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View Poll Results: Do you want Britain out of the EU?

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  • Yes, go be American's lap dog!

    9 33.33%
  • No, we like you tea drinking freaks!

    18 66.67%
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Thread: The British attitude towards Europe?

  1. #76
    Elite member Antigone's Avatar
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    You've all become a bother, and are just as bad as eachother. The constant disruption of any topic with this BS is extremely annoying.

  2. #77
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    I agree with wellington!
    Get the brits out of here and Maciamo please remove the EU flag from Wellington's post it is offensive to me too.
    I like the Brits (I lived there for one year and i loved it) but if they dont want to be part of my family, if they spit in the hand I extend in peace, my family does not need them the least bit.

    We continental Europeans along with the holy and proud people of Ireland who evangilized our great continent will recreate the empire of Charlemagne!!!!

    A moi Montjoie et Saint-Denis sus a la Perfide Albion!!!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrand View Post
    I agree with wellington!
    Get the brits out of here and Maciamo please remove the EU flag from Wellington's post it is offensive to me too.
    I like the Brits (I lived there for one year and i loved it) but if they dont want to be part of my family, if they spit in the hand I extend in peace, my family does not need them the least bit.

    We continental Europeans along with the holy and proud people of Ireland who evangilized our great continent will recreate the empire of Charlemagne!!!!

    A moi Montjoie et Saint-Denis sus a la Perfide Albion!!!!!
    I fear that it is not the Empire of Charlemagne that is on Europe's horizon but something rather more African and Muslim.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrand View Post
    We continental Europeans along with the holy and proud people of Ireland who evangilized our great continent will recreate the empire of Charlemagne!!!!!
    We continental Europeans? Drop the plural and speak for yourself please. Thankfully one person's opinion is not representative of all of Europe!

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    Personally I think the EU, like the UN, are big failures. There are too many countries in Europe that have agendas that are incompatible with other countries. I believe The UK should break away from the EU.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wellington View Post
    A major player in our own demise as a sovereign nation.
    Your comment amused me, though I imagine that you realise that we can never return to the days of the traditional 'Westphalian' model of the autonomous nation-state. As far as Britain is concerned, international regimes like the EU are making decisions on our behalf that the majority of the UK population plainly do not want, such as allowing unfettered immigration; the free movement of economic migrants into our country, which has resulted in mass colonisation from Poland and other eastern European countries. This has placed a massive strain upon our services- National Health Service, Schools, Local Councils etc, not to mention pushed down wages and added dramatically to the already high levels of ethnic tension in the country.

    However, even if Britain did leave the EU, any elected government would still do the bidding of the USA because all British governments secretly fear America. This goes back to at least the Suez Crisis in the 1950s when the American President threatened to devalue British currency if our troops were not pulled out. If there really is a 'special relationship' between the UK and the USA it is surely one of servant and master. One reflects that it is only very recently that Britain has paid off a huge financial debt to America- their military assistance in WW2 did not come cheaply. Having said that, were it not for the USA the entire UK would probably now be speaking German.

  7. #82
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    @Yorkie

    Are you Al Murray by any chance?


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    Quote Originally Posted by edao View Post
    @Yorkie

    Are you Al Murray by any chance?

    I'm built upon similar lines, son. Except I have more finely-chiselled features [Norman influence] and a full head of hair.

  9. #84
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    The way the anglo-saxons operate is sometimes quite puzzling to us French.
    The French can be acused of many faults but it has always been an independently minded people.

    The UK on the other hand in spite of having been on the top of world at the head of a mighty empire, of having stood alone against Hitler, now will never dare to tell Americans that their farts smell too. They would cut their tongues before they dare oppose a US decision.

    Australians are exactly the same way. What ever America says is the word of God.

    As for America, they are so scared of Israel that they would use their own flag to wipe bird shit off the windshield of Natanyahu's limo.

    So I guess Israel is the ultimate overlord in this little game but for us this dependency is very hard to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrand View Post
    The way the anglo-saxons operate is sometimes quite puzzling to us French.
    The French can be acused of many faults but it has always been an independently minded people.

    The UK on the other hand in spite of having been on the top of world at the head of a mighty empire, of having stood alone against Hitler, now will never dare to tell Americans that their farts smell too. They would cut their tongues before they dare oppose a US decision.

    Australians are exactly the same way. What ever America says is the word of God.

    As for America, they are so scared of Israel that they would use their own flag to wipe bird shit off the windshield of Natanyahu's limo.

    So I guess Israel is the ultimate overlord in this little game but for us this dependency is very hard to understand.
    Bertrand,
    Some of your delightful French ways puzzle us too- eating Ortolan, snails etc, your truly terrible popular music, and the way you drive to name but three. However, thankyou very much for Proust, Camus, Sartre, Berlioz, Debussy, Satie, Boxe Francaise-Savate and your matchless wines and cheeses.

    I know what you mean about the kow-towing to America, but that is the government, not the bulk of the British people. I am against a facile anti-Americanism, but at the same time I believe very much in what you call being 'independently-minded' too. Believe me, Bertrand, many, many British people are often uneasy about the way our successive Prime Ministers [particularly Blair] roll over and beg for the USA. Many of us can see that the US foreign policy often consists of blundering about and trying to force liberal democracy down the throats of distant peoples who never asked for it in the first place. The slavishness on behalf of our government really comes back to the fear factor I mentioned before. Remember Suez- the US government threatened to bankrupt the UK. I would not blame Israel in such a reductionist way, but certainly, the pro-Israel lobby in the USA is massively powerful though.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by bertrand View Post
    The way the anglo-saxons operate is sometimes quite puzzling to us French.
    The French can be acused of many faults but it has always been an independently minded people.

    The UK on the other hand in spite of having been on the top of world at the head of a mighty empire, of having stood alone against Hitler, now will never dare to tell Americans that their farts smell too. They would cut their tongues before they dare oppose a US decision.

    Australians are exactly the same way. What ever America says is the word of God.

    As for America, they are so scared of Israel that they would use their own flag to wipe bird shit off the windshield of Natanyahu's limo.

    So I guess Israel is the ultimate overlord in this little game but for us this dependency is very hard to understand.
    Yes, I agree. Poor old Australia eh.

    Unfortunately state generated nationalism has driven Australia into the realms of a fantasy land where they think they have more importance in world affairs than they really do. An bowing and scraping to the biggest kid on the block in an effort not to be left out is part of that, it is quite embarrassing that what was once an indepentantly minded and unique country has turned itself into in order to be seen to matter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antigone View Post
    Yes, I agree. Poor old Australia eh.

    Unfortunately state generated nationalism has driven Australia into the realms of a fantasy land where they think they have more importance in world affairs than they really do. An bowing and scraping to the biggest kid on the block in an effort not to be left out is part of that, it is quite embarrassing that what was once an indepentantly minded and unique country has turned itself into in order to be seen to matter.
    I don't think about Australia very often, but when I do I slightly shiver. Maybe not in my lifetime but I have a feeling that one day China will invade and take Australia's vast open spaces for its surplus population. Factions in Japanese politics at the beginning of the 20th century often fantasised about doing so, but I think that China is more likely. By then the Chinese may possess a force majeure that none can stand up to. Oh well...just a pleasant thought for the day...

  13. #88
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    It is probably Australia's (and NZ's) biggest fear Yorkie, being overtaken by the vast populations of not just China but Asia. So, of course, keeping the US on side is it's security blanket and (as was proved during WWII) Britain is too far away to be a great help when push comes to shove.

    Although, it is not land China wants (possibly in the future, as you say) it is Australia's natural resources. Mining is the only thing that has kept Australia out of the economic downturn and China is it's biggest customer. Australia supplies 342 million metric tons of iron ore per year, half of which goes to China. Australia holds 23% of the worlds uranium reserves and supplies 16% of the world's production. 258.5 million tons of coal is mined per year and 75% is exported to East Asia. That's not all but you can get my drift........

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    Quote Originally Posted by let`s talk View Post
    They have the worst food in Europe and they look ugly. The rest is not important.
    That's right, I find It absurd to bring down the beauty standards of the EU by keeping the Brits in. Both Brits and Irish should no longer be considered European, they are the ugliest in europe by far, and dont get me started with their food..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radek View Post
    That's right, I find It absurd to bring down the beauty standards of the EU by keeping the Brits in. Both Brits and Irish should no longer be considered European, they are the ugliest in europe by far, and dont get me started with their food..
    Well heres a few British and Irish for you to check out. Colin Farrell..Eugene Simon..Orlando Bloom..Gerard Butler David Essex (mid 70s) Marty Pellow..Pierce Brosnan..Saoirse Ronan..Emilia Fox..Sarah Bolger..Andrea Corr..Gwenth Paltrow.. Emma Watson..Anne Hathaway..Catherine Zeta Jones. Ugly?? Maybe some are jealous of the talent and beauty Britain and Ireland turn out!!

  16. #91
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    Go! many of those here seemed shockedcracking as they entered the closed or censored wonderful thread of the Celts of Iberia.Do we use different yardsticks?



  17. #92
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    Hope This why I wished everyone would get DNA tested. It would cut down on a country's superiority complex when results started rolling in. Most would find statements like the above like one of our old sayings "thats the pot calling the kettle black". Even Hitlers DNA proved he was no Nordic Knight. I find all of Europe a flow of beautiful Ladies

  18. #93
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    2 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    Hope This why I wished everyone would get DNA tested. It would cut down on a country's superiority complex when results started rolling in. Most would find statements like the above like one of our old sayings "thats the pot calling the kettle black". Even Hitlers DNA proved he was no Nordic Knight. I find all of Europe a flow of beautiful Ladies
    Well I always say everyone is entitled to their opinion L.D. but that remark was just a stupid and ill-founded one. (The one by Radek) :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ^ lynx ^ View Post
    I don't care what is the best/worst for the UK or which are their reasons to dislike/like the EU. If the majority of british want to leave the EU they should be allowed to do it.
    I think this is the key here.

    We could have a flame-war about various reasons why or why not the UK should stay or leave, but democracy is the key. If a government asks their population via referendum to make a decision, it should unquestionably adhere to what is decided. Now i don't trust in the slightest that the EU is democratically sound, as it has proved a number of times, but neither do i think the UK government is any better.
    Although i am for independence from the EU, i would urge that a referendum takes place as soon as possible, especially as we were never asked if we wanted to be part of the EU, only whether we wanted to be part of an economic union (which i would support to a certain degree). To this end, i'm sure i'd be upset if the votes came out in favour of staying in the EU, but i would just have to bite the bullet and deal with it, at the end of the day a question has been asked and answered officially.
    I hold no animosity to the people of the European continent, and think that with close cooperation, particularly in the sciences and trade we could achieve a lot. But if the politicians over there are as bad as over here, then i would not wish them to get any more power than they already have in regards to political, fiscal and cultural union.
    I'm sure you on the continent are fed up of our wavering opinions, and so am i, if we end up out of it, then both parties know roughly where they are at, and can act accordingly. If we are in, then we should go the full way for the sake of being a team player, as that is what is needed.

    Personally i hope and pray that the second of those two is not the case, i think the speed at which it has developed, and the blaze attitude to democracy that is often the case does not bode well for a future Europe. I think what is most frightening is the Empire-building attitude that seems to be coming through so often, what can't be taken by force is being taken by coercion and politics. I know that will sound contradictory coming from a British person, but i don't think another European Empire is going to end well...look at all the previous ones, especially considering the astounding rate at which we are developing these days.

    Kind Regards,
    Sam Jackson

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    Quote Originally Posted by hope View Post
    Well heres a few British and Irish for you to check out. Colin Farrell..Eugene Simon..Orlando Bloom..Gerard Butler David Essex (mid 70s) Marty Pellow..Pierce Brosnan..Saoirse Ronan..Emilia Fox..Sarah Bolger..Andrea Corr..Gwenth Paltrow.. Emma Watson..Anne Hathaway..Catherine Zeta Jones. Ugly?? Maybe some are jealous of the talent and beauty Britain and Ireland turn out!!
    why to quote celebrities? Not only they are unrepresentative for the general country's population but also overrated, because in continental europe/scaninavia you fin way prettier people than them on daily basis. Anyways I was talkin about the average joe walking downtown in any random british/irish city. Ask in any community of travelers online who are the ugliest europeans, they mostly will confirm you what I've been saying.

    Brits and Irish are the fattest in europe aswell.

    source:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11935525

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radek View Post
    why to quote celebrities? Not only they are unrepresentative for the general country's population but also overrated, because in continental europe/scaninavia you fin way prettier people than them on daily basis. Anyways I was talkin about the average joe walking downtown in any random british/irish city. Ask in any community of travelers online who are the ugliest europeans, they mostly will confirm you what I've been saying.

    Brits and Irish are the fattest in europe aswell.

    source:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11935525
    I gave you a good selection of people from around Britain and Ireland..they are also talented. Show me the study that says it has been proven Irish and British people are ugly. Show me at the same time the study that says blonde Germans are not aggressive but dark ones are as you lately stated in another post :)

  22. #97
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    1 members found this post helpful.
    I wonder what Radek's real ethnicity is.

  23. #98
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    Good intuition Mzungu, you might be up to something. Radek's IP address says Valdivia, Chile.

  24. #99
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    Response to Sam Jackson:

    ... the speed at [EU] has developed, and the blaze attitude to democracy ...
    The Union trace it's roots to 1951 making the development reach just over sixty years, making it a long and slowly tested cooperation. I appreciate that this is not what you refer to, but I want to include that when considering - in my view - the astounding reach of humility and strength for these former enemies to begin cooperation so shortly after - and because of - the war in this way. The now twenty year old actual European Union has been speedy as per economic integration and enlargement. It is of course the breakup of the Soviet union that facilitated this change of pace.

    I don't agree that there is a blaze attitude or lack of democratic will in the EU, but I think I understand where you are coming from and I can think of a number of things you might present as examples of just that, but I think one must appreciate that to build a democratic cooperation of international democracy like we are doing, we can only do that step by step, and for great lengths the member states will only carefully share parts of what has previously been the sole privilege of the national state. This means that the EU can only develop and be as democratic as the member states are prepared to let it be, and as a consequence, for the EU institutions to become more democratic, the more membership governments have to give up control like vetoes or ceding powers to the commonly elected European parliament.

    Building an regional cooperation with international democracy to include a common civilization like this has never been done before, and we don't know how it is supposed to look like. We have to find common solutions for common needs in an increasingly multipolar world that - outside of Europe - is not sleeping or static.

    I think that if we try to copy old solutions to new political situations we have not gained that much. One can argue differences between a federation and a confederation, but I don't actively support a European federation. I don't believe we need that, and I actually think it could be detrimental to the European idea. Even so, in the end, I can live with any solution that caters to democratic values and the safety and stability of this European family.

    I am a big supporter of a confederation and I think that we can speak with one voice in where it's needed, in unison in some and separately in other areas. I think there are too many naysayers in European politics for democracy to be abandoned. There is no lack of criticism in the EU; a key commodity in democracy.

    But as democracy means eternal compromise and no inventions are really new but new combinations of old ones, I think we can expect a steady mix of disappointments and surprises.

    To me, a Union without the British countries is unthinkable - pretty or not. However, I think we must accept that we can't expect that all countries must move in unison, but to let some countries deepen their cooperation in different areas where others might follow. I understand that this means a risk of developing and creating differences that could come into conflict with the interests of the whole which would be contradictory of the project to begin with, as well as a risk of creating distance to some countries "left behind" who have increasing difficulties or willingness to "catch up". For that I think we must be wary.

    I don't think that England will leave the EU, but I do understand that there are opinions of not having had the chance to vote for membership in a referendum, like most countries did. I think it would be fair for the british to have a referendum, and I think that there will always be voices for that until it happens.

    Then again there are many things that our governments have decided and decide with the powers of and in a representative democratic context during our lives. No people vote to take part in NATO, the UN, providing aid to developing countries or engage in military conflict. Maybe we should to a greater extent, but we don't expect to, and our elected representatives are supposed to take most of these decisions for us. We also have to live with historic events, our parents decisions and global aspects out of our reach.

    Maybe you can find some comfort in that the British - as one of the big six - have a greater say in the EU than most of the members.
    Last edited by Michael Folkesson; 31-03-12 at 16:20. Reason: Some badly worded sentences and choice of words

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Folkesson View Post
    Response to Sam Jackson:



    The Union trace it's roots to 1951 making the development reach just over sixty years, making it a long and slowly tested cooperation. I appreciate that this is not what you refer to, but I want to include that when considering - in my view - the astounding reach of humility and strength for these former enemies to begin cooperation so shortly after - and because of - the war in this way. The now twenty year old actual European Union has been speedy as per economic integration and enlargement. It is of course the breakup of the Soviet union that facilitated this change of pace.

    I don't agree that there is a blaze attitude or lack of democratic will in the EU, but I think I understand where you are coming from and I can think of a number of things you might present as examples of just that, but I think one must appreciate that to build a democratic cooperation of international democracy like we are doing, we can only do that step by step, and for great lengths the member states will only carefully share parts of what has previously been the sole privilege of the national state. This means that the EU can only develop and be as democratic as the member states are prepared to let it be, and as a consequence, for the EU institutions to become more democratic, the more membership governments have to give up control like vetoes or ceding powers to the commonly elected European parliament.

    Building an regional cooperation with international democracy to include a common civilization like this has never been done before, and we don't know how it is supposed to look like. We have to find common solutions for common needs in an increasingly multipolar world that - outside of Europe - is not sleeping or static.

    I think that if we try to copy old solutions to new political situations we have not gained that much. One can argue differences between a federation and a confederation, but I don't actively support a European federation. I don't believe we need that, and I actually think it could be detrimental to the European idea. Even so, in the end, I can live with any solution that caters to democratic values and the safety and stability of this European family.

    I am a big supporter of a confederation and I think that we can speak with one voice in where it's needed, in unison in some and separately in other areas. I think there are too many naysayers in European politics for democracy to be abandoned. There is no lack of criticism in the EU; a key commodity in democracy.

    But as democracy means eternal compromise and no inventions are really new but new combinations of old ones, I think we can expect a steady mix of disappointments and surprises.

    To me, a Union without the British countries is unthinkable - pretty or not. However, I think we must accept that we can't expect that all countries must move in unison, but to let some countries deepen their cooperation in different areas where others might follow. I understand that this means a risk of developing and creating differences that could come into conflict with the interests of the whole which would be contradictory of the project to begin with, as well as a risk of creating distance to some countries "left behind" who have increasing difficulties or willingness to "catch up". For that I think we must be wary.

    I don't think that England will leave the EU, but I do understand that there are opinions of not having had the chance to vote for membership in a referendum, like most countries did. I think it would be fair for the british to have a referendum, and I think that there will always be voices for that until it happens.

    Then again there are many things that our governments have decided and decide with the powers of and in a representative democratic context during our lives. No people vote to take part in NATO, the UN, providing aid to developing countries or engage in military conflict. Maybe we should to a greater extent, but we don't expect to, and our elected representatives are supposed to take most of these decisions for us. We also have to live with historic events, our parents decisions and global aspects out of our reach.

    Maybe you can find some comfort in that the British - as one of the big six - have a greater say in the EU than most of the members.
    I appreciate your well informed response Michael - And i do understand completely what you mean in regards to it's beginnings after the second World War - And it is a big step to go from such a state of war towards a close-knit integrated community. Of course i would not be eager to put Europe back into it's war-torn state, but i am concerned about the effect that such a big change to the nature of sovereignty and democracy in such a short a short time is having and going to have on European countries.

    I do agree with you that the democratic nature of the EU is limited by the state of democracy in member countries, and I appreciate that most transitions aren't smooth at the very least, but then I would argue that in that case the EU should be aiming also to set a new standard for democracy, although I do understand - ironic as it sounds, that a purer form of democracy would make it more difficult for the EU to progress, as with such an large investment in this project, they can't just drop all their tools and give up when someone says 'No'.

    I would argue that the main problem, at least from my perspective, is the distance from the upper echelons of the EU to us at the bottom. Our own parliaments can be distant enough most of the time, and dishonest enough - but when it comes to the European Parliament, Commission and Council there are vast distances - And if the governments of individual member states so often do not represent the national interest despite being in power, then it seems highly improbable that such distant, almost god-like figures in these institutions can be doing what is in a European interest. It often seems that they have their ideas, and they aren't going to let some pesky plebeians get in their way :].

    I understand what you are saying about the position of the UK in the EU, that's partly why i think a referendum would be important for the whole of the EU, and not just ourselves. If we just got that out of the way then a 'Stay in' vote would likely lead to more integration faster and would be beneficial to the EU, and a 'No' vote would at least resolve things and allow them to progress in whatever form.

    Another factor that I think will be a big issue, especially if the EU goes 'all the way' so to speak, is the idea of national identities. Even with all the ideas of European-ness being pushed for at the moment, i don't expect that people of such varied national identities are all going to just drop those for a new identity. I also think that inevitably given human nature as much as they push for this idea to become real, they will push others away from it just as readily. At least from what i've seen, if someone has preconceived ideas about something, the more you push them the more they will back away.

    I don't agree with the idea that what is applied to the NATO and the UN can be applied to our governments however, it is only a small step between 'our elected representatives are supposed to take most of these decisions for us' and 'our elected representatives take our decisions for us', currently i find it difficult to segregate the two. It seems that largely politicians apply to the populace using their concerns as a platform on which to gain power, and then proceed with whatever they want, it's a strange system really and perhaps the democratic ideal is in fact something that is proposed to exist, but hasn't been yet found itself, as it is only able to form on systems on a sliding scale ranging from anarchy to totalitarianism.

    My point is that i don't expect the EU system to result in anything better than what we already had individually, only the stakes are much, much higher. It will either make or break Europe, that is true. And i know that if so many people, even in the UK, can't trust their employees to do their job properly, then i don't fancy entrusting more power to people politically further away. It's a sad irony i think that the most honest politicians have the least power.

    I'm sorry this lost cohesion a bit towards the end, but yes to summarize - It seems like a project of the European politicians and not one of Europeans. I support cooperation and good relations within Europe, we need it after the bad start to the last century in particular, and i think we could achieve a great deal with cooperation in certain areas. But i don't think that is the same as political dominance. In short, i feel we should work together, i see no reason for hostilities, but that doesn't mean i want to be in a political union held together by people i wouldn't trust with themselves, let alone hundreds of millions of people. I think one problem is that pro-EU people often have trouble understanding why on earth anti-EU people would ever think what they do, and that anti-EU people think the same of pro-EU people.


    Thanks for your reply - It's much better to read than 'I'm pro-EU because i am' or 'I am anti-EU because i am', although i sometimes feel like that myself haha.

    Oh and just while it's fresh in my head again - I think a blaize attitude to democracy and lack of democratic will permeates throughout political classes in most places, but the EU is just as bad. Politicians are getting complacent again, and need to be kept on their feet for everyone's sake.

    But yeah, i'm getting tired now so i'll stop there.

    Kind Regards,
    Sam Jackson

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