New haplogroup I2a map

[how yes no 2]

Well I never paid attention on details of such studies (similar to autosomal ).
Ok, I understand there is a difference.
Are there any conclusions made by authors that were interesting to you?

Two circumscribed and densely sampled areas stood out from the surroundings:
central Anatolia (cluster 5) and central Hungary* (cluster 148).

*This cluster was mapped with the second highest frequency in the rest of Hungary and in the southern and western neighboring areas (data not shown).

Two clusters were assigned to large areas of the Balkan Peninsula:
(1)Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and EasternHungary, and Central
Ukraine: cluster18;
(2)continental Greece, Bulgaria,and Macedonia: cluster2

Cluster 13 was assigned to Albania and west Balkan(how yes no: looking at colors - did they mean east Balkans?)
*Cluster 13 was registered as second in frequency in the region of Anatolia and
the border region of Latvia, Belarus,and the Russian Federation(data not shown).

cluster 6 WesternEurope
cluster 17 EasternEurope:
cluster 3 Northwestern Africa
cluster 4 Western Fenno-Scandinavia:
cluster 9 Finland and the Baltic
cluster 11 Caucasus

in diagram with tree showing relation between clusters
A: Cluster 18 (Serb/Croat/Romania/central Ukraine/east and west Hungary) is closest to cluster 10 (?)
B: cluster 13 (Albanians) and cluster 5 (central Anatolia)
C: A and B are cluster

D cluster 3 (northwest Africa) and 16 (?)
E cluster D and 8 (?)

F: C and E are cluster

G: 7 (Egypt, Syria?) and 12 (?)
H: 15 and 2 (Greece, Bulgaria and Macedonia)

I: G and H

J: I and F

 

[how yes no 2]

exactly, they did do much more tests...

so why is there one I2a2 Dinaric south in east Germany and 5 all in line cutting west-central Germany on line north south from Denmark to Swiss?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

how come this coincides with same line for I2* spread?
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215/default.aspx?section=ymap

I think that Germanic Suebi might have had some I2a2-Dinaric south.... tribal splits are never clear cut...

actually, besides Suebi, there can be other reasons for this spread:

Cimbry who lived in Denmark and disappeared from history...
Alans who apparently also had settlement in Germany
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/500/entity_6193.html

interestingly, in Caspian highlands they live next to Serboi, in Germany and Iberia next to Suebi

 

[Shetop]

so why is there one I2a2 Dinaric south in east Germany and 5 all in line cutting west-central Germany on line north south from Denmark to Swiss?

I don't believe there is more I2a2a-Dinaric in Central than in East Germany. Check any I2a2a-Dinaric frequency map.

Current distribution on ftdna project does not show the real situation.

 

[how yes no 2]

I don't believe there is more I2a2a-Dinaric in Central than in East Germany. Check any I2a2a-Dinaric frequency map.
Current distribution on ftdna project does not show the real situation.

perhaps...
do you know any other maps that differentiate Dinaric-South and Dinaric-North?
what other I2a2-Dinaric maps are there that you recommend?

 

[Shetop]

I believe ftdna project is not reliable when using it to compare I2a2a-Dinaric in East and Central Germany due to unknown number of people which were tested inside these particular regions. Also it is known that Western Germany is more densely populated than the Eastern. And information we are searching for is the frequency so we could get tricked.

But when trying to use the same ftdna project to conclude if there is more Dinaric-North or Dinaric-South in Germany as a whole, sample size gets a bit bigger, there are no other references to compare with (like in the case above), so I believe error becomes smaller.

I'm not aware of any other map which could be used for this purpose. This one is for all I2a2 and I believe you've seen it already:

 

[how yes no 2]

...

....
and letters appear on the shield as the ones on the flag of the Palaiologos dynasty of Byzantine Empire..

actually, the letters might have travelled other way around...from Serb people to Palaiologos dinasty, as Palaiologos origin from Macedonia and first known member of that family is mentioned only in 1081 as a commander in army in battle of Dyrrhachium against Normans

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiologos

indeed in old Serbia this was the symbol of Serbia nobles from Macedonia e.g. house of Mrnjavcevic, while main Serbia rulers - dinasty of Nemanjic had 2 headed white eagle on red shield (white eagle on red shield is often repeated symbol in coats of arms in Poland)..

Nemanjic dinasty coat of arms

Mrnjavcevic dinasty coat of arms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Serbian_rulers

Volyn and Rivne regions, situated in northwest Ukraine in wider area of elevated I2a2, have as coats of arms also red shield with white cross

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volyn_Oblast

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivne_Oblast

and just north of those 2 areas, in Poland on border with Belorusia is town Terespol with following coat of arms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terespol


merging this coat of arms with more southern ones from Volyn would easily give serbian coat of arms

and this development we can somewhat trace in Poland's heraldics (subsequently coats of arms of Ostoja (galery 2), Cholewa(3), Przegonia(4), Pielesz(4),Wloszek (8), Druck(5), Tarnawa (6)):

http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herby_szlach.html

today, in Serbia we see the symbol as a letter S (paleologoi had letter B) in meaning "Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava" (only agreement/cohesion save Serb) ('S' being in Cyrillic written as 'C')

however, originally it could have been moon or horse shoe

http://www.akromer.republika.pl/herby_tab03.html

 

[how yes no 2]

but I am interested whether same heraldics can be found among people in Ukraine who actually cluster with Serbs and Croats, as this would be traceable source point

looking at:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png

in central Ukraine is such a region that could be source of the cluster

Vinnytsia Oblast (Vinnytsia region)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast


interesting is that name Vinnytsia might be derived from Veneti... which indicates that I might have been right relating I2a2 with Veneti
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26066

in this region we find white cross on red shield but with 'c' symbol on top of cross...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast
local variants:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bershad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia

so, cross may origin from 2 swords, and 'c' (Cyrillic letter 's') from "sidro" (anchor)

as we can see, when it is not drawn as anchor it is depicted as white 'c' in blue square, which is in same time:
1) visual representation of anchor in the sea
2) textual representation of anchor as 'c' is in same time first letter of word representing anchor - "sidro" ('сидро' in Cyrillic) in Serbian and probably in other Slavic languages as well...

only problem is that Cyrillic alphabet was not supposed to exist at that time... which is strange as Sloveni (self-identification of Slavs) means people with alphabet letters (Slovo = letter of alphabet), while Nemci (Slavic word for Germans) is derived from 'not able to speak'

 

[Garrick]

how yes no

Very interesting connections and observations.

What is the mysterious and hard to fathom in the darkness of the past is the relationship between I2 and R1a.

I and R are completely different clans, but a lot of I2 and R1a have the same culture and language.

Maybe it is because I2 and R1a lived in the Balkan more than ten millenia ago, if it is true that Balkan R1a is 11kya ago (I clan are the first on Balkan, 25 kya ago).

 

[Garrick]

how yes no
It is fundamentally question about old I language.

I gives five hypotheses:

1) the men from the Vinca civilization belonged R1a

2) but if it is no true then Vincans belonged to a branch I.

3) it is possible that Vincans were carriers I and R1a

4) if Vincans were carriers I haplogroup, or mixed I and R1a haplogroup, that claim from the roots may change our knowledge of the Slavic language and culture

5) if 2) or 3) is true members of Clan R1a (who came from central Asia to Balkan) they have adopted an older culture and language I people.

It is a bold claim that R1a came from Asia and they have received from I Clans (old Serb?) language and culture but this is just one possible scenario that explains the series of contradictions that exist between Old Europeans I and Indo Europeans R1a and between Slavs R1a and some other Asian R1a.

 

[DejaVu]

This maybe have not much to do with Haplogroup I2a but with the colours red and white on flags and heraldic designs.


“The Viking long boat called Drakur flew the red and white striped flag, and even that the motif can be traced further back to the Tribe of Dan.”


Holy Roman Empire 962–1806
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire
The Holy Roman Empire (HRE; German: Heiliges Römisches Reich (HRR), Latin: Imperium Romanum Sacrum (IRS), Italian: Sacro Romano Impero (SRI)) was a realm that existed for about a millennium in Central Europe, ruled by a Holy Roman Emperor. Its character changed during the Middle Ages and the Early Modern period, when the power of the emperor gradually weakened in favour of the princes, especially under Habsburg rule. In its last centuries, its character became quite close to a loose union of territories.
In the empire's later years, its faltering cohesion, the fact that the Holy Roman Empire was populated primarily by Germans despite its official "Roman" title, and its claims to divinity and ancient Rome all became matters of ridicule. As the French Enlightment writer Voltaire quipped, "This agglomeration which was called and which still calls itself the Holy Roman Empire was neither holy, nor Roman, nor an empire".


History

Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the Romans in 800 and was then the forerunner of the Holy Roman Emperor, largely because he had inaugurated the tradition of imperial coronation by the Pope of the Catholic Church. This continued as a significant institution in the Holy Roman Empire until the 16th century. Charlemagne's policy of "renovatio Romanorum imperii" (reviving the Roman Empire) remained at least in theory as the official position of the Empire until its end in 1806.

Flag of the Holy Roman Empire (1200-1350).


Holy Roman Empire ca.1600.




LOST ISRAELITE IDENTITY. The Hebrew Ancestry of Celtic Races
http://www.britam.org/Identity.html
The book begins by showing how the exiled Israelites became identified with the Cimmerians, Scythians, and Goths. The Cimmerians in an Assyrian inscription were referred to as "Amurru" meaning in effect at that time as ISRAELITES! The different exiled Israelite groups eventually migrated in stages to the north and west. The emphasis in “Lost Israelite Identity” is on the Cimmerians and the Celtic peoples many of whom were of Israelite-Cimmerian derivation.

The second part of “Lost Israelite Identity” consists of historical flashbacks in time followed by further analysis of the Assyrian-directed exile. Historical phenomena from before the Exile have significance concerning the ultimate destiny of the Exiles and add depth to the rest of the evidence adduced in “Lost Israelite Identity”. The ancient Hebrew-Israelites were descended from Shem from whom came the Sumerians in Mesopotamia, founders of early civilisation. Abraham the first Hebrew was a wandering prince whose descendants went down into Egypt where they became identified with the "Hycsos" shepherd-kings. After being enslaved they were freed from Egypt and journeyed to Canaan which they conquered gaining dominance over most of the Middle East. They established settlements in North Syria and Cyprus as well as in "Palestine" proper. The Hebrews influenced Greek and Egyptian history and are identifiable with the "Sea-Peoples". Some Israelite Tribes participated in Phoenician maritime activity and contacts with the west were established at an early date. In the end Northern Israel was conquered. “Lost Israelite Identity” relates how the Assyrians exiled most of the Israelites to the north where they became identifiable with the Cimmerians and company. In addition, however, to sending Israelite exiles northward overland, the Assyrians also sent some of the exiles overseas directly by ship. They took control of the Phoenician sea-faring set-up and through its agency transported Israelites directly to the west and re-settled them in Spain and elsewhere. In the course of time the exiles in Spain linked up with their Hebrew brethren in the Cimmerian-Celtic forces that advanced overland from the Middle East. From Spain they moved out into Gaul and the British Isles. Evidence for most of the above is mainly derived from Biblical, archaeological, and written sources, all of which are authoratitively referenced.

The third part of “Lost Israelite Identity” shows how Celtic (mainly Irish) legends confirm all of the account given above sometimes going into precise detail and often imparting information (since confirmed by archaeology etc.) that proves the truth of their tradition. The Celts preserved names of Hebrew Tribes and places. In the past, from pre-Christian times, they practiced aspects of the Mosaic Law and in Scotland continued to do so until fairly recently.

Israelites - 12 Tribes of Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites

The origins of the Israelites
The archaeological record indicates that the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah emerged in the Early Iron Age from the Canaanite city-state culture of the Late Bronze Age, at the same time and in the same circumstances as the neighbouring states of Edom, Moab, Aram, and the Philistinian and Phoenician city-states. Throughout this formative period, (1200–1000 BCE), the highlands lack any sign of centralised authority; religiously, they lack any sign of temples, shrines, or centralised worship in general (although cult-objects associated with the Canaanite god El have been found); the pottery remains strongly in the local Late Bronze tradition; and the alphabet is early-Canaanite. The most commonly appealed to ethnic marker distinguishing Israelite villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether this can be taken as an ethnic marker remains a matter of dispute. Nevertheless, it is widely recognized that identification of the Israelites as a distinctive group is possible by means of archaeological evidence such as foodways, architecture, cultic practices, and material culture such as ceramics and large water pithoi.
The population of the central highlands during this same period was extremely sparse at the beginning, with some 25 villages and a population of about 12,000; by 1000 BCE the number of villages had increased to 300 and the population to 55,000.
By c.850 BCE inscriptions such as the Tel Dan stele and the Mesha stele indicate that a regionally important kingdom referred to by its neighbours as the House of Omri, after the ruling dynasty, and sometimes Samaria, after its capital, had emerged in the territory of the central highlands; there is no record of what this kingdom's own name for itself might have been, although in one Assyrian record the king is called "Ahab the Israelite." Records relating to Israel, in the sense of this northern kingdom, continue down to its destruction by the Assyrians towards the end of the 8th century.
The earliest probable mention of the southern kingdom is on the Tel Dan stele (c.850 BCE), where, according to the scholarly consensus, the House of David is mentioned alongside the House of Omri together with the mention of the death of a king whose reconstructed name can be equated with the name of a king mentioned in the bible. There is no further archaeological evidence until Babylonian records refer to it (as Yehud, the Aramaic equivalent of Judah) at the very end of the 7th century. The archaeological record also indicates that Jerusalem, from being no more than a small village, underwent a period of sudden and substantial growth in the period immediately following the destruction of Israel, c.722 BCE.




Three major theories on how the group of people became to be known as the Israelites have been proposed:

1. Rapid Conquest
2. Gradual Infiltration
3. Revolting Peasants

Evidence for these theories comes from biblical as well as extrabiblical sources. However, none of the theories can completely account for all the data. The rapid conquest model was put forth by William Albright and George E. Wright in an effort to combine archeological evidence with biblical narrative. In general, this model follows the Joshua 1-12 story with the defining characteristic of unified tribes triumphing in military conquest. However, modern archeology and scholarship, has subsequently criticized this theory, especially since the Judges account show independent tribal action rather than a unified national identity.
In response to what is found in Judges, Albrecht Alt and Martin Noth advanced the gradual infiltration theory of Israelite emergence. They propose that instead of a rapid military conquest, a gradual infiltration of pastoral nomads from settled highlands eventually come to conflict with coastal areas. Eventually the individual tribes “unify” under charismatic leadership (such as Gideon or Deborah; Judges 4-6) and shared heritage and religious practice. George E. Mendenhall wrote that while plausible, the transformation of the nomadic existence to one of sedentary nature had nothing to do with the tribes of Israel.
Alternatively, as proposed by Mendenhall and defended by Norman K Gottwald, a peasant class revolted against the upper class upon hearing stories of similarly oppressed people who came out of Egypt. He suggests that the impetus for joining into a unified group of people was not only for egalitarian purposes but also for some measure of peace. Extrabiblical evidence of the politically unstable environment is highlighted by the Amarna letters, which show city-states constantly warring with each other.




The tribe of Dan

http://www.british-israel.ca/Dan.htm
When the 12 tribes of Israel actually took possession of the promised land, the tribe of Dan was allotted its tribal inheritance in the South Western area of that land.. Dan was situated west-Northwest of Judah; Dan's territory extended westward to the Mediterranean Sea, and included the busy port of Joppa, next to modern Tel-Aviv (Joshua 19:40-48).
Now the Danites migrated Northwards to Laish, and called the city Dan, after their father, see Judges 18. The northern city Laish, now called Dan, by the tribe of Dan, was about thirty miles inland from the ancient busy port of Tyre. Thus the ancient Danites must of had frequent contacts with the people of Tyre, which was in fact occupied by their brethren the tribe of Asher, see Joshua 19:29. So since their Israelite brothers occupied the land of Tyre, they had access to Tyre at anytime. These people of Tyre were a people of sea trade and navigation, see Ezekiel 27. These people built Tyre and Sidon on the Lebanese coast.
In the 1200's B.C., before Dan went to Laish, in a song commemorating a great Israelite victory, the Judge Deborah lamented that during the battle, the "men of Gilead stayed beyond the Jordan [River], and [asked] why DAN REMAINED IN SHIPS?" (Judges 5:17). The Danites were so preoccupied with the Sea and sea trade that they chose to remain in their ships than help their brethren. So even before the time they went to Laish, the Danites were already engaged in sea-faring activities.
J.C. Gawler quotes from the Chronicles of Ireland and says: "Again (p.123), 'The Danites ruled about two centuries until the arrival of the Milesians, which took place, 1000 years before the Christian era.' Thus the date of the arrival of the FIRST COLONY OF DANAANS WOULD BE 1200 B.C., or 85 years after Deborah and Baraks victory, when we are told Dan had ships...The early connection with Greece, Phoenician and Egypt is constantly alluded throughout the Chronicles [of Ireland] and records of the Irish Dannans" (Dan Pioneer of Israel, pp.30-31, emphasis added). After the first batch of Dannans left for Ireland, the remaining Danites migrated North 30 miles away from Tyre. These Danites that migrated North to Laish are the 3RD BATCH OF DANAANS THAT WENT TO IRELAND. These Danites worshipped Idol gods at that time, and brought them to Ireland, and Gawler points out, "The Psalter at Cashel says that the Tower of Tara [In Ireland] was built for the preservation of the fire of Baal, and was called Bel Theine...and that the mark of Phoenicia and Israel [was] Baal worship" (ibid., p.31).
What route did the first batch of Danaans take? Irish Historian Thomas Moore says that one of the earliest resident peoples of Ireland-the Firbolgs-were dispossessed by the Tuatha de Danaans, "who after sojourning for some time in Greece...proceeded thence to Denmark and Norway" (History of Ireland, vol.1, p.59) Then the Danaans proceeded to Ireland. So we see a time span of about 85 years, after Deborah, the judge of Israel uttered those words about Dan in ships!
The word "Tuatha" simply means "tribe"-"Tuatha...Irish history...A 'Tribe' or 'people' in Ireland"' (New English Dictionary on Historical principles, vol.10, pt 1, p.441). The word Dan means Judge in the Hebrew. "Dan [Heb "Judge"] shall Judge his people as one of the tribes of Israel" (Gen 49:16). "It is certainly no coincidence that the Irish Gaelic word Dun or Dunn means Judge..."' (America and Britain in Prophecy, Raymond McNair, p.25, emphasis theirs).
Another Irish Historian Geoffrey Keating mentions the SECOND BATCH of Danites of Judges 18, who were the THIRD BATCH OF DANAANS that went to Ireland AFTER THE MILESIANS, and he says: "...the Danaans were a people of great learning and wealth; they left Greece after a battle with the ASSYRIANS and went to Ireland; and also to Denmark, and called it 'DAN-mares,' Dans' country" (History of Ireland, vol.1, pp.195, 199, emphasis added). When the Assyrians attacked in the 8th century, the Danites of the promised land, left and joined their brothers in Ireland, who already settled there in different waves of immigration. They left to get away from the battle with Assyria.
The Encyclopedia Britannica tells us that the ancestor of the Danaans was "According to late Danish tradition...Juteland [mainland Denmark] was acquired by DAN, THE ANCESTOR OF THE DANES FROM WHERE THEIR NAME DERIVES (under article 'Denmark,' vol.8, 11th edition, emphasis added). Like the Danites of old, they named Denmark after their father Dan.

Testimony of Josephus, the Jewish Historian
Jewish Historian Josephus shows that the Lacedemonian (Spartans of Greece) were actually Danites, and therefore closely related to the Jews. Josephus relates an incredible letter from Sparta to Judah: "
"Jonathan the high priest of the Jewish nation . . . to the ephori and senate and the people of the Lacedemonians, send greeting:
"When in former times an epistle was brought to Onias, who was then our high priest . . . we have discovered that both the Jews and the Lacedemonians are of ONE STOCK, and are derived from the KINDRED OF ABRAHAM...concerning the KINDRED THAT WAS BETWEEN US AND YOU, a copy of which is here subjoined, we both joyfully received the epistle . . . because we were well satisfied about it from the SACRED WRITINGS, yet did not we think fit, first to begin the claim of this RELATION TO YOU, the glory which is now given us by you. It is a long time since this relation of ours to you hath been renewed, and when we, upon holy and festival days offer sacrifices to God, we pray to Him for your preservation and victory . . . . You will, therefore, do well yourselves to write to us, and send us an account of what you stand in need of from us, since we are in all things disposed to act according to your desires...This letter is foursquare: and the seal is an eagle, with a dragon [snake or serpent] in its claws" (Antiquities of the Jews, bk 12 chapter 4 sec 10; XIII, 5, 8, emphasis added).

The Lacedemonians received the Jewish ambassadors carrying the letter kindly and made a decree of friendship and mutual assistance with the Jews, and then sent the letter to their Lacedemonian kinsmen.
In Ancient Mythology, Bryant relates that Stephanus Byzantium shows that Alexander Polyhistor and Claudius Jolaus also speak of a direct relationship or kindship between the Spartan Greeks and the people of Judaea (vol.5, p.51-52, 60).

Dan -- A Serpent's Trail
Jacob prophesied that Dan would be a "Serpent by the way, an adder by the path," (Gen 9:16-17) meaning that he would leave a trail wherever he would go. In the Bible we have seen evidence of this naming everything after their father "Dan," see Joshua 19:47; Judges 18:12, 27-29. When the Danites migrated to Ireland, they left a trail of names throughout Europe. The city of Troy was located at the mouth of the Bosporus DarDANelles. From their they migrated into Europe and left names all over and into DANmark and Norway.
In Hebrew there are no vowels, so the name Dan is written DN, or its Hebrew equivalent. Thus words like Dan, Din, Don, Dun, Den, or Dn, correspond to the name of Dan.
Just west of the Black Sea, ancient geographers designated a region by the name of Moesia, which means the land of the "Moses-ites." These people revered a person whom they called Zal-moxis. "Zal" significes "chief," so this person, "chief Moxis" or "leader Moxis" was actually "chier MOSES," the man of God who led Israel to the promised land, and whom these people remembered as their original leader. The tribe of Dan also passed through this region, and the surrounding territory, leaving its name in Mace-DON-ia, and the Dar-DAN-elles, and to the north by the river DAN-ube. In the territory of Sarmatia (or Samaria, meaning the Israelites), were located the rivers DN-iper, DN-ister, and the DON.

Professor Totten declares:
"There is no grander theme upon the scrolls of history than the story of this struggle of the Anglo-Saxons westward. The very streams of Europe mark their resting places, and in the root of nearly all their ancient names (Dan, or Don) recall the sacred stream Jor-dan river of rest-- from whose whose hands, so far away, as exiles, they set out. It was either the little colony of Dan, obeying its tribal proclivity for naming everything it cap- turied (Jud.18:1-29) after their father, or else the mere survival of a word and custom; but, none the less, it serves to TRACE these wanderers LIKE A TRAIL. Hence the Dan-ube, the Dan-ieper, the Dan-iester, the Dan-au, the Daci and Davi, the Dan, the Don, the U-Don, the Eri-don, and the THOUSAND OTHER Dans and Dons of ancient and early geography, down to the Danes in Dan-emerke, or 'Dan's last resting place'" (quoted in Allen, Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright, p.263-64).
Denmark, the name of the modern country in Europe north of Germany, means, literally, "Dan's mark." It's people are called "Danes." In fact, because at one time Denmark ruled all the surrounding region, the whole region took its name from them the ScanDINavian peninsula! Clearly, here are remnants of the people of DAN, who migrated westward overland from the Caucasus to their present location in northern Europe!
However, other Danites, who dwelt or abode in ships, and who associated themselves with the sea peoples of Tyre and Sidon, fled westward through the Mediterranean when northern Israel fell. Early Danites fled Egypt migrated through SarDINia, and left their trail along the sea-coasts of the Mediterranean. Thus Dan, who was a "lion's whelp" who would "leap from Bashan," leaped all the way to Ireland, where historians explain that the early settlers were known as the "Tuatha de Danaan" -- literally, the "tribe of Dan." The Greeks called them the Danoi, the Romans called them Danaus.
In Ireland, today, we find their customary evidence -- their place names -- in abundance. Such names as Dans-Lough, Dan-Sower, Dan-Monism, Dun-dalke, Dun-drum, Don-egal Bay, Don-egal City, Dun-glow and Lon-don-derry, as well as Din-gle, Dun-garven and Duns-more, which means "MORE DANS." Of course, the most famous Irish ballad of all time is the song, "Danny Boy." It should be plain that the country of Ireland is replete, filled with names which derive from the ancient patriarch of the Hebrews -- DAN, the son of Jacob! It should be plain that the ancient Danites settled in Ireland, and most of them dwell in that land, today.

The Tribe of Dan and peoples descended from Dan

http://www.britam.org/dan.html
THE SYMBOLS OF DAN STILL USED TODAY!
Danes from the Israelite Tribe of Dan invaded Denmark at about the same time as the Naphtali moved in large numbers into Norway. The Tribe of Dan was represented by a snake or by a lion. Other accepted symbols of Dan were a pair of scales, an eagle, and a dragon. Many members of Dan settled in Denmark, in Ireland, in Wales, England, and the U.S.A. where 40-50 million people have Irish ancestry. The symbol of a snake was once worshipped in Ireland; a lion represents Denmark and England, Wales has a dragon on its flag, and the U.S.A. has an eagle.
Tribal Identification: Dan

Additional Notes pertinent to the identification of Dan will be found in the sections concerning Reuben, Judah, Naphtali, and Gad.
<<And the sons of Dan; Hushim>> Genesis 46; 23. "Hushim" was also known as "Shuham".
<<These are the sons of Dan after their families: of Shuham, the family of the Shuhami. These are the families of Dan after their families>> Numbers 26; 42.

DAN WITH GAD AND NAPHTALI
Groups derived from Dan were historically somehow linked with the Gothic forces that descended mainly from Gad. Danites were also found together with the Nephtalites of Naphtali .
"HUSHIM" OR SHUHAM: THE SON OF DAN
The Son of DAN, "Hushim" (Genesis 46;23) was also called Shuham (Numbers 26;42). Hesse in north Germany represented Hushim. Shuham may be found in the "Suehani" who, according to Jordanes, were in Sweden like the Danes themselves are considered to have been. It is noticeable that quite often the Tribes of Naphtali and Dan were interwoven and that both appear to have been present in the Scythian Naphtalite group.

PEOPLES OF DAN

DAN: Don, Danaster, Danaper, Danube (all rivers associated with the
Scyths).
Dangalai (Iran),
Danava (a Scythian Tribe),
Dana (from Lebanon-Israel to Ireland).
Don (Wales,)
Damnones (Scythia, Scotland, south-west Britain, also known as "Dannonia"
Dani (Danes of Denmark).

SHUCHAM (Suham) = Suehan (Sweden), Suoumi (Finland, also associated with Simeon).

HUSHAM (Hussem) = Hesse (Franks in Germany).

IRELAND (EIRE):
Ireland has a harp on its Coat of Arms. The harp is traditionally associated with King David of Judah and Israel.


The History of the Red Haired Race and the Tribe of Dann
http://www.burlingtonnews.net/redhairedrace.html

TUATHA DE DANAAN
According to the mythic tales the Tuatha de' Danann arrived in western Ireland (near
modern Connacht) by air. They divided into two social classes: "gods" as teachers of
medicine, smithing, communication or druidry, and "non-gods" as farmers or shepherds.
Although no one knows for certain what the Tuatha looked like, descriptions, such as of
their female war-leader Eriu, indicate tall attractive people with pale skin, high foreheads, long red hair and large blue eyes.
“They were the boldest mariners, the greatest colonizers, who could boast of a form of
government approaching to constitutionalism, who of all nations of the time stood highest
in practical arts and sciences and into whose lap there flowed an unceasing stream of the
world´s greatest riches, until the day came when they began to care for nothing else,
and the enjoyment of material comforts and luxuries took the place of the thirst for
knowledge.”
Canon George Rawlinson on The Phoenicians

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/dann.html
A Babylonian tablet located in the British Museum (No 74329), circa 2000 B.C. contains the Sumerian record of the Line of Cain. Copied by A.R. Millard and translated by W.G. Lambert (Kadmos, vol. VI), it speaks of the beginnings of a group of people who were ploughmen,(agriculturists) which corresponds to the biblical "tiller of the land."
They were called AMAKANDU - And, the Mesopotamian chief of these people was KA'IN
"Ka'in built in Dunnu a city with twin towers and gave himself lordship over it. "
"....After the death (or murder) of Ka'in, "he was laid to rest in the city of Dunnu, which he loved."
"....We also find among traditional Assyrian eponyms of royal names the combination Ashur-bel-Ka'ini ("Ashur, lord of the Ka'inites"). The Assyrian scribes paralleled this name with the Sumerian ASHUR-EN.DUNI ("Ashur is lord of Duni"), implying that the Ka'ini ("The people of Kain") and the Duni ("The people of Dun") were one and the same; and thus reaffirming the biblical Cain and Land of Nun or Dun." Z. Sitchen

The Creation of the Shepherd Kings

The notion of the serpent as evil came into our consciousness during the early Christian era. Prior to this, the biblical serpent
was often connected with godly knowlege, healing and immortality. The Hebrew word for the creature who tempted Eve is
"nahash" which literally means "he who solves secrets."
The Anunnaki came to earth for the purpose of colonization and mining. Through their advanced knowledge of genetics, they
created a slave race. To watch over their 'herd' of slaves, they created a hybrid group of 'shepherd kings'. These 'hybrids'
enjoyed the protection of the gods in exchange for their services and loyalty. Being at least 75 per cent Anunnaki, Caine was the first in the Shepherd Kingship line. The line of Cain went on to produce what we know today as the 'blue blood' lineage, always interbreeding within the Anunnaki families in order to maintain the purity of the hybrid blood status.

The serpent bloodline interbred with Nordics, who carried the blonde and blue eyed traits. These Nordic features are for some reason very desirable to the Serpent cultures and as legend goes ' to be descended from Noah' is a code for the illumanati bloodlines.

The Tyrrhenians were an offshoot of the Atlanteans, of whom the Tyrrhenian Sea was named. They eventually split , branching off to become the Etruscans and the Carians,who are more commonly known as the Phoenicians. The Eus-Cara became the Basques of Spain and the Taurkes became the Tauraks who settled North Africa bringing with them the Atlantean knowlede.
The Taureg people of North Africa have allowed some visitors to see their ancient cavern systems in the Ahaggar Mountains where they have murals of their Atlantean ancestors holding snakes and swords with tridents on the blades. The Tuaregs also perform a dance in honour of the Atlantean fire god, Voltan or Votan, Colonizing Greece were the Pelasgians who worshipped a serpent goddess called Athene or Neith who was depicted as a serpent or goddess covered by snakes. They first landed on the Pelopnnese in Greece and settled in Arcadia. It was the "Athenians" who went to war with their cousin Atlanteans prior to the 'deluge'.

The Tibetan Dzyan documents a system of underground tunnels the ancient Atlanteans built that encircled the entire planet.
The western tunnel network had its beginning under the Atacama Desert in Chile running in the direction of Tiahuanaco - Cuzco - Mount Shasta - Grand Tetons, under the American mainland and the Atlantic ocean towards the Atlas mountain range in western Africa and then under Ahaggar/Tibesti mountain ranges towards their final station at the Giza pyramids. One important center was under the Mato Grosso region in Brazil, where Agartha had a strong connection with the Atlantean cities on the surface. The Himalayan network was of extraordinary importance. Here an underground civillization was developed as a mirror of an Atlantean colony that existed on the surface in the area of contemporary Gobi desert. Of course then it was no desert, but a subtropical paradise. The Himalayan network had its souce under the Gobi Desert where it expanded under the Takla Makan Desert and then onwards under the Pamirs, Altai, Karakorum, Baltistan, Kunluns and the Chang Tang plateau towards the Himalayas.

A group of Dananns (Dann) settled in Asia Minor (now Turkey), Greece and the islands of Aegean. (On my site, burlingtonnews.net/tunnels you will find that thirty six underground cities have been discovered so far in Cappadocia with some going down eight levels. Some of these cities can hold a population of thousands. The ventiliation system are so efficient that even eight floors below the surface the air is still fresh. Thirty vast underground cities and tunnel complexs have also been found near Derinkuya in Turkey).

The name Danaan is derived from their worship of the moon goddess, Diana (Dana). The Island of Rhodes,was the home of the Danaan brotherhood of initiates and magicians known as the Telchines. According to the Greek historian Diodorus, these initiates had the ability to heal, change the weather, and 'shape-shift' into any form. (The name Rhodes, which is connect to the German "Rot", meaning red, as with Rothschild (Red-Shield) became a code name for the bloodlines. Malta , too, was was an important center in 3500 B.C. and the home of a major Mystery School. Under Malta is a vast network of tunnels and megalithic temples where secret rituals took place and still do today. Malta's original name was Lato, named after Mother Lato, the serpent goddess. The Knights Templar secret society was formed in the late 11th century to protect the reptilian bloodline or 'Le Serpent rouge ' the red serpent or serpent blood, together with their associated order, the highly secretive Priory of Sion.

The Danaans also settled on Cyprus, known during ancient times as "La-Dan" or the "Isle of Dan". There is little doubt that the "Isle of Man" in the Irish Sea, a place so important to the Druids, was a Danaan settlement. The Tauras Mountains in Turkey, the Baleric Islands and Syria were also Danaan settlements. After arriving in the British Isles, they became known as the "Tuatha de Danaan". According to Sir Laurence Gardener " Sumaire" in the old Irish language means Dragon. He further believes that the subsequent culture of the region, phoenically called Sumerian (pronounced "Shumerian") was actually Sidhemurian (Shee-murian) . This case is now considerable since the early Ring Lords of Scythia (the Tuatha De Danaan king tribe) were actually called the 'Sumaire'.

The female Amazons were a branch of the Hesperides or Hespera, a name for Atlantis. They, too, followed the goddess Athene or Nieth and venerated her symbol, the double-headed axe. They built shrines to the goddess in many places, including the famous centre for Diana worship at Ephesus and other locations along the Turkish coast.

THE GREAT WAR(Reference: Children of the Matrix, David Icke)

Jeoulosy between the Atlantean Kings erupted resulting in a great world war. Laws of Nature were abused and nucleur and
high tech wars took place on planet Earth, bringing about great earthquakes, floods, volcanoes, plate shifts, and other great
disasters...including radioactive fallout.

Stories from the Americas describe highly advanced beings,arriving with great knowledge from their sunken homeland.
The Polynesians claim that Atlantean survivors travelled to India before returning to the remnants of their homeland, the Pacific Islands, and becoming the Polynesians. James Churchward says that these people also settled in Egypt via India. Chinese legend talks of a continent in the area called Maurigosima, which sank amidst a great cataclysm, but its king, Peiru-un, escaped to mainland China and continued his bloodline there.

After the destruction of Atlantis and the surface of Earth was once again safe to live on, the Atlantean survivors began to
recolonise the planet.
The snake travelled the world and finally bit its own tail back to Australia ,where the lightning brothers came.
These 2 men were the 'biblical' MOSES AND AARON who were known to the Egyptians as the Pharoahs AHKTANATEN and SMENKARE . Their sister, Miriam was the Egyptian NEFERTITI . They brought with them the LAW and the sacred colour RED ..The one outstanding life form they left us was the Egyptian war dog now called the DINGO.

The daughter traveled with the AID OF FLIGHT and moved through Asia to the North of Australia leaving the dingo and the STORY OF THE SACRED KINGFISHER along the way until arriving in Nova Scotia by air and BRINGING TO AMERICA the law and the dingo now called the CAROLINA WILD DOG. . Then to Scotland.. not directly from Egypt, as was and still is thought to be the case,..

The promise of the Bird King is fulfilled in the Time of Darkness.....from now on the truth will come forth."Red is his hair , hooked his nose. Fair is his skin and green are his eyes" The same description as all tribal people throughout the world have...He is the bear,the snake the smooth white stone ,the eagle,the sacred secret kingfisher and the red flower sometimes called a rose.""The Snake, the Bear, the Smooth White Stone, the Sacred Red Flow-er and most important, Iam the Sacred Kingfisher ..from the blood who also gave you the Wild Dog which is the Egyptian War Dog, known as the dingo. Iam the Living Sun Dance. Red is my hair. Green is my Eyes. Fair is my Skin and Hooked is my Nose. Iam the Promised Bird King"The Aboriginal of the Finders Rangers have already declared me so. The place where it was declared is a place called BELTANA . To them I am POPPADIDGEEDIDGEE."


The Old Testament's story of Moses being placed in a basket and floated
down the river to be found by a royal family mirrors the earler Sumerian
account of King Sargon.


Sumerian Star Gods

In agreement with biblical history, Sumerian texts documented stories of extraterrestrials called 'star gods' whointerbred with
human women and took the eartly kings to the stars. According to the Sumerians, the 'star gods' were from Mars, the star
system Pleiades and the star Sirius. The Sumerian texts also contain drawings of the solar system

From Waddell's book, Makers of Civilization, we find that the accounts of Sargon were recorded prior to ancient Egypt and that the Sargon records were not written in Egyptian hieroglyphs, but Sumerian hieroglyphs. The early Sumerian-Egyptian
hieroglyphs shows Sargon's grandfather as a world leader known to the Egyptians as Khetm, the Sumerians as Takhu or Tekhi. In the Old Sumerian Kings List he was known as Tuke and in the Indian King List he was called Vri-Taka or Dhri-Taka.

Sargon's father inherited the kingship and became in Egypt as Ro but called Puru-Gin in Sumerian-Egptian hieroglyphs. In the Old Sumerian Kings List he was known as Buru-gina; in the Indus Valley Seals he was Buru or Puru and in the Indian king
lists he was called Puru (II).

Inscriptions about King Sargon were discovered in one of the oldest tombs located at Abydos in Upper Egypt. Waddell recognized the inscriptions as of the same script he had seen on the Sumerian seals found in the Indus Valley.

In the early Sumerian script King Sargon was known under his personal name of Gin-Ukus and in Egypt he was known under his personal name as Gin-Ukussi. The title Ukus or Ukussi in Egypt signifies that he was 'descendant of the first Sumerian
king, Ukusi or Ukhu ( meaning Sun Hawk) ...the first Aryan King. Both the Indian Epics and their Holy Books, the Vedas, uses the solar title of Ikshwaku or Ukusi of Ukhu. All these kings of the Sumer Empire were given 'solar titles' because of the emphasis on the worship of the Sun and the symbolism of the Sun as God. It is extremely likely that Horus or Haru, the Egyptian Son of God came from the Sumerian word, Hu or Ha, meaning 'HAWK'. (Hawk or Sun-Hawk was a Sumerian symbol for the Sun)

King MenesMenes, son of Sargon and the first Egyptian Pharoah, led a revolt against his father and took control of Egypt, declaring it
independent of Sumer. As a result, Sargon not only disinherited him but gave the succession of kingship to Sargon;s younger
brother. After a decade or more his brother died and Mene's took over the kingship, uniting Sumer again with Egypt. (Evidence
now points to Menes dying on an ocean voyage to the West. )


Ireland and Scotland

The Egyptians established a colony in Ireland . The Egyptologist, Lorraine Evans, 'Kingdom of the Ark', suggests that the
colonists were led by Princess Scotia, daughter of Akhenaten and half sister to Tutankhamen. She died in battle and the grave yet today is marked by a slab that has never been excavated. Scotia's descendents went on to become of the High kings of Ireland at TARA in County Meath and then continued on to Scotland which means 'Land of Scotia'.

King Dan I (ODIN) commenced his reign in Scandinavia in the year 1040 B.C. and his family line was known to have stretched back to Troy.

O-DIN is a title indicative of Kingship or Shepherd lineage. (Also known as WO-DEN, WO-TAN and DAN) ODIN comes from the Hebrew ADONAI which means "LORD". The families descended from ODIN derive from the ancient Trojan Kings.

Ancient classical and extra-Biblical sources indicate that the TROJAN KINGS were of the ROYAL LINE OF JUDAH and that they were closely related to other ROYAL FAMILIES IN IONA, GREECE AND CRETE. The early British king-line is traditionally DESCENDED THROUGH THE TROJAN KINGS, and the kings of Ireland are stated to have sprung from the MILESIAN ROYAL FAMILY in IONA into which 'Pharaoh's daughter' married." . Priam Herman L. Hoeh traced Odin's linege back to Jacob, which confims he was of the kingship line.

"Accepting these sources," notes the magazine, "the royal families of the NORTHERN NATIONS OF EUROPE -- Irish-Scottish, Early British, Frankish, Norwegian -- are all of the SCEPTRE TRIBE OF JUDAH and the many intermarriages of these royal lines would thus all be within the one great royal family of which so much is prophesied in Scripture.Queen Elizabeth II has stated that
she is WODEN-BORN" (Dec. 1981. Christian Israel Foundation, Walsall, England. P. 117).

"....The Battle of Troy, indeed Troy itself, was long thought of as just part of incredible Greek legends or mythology. Troy and the events pertaining to it were still considered to be pure mythological when Charles McLaren sugested, back in 1822, that a certain mound in eastern Turkey, called Hissarlik, was the site of the Homeric Troy. It was only when a businessman named Heinrich Schliemann, risking his own money, came up with spectacular discoveries as he dug up the mound in 1870, that scholars began to acknowledge the existence of Troy. It is now accepted that the Battle of Troy had actually taken place in the thirteenth century B.C. It was then, according to the Greek sources, that "gods" and men had fought side by side; in such beliefs the Greeks
were not alone.

 

[DejaVu]

Canaanite & Phoenician History - Culture
http://www.lost-civilizations.net/phoenicians-history.html

Between the period of 1200 B.C. and 900 B.C. there was no major military power in Mesopotamia. Therefor smaller states like Phoenicia and the Hebrew kingdom were able to prosper. These kingdoms especially the Phoenicians started to trade throughout the Mediterranean region.
Phoenicia (foh-NEE-shee-ah) Phoenicia is the Greek name for the country and
people living on the coast of Syria in ancient times at the east end of the
Mediterranean Sea. It is believed that economic opportunity and population
pressures forced them out into the seas. The Phoenicians colonized many areas
along the Mediterranean Sea. Areas where their colonies have been found:
Sardinia Cyprus, and Carthage-most important and lasting colony By far they
were superior to all peoples of that time in seamanship. Legend has it that an

Egyptian pharaoh hired a band of Phoenicians to map and circumnavigate the
coast of Africa. They are best remembered for their contributions in the
establishment to trade with the many peoples living along the Mediterranean
Sea. The Greeks received their alphabet from them as late as the 10th century
B.C. or as early as the 15th. Other antiquities famed to the Phoenicians include
carved ivories to be used in furniture, metalwork, and especially glassware.

THE PHOENICIANS ROUTES OF THE PHOENICIANS The Fertile
Crescent is roughly an arc-shaped area which stretches from the mouth of the
Tigris and Euphrates rivers at the Persian Gulf, west to the Red Sea. About
5,000 years ago it was inhabited by a race know as Semites. The Semites who
lived in the eastern portion of the Fertile Crescent were Sumerians, Assyrians,
and Babylonians. In the western portion lived the Amorites. Those Amorites
who settled in what are today Lebanon, Syria, and Israel were know as
Canaanites. Later, the Greek called them Phoenicians.

PHOENICIANS IN HISTORY There is no doubt the the Phoenicians were
among the most interesting people in history. Because they left so few written
records of their own achievements, their history has been pieced together from
records of all the other nations with which they came in contact, either through
trade or through battle. Other information has been gathered from the work of
archaeologists whose digging have unearthed tombs of their rulers or what little is left of their cities.

The Phoenician Alphabet.
THE OLDEST CITY IN THE WORLD Archaeologists have uncovered
homes of farmers and fishermen in Gebeil dating back to 7000 B.C. They found
one-room huts with crushed limestone floors and stone idol of god El. Because
of these discoveries, it is thought that Gebeil (later known as Byblos) may
actually be the oldest city in the world.


TIES WITH EGYPT As far as back as 3200 B.C., the people of Gebeil
(Byblos) were cutting down cedar trees in the mountains of Lebanon, to be
shipped to Egypt and Mesopotamia for use in building ships and making
columns for houses. In return, the Phoenicians brought back gold, copper, and
turquoise from the Nile Valley and Sinai. Canaanite ceramic pieces have been
found in Egyptian tombs dating back to 2999 B.C. In 1954, archaeologists
found Cheops (khufu) at Giza. Cheops lived around 2550 B.C. The barge was
made of Lebanese cedar wood and faint scent of the cedar was still in the grain
at the time of its discovery.

THE ALPHABET Sumerian cuneiforms (wedge shaped symbols in clay
tablets) and Egyptian hieroglyphics (pictographs) were the only known forms of
writing before the alphabet as we know it was developed. Both scripts, though
separately created, used picture writing. Eventually, pictures or signs
represented sounds. Finally, the pictures became so simplified that a whole
word was written as a single sign. By about 1200 B.C., the Phoenicians had
developed symbols which in time became a real alphabet. The Phoenician
alphabet consisted of twenty-two symbols, all consonants. Each one
represented its own sound. The Egyptian symbol for the ox head was given the
Semitic name aleph and was sounded as "a." The symbol for house became
Beth and was sounded as "b." It is easily see how the Phoenician alphabet was
used to form the other alphabets which followed it. Aleph became the Greek
alpha, Beth became beta. In time, these letters became the Roman letters A and
B and eventually the English A and B, and so on for the entire alphabet. Once a
written language was established, it was inscribed on Egyptian papyrus, a type
of paper made of reeds. So, closely linked with papyrus with the city of Byblos
(which traded cedar for the paper) that when the writing of the Hebrew
prophets were translated into Greek the city's name was given to the great book
- the Bible. Because the papyrus rotted away in the damp sea air and soil, there
are practically no Phoenician writings left. Thus, the literature of the people
who influenced the western world in her writing has largely vanished. Still,
because Egyptian scribes copied the Phoenician letters after hieroglyphics were
no longer used, and because artists in Ninevah inscribed them in stone, the
alphabet remains with us. Alphabet

THE CITY-STATES For the next three centuries, independent Phoenicia
reached its height as a nation whose prime interests were trade, the arts, and
religion. Organized into individual city-states, each Phoenician city was under
its own form of government. Each had its own god and its own ruler, whose
usually remained in power for life. Gebeil (Byblos) was a strong religious
city-state. Sidon and tyre were cities of Business, industry, and navigation.

The city-states were all linked by their common ancestors, language, and writing.
Their mutual interests were their trade arrangements, their customs, and their
rituals and beliefs. Nevertheless, even though they were only a one or two day
march from each other, they never were able to unite as a single power when
they were attacked.


TYRE, THE PURPLE DYE CENTER Tyre was the major region for the
purple dye industry, which probably began as early as the 18th century B.C.
The dye was carefully extracted, a few drops at a time from the murex, a
shell-fish found in the waters off of Tyre and sidon. The process used to extract
the fluid was so difficult and so expensive that only the rich could afford to buy
the dyed fabric. It is because of this Phoenician fabric that we still use the
expression "born in the purple" to mean one who is born rich.

ON THE SEA The Mediterranean Sea allowed the Phoenicians to wander, to
explore, and to discover. It was their link to a world that awaited their skill and
their art. These fine merchants brought their dye, fabric, ceramics, glass, metals,
wine, crops, and oil from port to port. They became the world's finest maritime
nation. The Phoenicians were not only adventurous merchants but expert
sailors and navigators as well. They colonized parts of Cyprus, Rhodes, and the
Aegean Islands. Phoenician sailors journeyed east to the Black Sea and west to
places such as Corinth, Thebes, Sardinia, Palermo, Marseille, Corsica, and
Malta. They were known to have gone as far as Gibraltar and Cadiz in Spain.
By about 1000 B.C., they had finally reached the Atlantic Ocean. The Greeks
were influenced in their navigation by the Phoenicians, who taught them to sail
by the North star. The Greeks have designs on their ships similar to those from
Phoenician models.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moloch
Moloch, Molech, Molekh, Molok, Molek, Molock, or Moloc (representing Semitic מלך m-l-k, a Semitic root meaning "king") is the name of an ancient Semitic god, in particular a god of the Phoenicians, and the name of a particular kind of child sacrifice associated with that god.
Moloch was historically affiliated with cultures throughout the Middle East, including the Ammonite, Hebrew, Canaanite, Phoenician and related cultures in North Africa and the Levant.
In modern English usage, "Moloch" can refer derivatively to any person or thing which demands or requires costly sacrifices.

Meaning of symbols:

http://www.ancient-symbols.com/
http://www.crossroad.to/Books/symbols1.html
http://www.exposingsatanism.org/signsymbols.htm


Phoenician - DNA? J2(only)?

The Scythians are the Tribe of Dan (haplogroup I and other included)?

Red and white colours on heraldic symbols and flags have been chosen by the royal ancestors and have nothing to do with the ordinary people (not same people)?

Looking for a single haplogroup in any ancient or modern country/people is impossible because of mixture occured before countries were created?

 

[Garrick]

how yes no
It is fundamentally question about old I language.

I gives five hypotheses:

1) the men from the Vinca civilization belonged R1a

2) but if it is no true then Vincans belonged to a branch I.

3) it is possible that Vincans were carriers I and R1a

4) if Vincans were carriers I haplogroup, or mixed I and R1a haplogroup, that claim from the roots may change our knowledge of the Slavic language and culture

5) if 2) or 3) is true members of Clan R1a (who came from central Asia to Balkan) they have adopted an older culture and language I people.

It is a bold claim that R1a came from Asia and they have received from I Clans (old Serb?) language and culture but this is just one possible scenario that explains the series of contradictions that exist between Old Europeans I and Indo Europeans R1a and between Slavs R1a and some other Asian R1a.

One source that may be very useful:

According to Marija Gimbutas, the Vinča culture was part of Old Europe – a relatively homogeneous, peaceful and matrifocal culture that occupied Europe during the Neolithic. According to this theory its period of decline was followed by an invasion of warlike, horse-riding Proto-Indo-European tribes from the Pontic-Caspian steppe.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča_culture#cite_note-Gimbutas-6[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinča_culture

If Vincans were Old Europeans, then hypothesis 2) is correct:

Vincans belonged to a branch I.

This can be prove a Y-DNA test.

If this test proves Vincans were carriers of I haplogroup to be an
indisputable fact,

and if can be reconstructed language of the Vincans (Old Serbs?)

it may happen that a picture of the history of Slavic (R1a) cultures and languages can be changed!

 

[how yes no 2]

Garrick,

don't get carried away... all branches of haplogroup tree are equally valuable...it does not really matter, except for historical curiosity, what branch was related to what ancient civilization...

here is a map that is relevant for your question...

as this was very long time ago in past, it is very difficult to guess what were haplogroups dominant in different neolithic sites...

the possibility that you proposed for Vinca is possible taking into account that R1a seems to be very old in Balkan, and that I2a2 seems to have been around for very long time... but Vinca culture is as you see relatively small area and could have been a product of people belonging to some other haplogroups as well....

Looking at the map, Vinca could indeed have been R1a considering R1a is according to Klyosov ancient old in areas of Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia

As for I2a2, I would search for it original core just north of Black sea, so I would put my bet on Dnieper-Don culture... printed-cardium pottery would be likely J2 dominant... Ertebølle culture would be I1 haplogroup related..Comb Ceramic pottery would be N related... but this is all guessing...

 

[Garrick]

Garrick,

don't get carried away... all branches of haplogroup tree are equally valuable...it does not really matter, except for historical curiosity, what branch was related to what ancient civilization...

here is a map that is relevant for your question...

as this was very long time ago in past, it is very difficult to guess what were haplogroups dominant in different neolithic sites...

the possibility that you proposed for Vinca is possible taking into account that R1a seems to be very old in Balkan, and that I2a2 seems to have been around for very long time... but Vinca culture is as you see relatively small area and could have been a product of people belonging to some other haplogroups as well....

Looking at the map, Vinca could indeed have been R1a considering R1a is according to Klyosov ancient old in areas of Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia

As for I2a2, I would search for it original core just north of Black sea, so I would put my bet on Dnieper-Don culture... printed-cardium pottery would be likely J2 dominant... Ertebølle culture would be I1 haplogroup related..Comb Ceramic pottery would be N related... but this is all guessing...

how yes no
You're right an it is big true, certainly all branches of haplogroup tree are equally valuable.

Yes, I saw that R1a in Balkan is very old.

That's why I gave several hypotheses regarding the origin old Vincians.

It is clear that it is much much remains unclear in the darkness of the past and now we are trying to reconstruct.

One of the great unsolved questions is what language old Balkan Clan I spoke?

It is no chance that similar language is developed by Old Europeans (Balkan inhabitants) I haplogroup (Old Serb?) and Indo Europeans (Central Asia inhabitants) R1a haplogroup who came on Balkan 10 kya ago (sooner or later).

It is clearly that the following options:1) I carries received language and culture of R1a carriers, or 2) I carriers instilled a culture and language R1a carriers, or 3) maybe it exists any third option.

But of course I and R1a carriers milennia lived side by side and it is extremy valuable that someone find out what really happened.

I think among elderly Serbs and R1a carriers (is it correct at that time be called Slavs?) there is an unbreakable cultural relations but these are descendants of two very different Clans, one of them (close to J) that is before 25,000 kya moved from Anatolia to the Balkan so it is called Old European, and others one of branch Indo European that originated in Central Asia and is about 10 kya moved to the Balkan.

We can say that originally Serbs are no Slavs (I haplogroup is different than R1a haplogroup), but this can be a quick conclusion, without delving into the matter, really big question is whether old R1a at a time when arriving in Balkan and beyond, may be called Slavs?

 

[how yes no 2]

I think among elderly Serbs and R1a carriers (is it correct at that time be called Slavs?) there is an unbreakable cultural relations but these are descendants of two very different Clans, one of them (close to J) that is before 25,000 kya moved from Anatolia to the Balkan so it is called Old European, and others one of branch Indo European that originated in Central Asia and is about 10 kya moved to the Balkan.

From what we currently know from history there is no such a thing as old Serbs that you can relate to ancient R1a of Balkans...if these R1a can be related to any historic nation of the region than it would be more logical to relate it to ancient Macedonians, as Greek Macedonia is hotspot of R1a on central and east Balkans

btw. it is very strange that Serbia despite supposed massive settlements of Slavs have only low frequencies of R1a and now it seems that even those are mostly native... so, something does not fit there... perhaps original Slavs were very I2a2 dominant which justifies Jordanes callling them Veneti race, while R1a in Slavic countries comes from assimilated other people......

btw. compare this pictures

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png

and while I2a2 shows clear correlation with early Slav mention in history, same is not clear for R1a as its hotspots are on other places and its gradient doesnot seem to show anything alike shape of spread of early Slavs...

anyway, back to old Serbs... at the moment there is no evidence of existence of such a thing that we can call old Serbs

there are Serbs of now who carry set of different haplogroups: I2a2, E-V13,R1a, various J, R1b....

and we can talk of proto-Serbs who have supposedly moved to Balkan from land of Boika (likely Bohemia named after Celtic Boii) somewhere in 7th century....

relating Serb name to anything further in past is very difficult... there is Serboi tribe in Caspian mountains around 1st century AD, and there is note of Seneca about Serians in that area, around Danube, in northwest China, and on Red sea... but we cannot be sure his Serians are in fact proto-Serbs...and while we can see haplogroup I (we still not known whether it is I2a2) in Asia matching arc of Serians from India to China there is no haplogroup I around Red sea...

hope you are not one of the people who would try to respond to this by quoting quasi-historian Deretic because that guy is everything but credible historian... his theories of Serbs everywhere are delusional....

so it is better to skip using word old Serbs until we can be sure whether there is such thing and what would that notion encompass

We can say that originally Serbs are no Slavs (I haplogroup is different than R1a haplogroup), but this can be a quick conclusion, without delving into the matter, really big question is whether old R1a at a time when arriving in Balkan and beyond, may be called Slavs?

According to Klyosov's data R1a must have spread from Balkan to east Europe and Asia.. which means not that that old R1a is Slavic (Slavic is about latest cultural development in that group), but that Scythian, Slavic.. R1a origins from the Balkan core...what was the language and culture of that R1a is completely unknown...probably proto-Indo-European or some language predating it, as this was very long time ago... so to claim it Slavic is a bit funny because Slavic/Germanic/Italic...languages all likely developed later than those times from common proto-indo-european language...

additional thing is, you must realize that languages and cultures are changed quite often.... much more often that people think.....

after hearing that argument in my discussion with someone else several years ago, I keep reminding people on that by using latin language as an example...
2500 years before present it was spoken only around little village called Rome, and now languages derived from it are spoken in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Romania, latin America...

 

[Garrick]

From what we currently know from history there is no such a thing as old Serbs that you can relate to ancient R1a of Balkans...if these R1a can be related to any historic nation of the region than it would be more logical to relate it to ancient Macedonians, as Greek Macedonia is hotspot of R1a on central and east Balkans

btw. it is very strange that Serbia despite supposed massive settlements of Slavs have only low frequencies of R1a and now it seems that even those are mostly native... so, something does not fit there... perhaps original Slavs were very I2a2 dominant which justifies Jordanes callling them Veneti race, while R1a in Slavic countries comes from assimilated other people......

btw. compare this pictureshttp://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png

and while I2a2 shows clear correlation with early Slav mention in history, same is not clear for R1a as its hotspots are on other places and its gradient doesnot seem to show anything alike shape of spread of early

anyway, back to old Serbs... at the moment there is no evidence of existence of such a thing that we can call old Serbs

there are Serbs of now who carry set of different haplogroups: I2a2, E-V13,R1a, various J, R1b....

and we can talk of proto-Serbs who have supposedly moved to Balkan from land of Boika (likely Bohemia named after Celtic Boii) somewhere in 7th century....

relating Serb name to anything further in past is very difficult... there is Serboi tribe in Caspian mountains around 1st century AD, and there is note of Seneca about Serians in that area, around Danube, in northwest China, and on Red sea... but we cannot be sure his Serians are in fact proto-Serbs...and while we can see haplogroup I (we still not known whether it is I2a2) in Asia matching arc of Serians from India to China there is no haplogroup I around Red sea...

hope you are not one of the people who would try to respond to this by quoting quasi-historian Deretic because that guy is everything but credible historian... his theories of Serbs everywhere are delusional....

so it is better to skip using word old Serbs until we can be sure whether there is such thing and what would that notion encompass



According to Klyosov's data R1a must have spread from Balkan to east Europe and Asia.. which means not that that old R1a is Slavic (Slavic is about latest cultural development in that group), but that Scythian, Slavic.. R1a origins from the Balkan core...what was the language and culture of that R1a is completely unknown...probably proto-Indo-European or some language predating it, as this was very long time ago... so to claim it Slavic is a bit funny because Slavic/Germanic/Italic...languages all likely developed later than those times from common proto-indo-european language...

additional thing is, you must realize that languages and cultures are changed quite often.... much more often that people think.....

after hearing that argument in my discussion with someone else several years ago, I keep reminding people on that by using latin language as an example...
2500 years before present it was spoken only around little village called Rome, and now languages derived from it are spoken in Italy, France, Spain, Portugal, Romania, latin America...

how yes no
The word Serb is very very old, term can be found throughout Europe and Asia, including India.

There is no agreement what the term in an I old language could exact mean, it is mentioned: a human, a cousin, alive, strong, a guardian, etc.

But that's not what I want to make a point.

We still do not know in the Balkans in the past that haplogroup belonged to the tribes and languages that are spoken.

For example we might assume that certain southern Illyrian tribes were haplogroup E1b1b (and maybe it is possible trace the connection with today's Albanians), but also part of the ancient Greeks belonged to this haplogroup, probably part of the Thracians, and we do not know whether and to what extent holders of these haplogroups were Dacians.

E1b1b haplogroup originated from Africa (Ethiopia/Somalia), and J haplogroup originated from Middle East.

But no one can accept the Albanian claim that all the Illyrians were E1b1b ie. descendants of today's Albanian, because it does not confirm today's testing haplogroups, and the question is generally whether the Illyrian people can be considered as coherent, or it is a set of tribes of different origin, as we see today's Y DNA tests.

For example Triballi, Moesi, Scordisci, Liburni, Breuci, Autariatae, Sardeati... and many other tribes may be associated with the I, I2 haplogroup, i.e. old Serbs.

According Wiik (2008) the first inhabitants of Balkan were I carriers, who came on Balkan from Anatolia 25000 ago, I carriers is often referred to as Old Europeans.

When early farmers (the carriers E and J haplogroup) came on Balkan from Middle East 10000 years ago they found a population that has long already been there.

Early farmers were probably pushed the old I carriers in the south and south-west but but not in other parts of Balkan.

I carriers (ancestors of Old Serbs), are spread to the north and north-east, also.

However, the situation is more complex, because about 10000 years, Indo Europeans, carriers R1a haplogroup, came in Balkan from the north from Euroasia, and maybe carriers R1b haplogroup (or later).

That is why historians, linguists and others very difficult to manage, the Balkan was an area where the tribes were very different backgrounds.

Only researching Y DNA of remains of tribesman can determine exactly which tribe belonged to a particular haplogroup and when, so we can find which the tribes belonged to Old Serbs, Greeks, Romanians and other Balkan people.

 

[Bogdan]

Thing about the R1a and I2a is id say theyre both reconized as beign "slavic" haplogroups and are found in relatively large frequencies in almost all slavic countries but east and west dominate with R1a where for the south its opposite I and then R. Now theory is that R1a came and mixed with the I2a already there forming slavs.... now this invasion might of been violent or not depending if the newcomers had better weapons as is suggested then well they might of started killing the natives and these slavs sought refuge in the mountains or the mountain dwelling oens survived as waging mountain guerrila warfare is a very effective tactic or defense just look to afghanistan now for example. So it might be that these I2a slavs are mostly found in the mountains for example in polish highlands, tatras mountains so forth. In time these people would of have more peacefully assimilated or started living together forming the ethnic identity known as slavs. and that these slavs who might of been more warlike or aggresive, the mountaineers where one sought by byzantines to fight avars in the balkans and hence why the presence of I2a is so prominant. As this haplogroup can really be called south slavic as no one else has it at such large quantites and no other balkan people have them either in such large quantities either... But that's just my theory

 

[Dalmat]

eh... the usual Serb mythomania,i did some comparison of it and it can hold water,because according to it,Serbs well correlate in spread with Gypsies,which is funny because we Croatians usually nickname the Serbs as "Gypsies". (could that just be coincidence?)
There is an old Serb saying:"Srbi svi i svuda" which means "All Serbs are everywhere"
Just like gypsies are.

 

[how yes no 2]

eh... the usual Serb mythomania,i did some comparison of it and it can hold water,because according to it,Serbs well correlate in spread with Gypsies,which is funny because we Croatians usually nickname the Serbs as "Gypsies". (could that just be coincidence?)
There is an old Serb saying:"Srbi svi i svuda" which means "All Serbs are everywhere"
Just like gypsies are.

your words have inspired me to suggest that Y-DNA research should be R-rated... I can imagine that such a restriction would help that frustrated kids who search own worth in nationalistic ideas, do not masturbate on thoughts of own higher worth compared to neighbouring linguistically identical and genetically very similar nations....

 

[Garrick]

your words have inspired me to suggest that Y-DNA research should be R-rated... I can imagine that such a restriction would help that frustrated kids who search own worth in nationalistic ideas, do not masturbate on thoughts of own higher worth compared to neighbouring linguistically identical and genetically very similar nations....

Croats and Serbs is difficult for others to understand.

For example:

Croats are mostly R1a but they tend to present as I using a targeted survey of selected regions and limited samples.

On the other hand there are Serbs who would like to see greater participation of the R1a but I haplogroup is dominantly among the Serbs.

However, there are works where attempts to penetrate the origin on the basis of facts, so Šlaus et al in "Craniometric Relationships among medieval Central European Populations: Implications for Migration and Expansion Croat" point to Poland as a possible country of origin of Croats:

The results of these analyses are fairly consistent
with the report written by the anonymous writer in the
30th chapter of the “De Administrando Imperio” (16).
Principal components analysis suggested that early
medieval Croats were of Slavic origin and shared a
common homeland with early medieval Poles, possibly
in modern Poland and almost certainly in “… an
area north of Bavaria …” from where they migrated to
the east Adriatic coast.


Clearly, text like Dalmat's post are stupid, of course, every effort to someone presents the Serbs or Croats as Gypsies only reflects the his/her frustration because neither the Serbs nor the Croats are Gypsies.

But I am convinced that relations between Serbs and Croats will improve in this century, and people should work together on it and build confidence.