Cont.

    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Cro-Magnons were tall, dark haired/eyed, heavy-boned, and muscular and Bosnians have the highest rates of HP I in all of Europe (and therefore are the closest to the original Europeans).
    I'm not sure if you're right here, but having "the highest rates of HP I in all of Europe" does not imply that they are "the closest to the original Europeans." You have to allow for Y-line replacement, as seems to have occurred with the Basques (although their replacement was apparently away from I in favor of R1b, and I'm saying that with Bosnians it might be away from other haplogroups in favor of I).

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    These are not mutually exclusive.

    That's not the point. I'm getting tired of people blabbing away with Y-DNA mythologies. Technically the Y-DNA has nothing whatsoever to do with discreet physical appearances, or ethnicities as such, or languages, or cultures, or histories. This simple fact seems to escape a lot of posters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by razor View Post
    That's not the point. I'm getting tired of people blabbing away with Y-DNA mythologies. Technically the Y-DNA has nothing whatsoever to do with discreet physical appearances, or ethnicities as such, or languages, or cultures, or histories. This simple fact seems to escape a lot of posters.
    It's all about correlation, and historical populations carrying a certain haplogroup having a certain culture or trait. I think it's worthwhile to investigate. But you're right that many don't understand the complexities of such interactions.

    I wasn't really responding to you by the way, were you thinking we were disagreeing about something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    These are not mutually exclusive. Haplogroup I is indeed the best candidate for a living descendant of Cro Magnon Y-DNA, but it also seems that expanding Slavs brought I2a-Din to the Balkans... at least, that's the best-guess theory we have right now to explain its youth and diversity patterns.

    Note: that doesn't mean that Cro-Magnons were Slavs, it just means that Slavs, or a subset of Slavs, have a "Paleolithic remnant" component to their genetics with I2a-Din, like Germanic peoples do with I1 and I2a-Cont.



    I'm not sure if you're right here, but having "the highest rates of HP I in all of Europe" does not imply that they are "the closest to the original Europeans." You have to allow for Y-line replacement, as seems to have occurred with the Basques (although their replacement was apparently away from I in favor of R1b, and I'm saying that with Bosnians it might be away from other haplogroups in favor of I).
    Good points as usual.

    There's lack of Bosnian data, but I wouldn't bet they have retained a lot of Paleolithic DNA. The Balkans have a lot of different influences, and Bosnians need considerable isolation factor to get reports like this, wich I think is absent. In Iberia, for example, there are enough geographic elements to allow the isolation of Paleolithic Europeans and prosper exceedingly well. For the moment, since the Euro7 Calculator was developed, Iberians are the only ethnic group wich appearently retained most of this element (I2a1a* and similars in this case), although it doesn't mean they are the ones having more.

    In the Northernmost of Europe, don't know perhaps if the Finns or others, it's also possible to have retained a lot of the original I1 people. The problem is that with the Northwestern and Northeastern clusters, it's not possible to infer the aprox percent of R1a, R1b, I1, etc.

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    Ethnic group
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    Country: Bosnia & Herzegovina



    I'm not sure if you're right here, but having "the highest rates of HP I in all of Europe" does not imply that they are "the closest to the original Europeans." You have to allow for Y-line replacement, as seems to have occurred with the Basques
    I never said I was talking about Y-DNA, I was ofcourse talking about Autosomal DNA data.

    Haplogroup I is indeed the best candidate for a living descendant of Cro Magnon Y-DNA, but it also seems that expanding Slavs brought I2a-Din to the Balkans... at least, that's the best-guess theory we have right now to explain its youth and diversity patterns.
    I2a-Din has nothing to do with Slavs. Its supposed connection with Slavs is spread by slavophiles in the Balkans who are still hoping to pass as Slavs even after looking at the autosomal DNA data for their countries. How is I2a-Din correlated with slavic migrations, when the heartlands of the Slavs (Western Russia) have almost none of it. On top of this, the supposed homeland of the slavs not only lacks I2a-Din, it has relatively low levels of ANY I haplogroup. Russians, Ukrainians, and Belurussians, are as slavic as it gets and they have way lower rates of HP I than Yugoslav people. And Poland which Croats (and some Serbs) claim is the ancestral home of the South Slavs has even lower rates.

    The natural conclusion is that I2a-Din did not arrive with the migration of Slavs, instead it was already long there. Also keep in mind that the most isolated (often mountainous) parts of the Balkans are the ones with the highest HP I composition.

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    Ethnic group
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    The Balkans have a lot of different influences, and Bosnians need considerable isolation factor to get reports like this, wich I think is absent
    Bosnia was quite isolated due to its mountains. Most conquerors went around it in order to avoid having to fight through its dangerous terrain (which was also perfect for guerrilla-style tactics). The Mongols for example sent raiding parties into both Croatia and Serbia, but never to Bosnia.

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    That's not the point. I'm getting tired of people blabbing away with Y-DNA mythologies
    Are you talking about me? Because I wasn't talking about Y-DNA data, but rather autosomal data. And there are no "mythologies" about it. If you weren't talking about me, never mind then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Bosnia was quite isolated due to its mountains. Most conquerors went around it in order to avoid having to fight through its dangerous terrain (which was also perfect for guerrilla-style tactics). The Mongols for example sent raiding parties into both Croatia and Serbia, but never to Bosnia.
    But you are talking about historical times. When I refer to isolation, I mean that thousands of years of acceptable preservation are required, and considering its geographical point, I find it difficult for Bosnia (and more if we check different results from Balkan samples available right now).

    Not comparable to Iberia with two huge genetic barriers: the Mediterranean sea and the Pyrenees. As I said, I wouldn't bet for Bosnians to have retained the highest Paleolithic element. The answer in my opinion, must be searched in Iberia or in the Northernmost, being still Iberia the most likely option. The fact it was the main refuge during the last glacial age, speaks even more in its favour.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Are you talking about me? Because I wasn't talking about Y-DNA data, but rather autosomal data. And there are no "mythologies" about it. If you weren't talking about me, never mind then.
    Well then you'd better take a refresher course in genetic nomenclature. I2 et sim. are Y-DNA markers which imply nothing per se about autosomal values. Autosomal study has not yet progressed to the point of having specific markers (though various hobbyists have been using their own labels).

    You're also a bit behind the latest science as concerns the historicity of the I2a-Din marker. We now have the analyses of Nordtvedt and Verenic (no one has yet come up with effective refutations) which strongly back the view that I2a-Din is very young (not earlier than the first centuries BCE), that it spread to the Balkans with the Slavic expansions of the 6th and 7th cs. (hence at that time it was definitely a "Slavic" marker), and that, independently of percentages, there are far more individuals with that marker (in terms of absolute numbers) among "northern" Slavs than among southern Slavs.

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    First of all, ditto razor. As he says, you shouldn't use "Haplogroup I" if you intend to talk about autosomal DNA, and the I2a-Din debate has been rehashed over and over, on this thread as well as others, with the best analyses still coming from Nordtvedt and Verenich. I've outlined what is necessary for the Paleolithic continuity theory to hold, and it's much less likely than what is necessary for the Slavic theory to hold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Its supposed connection with Slavs is spread by slavophiles in the Balkans who are still hoping to pass as Slavs even after looking at the autosomal DNA data for their countries.
    You're not accusing Nordtvedt and Verenich of being Slavophiles in the Balkans, are you? They're the main ones advancing this theory, at least, the main ones with credibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    How is I2a-Din correlated with slavic migrations, when the heartlands of the Slavs (Western Russia) have almost none of it.
    (1) Western Russia has well over 10% of it and (2) the Slavs who advanced on the Balkans probably didn't come directly from Western Russia, which obviously has a higher R1a:I2a ratio.

    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    On top of this, the supposed homeland of the slavs not only lacks I2a-Din, it has relatively low levels of ANY I haplogroup.
    Irrelevant. I2a-Din is somewhat of an outlier on the Haplogroup I tree, with its closest relative a rare British subclade, and no other major subclades anciently in the same geographic area other than maybe the very distantly related I2a-Cont3. So we don't expect, and don't find, major ancient expansions of other Haplogroup I subclades anywhere in Eastern Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Russians, Ukrainians, and Belurussians, are as slavic as it gets and they have way lower rates of HP I than Yugoslav people.
    I don't understand why everybody thinks that North Slavs are the Slavs. Why can't we think of both North Slavs and South Slavs as two branches off the same trunk, like we think of the varieties of Germanic? That seems like the better default assumption. That trunk, then, would include both R1a and I2a.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post

    I don't understand why everybody thinks that North Slavs are the Slavs. Why can't we think of both North Slavs and South Slavs as two branches off the same trunk, like we think of the varieties of Germanic? That seems like the better default assumption. That trunk, then, would include both R1a and I2a.
    this is because you exclude the other markers which differ between north and south.

    also why do you exclude TRobb theories on I as he and KN had discussions without conclusion
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    this is because you exclude the other markers which differ between north and south.
    Well, there are obviously markers that one possesses that the other doesn't tend to (like N in North Slavs and E in South Slavs). A lot of times these are remnants of the previous dominant population in the areas that got expanded into. I2a-Din and Slavic varieties of R1a don't seem to fit that pattern, however, hence my proposal that both were part of the Slavic trunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sile View Post
    also why do you exclude TRobb theories on I as he and KN had discussions without conclusion
    What does Terry Robb have to say on I2a-Din? I've only read him on I1. I suppose, to be consistent, he would date I2a-Din as about 1.5 times as old as Nordtvedt does? It still wouldn't affect the diversity patterns we see via Verenich, though.

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