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Thread: Pharaoh Tutankhamun, Akhenaten and Amenhotep III were R1b

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    All scientific papers take time to be published. Protocols have to be followed, and papers have to be submitted to the appropriate boards, (in this case genetic). They do no operated like a forum nor the media (instantly and without scientific proof of what they will eventually publish).

    The Y-dna of King Tut, his father and grandfather match, and their mummy's were found by different archeologists at different time lines. Y-dna cannot be "dug out" in pieces. It can be found in bone, body fluids, saliva, hair, blood, (probably not dandruff.) In this case from 3 different mummy's.

    Physical features, such as looks, hair color, are passed on both via a mother and a father and not just via y-dna. We all have 46 chromosomes, 23 from mother and 23 from father. Y-dna is but one of those chromosomes, and mtdna is the other. y-dna is only passed onto us from father to son. There is no such thing as mixing y-dna or mtdna. It is via autosomal testing of all our genes that we find the "mixing" of the other 22 chromosomes from each parent. There are "mutations" on the y-dna and mtdna, that can even happen between a father and son, and mtdna has few mutations in many hundreds of years (at times), so this is one reason y-dna is used for genealogical purposes.

    One needs to go to information on the web or "other" sources and research when haplogroup R1b1b2 became it's own subclade from the previous parent R clade (in descending order. Try ISOGG and search haplogroup R and it's phylogenetic tree. Or even Wikipedia.


    Melusine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    The Y-dna of King Tut, his father and grandfather match, and their mummy's were found by different archeologists at different time lines. Y-dna cannot be "dug out" in pieces. It can be found in bone, body fluids, saliva, hair, blood, (probably not dandruff.) In this case from 3 different mummy's.
    Melusine
    Ok, 3 related mummies with same Y-DNA branch found by different archeologist kind off discard dandruff hypotheses as not likely...So, question is how did R1b branch that now exist in Europe only manage to become genetics of ruling elite in Egypt...

    is there anything in ancient history like between 3500BC and 1500 BC about foreign people (not necessarily from Europe) actually conquering Egypt? ("sea people" were later and never managed to conquer Egypt, but perhaps someoone before them did)

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    how yes no,

    We will have to "wait" and hear from the "experts", on this one. Once they confirm the haplogroup, they will work or are working with Population geneticists to draw some conclusions as to how this hg got to Egypt and when.

    The world population 2000 years ago is estimated between 200-300 million persons, and the most populous numbers were in China and India (as they are still today), then Africa , and the Chinese and the Africans do not have the same haplogroups as people from the Middle East, Europe, etc as a whole. This leaves a small gene pool in the areas where people migrated from to the less populated areas of the world (like Europe)..

    Melusine

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    But many geneticists complain that the team used inappropriate analysis techniques. Far from being definitive, the study is "not seen as rigorous or convincing", says Eline Lorenzen of the Center for GeoGenetics at the Natural History Museum in Copenhagen, Denmark. "Many of us in the DNA community are surprised that this has been published."
    ...
    Zink and his colleagues used a genetic fingerprinting approach that involves testing variable regions of the genome called microsatellites, which are made up of short sequence repeats. The numbers of repeats vary between individuals, and by comparing the number of repeats across several microsatellites it is possible to work out whether or not individuals are related.

    However, researchers rarely attempt this approach with ancient samples because the original DNA is likely to be degraded, and dwarfed by modern contamination. It's more common to sequence mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) – cells contain around a thousand times more copies of mtDNA than of genomic DNA, improving chances of finding large intact samples.

    Zink and Pusch defend their choice, saying that they took extensive precautions to guard against contamination. For instance, they extracted samples from deep inside the mummies' bones, and genotyped lab staff to rule out contamination.
    ......
    But others doubt the precautions were sufficiently rigorous. Robert Connolly of the University of Liverpool, UK, who carried out blood typing of Tutankhamun's mummy in the 1960s, argues that it would be difficult to reach deep enough inside Tutankhamun's thin, fragile bones – or those of the two fetuses – to reach uncontaminated material.
    ....
    Lorenzen adds that many people – not just the Hawass team – have handled the mummies since they were first unwrapped. The authors should have tested non-human samples from the tombs as negative controls, she says.

    To judge the quality of the team's results, Lorenzen and others are asking for access to raw data not included in the Journal of the American Medical Association paper – but Zink is reluctant to oblige, fearing the data would spark "a lot of arguing" over technicalities.
    ...
    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...-ancestry.html

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    Exclamation

    http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/08...than-egyptian/

    The article's title is obviously totally sensationalist, and there is some inaccuracies in it (such as the claim that R1b entered Europe in the Neolithic, which we now know to have been debunked as well), as would be expected by the press, but at least we have the verification that Pharao Tut was indeed R1b.

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    Yes, and he belonged to the European branch as it is specificated. This haplogroup is very widespread, incredible if we consider all branches.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Yes, and he belonged to the European branch as it is specificated. This haplogroup is very widespread, incredible if we consider all branches.
    The question is this: how did Pharao Tutankhamun end up with that Y-haplogroup?!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Yes, and he belonged to the European branch as it is specificated. This haplogroup is very widespread, incredible if we consider all branches.
    Well, it only specifies R1b1a2 (presumably R1b-M269), which could still be L11- (non-European). Is M269 the farthest downstream they've tested? Egyptians have something like 2% of R1b-M269 nowadays, although I don't know if any is of the L11- Anatolian-type variety.

    Edit: To answer myself, briefly, that DYS393=13 strongly indicates L11+. Hmm...

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    Well, if they say it's European must be for some reason...they compare it clearly with the R1b you can find in Spain or France. However, we can doubt, I also thought in what you say, and it's posible that due to a problem of ignorance they compare it with the European R1b's, wich have nothing to do with other clades.

    For the moment I'll trust them, until there is an evidence showing the contrary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    Well, if they say it's European must be for some reason...they compare it clearly with the R1b you can find in Spain or France. However, we can doubt, I also thought in what you say, and it's posible that due to a problem of ignorance they compare it with the European R1b's, wich have nothing to do with other clades.
    Right, I was just looking at the STRs (they've got 16 now) and they look European, with DYS393=13 being particularly indicative.

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    Ok, it seems the information is truly reliable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taranis View Post
    The question is this: how did Pharaoh Tutankhamun end up with that Y-haplogroup?!
    It's intriguing at least. I don't know much about Egyptian history, but I looked up some references and this is what I found.

    Tutankhamun (Nebkheperure) 1334 - 1325 - King Tut BC

    Around 1500BC there was a big change in Egypt, and be important enough to start a new era called New Kingdom:
    THE NEW KINGDOM


    EIGHTEENTH DYNASTY
    Ahmose (Nebpehtyre) 1539 - 1514 BC
    Amenhotep I (Djeserkare) 1514 - 1493 BC
    Thutmose I (Akheperkare) 1493 - 1481 BC
    Thutmose II (Akheperenre) 1491 - 1479 BC
    Hatshepsut (Maatkare) 1473 - 1458 BC
    Thutmose III (Menkheperre) 1504 - 1450 BC
    Amenhotep II (Akheperure) 1427 - 1392 BC
    Thutmose IV (Menkheperure) 1419 - 1386 BC
    Amenhotep III (Nebmaatre) 1382 - 1344 BC
    Amenhotep IV / Akhenaten 1350 - 1334 BC
    Smenkhkare (Ankhkheperure) 1336-1334 BC
    Tutankhamun (Nebkheperure) 1334 - 1325 - King Tut BC
    Ay (Kheperkheperure) 1325 - 1321 BC
    Horemheb (Djeserkheperure) 1323 - 1295 BC
    http://www.lost-civilizations.net/an...dynasties.html



    Expansion of IE were connected with extensive use of horses and chariots.
    The chariot, together with the horse itself, was introduced to Egypt by the Hyksos invaders in the 16th century BC and undoubtedly contributed to their military success. In the remains of Egyptian and Assyrian art there are numerous representations of chariots, from which it may be seen with what richness they were sometimes ornamented. The chariots of the Egyptians and Assyrians, with whom the bow was the principal arm of attack, were richly mounted with quivers full of arrows. The Egyptians invented the yoke saddle for their chariot horses in c. 1500 BC. The best preserved examples of Egyptian chariots are the four specimens from the tomb of Tutankhamun.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chariot

    Who were the Hyksos that introduced chariots to Egypt?
    Traditionally,[who?] only the Fifteenth Dynasty rulers are called Hyksos. The Greek name "Hyksos" was coined by Manetho to identify the Fifteenth Dynasty of Asiatic rulers of northern Egypt. In Egyptian Hyksos means "ruler(s) of foreign countries", however, Manetho mistranslated Hyksos as "Shepherd Kings".


    It has been claimed,[12] that new revolutionary methods of warfare ensured the Hyksos the ascendancy in their influx into the new emporia being established in Egypt's delta and at Thebes in support of the Red Sea trade. Herbert E. Winlock describes new military hardware, such as the composite bow, as well as the improved recurve bow and most importantly the horse-drawn war chariot, as well as improved arrowheads, various kinds of swords and daggers, a new type of shield, mailed shirts, and the metal helmet.[12]

    I've learned that New Kingdom started at the time when Hyksos were expelled actually. Surprisingly there is no change in royal linage.
    There was no distinct break in the line of the royal family between the 17th and 18th dynasties. The historian Manetho, writing much later during the Ptolemaic dynasty, considered the final expulsion of the Hyksos after nearly a century and the restoration of native Egyptian rule over the whole country a significant enough event to warrant the start of a new dynasty.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_I

    I know it doesn't prove anything, but I hope it has some entertaining value. ;)

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    Oh, I revised Dienekes' blog and found this post:

    iGENEA's King Tut claims

    iGENEA is a Swiss ancestry analysis company which I had deservedly mocked a couple of years ago because of its ridiculous claims. In my experience, commercial ancestry analysis outfits are often plagued by either of two problems:

    1. They offer too little value, such as a breakdown of an individual into the categories of "Europe", "Asia", and "Africa".
    2. They pretend to offer too much value, such as the ability to connect one's Y-chromosome with Old Testament priests, numerous ancient "tribes", or to break down one's genome to a very fine detail that is not commensurate with the power of the DNA evidence they collect (e.g., with the CODIS markers)

    iGENEA is a great example of #2.

    Now, they have done it again, pretending to be able to link men with a particular R1b1a2haplotype with King Tut. Note that the Y-chromosome of King Tut has never been published, and speculation about it is based on some screencaps from a Discovery Channel documentary that may or may not belong to the Pharaoh:
    iGENEA was able to reconstruct the Y-DNA profile of Tutankhamun, his father Akhenaten and his grandfather Amenhotep III with the help of a recording of the Discovery Channel. The astonishing result:
    Indeed, the whole business of mummy DNA is highly suspect, as Jo Marchant has covered quite comprehensively in Nature News; see also King Tut's DNA in doubt.

    The original paper in the JAMA was remarkable for its non-publishing of crucial data necessary to validate the claims within it. This is yet another argument against the flawed peer-review system whose main objective, it seems, is to take in money for journals and dole out prestige to authors, and not to do actual science.

    Personally, I'm against most regulation of personal genetics products, unless there is a clear and present medical danger arising from their use: I don't trust government bureaucrats and paternalistic know-it-all scientists to tell us what deserves to be marketed and what does not.

    On the other hand, the absence of regulation makes the community's responsibility to speak out against bad products all the more important: such products can only be identified if there is an active and broad group of informed individuals willing to put out the relevant facts out there, and let potential customers decide for themselves.


    I don't know what to think now. ¿Was it really clear for you, sparkey, that Tut's Y-DNA it's typical in Europe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Knovas View Post
    I don't know what to think now. ¿Was it really clear for you, sparkey, that Tut's Y-DNA it's typical in Europe?
    I don't know what to think, either, to be honest. Good job finding that Dienekes post, Knovas. I guess I shouldn't assume that iGENEA actually credibly has so many of King Tut's markers. Maciamo did point out earlier, though, that three of the markers actually were published, including DYS393=13. We would expect 12 there if it was the "Armenian modal haplotype" as I had suggested it might be, with 13 usually reflecting European-type R1b. Still, we need to be cautious.

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    Incredible!

    I believe that R1b is very tough, talented and adventurous haplogroup.

    But I don't understand 1 thing. Why are (were) most South European kings (Spain and France) G2a and Nordic kings R1b. Because in south(west) Europe there's more hg R1b than in north(east) Europe.

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    Goga, you must be right, Pharaoh came from the north, see


    bsecher.pagesperso-orange.fr/genetique/Busby_R1b%28xL11%29.jpg

    Its a map showing the more ancient R1b in europe the L11 distribution. We can see a link from north to south along the amber trade route.
    Last edited by koni; 17-10-12 at 14:07.

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    But I don't understand 1 thing. Why are (were) most South European kings (Spain and France) G2a and Nordic kings R1b. Because in south(west) Europe there's more hg R1b than in north(east) Europe.
    Goga, I hope you know that the French and Spanish royal houses are descended
    from the Capet dynasty, starting with Hugh Capet, a Frank, and that most other
    European royal dynasties also have their origin in Germany?
    Therefore it is not recommandable to compare the royal dynasty-DNA to that of the
    country which they rule.

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    Pharaoh Tutankamun Y-DNA pattern has a significant correlation to "Wettin Man".
    This is an amazing discovery!!!
    I had discovered that the Y-DNA 16 marker pattern is documented on the iGENEA website.
    I then compared it against Wettin Man ..... here is the result. There is a GD = 9 between the two samples (using only 16 markers) ..... however it is actually a lot closer than this as just two markers are responsible for GD = 5 i.e. DYS456 = 15 for King Tut vs 18 for Wettin Man and DYS458 = 16 for King Tut vs 18 for Wettin Man.
    These two markers have very high mutation rates ..... so there being a large GD between these two samples for these two markers is fully consistent noting that King Tut ruled in 1332BC vs Wettin Man who is alive today.
    Additionally King Tut is R1b1a2 whereas Wettin Man is R1b1a2a1a1a.
    The next steps here need to be to have a deeper dive with King Tut's Y-DNA to increase the markers up to 67 markers and get a Deep Clade test as well - so that the comparison between the ancient Wettin line (which dates from Dedi in 950 AD) and King Tut can be fully confirmed.
    Importantly, the same Y-DNA result was also found for King Tut's father King Akhenaten and his grandfather King Amenhotep III. Also they had red hair, tufts still exist on the mummified bodies.
    More details about Wettin Man are on my webpage and associated facebook account.
    Thank you,
    Brad (the-kings-son.com)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Egypt's 18th dynasty inaugurated the New Kingdom after the Second Intermediate period, when the Hyksos ("foreign rulers") took over power between 1650 and 1570 BCE. It is very possible that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin, which could be Hittite or of other Indo-European origin. The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors associated with the mercenary Mitanni. This strongly suggest an Indo-European origin indeed, as the steppe people were mounted archers, and the Mitanni are of proven IE origin.
    Also, the Hyksos worshipped a storm god associated with the Egyptian god Seth. As far as I understand storm and especially thunder gods are strongly associated with Indo-European beliefs.

    The Egyptians, according to a papyrus, hated the Hyksos for their worship of this thunder god because Seth is the killer of Osiris in Egyptian mythology and as such wasn't a loved god.

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    The "Hyksos" where middle eastern invaders who would end up as far south as the gates of Egypt (Sinai peninsula), they would have been pre-cursors to the Hittites.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    The Egyptians have tested autosomal and Y-DNA markers of three Pharaohs of the 18th dynasty : Amenhotep III, his son Akhenaten and grandson Tutankhamun. The aim was to determine the cause of death of Tutankhamun, who died at age 19. It appears to have been malaria.
    New, interesting theory.

    http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow...171906351.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ike View Post
    Thanks for that...the funny comments following the story are great...:)

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    Yes, some of them very creative :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by epoch View Post
    Also, the Hyksos worshipped a storm god associated with the Egyptian god Seth. As far as I understand storm and especially thunder gods are strongly associated with Indo-European beliefs.

    The Egyptians, according to a papyrus, hated the Hyksos for their worship of this thunder god because Seth is the killer of Osiris in Egyptian mythology and as such wasn't a loved god.
    Seth was nothing else than Osiris himself or Osiris's (opposite) Astral brother in the realm called Nuv or Nut... And Nut is Norse NiflHeim or Slavic NAV (Hell, Astral realm, realm of shadows)... praNav ("OMkara") in Vedas. Osiris was Aser or Vedic Asura ("against Surya"), lord of the Underworld, enemy of Devas (gods)...

    His cult was originally almost insignificant as was the cult of Seth (later Satan in Bible), before the original Vedic Egyptian Trinity of Raa (Rama) - Heru (Scythian & Slavic god Hors or Horo) & Hathor (Ostara/Mokosh/Astarte/Ishtar/Semele,...) still at the time of pharaoh "Scorpion". Consequently his father became "Geb", which was a occult transliteration of Vedic Shiva (Geb; Djeb; Djev; Jiva; Shiva) which represents "Light" and his "mother" called Nuv or Nut (read my notes above it), which was representing "Darkness"...

    Moses himself was a priest of Osiris. (all so called "Biblical stories about his 'royal egyptian' origin, his life as a mathematician are occult lies, perverted truth; to hide the real truth about the whole stuff behind this "curtain")
    http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/manetho_hyksos.htm

    his real (Egyptian) name was Asarseb (the Greek transliteration became "Osarsiph"), which means OSIRIS's "father" (light, carrier); "devoted to Osiris" (note that the official explanation about "Geb" being ""lame one" is false, to hide his real background). Moses was literally one of the earliest "apostles" to the inverted BRahmanic (=Abrahamic) religions which came from Egypt in many new cults; Christianity, Judaism and Islam (as Christian derivative, invented in Vatican for "pagan" arabs" (already worshiping Allah - allah is much older god than several brainwashed Abrahamic preachers think) (Sabeans(another "offspring" of the people of Shiva, worshiping Asuras ), Meccans, - and as a plan B if the Christianity wouldn't be successful in Russia & Ukraine...) So Nuv (transliteration of Nav; Nifl-Heim; from which also derived later occult form about "Nephilims" (Navins) and Rephaims (=occult version of Vedic Ravanas ("Raphael angel", etc, etc)) and Geb (Shiva) with the snake's head were both rulers over the realm called Patala (Nagaloka) in Vedic scriptures...
    Shiva's phallus called Lingashtakam became the Osiris's chopped phallus and consequently the center of the Vatican city at "saint peter's square"


    Circumcism in Abrahamic religions is nothing else than an inverted remain of the ancient Shiva's cult...


    This includes the Islamic "Kaaba" (Cube), where people go around it in inverted direction than Hindus...

    So this is the place, where your Abrahamic cults came from... Egypt was nothing else than "Old Jerusalem", this was the place where the Christianity was created out of the cult of "Horus & Osiris", also known as Egyptian KRST; KRST became the new KRSTOS (Χριστός) or "Kristos" (Christ) - Shiva (inverted Osiris (Asura)), human parasite, a demon from the realm of inverted "Duat" (Devet; девять Deus; "Ninth" land of Yggdrasil, realm of gods... taking over the original pantheons and demanding human victims as any Mayan, Aztec reptilian 'gods' of human sacrifice...

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...de_la_luna.jpg
















    This is the god (Bacchus/Osiris/Asura).. He was born approximatelly 14 500 years ago in Sri Lanka according to some Roman sources (about the origin of Bacchus/Osiris), which was in Vedas described as the land of king & demon "Ravana" (Ramayana story)), before his arrival to India and Egypt...

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    Maciamo's Opening Post contains a misinformation - namely a claim that the 18th Dynasty was of Hyksos origin.

    This is false, the 18th Dynasty was of native Egyptian origin, the 15th Dynasty were the Hyksos:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiftee...nasty_of_Egypt

    The first pharaoh of the 18th Dynasty - Ahmose I - was actually the one who expelled (!) foreign Hyksos rulers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighte..._Dynasty_XVIII

    So if Tutankhamun really had R1b-M269, then it is actually a point against Indo-European origins of this marker.

    ==================

    As for the ethnic identity of the Hyksos who established the 15th Dynasty:

    They were either just Semitic-speakers alone, or a multi-ethnic mix of Semites and Hurrians.

    Their ruling class could be Indo-Iranian, but evidence for this is very scarce (unlike in case of Hurrian Mitanni).

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