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Thread: Bosnians/ ethnic groups there

  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Well, there are obviously markers that one possesses that the other doesn't tend to (like N in North Slavs and E in South Slavs). A lot of times these are remnants of the previous dominant population in the areas that got expanded into. I2a-Din and Slavic varieties of R1a don't seem to fit that pattern, however, hence my proposal that both were part of the Slavic trunk.



    What does Terry Robb have to say on I2a-Din? I've only read him on I1. I suppose, to be consistent, he would date I2a-Din as about 1.5 times as old as Nordtvedt does? It still wouldn't affect the diversity patterns we see via Verenich, though.
    I meant that old yugoslav areas that neighbour Bosnia
    có che un pòpoło no 'l defende pi ła só łéngua el xe prónto par èser s'ciavo

    when a people no longer dares to defend its language it is ripe for slavery.

  2. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Well the vast majority of Vlachs were Latin-speaking descendants of the native populations of the Balkans (Illyrians, Dacians, and Thracians). The vast majority of them were Orthodox and so many adopted the Serbian ethnicity in order to unite with the Serbs (who were also Orthodox) against the Ottomans.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

    But it doesn't even matter what they considered themselves, since all that really matters is the autosomal DNA of a population. Serbs, Bosnians, Vlachs, and Croatians are all overwhelmingly I2a1b-Din in their autosomal DNA, and thats why they are all tall, strong-boned, possess wide shoulders, and above-average muscle mass. There are even theories that the Spartans were descendants of people who were also mostly I2a1b-Din, and that this explains their superior military capabilities.
    But Vlachs - descendants of old Balkan populations and Vlachs Turkic military order are not the same . Spartans were most probably G haplogroup like Macedonians , there are also some interesting letters from Jewish head priest to Spartans that claim common origins. I believe I2a1b is Iranic - Sarmathian and was brought on Balkans by Serbs and Croats and estimated age of I2a1b speaks against it Balkanic origins

  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    Bosnia was an independent kingdom longer than Croatia. Croatia was always Hungary's play-toy and servant. Also, Croatian achievements are NOT your own achievements. Each individual can only take credit for his OWN inventions, ideas, and actions.
    I2a2 has nothing to do with slavs btw. All I haplogroups belong to the Cro-Magnon family. Cro-Magnons were tall, dark haired/eyed, heavy-boned, and muscular and Bosnians have the highest rates of HP I in all of Europe (and therefore are the closest to the original Europeans).
    No Bosnia was not independent kingdom more than Croatia , Bosnia had kingdom only for 100 years ( 1377 - 1463) . Bosnians dont have highest rate of I in Europe , Herzegovina has , and Herzegovina was separate state - Hum / Helm , Travunija / Tribunia and Konavle / Canalia she was under Bosnia for only short period since king Tvrtko to fall of Bosnia ( under 100 years ) .

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    First of all, ditto razor. As he says, you shouldn't use "Haplogroup I" if you intend to talk about autosomal DNA, and the I2a-Din debate has been rehashed over and over, on this thread as well as others, with the best analyses still coming from Nordtvedt and Verenich. I've outlined what is necessary for the Paleolithic continuity theory to hold, and it's much less likely than what is necessary for the Slavic theory to hold.



    You're not accusing Nordtvedt and Verenich of being Slavophiles in the Balkans, are you? They're the main ones advancing this theory, at least, the main ones with credibility.



    (1) Western Russia has well over 10% of it and (2) the Slavs who advanced on the Balkans probably didn't come directly from Western Russia, which obviously has a higher R1a:I2a ratio.



    Irrelevant. I2a-Din is somewhat of an outlier on the Haplogroup I tree, with its closest relative a rare British subclade, and no other major subclades anciently in the same geographic area other than maybe the very distantly related I2a-Cont3. So we don't expect, and don't find, major ancient expansions of other Haplogroup I subclades anywhere in Eastern Europe.



    I don't understand why everybody thinks that North Slavs are the Slavs. Why can't we think of both North Slavs and South Slavs as two branches off the same trunk, like we think of the varieties of Germanic? That seems like the better default assumption. That trunk, then, would include both R1a and I2a.
    But in that case they would have about same ratio betwen R1a : I2a1b and that is not the case

  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bodin View Post
    But in that case they would have about same ratio betwen R1a : I2a1b and that is not the case
    Not necessarily; to take Germanic branches as a parallel example, the levels of R1a (and less so R1b-U106, and even less so I1 and I2a-Cont) vary drastically between the different Germanic branches, even though those combined make up the "default" Germanic Y-DNA signature.

    Clearly, geographically distinct subsets of groups can have different Y-DNA frequencies, and those can be magnified during separate expansions. If I'm right about the Slavs carrying mostly I2a-Din and R1a initially, they could be an (admittedly extreme) example of this pattern.

    I really think you need the same thing to happen for the Sarmatians anyway... to be a branch of Iranians that are I2a-Din dominant requires the same pattern. Again, the question isn't about the relative Y-DNA frequencies, the question is about the locations of the diversity hotspots, and what that tells us. You've yet to find anything that contradicts those that Verenich found, and those that Verenich found match Slavic expansions quite well. It could be a lack of more Eastern samples, I admit, but for the Sarmatians to "win" here, you'll need to find Eastern samples, ancient or modern, that push back the STR dating of I2a-Din as a whole. Until that happens, the Sarmatians just don't seem like a good assumption to me.

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosna501 View Post
    Bosnians are Illyrians they have 50% of I2a (Illyrian)
    and the Name Bosnia is real ancient Illyrian Name BOSONA.

    The Propaganda of our Neighbourgs is Fall,
    we are not Serbs and not Croats we are Bosnians
    and the Bosnian christians are Bosnians too but they
    are victims of the centauryold Propaganda of our Neighbourgs
    and the DNA Tests have shown that all Bosnians are very Similar
    and more similar than with croatia or Serbia.

    The Truth will EVER Win
    No offence but you make some basic mistakes in your approach to I2a2, yes it's true that there is 50% of I2a2 in Bosnia, (In Croatia I2a2 is 42%), but you cannot come here and name that haplogroup as "Illyrian"; because by doing that you are confusing people here and making your own theory as "valid archeology and history". First of all, I2a2 is Paleolithic european haplogroup, it's much older than Illyrians as ethnicity and others ethnicity, and you don't have any right to call it "Illyrian", it's I2a2 HG, yes it's autohtone to area of present day Croatia and Bosnia, that's it, it's autohtone.

    Why do I say that you cannot name it as "Illyrian", because I2a2 doesn't go above 10% in Albanian people, their dominant haplogroup is E1b1b, and E1b1b is dominant on Epirus in last 6000 years, so it's logical to say that not all "Illyrian" tribes shared the same genetic, means Illyrian tribes on Epirus had E1b1b HG and tribes on present day Croatia and Bosnia had I2a2, they were "Illyrian" maybe by culture, and that is also questionable.

    Because by calling it "Illyrian" you are making a "monopol" on that name, which is not fair and not right, not in archeological, history or genetical way, you should rather say it's autohtone haplogroup of area of Bosnia and Croatia and that is it.

  7. #132
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    Why do I say that you cannot name it as "Illyrian",


    Yeah many people don't realize that most ancient civilizations and tribal communities were already hybrids of two or more different genetic and cultural groups/clusters. Just the fact that Illyrians spoke an Indo-European language, destroys the credibility of using "Illyrian" as a genetic group. Illyrians likely had a ruling class which was of Indo-European ancestry, while the rest of the population was likely a mix of neolithic migrants and indigenous paleolithic people.

    Some though claim that the Western Balkans became underpopulated after the fall of the Roman Empire, and that the modern inhabitants of it aren't reflective of its ancient ones. I myself am undecided about this, I am waiting for more autosomal testing of all of Europe; this will make things much clearer to analyse and conclude things.

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    How we can talk about some Illyrians if their hg is only 2000 y.o.?

    Bearers of hg I didn't live in the region of former Yugoslavia 2000 years ago. Anything else is a story for little kids.

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    Well in north Romania we have a village called Bozna.
    http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bozna,_S%C4%83laj
    Compare with:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosna_%28river%29
    The pronunciation is almost identical of Bozna from Romania with Bosna from Bosnia.
    Except s with z .
    http://www.forvo.com/search/%D0%91%D...1%D0%BD%D0%B0/
    Written in cyrilic Bosna is Босна and Bozna from Romania is Бозна.

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    No, this is completelly different.
    Name Bozna is for sure derived from Slavic word: Bog (God).

    BTW, Bosnia is Din-S. There's no Din-S bearers in Romania.

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    i never heard a satisfactory explanation of origin of word Bosna...
    I do not think it is Slavic word, and I also do not recall reading about it being ancient name of the region...

    I think that name might be related to lot of woods...
    e.g. in Dutch "Bos" = woods
    in French "bois"
    in Italian woods = "bosco"

    a possible scenario is that Germanic Goths who rulled area before Slavs had a word for woods same as Dutch do.. "Bos"
    so they would call a region that is largely woods - Bos-nia
    later Slavic settlers would adopt name without knowing its meaning...

    words for regions derived from "woods" are relatively common...
    e.g. large area in Serbia is called "Šumadija" which is derived from Slavic word for woods (šuma)

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    Quote Originally Posted by how yes no 3 View Post
    i never heard a satisfactory explanation of origin of word Bosna...
    I do not think it is Slavic word, and I also do not recall reading about it being ancient name of the region...

    I think that name might be related to lot of woods...
    e.g. in Dutch "Bos" = woods
    in French "bois"
    in Italian woods = "bosco"

    a possible scenario is that Germanic Goths who rulled area before Slavs had a word for woods same as Dutch do.. "Bos"
    so they would call a region that is largely woods - Bos-nia
    later Slavic settlers would adopt name without knowing its meaning...

    words for regions derived from "woods" are relatively common...
    e.g. large area in Serbia is called "Šumadija" which is derived from Slavic word for woods (šuma)
    The name of the geographical region is irrelevant to the origin and/or identity of the people. I.e.
    proving Bosna may have Illyrian roots does not make them Illyrian. Much less that they had an Illyrian conciousness at some time. Historical documentation can prove how the people in that region identified themselves. As such, there were times where they identified themselves as orthodox Serbs. There is no doubt about that.

    Likewise, the fact that the Bosnians may have identified them as Slavs or Serbs does not mean that they don't have (at least in part) Illyrian origin. 'Serb' and 'Illyrian origin' does not have to be an oxymoron.

    Finally, we do not know if I2a2 is Illyrian.

  13. #138
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    some say

    A Gothic tribe Besi moved to the territory of todays Bosnia 80 years before Slavs; the tribe remained after the Slav arrival from the east. The name Bosnia originated from the name of this tribe; personal name Besim is one of the oldest Bosnian names.
    http://www.ex-yupress.com/ljiljan/ljiljan1.html
    Father's Mtdna H95a1
    Grandfather Mtdna T2b24
    Great Grandfather Mtdna T1a1e
    GMother paternal side YDna R1b-S8172
    Mother's YDna R1a-Z282

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by zanipolo View Post
    some say

    A Gothic tribe Besi moved to the territory of todays Bosnia 80 years before Slavs; the tribe remained after the Slav arrival from the east. The name Bosnia originated from the name of this tribe; personal name Besim is one of the oldest Bosnian names.
    http://www.ex-yupress.com/ljiljan/ljiljan1.html
    Again, if at some point of time a tribe has been absorbed by the people living in the region of what is now Bosnia, that doesn't mean that they did not identify themselves as Slavs or Serbs at some later point of time. Many tribes have been absorbed by many peoples at different points of time.

    If you propose this hypothesis as to find an explenation for the etymology of the name, that's much appreciated. However, if you want to prove that Bosniacs were 'always' something else rather than Slavs or Serbs (as the author tries to advocate), then for the above reason I find it rather irrelevant and pseudo-scientific.

    Bosniacs today obviously do not consider them to be Serbs or Croats. That's fine and they have every right to feel as they wish, but they can not change the fact that historically they are essentially a branch of that cultural mainframe which took a different path.

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    1 members found this post helpful.
    Bosniacs today obviously do not consider them to be Serbs or Croats. That's fine and they have every right to feel as they wish, but they can not change the fact that historically they are essentially a branch of that cultural mainframe which took a different path.
    You are equating Balkans Slavs with Croats and Serbs. Minor Slavic tribes already existed in the Western Balkans before the arrival of the Serbs and Croats. Of-course these Slavs would find refuge in Bosnia where the terrain is very mountainous, during the Croat/Serb migrations.

    As for the question of whether the inhabitants of Bosnia were really Croat or really Serb in 1180, it cannot be answered, for two reasons: first, because we lack evidence, and secondly, because the question lacks meaning. We can say that the majority of the Bosnian territory (in 1180) was probably occupied by Croats - or at least, by Slavs under Croat rule - in the seventh century; but that is a tribal label which has little or no meaning five centuries later. The Bosnians were generally closer to the Croats in their religious and political history; but to apply the modern notion of Croat identity (something constructed in recent centuries out of religion, history, and language) to anyone in this period would be an anachronism. All that one can sensibly say about the ethnic identity of the Bosnians is this: they were the Slavs who lived in Bosnia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    You are equating Balkans Slavs with Croats and Serbs. Minor Slavic tribes already existed in the Western Balkans before the arrival of the Serbs and Croats. Of-course these Slavs would find refuge in Bosnia where the terrain is very mountainous, during the Croat/Serb migrations.

    As for the question of whether the inhabitants of Bosnia were really Croat or really Serb in 1180, it cannot be answered, for two reasons: first, because we lack evidence, and secondly, because the question lacks meaning. We can say that the majority of the Bosnian territory (in 1180) was probably occupied by Croats - or at least, by Slavs under Croat rule - in the seventh century; but that is a tribal label which has little or no meaning five centuries later. The Bosnians were generally closer to the Croats in their religious and political history; but to apply the modern notion of Croat identity (something constructed in recent centuries out of religion, history, and language) to anyone in this period would be an anachronism. All that one can sensibly say about the ethnic identity of the Bosnians is this: they were the Slavs who lived in Bosnia.
    I am not equating medieval Balkan Slavs with the 'modern' notion of Serbs and Croats (AND Bulgarians if you will), because the modern notion of nationhood has developed in the last two centuries. Moreover, during that time some groups (like the Bosniacs and Macedonian Slavs) have developed modern identities of their own.

    In medieval times the notion of being Serb, Croat or Bulgarian may have been vague. But, this does not alter the fact that all modern Slavic nations in the Balkans can trace their roots to medieval Croats, Serbs, Bulgarians. It is no coincidence that Ottoman documents, a few centuries after your reference(1180), refer only to Croats, Serbs and Bulgarians. Not simply Slavs and certainly not Bosnians.

    So I guess my point is that, in between the Balkan Slavs and the modern Serbs and Croats, there have also been Serbs and Croats with a vague medieval ethnic connotation. Many ancestors of the Bosniacs belonged to that group.

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    You are equating Balkans Slavs with Croats and Serbs. Minor Slavic tribes already existed in the Western Balkans before the arrival of the Serbs and Croats. Of-course these Slavs would find refuge in Bosnia where the terrain is very mountainous, during the Croat/Serb migrations.

    As for the question of whether the inhabitants of Bosnia were really Croat or really Serb in 1180, it cannot be answered, for two reasons: first, because we lack evidence, and secondly, because the question lacks meaning. We can say that the majority of the Bosnian territory (in 1180) was probably occupied by Croats - or at least, by Slavs under Croat rule - in the seventh century; but that is a tribal label which has little or no meaning five centuries later. The Bosnians were generally closer to the Croats in their religious and political history; but to apply the modern notion of Croat identity (something constructed in recent centuries out of religion, history, and language) to anyone in this period would be an anachronism. All that one can sensibly say about the ethnic identity of the Bosnians is this: they were the Slavs who lived in Bosnia.
    The point you just pass is the change of religion,
    Bosnia become total Slavic losing all the before cultures,
    then at Ottoman times some Slavs (Serbs or Croats) change religion,
    that means they change culture,
    these Slavs create a new culture are the Bosnians,
    in fact the 3 mainly Slavic - Islamic cultures are the original Pomaks, the Albanian Gorani and the Serb-Croat Bosnians,
    Any effort to claim that Bosnians where Slavs from Antiquity or another culture at Medieval, is just not wise,
    Simply Bosnia change culture LAST in Balkans when change of religion happened,
    In Bosnia some families might be from proto-Serbs or from proto-Croats who enter Balkans,

    THE THING THAT YOU MUST UNDERSTAND, IS THAT EXCEPT DALMATIA, ALL THE REST AREA, TODAY'S IS AFTER RELIGION MAINLY NATIONALITIES,

    All modern Balkanic nationalities are after a common thing, some memories, which for Bosnians are mainly late, new, cause before they had common memories with Serbs and Croats,

    Just think, Kossovo, is it a nationality? No it is a state, yet it may become in future,
    same with Bosnia, it become nationality when Islamization start,
    until then it was Serb or Croat,
    ΟΘΕΝ ΑΙΔΩΣ OY EINAI
    ΑΤΗ ΛΑΜΒΑΝΕΙΝ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ
    ΥΒΡΙΣ ΓΕΝΝΑΤΑΙ
    ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΣΗ ΑΚΟΛΟΥΘΟΥΣΙ ΔΕ

    When there is no shame
    Divine blindness conquers them
    Hybris (abuse, opprombium) is born
    Nemesis and punishment follows.

    Εχε υπομονη Ηρωα
    Η τιμωρια δεν αργει.

  18. #143
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    But, this does not alter the fact that all modern Slavic nations in the Balkans can trace their roots to medieval Croats, Serbs, Bulgarians.
    That isn't true, there were many other minor Slavic tribes.

    which for Bosnians are mainly late, new, cause before they had common memories with Serbs and Croats,
    There is no evidence at all that Medieval Bosnians considered themselves either Croat or Serb.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    That isn't true, there were many other minor Slavic tribes.
    Sure, there were subtribes or tribal societies with little ethnic conciousness. Not a rare phenomenon at all. These kind of tribes would have been present all over the balkans in medieval times and not just the Bosnian region. Likewise, not all Slavs in Bosnia belonged to tribal societies. Some considered themselves just as Serb as many serbs in Serbia.

    There is no evidence at all that Medieval Bosnians considered themselves either Croat or Serb.
    I think we should pose the question the other way around, since there is even lesser evidence of distinct medieval Bosnians.

    How can we - in a medieval sense - distinguish the Slavs from Bosnia from the Slavs from Serbia and Croatia?
    The only way to do that is by cherry picking, because under the same criteria we could distinguish slavic tribes in the medieval regions of serbia.

    On the other hand, when one asks how we can distinguish Croats and Serbs in medieval times. That becomes more clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    That isn't true, there were many other minor Slavic tribes.



    There is no evidence at all that Medieval Bosnians considered themselves either Croat or Serb.
    ok, let me 'swallow' what you say,
    I ask you now
    IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT BOSNIANS CONSIDERED THEM SELVES AS LOCAL FROM ANTIQUITY?
    IS THERE EVIDENCE OF AN EXPRESSION OF NATIONALITY BEFORE OTTOMAN EMPIRE?
    (Don't answer with some movements of some rulers in effort to control power)

    except Dalmatia the rest in area are just like Greeks and Turks in many areas
    It is hard to distinguish who is really Turk or Greek especially in agricultural areas cause the main difference is religion, in 1900 you could identify a village by its church if had bells or minarets
    but it was difficult to identify people,

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dianatomia View Post
    Again, if at some point of time a tribe has been absorbed by the people living in the region of what is now Bosnia, that doesn't mean that they did not identify themselves as Slavs or Serbs at some later point of time. Many tribes have been absorbed by many peoples at different points of time.

    If you propose this hypothesis as to find an explenation for the etymology of the name, that's much appreciated. However, if you want to prove that Bosniacs were 'always' something else rather than Slavs or Serbs (as the author tries to advocate), then for the above reason I find it rather irrelevant and pseudo-scientific.

    Bosniacs today obviously do not consider them to be Serbs or Croats. That's fine and they have every right to feel as they wish, but they can not change the fact that historically they are essentially a branch of that cultural mainframe which took a different path.
    whats a serb and a croat to you?

    The only true genetic slavs are poles and ukraine people, the rest are iranic, turkic, thraci etc etc who became slavic only due to linguistic reasons i.e, they leant the slavic tongue.
    I have never found where bosnians originated genetically, but they could be illyrian or thracian as far as I am concerned

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    IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT BOSNIANS CONSIDERED THEM SELVES AS LOCAL FROM ANTIQUITY?
    It is irrelevant. I just said what they were NOT (and there is plenty of evidence for it), not what they were. Due to the rough and isolated terrain, there were likely several different "ethnic identities" within the region of modern Bosnia and Herzegovina. I am just trying to dispel the propaganda that they considered themselves Serb and Croat. Catholics in Bosnia didn't consider themselves Croatian until the 1800s rise of nationalism, neither did most Orthodox (except maybe a few at the Serbian border, and the descendants of Serb border-guards at the Northern border with Croatia).

  23. #148
    Regular Member Templar's Avatar
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    On the other hand, when one asks how we can distinguish Croats and Serbs in medieval times. That becomes more clear.
    That is due to the less mountainous terrain of Serbia and Croatia. Both the Serb and Croat identity started as a small group of people, and then grew as they assimilated other tribes. In Bosnia this wasn't really achieved, although it was starting to. By the time of the Ottoman conquest, a distinct Bosnian identity did form, but it wasn't fully crystallized yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Templar View Post
    That is due to the less mountainous terrain of Serbia and Croatia. Both the Serb and Croat identity started as a small group of people, and then grew as they assimilated other tribes. In Bosnia this wasn't really achieved, although it was starting to. By the time of the Ottoman conquest, a distinct Bosnian identity did form, but it wasn't fully crystallized yet.
    Exactly,
    That is the point, I am pointing,
    the difference among family, tribal and nation,
    in antiquity Dorians and Ionians were different tribals, yet shame nation,
    Bosnia as nation and not as families or tribes, before the Ottoman's are considered mainly as Serb and second as Croat nation, yet the unification movement that created after the change of religion in families, villages tribes create a new nation ID, so maybe Bosnians were not proto-Serb or proto-Croat who enter at 5-6th century AD but until Ottoman empire are considered part of Serb and Croat nations,

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    Regular Member Templar's Avatar
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    Exactly,
    That is the point, I am pointing,
    the difference among family, tribal and nation,
    in antiquity Dorians and Ionians were different tribals, yet shame nation,
    Bosnia as nation and not as families or tribes, before the Ottoman's are considered mainly as Serb and second as Croat nation, yet the unification movement that created after the change of religion in families, villages tribes create a new nation ID, so maybe Bosnians were not proto-Serb or proto-Croat who enter at 5-6th century AD but until Ottoman empire are considered part of Serb and Croat nations
    That wasn't my point. My point was that Serbia and Croatia both created nationhood, by assimilating people in their respective countries. In Bosnia, it was hard for any one group to dominate and assimilate others, due to the mountainous terrain and low population base. The Bosnian identity was already in existence before the Ottoman conquest, but it was a very new identity.

    Stop claiming that they were Serb and Croat (they were especially not Serb, since the vast majority of the population were Catholic). Show evidence, or stop such propaganda. That would be like me saying that all Greeks are in reality Orthodox Albanians.

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